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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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Comments

  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    You'll enjoy the new MB, I'm sure.

    Didn't you have another vehicle besides the fintail? I didn't think the fintail was your daily drive.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Yes, fintail hasn't been a daily driver for many years. Latest modern car was an 02 E55 that I bought in 06.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    that cheered me up: so far the mix is 51% of all sales are manuals for the FR-S and 70% of the BRZs sold are manuals. Yay! :-)

    I do know the only BRZ my Subaru dealer can keep in stock is an automatic - it is white and is gathering dust on the front lot. The guy that sold me my last Subaru tells me the manuals don't stay longer than a couple of days. Now if only Subaru would see the success of the manual in the BRZ and begin to offer a Forester XT with a manual for 2014. I still can't believe they will only offer a CVT (blecch!) with the turbo!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They do have 6/8 simulated steps and paddles to let you choose.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,756
    Well, the Forester decision was based on experience, apparently. I don't remember the numbers on the 2008 model, but I want to say the take rate was sub-five-percent, which is why they nixed the manual option in 2009. So, while me and you might want one, we didn't put our money where are mouths are when it mattered. ;)

    I'm curious at what percent of the manual takes on the BRZ were premium trim level vs. limited.

    The Forester's XT variant only comes in the gussied-up versions, and I'm generally not a big fan of "gussy." :blush:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    A little more proof of manual superiority.

    TOV dyno tested an Accord Sport with CVT. It is rated at 189 hp and put down 159 on the dyno.
    They also test an Accord EX with the 6MT. It is rated at 185 hp and put down 179 on the dyno.

    No wonder the 6MT I4 hit 60 in 6.6 seconds. Not only does it look like the engine is underrated, but it is also much more efficient at getting power down with the 6MT.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    179 at the wheels is 200 plus gross, wow.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The CVT MIGHT be better than a similar but discontinued Accord 6 speed A/T slush box.

    Parasitic losses are basically unchanged (min of 11.2% to more like 13.3% ) and still HIGH OVER the 6 speed M/T, despite the more "efficient" CVT. My further take is that the "higher" power output still doesn't help too much.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    CVT's are terrible 99-cent type transmissions.

    I just found out my friends 2007 Nissan with the generic 4-banger motor is going to soon be on its third CVT transmission at about 65,000 miles. The first one didn't last longer than 24 hours, as they replaced his engine and transmission on day 2.

    Now again he needs to get it checked as it's making all kinds of noises. He also was told to replace his AC, and recently replaced his CAT converter.

    He has paid for the AC ($1,400), but Nissan has the long emissions warranty thanks to CA, so that was covered (saved him about $1,400 too), Nissan obviously paid for the 2nd engine and 2nd transmission replacement when the car was new, and he tells me Nissan decided to warranty these 99 cent disposable CVT transmissions to 10 years or 120,000 miles. So it looks like he'll be covered again.

    I told him Nissan has no quality control, his car has lost the equivalent of its brain, heart, lungs, and penis in less than 66,000 miles! Although they've been lucky and had no issues until recently, these 4 HUGE issues are like having 4 different stage 4 cancer diagnosis'.

    Even the Neon's ancient 3-speed was good for about 60K miles, the Nissan CVT is averaging 32,500 miles per unit for my friend, who doesn't drive it hard, and only has the meager and weak 2.5 4 cylinder engine.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I doubt that's typical, but that really sucks!
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    edited May 2013
    that I ever heard of was one described in Popular Science back in about '59 or '60. The issue they cited at the time was longevity, especially if significant power was involved. For a lawn mower, they were perfect.

    I'm going to guess that the 50 year haitus from then until CVTs became production pieces on actual cars had to do with figuring out how to keep all those variable components and the belts (or whatever) from packing it in. Perhaps there is more work to do.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I think their biggest (non-car) use is on snowmachines. Something you really don't want to break down on you.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    for the record, it was an amateur mistake of mine to not mention it was an Altima Nissan model, 2007 model year.

    I'm sure it's not typical, but I bet given the voluntary warranty extension it isn't uncommon either.

    As to how an engine could die on the 2nd day........ I have no idea.

    I told him he was lucky. My Neon had to be towed to the dealer on the 2nd day (first morning we had it), and from now on, if that ever happens again, it's staying at the dealer as a lemon law claim :lemon: .

    I've learned my lesson; a bad start often is a signal for worse things to come.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    how about let's talk about what is our favorite/least-favorite non-manual transmission.

    FAVORITE NON-MANUAL TRANSMISSION: GM 4L-80E slushbox, with 3rd & 4th gear TCC/lockup
    MOST DESPISED NON-MANUAL TRANSMISSION: any CVT . (minicooper in particular).

    let's invite one of the 7 people in USA driving a porsche cayenne with manual shift!
    I want one of those, but lately i keep not winning the lottery .
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I've only driven 3 CVTs for any length of time---a Dodge Caliber, an Audi A4 and a Mini Cooper, and I hated all three equally. Not a big database, but so far, I am not impressed.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    edited May 2013
    It's the Prius syndrome, as I call it. The main reason people get such high MPG with it is because of the video game type interface that trains you to drive like an 85 year old man to eek out every last drop of economy. You can get caught behind one at a stoplight and have to switch lanes as soon as the traffic starts to move. You can always count on one to be going 5 mph under the speed limit. And it's always one that's holding up everyone in the carpool lane.

    Note - that since most Japanese speedometers read 2-5% slow so as to have an acceptable margin to not get sued over it if you run one size larger tires/snow tires/etc, the driver is always going exactly 63 Mph in the fast lane.

    The CVT merely takes it another step. Unless you absolutely put the accelerator flat to the floor like a switch, it goes into "I'll drive like my computers tell me to and you'll enjoy it" mode. Great MPG. Utterly soulless puttering around town.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I've driven the CVT in the A4 and the Nissan Murano, and ridden in the late model Altima.

    I hated the CVT in all 3. Just didn't like the way it felt slow and false.

    My friend said he thought the cool "push button" start in the Altima was made possible by the CVT, which is why he got it.

    Funny the things that will sell CVT.

    Obviously, he's not a car guy.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the only way I'd buy a car with an automatic transmission, of ANY type, would be:

    1. My left leg became useless

    2. If they'd put a fake clutch pedal in for me to play with. :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Best automatic was in a Porsche Boxster that my buddy owns. That thing reads minds.

    Best manual was my NA Miata. Liquid smooth. Literally. The shift turret is submerged in gear oil, not just greased.

    For me nothing comes close to either of those.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    2. If they'd put a fake clutch pedal in for me to play with.

    Interesting idea. I suppose it could be done, and it wouldn't even have to be fake. Instead of shift paddles they could put a third pedal down. As in the Audi's, you can use the stick to push up to shift up, or push down to shift down, only when you put it in manual mode, the pedal could be required.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Don't forget the sound effects - that stuff is already getting piped in to the passenger compartment so it'd be easy to add the sounds of gears stripping, the engine stalling and over-revving in neutral when you miss a shift. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Essentially that's how a Model T Ford works!
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited May 2013
    1. My left leg became useless

    2. If they'd put a fake clutch pedal in for me to play with.


    So be honest, is there a number 3, which would go something like the following?
    "3. If the model I had chosen, indeed the TYPE OF CAR I had chosen, was not available from any manufacturer with a manual."

    That is increasingly going to be the choice those of us die-hards are forced into, and I wrestle with it myself. What happens when the only choices left with an available manual are bottom-of-the-line compact cars and sport-intentioned models? Do we forego the minivan if we need one, or the crossover, or the midsize sedan? Less than ten years from now, there won't be any offerings in those 3 categories with a manual, I will bet. Even now there are precious few, ESPECIALLY if you also want AWD.

    In my current wrestling with myself, I have reached an impasse where I know for sure that if forced into an automatic, I would never buy a CVT even if it meant switching type of car (so all new Subarus are out once the manuals are gone, more's the pity). And I am wholly unimpressed with these DCTs that don't creep properly in traffic and can be a pain in the neck to use. How can it be that with all the "advances" in automatics over the years, I find myself in the year 2013 thinking that traditional TC automatics are the best of the bad among the automatics available?

    But for now, the kinds of cars I want ARE still available with a manual, so my personal wrestling match isn't relevant just yet, thank goodness.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Perhaps by that time, technology could project a hologram of a clutch pedal for us to push and a fake gearshift lever---sort of like those suction cup steering wheels they give to kids. :P
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    If not, we don't need technology to provide us with another viable alternative: used cars. :sick:

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Porsche Sportomatic

    I remember driving the old Porsche Sportomatic, and I really liked it--it was more like a manual and less like an automatic.

    They are quite rare to see today, as most got converted to 5-speed manuals.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited May 2013
    ya never get the love of it outta yer system. I have my eye on this car right now. If I find out it has an automatic I'll withdraw my interest.

    image
    1969 VW Bug

    For some reason I feel compelled ta get an old Bug with a standard transmission. I can't seem ta shake it so I'm thinkin' I'm gonna have ta just satisfy my need and buy one. Anyone have any VW Bug warnings or experience I should know about before I plunk down big American bills on one?

    I think this is the one if it's a stick. I will buy a great stereo for it and add to this beatiful Bug. Cool one, huh? If this car turns out ta be an automatic I don't want it, though. The guy listing says it costs $1,800 and it has Porsche wheels and pipes and that it runs excellent. It might have high miles but this looks ta be the one. It's about 400 miles west of me in south-central Arizona. I'll call the dude sometime mid-week here coming up ta see if he'll take payments. That might be a deal-breaker-he might not wanna take payments. If he won't that'll kill the deal for me. Not him. The thing is, in this economy, not everyone has that much money saved ta buy the car outright. So he might take a payment sale from me. We'll see. I'm becoming beseiged with desire for a stick VW Bug! :shades:

    I'll pick a great stereo for it - I'm so addicted ta great rock and roll that a putrid stereo will only annoy me and tick me off. A strong, competent stereo will only work for this rig.

    Anyone else dig this car? Porsche wheels and pipes...runs excellent the ad says. For only $1,800? Am I missing something big and large here? This is the one dudes. I have 5 days off coming up starting Wednesday. If this guy takes payments I'm now starting ta strongly consider purchasing this little pup. Any of y'all have any thoughts? Warnings about old Bugs that I should consider strongly?

    image
    Sweet. Don't ya love how people can totally strip a car of things like bumpers on old imports and nobody even bats an eyelash? I mean, I wouldn't even start ta be afraid of driving this rig, anywhere, on the freeways or downtowns of New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, etc. Know what I mean, Jean? The bumpers mean nothing to me!!

    The guy doesn't show any interior pics so the interior might not look very good. I can cover the seats with seatcovers from Autozone, huh? Also, I don't know if the buttons and lights and electricals work well, he doesn't mention the problems in the ad. I'll have ta call him and get back ta ya'all. But mention anything you can think of in here...be critical. I'd like ta read your thoughts on this thing. I've heard that old VW's have water-cooled engines and they're easy ta work on. Sounds fine ta me. I'm not afraid ta dirty my hands...I've done oil changes, filters, points, plugs, radiators, starters, batteries, etc. I kind of miss working on rigs, actually. So that doesn't frighten me off. Actually, Alamogordo and Las Cruces, NM, have older dudes like me that like to and can work on old VW's. So that won't eliminate the possibility for me. This guy listing this bug for under $2,000 has opened up the strong desire in me to buy one of these old Bug's. He might really need ta sell. But I'd pay him the full $1,800. The car is worth it.

    For those of you not aware, these cars should fetch closer to $3,000 for this year and shape. At least. But he says it runs excellent. So I'll have ta drive the 400 miles west and take my son ta drive the '08 Lancer GTS back if I decide ta pull the trigger. Stay tuned. This won't happen until at least Wednesday, May 22nd, 2013, dudes.

    Oh, those goofy men and their toys. This wouldn't be a needed rig, it would completely be a toy for iluv. Silly, huh? Talk me out of it.

    Remember, an automatic will automatically kill the deal for me. So this love affair might be over just as soon as its started. :blush: Some of you might not like the carbon grey paint job. Just ta let ya know...that doesn't even start ta stop the love for me! :D I'll paint this thing cherry red or spark plug orange myself.

    Spark plug orange! Metallic orange? That's it! The body looks straight, don't it?!!! I'll tart paint it me-own silly self. Like steve sez, you need a project ta work on, dont ya?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,368
    Old VW Bugs have air-cooled motors. They are considered easy to work on but I'd worry about how they hold up in the hot climate of the Southwest. If the engine is hopped up, you'd better have some sort of oil-cooler for the engine and transmission. If it's not hopped up the car will be hideously slow and the handling is frankly, crap.

    The transmission is actually a weak spot on the Beatle, second gear syncros go quickly and the linkages cause problems and are pretty sloppy giving shifts a loose rubbery feel. I consider it the worst manual transmission I've ever driven (the best--a tie between the Jag E-type S2 and the Fiat 124 Sports).

    All of the VW's faults can be remedied but if you're looking for a great stick-shift experience on the cheap, I'd look for an MG-Midget/A-H Sprite mkII, they're even easier to work on and they'd look good in Orange. ;)

    .

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    thank you for your feedback on the Bug. That is exactly what I'm looking for at this point - if the cool, ghost-grey '69 VW Bug is going to have weak points, and I know it will, I want ta know about them now. So I can talk myself out of it and avoid the arguments with my wife, who is taking the side of Suse Ormon (albeit the financially smarter side) and arguing against the idea.

    As for tranny's, I drove our 2001 Kia Sportage 4X4 for years. That small SUV is also used by the South Korean military, and it is good in low gears but "rubbery" or just plain rough as all get out between 1st and 2nd. IIRC the car I learned ta drive stick on, Dad '66 VW Fastback, had this synchro problem, too. I have driven so many sticks that I feel I'm ready for any challenge. Oh, and about driving slow, ever since I wrecked Dad's '66 VW Fastback (the lightest, coolest car I've ever driven...I do love my '08 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS with its automatic CVT "chirp-the-tire" getup, but the car is heavy. The Lancer GTS does handle like a dream and is my favorite bodystyle anywhere on the planet) I have driven much like a careful old man retiree (I'm not, I'm still working fulltime) off ta golf. And not get smutted out on the highway. So a slow driver like the Bug won't bother me at all. I'll be right at home with it.

    I'll have the best of both worlds, a great handling car, the '08 Lancer GTS, and a slow but steady '69 VW Bug. It's true I won't like the 2nd gear synchro going out early at all. I don't like unexpected side-a-the-road experiences much at all. If an after-market company has come up with an aid ta get the shifting linkage over carefully and neatly into 2nd (it's probably out there somewhere...Las Cruces has some VW specialists I could take it to if the current owner has nothing on that for me) I will definitely look in to getting that tranny update.

    I had a '65 Ford Mustang with a 200-6cyl. 3-speed stick and there was a light synchro problem with that car that I had to get used to. Synchro's would break prematurely. Eventually found an aftermarket fix to beef it up and it didn't happen again. Though the tranny eventually broke to where I couldn't get out of 1st gear in the thing. I limped into a used car place in Tacoma, WA, and traded the freshly painted red '65 Mustang stuck in 1st gear in on a 1970 Chevy Suburban that ran well but got about 12 mpg. It was huge, heavy and an automatic that worked great, just had so much weight to move with its 350 V8 engine I couldn't justify keeping it long.

    Traded it for a '66 Ford Fairlane that we eventually named old Smokey 'cause the engine would smoke - on the go and at idle. Sold that car and bought Dad's '73 Plymouth Gold Duster and that was like driving a Cadillac. :)

    This deal will probably never happen for a variety of reasons, but I get an occasional fire lit under me ta get another rig. We'll see. An old Morris Minor with a stick, perhaps? Who has Morris Minor's for sale in the U.S. MG Midget's? Don't they have electrical problems like the Triumph TR-4's and TR-250's and MGB Roadster's and...Fiat 500's? Anyone know of an ancient Fiat 500 available in the desert southwest?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • ohenryxohenryx Member Posts: 285
    I see a couple of major problems with this, right off the top of my head. Number one, and by far the biggest problem, is this "Must take payments". No individual in his/her right mind is ever going to sell a used car to a stranger and "take payments". It simply ain't gonna happen, not in this life.

    Number two, air conditioning. Very, very few Bugs of that vintage were equipped with AC, and in your part of the world, it really is a necessity.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    I don't know a ton about Beetles, but I know when that car was built automatic wasn't really ever offered at all - there was an "autostick" system (semi-automatic - you shift with no clutch), but they are fairly rare. Chances are, it is a stick.

    Beetles have pros and cons. Pros - cheap, simple, lots of parts, iconic, good build quality. Cons - slow, not refined, low prices when finished (if you want to sell), can rust. My mother had a 1970 Beetle - this was many years before I was born. Within a year or two, my dad blew it up, and replaced the engine with one from a Porsche 912. It was not 100% reliable from that point, and a gargantuan white on white 70s T-Bird would end up filling its spot (which wasn't 100% reliable either, but was beloved no less).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2013
    VW engines like to go KABOOM. They have no oil filter, and no oil cooler, and you are operating in the desert. So there you go. Either this VW engine has to be beefed up with an oil cooler and external oil filter of some sort, or you're driving around with a hand grenade with a loose pin. And at high altitudes going over desert passes, well....it's not a pretty picture.

    Correct on the auto-stick. They did make them with a vacuum operated clutchy-thingie (sorry if that was too technical :P ) but I doubt you'll see one.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    edited May 2013
    Anyone have any VW Bug warnings or experience I should know about before I plunk down big American bills on one?

    I drove a '66 Bug to 230K miles; my brother had a 1970 and my friend had a '71.

    The Bugs are very durable cars with a lot of positives. They are easy and cheap to work on - dead simple cars. They are as honest and basic as you can get. You don't have to worry about radiators, water pumps, coolant, etc. Contrary to other posts, I disagree that they have weak transmissions (when driven properly). Mine went to 235K with no transmission work. Change the oil in it (the transmission) every 30K miles.

    By today's standards the old Bugs are crude and pretty uncomfortable. They're underpowered, noisy, and don't handle very well. But they're fun to drive and there's no replacing that air-cooled engine sound.

    They're prone to burning valves, so make sure you have the valves checked/adjusted every 3-6K miles (it's really easy to do yourself). Cylinder #3 in particular runs hot as it's behind the oil cooler so the air hitting this cylinder is warmer than the others. If the valve tappets don't have enough clearance (.15mm as I recall), then the valves won't seat long enough to transfer their heat to the cylinder head, and they'll get hot and warp, or worse, break off. So keeping that clearance adequate keeps the valves cooled properly.

    There are no automatics, just a fairly rare auto stick that you definitely don't want. They also almost never have air conditioning. The vent windows are your air conditioning. :P

    The manifold heater works well in moderately cool climates but is inadequate in snowy temperatures. Wear a heavy coat while driving.

    You can easily shift without the clutch if you know what you're doing, too.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If you keep plugging engines into old VW bugs (pretty inexpensive, even today), they can run a long time.

    I agree, the transaxles are pretty durable as long as they don't leak!

    But a VW engine, even very well rebuilt, is maybe good for 60,000 tops.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited May 2013
    here.

    1) They're prone to burning valves, so make sure you have the valves checked/adjusted every 3-6K miles (it's really easy to do yourself). Cylinder #3 in particular runs hot as it's behind the oil cooler so the air hitting this cylinder is warmer than the others. If the valve tappets don't have enough clearance (.15mm as I recall), then the valves won't seat long enough to transfer their heat to the cylinder head, and they'll get hot and warp, or worse, break off. So keeping that clearance adequate keeps the valves cooled properly.

    OK, I can deal with the valve adjustment every 3-6,000 miles. I'll just learn how to do it (the internet can probably help here with a pictorial guide of some sort, or I'll just buy a manual that describes how to do this procedure) and keep to it with a smartphone app that reminds me when it's due again. I've got that one covered, with some learning and doing.

    2) The lack of an air conditioner. :cry:

    This one might be a bigger problem. It gets pretty hot over here in southern New Mexico. This one is worthy of asking the owner in the small town near Tucson and seeing how they deal with it. Might be a deal-killer there.

    Oh, about the payments. I get it that people don't like to accept payments. It doesn't hurt to ask, does it? :D

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    But a VW engine, even very well rebuilt, is maybe good for 60,000 tops.

    I got 106K on the first one, and another 125K on the second one (which was still running well when I sold it).
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    OK, I can deal with the valve adjustment every 3-6,000 miles. I'll just learn how to do it (the internet can probably help here with a pictorial guide of some sort, or I'll just buy a manual that describes how to do this procedure)

    You just check the valves with a feeler gauge when the engine is stone cold. I found that I rarely needed to adjust the actual setting, so it pretty much was a "pop off the cylinder head covers and check the clearance" operation. Do it whenever you change the oil.

    Yes, the AC situation may be the biggest issue in a hot climate.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2013
    Even as ham fisted as I am, I learned to do the valves on my old Bugs. First got to Alaska in '73 in a Bug that was pretty new. Otherwise I drove them in Mississippi and the Bugs were subjected to a nice moist heat. Only engine issue was a head gasket in a '69 Bus failing.

    They still ain't safe. Sure were fun to drive though. :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited May 2013
    106K? Consider yourself among the blessed then. :)

    I picked 60K as the sweet spot in the bell curve. Some will do better, some worse.

    I've busted apart a LOT of VW engines in days past, and compared to a Porsche engine, they are really cheaply made. It's rather amazing they do as well as they do.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Bob Pease was a well known analog design engineer who was killed in a car accident in 2011. Bob was famous for his tales about his '69 Beetle that was his daily driver. If you Google "Bob Pease Volkswagon" you'll get a fair number of hits on this topic.

    Bob Pease
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    thanks for that link. I'll check it out.

    You just check the valves with a feeler gauge when the engine is stone cold. I found that I rarely needed to adjust the actual setting, so it pretty much was a "pop off the cylinder head covers and check the clearance" operation. Do it whenever you change the oil.

    Yes, the AC situation may be the biggest issue in a hot climate.


    Sounds like the valves will be easier than I thought. Good. I will call and talk to the owner about driving the thing in suburban Tucson w/o air conditioning. I may be all right w/o it.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Sounds like the valves will be easier than I thought.

    It's really very easy. If any one valve isn't right, you just need a small box wrench (I think 13mm but might be wrong on that) and a screwdriver. Loosen the nut, adjust the clearance with the screwdriver, and tighten the nut back again.

    I found that once I was regularly doing it, I almost never needed to adjust them again, just check them. The key point is that a bit too much gap is ok, but not too little gap.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If you can count to four, you can do it! :P
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not a great endorsement of the safety of a VW Bug, however. :(
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Never mind the future, can you name a full size minivan with stick for NA market in the last 10 years? That boat sailed a while ago. Easily 95% of soccer moms won't buy a stick, so none is offered. Only stick minivans I know are micros - Kia Rondo and Mazda5.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    the old beetle floorboards rust out, and the battery falls out onto the pavement and drags... car will run fine in this condition but watch where you put your feet.
    maybe that doesn't happen in the desert/baja beetle, but don't count on it.

    as for air conditioning in a 1969 beetle, bwaaaahahahahahahahahaha.
    heat is going to be almost as laughable and imaginary as A/C. the engineers seem to have relied on the placebo effect for heat... (the heating duct/rail/gaps would rust out, along with the floorboards.)

    as for a price of $1800, consider that my pops 1965 beetle was $1653 new (with optional rear seatbelts)... so $1800 for that 1969 is close to the original factory list price.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited May 2013
    And even the Mazda5 is now going the same way other manufacturers, most recently Subaru (much to my disappointment) have gone with all their models: you can only get the stick in the cheapo version. Want a moonroof, navigation, or leather? Then you can forget getting a stick. :-(

    It's a big let-down that Mazda is now following this same old pattern, but I should have known it was in the cards when Honda began removing the stick shift option first from the Accord, and then from the Civic (only LX and SI 4-doors can still be had with a stick), and even that is only in name - go into the dealer and ask to see the stick-shift selection and they will just fall over laughing. Tell them you will wait while it is ordered and they will sober up and talk about how it is an "unavailable model".

    As for Rondo, do they still even make that? I haven't seen a new one in ages, I think it is gone. You can still get a Soul with a stick, but again only in the cheapo version.

    Actually, when I wrote that comment I was thinking more of the crossover selection with a manual and AWD, which I BELIEVE (but don't quote me) is down to the Forester (cheapo model only, but not the turbo, oh no we wouldn't want to let you have the turbo with a stick shift) and the Porsche Cayenne. And that is in a market where crossovers are challenging the midsize sedans for biggest market sales segment, and almost 50% of all the sales are AWD. How many dozens of different models are there available? And only those two fringe models available with a stick. You talk about the minivan boat sailing a while ago but the AWD crossover boat is sailing as we speak. :sick:

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited May 2013
    as for a price of $1800, consider that my pops 1965 beetle was $1653 new (with optional rear seatbelts)... so $1800 for that 1969 is close to the original factory list price.

    I agree, elias, $1,800 is a decent price. Of course, when you buy a used rig, you really are rolling the dice, anyway.

    The issue of adjusting the valves is not even an issue anymore. Nuff said. I think I'll like doing that little happy, happy Bug boy task. ;)

    The fact I won't have air conditioning will be lost in all the fun I'll have shifting and driving the little Bug. All Alamodordan's have ta do is drive 15-20 miles east up into the Sacramento Mountains, the southernmost tip of the Rockies, to escape Alamogordo's hot and heavy weather. So I'll just Flintstone-pedal my Bug up the hill if I need "air conditioning" in a pinch! And the fact that it doesn't have very good handling dynamics is not an issue, either. I won't need good handling. The VW Bug was designed as a "car for the people," the German Model T. Right? Not a rally racer.

    There's just something about the small dashboard, the view of the curved nose of the car from the driver's seat, the sheer elementary-ness of the entire design that intrigues me. I was given a business card from a co-worker today of someone who works on restoring VW Bugs today. The old VW Bugs. So I'm still investigating things. Not in a rush about getting that particular Bug I posted the picture of (or, IOW's, my wife won't allow this), but I want to at least chat with the owner of it. Remember, we have had the beautiful sedan below in Rally Red for over 6 years now, and my wife was opposed to that, too.

    image
    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

    Stay tuned fellow car nuts. This is what it's all about! Only a silly car enthusiast would want to buy a VW Bug from the 1960's.

    At least one person selling their 60's Bug has installed airbags in their Beetle, though I'm not sure they would deploy properly in a crash. Still, visions of horrible accidents are not what normal people have when they think of a car purchase. If that's what I did in my mind whenever danger approached while driving I would abhor driving. I don't abhor driving, I absolutely love driving, and although I've never driven a VW Bug I think I'll absolutely love driving one! :P Perfect rig for a man that drives like a man about 30 years older than he is, eh?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am not sure what this means, but $1800 is what I bought a used 1970 VW Beetle with 10,000 miles in 1971 (42 years ago). I ran it for app 250,000 miles. Long about 110,000 miles, I was thinking that the clutch needed changing (it really didn't) and ran it another 140k.

    At that time, I was in the service and the owner of the shop knew the old clutch could probably be put back in, but if it is already apart, why not put in a new one? I guess he knew money was tight, so he said if I bought the parts from him retail, he'd finish the job for a case or so of Heineken and pizzas.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    amen, brother, if you were anywhere near Alamogordo, NM, now I'd feel like taking you out for pizza and Margarita's! That's what someone wants to hear 'bout now, not goofy scary negative stories designed to worry and pester a fellow car nut (I...I mean car man).

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

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