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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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Comments

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Actually Honda is not killing off the stick as fast as was implied. They actually have more MT models of Accord available for '13 than for '12 - 3 vs 2.

    They do carry Accord sticks in stock. I bought mine off the dealer lot - no special order or laughing. EX with sunroof, backup cam, keyless entry and start, mirror cam, blutooth, remote window roll down etc. etc. So not that basic. No leather though, but maybe they will add that for the refresh.
  • slorenzenslorenzen Member Posts: 694
    There are several things you can to do IMMENSELY improve the handling for not much money, as well as improve the engine.

    Buy a '71 or newer bug. They have independent rear axle, a better oil cooler(called a "doghouse") and dual-port heads for better breathing. Another thing to give you an instant 1500 RPM of useable power is change out the stock 1.1 ratio rocker arms for a 1.4 ratio.

    I did this to a "slightly punched" motor, and my useable RPM's went from 4.5 K to 6K.

    Also, in that hot environment, install a higher capacity oil pump.

    By using the doghouse cooler and the high-capacity oil pump, the engine will run cooler than if you had the external cooler. You are reading the words of someone who tried 5 aftermarket coolers and filter setups, before realizing the stock doghouse was best for cooling.

    If you are mostly driving on the street, install a rear anti-sway bar(3/8" is all you need) and swap out the front bar from 3/8ths to 3/4 inch.

    With my bug, putting out 125HP bench tested, and the handling mods, I used to give my friend in his 2002 tii ABSOLUTE FITS 'cause I could power-drift around him on a freeway cloverleaf... :shades:
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    hey, you're destroying te stereotype of VW Bugs being gutless bombs, stop it! Great ideas from this Edmunds' bunch of car nuts, I knew I could count on you guys! My wife pleaded again with me not to buy one, so here we go again.

    Gonna be a really, really tough sell to her on this idea.

    "Go ahead and hit me with it, Mary! What kind of chance do I have with you?" ~ Jim Carrey, 'Dumb and Dumber'

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    it's not a stereotype though------what he has done is all the right stuff to correct many of the car's original deficiences.....lack of power and squirrely handling. What he's telling you is that you don't have to be satisfied with the original as it is.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    if you were anywhere near Alamogordo, NM, now I'd feel like taking you out for pizza and Margarita's! That's what someone wants to hear 'bout now, not goofy scary negative stories designed to worry and pester a fellow car nut (I...I mean car man).

    I learned all about working on cars due to my '66 Bug. I learned how to change oil, adjust valves, points, timing. I learned how to change a clutch (you have to remove the engine--but in the Bug that's pretty easy and you don't need much other than some basic tools, a jack, and a collapsed cardboard box to do that, either. The only engines I've ever rebuilt were VW Bug engines, too.

    Ahh, such fond memories.....
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Aside from transaxle work, there's not much on a VW Bug that the amateur mechanic can't do in his driveway.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    I got that. I was just kiddin'. I have a business card of a local here in southern NM who rebuilds them. He would be my most logical contact, especially if I want those updates done. And they sound like they ought ta be done, if for no other reason than to keep up with the traffic flow of the region.

    Way too many hicks in pickups around here that would love ta run my Beetle-bug right into the dusty ground en route ta their destination. :surprise:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    New version of Rondo just came out. Still has a stick option but base only as you repeatedly complain. Broader options for both models in EDM and Asian markets. I'd love one of the many AWD micro vans the asian markets get. Know two people here with the Diesel stick AWD Mitsu Mivec, but they are quite old and RHD as they are Japanese cast-offs. Modern version of that would be sweet. Think AWD off-road version of the M5 - uber fun vehicle that can still haul the kids.
  • bob4021bob4021 Member Posts: 1
    I´ve always liked using a stick shift. Never cared much for automatics. Kinda takes the fun out of driving.

    image
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    edited May 2013
    Brain fart...just noticed I wrote Mivec, meant Mitsu Delica.
    AND just to hammer home the annoying reality, the latest version comes with CVT as the only transmission option.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,759
    edited June 2013
    le sigh. If I drive mine like I stole it, no problems. Otherwise, I hate the clutch on that car.... it's just too touchy. There's no "feel" to it.... just disengaged to *Bam!* engaged. If it had a diesel engine, that'd probably be a nice combo. :P
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Just noticed that a Honda dealer near me has 5 Accords in stock with the stick shift. Nice to see that they are out there.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    I seem to have a similar issue with my Toyota Matrix, I still stall it from time to time if I try to take off gently and smoothly, I am not sure it engages in the same spot all the time even ( I think I have read other comments about this too). It works properly with no slippage, but you have to give it more throttle to make sure it doesn't stall when you start off.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,759
    Yeah, I think it's strange. Our 2007 Outback was the same way, so I think it's just a "feature" of the clutch. I haven't had that problem on any other manual I've driven. Some are more "feelable" than others, but even low-torque setups like my Fiesta are real easy to get in touch with. I just haven't ever found that mild-mannered equilibrium with the Forester.

    I can sure persuade it to move with ferocity, though. It impresses me how quickly that car can move (which annoys my wife to no end, given that she drives it in "little old lady mode").
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "I just bought a new 2014 Mustang V6 Coupe and it's running fine except at toll booths it won't shift into 1st or 2nd." (link)

    Only happens at toll booths, home of all those EZ transponders - maybe some tin foil lining the hood and dashboard would fix it?
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    edited June 2013
    possibly try a double-clutch to get it into 1st after stopping:

    move gear shift to neutral.
    fully release clutch pedal.
    depress again the clutch pedal
    move gear shift to 1st
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    here in 100° Alamogordo. I found a '67 VW Bug in white here west of town at a small, private seller of automobiles on Highway 70 that leads to Las Cruces, NM. It is a 4-speed stick and its body is straight, newer tire and wheels that just make the car look great.

    He wants $3,000 for it and from my research, if its mechanically sound, that is a very fair price for it. Here we go!

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yee Haw, how's the AC in it?

    /snicker :)

    Seriously, how is the heat? Looks like we aren't going to get out there this summer as hoped.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited June 2013
    it was 102° today and hot. Yeah, I'll bet the white '67 VW Bug has no valid A/C in it at all. And that is a potential problem or worrysome thing about the car that would have to be addressed. Or not addressed at all and just lived with.

    The last car I owned that didn't have A/C was the 1999 Kia Sephia. But that was when we lived in Burlington, WA, which, as you know steve, rarely exceeds 90° in the hottest part of summer, so, there ya go. My intensive pursuit for my own chunk of automotive history pants on in to the hot, south-central New Mexico summer.

    Santa Fe, NM, is an interesting place, with all its adobe architectural businesses and homes. It forces you in to staring at it for a while, all the different home and business designs that have been implemented over there. Truly a step back in NM history and American SW desert-dwelling existence, and full of tourist-trap sales experiences around every corner. I don't like it enough to pine for a house or rental there for retirement, because prices have rose so high for housing in Santa Fe that it's virtually untouchable for someone who isn't rich to live there as a retiree. There's a way to do it if you are very patient and plan your hunt accordingly, though, I'm pretty sure. I'm just not so sure I care enough about it to embark on that.

    Now down in our neck of the woods Tularosa, about 13 miles north of Alamogordo, looks a lot more do-able and affordable as a retirement destination. Lots of trees all over the town for shade and housing is very affordable. It's on Highway 70 about 35 miles west of Ruidoso. Highway 54/70 both run north in to Tularosa and 54 shoots off to the west towards Carricozo and the Trinity Site, Valley of Fire and San Antonio, NM. Interesting and laid-back area that interests me a lot.

    What's kind of appealing to Santa Fe, NM, though, is that the city of Santa Fe is also very laid back and the people are nice, because they love living in Santa Fe. They see Santa Fe's future are being very, very viable and they love it and want to make the place a better place ta be. So it has an appealing lure to it, sort of like the lure of Seattle's Space Needle, Science Center, Monorail and Pike Place Market. And ferry boats. People there know it's a pretty special place and so are excited to be a part of it and make it even better. Those are the kinds of places you want to live in and be a part of, eh? :blush:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited June 2013
    When I first visited Santa Fe in my 20s, I thought it was brown and dusty and I didn't see the attraction. Now I really like it. The concerts on the "square" are great and we love all the weavings and rugs in the shops and galleries.

    The first time I was out there was in a 4 speed manual transmission.

    Yep, in a Bug. Could have been a '67 or '68 too but never drove a white one. :)
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,370
    If a '67 VW did have aftermarket a/c it would consume about 20 of the available 50HP.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited June 2013
    I think the last fuel-injected Super Beetles could have AC, but even then, it's too much for that little engine---too much load.

    Maybe if you installed a big bore 1800 engine built to a high standard, it could handle a small compressor.

    You have to be realistic about an old VW flat 4. It's a cheap little engine that does not tolerate being overworked.

    Think of it as more of an old motorcycle engine from a Harley or Triumph than as a modern car engine.

    If you "lug" it in 4th gear, you're gonna blow it up.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited June 2013
    in my 1967 VW Bug without A/C. What's weird is I don't think that'll be a problem. Or what I might be saying is I want the car so bad that I can just live with an "ailment" like that just fine. Yeah, taking 20 horses away from a 50-horse motor is too much. But, this one in town is a 1967 and I am now narrowing my search down to only wanting a 1967 VW Bug. :shades:

    I may post a picture of one later that looks like the one in town I'm looking to buy. I don't think it's really any kind of mystery to any of you all what the car looks like, huh? :D

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • slorenzenslorenzen Member Posts: 694
    edited June 2013
    The '67 is indeed an iconic bug.

    HOWEVER, in that heat, I really would recommend looking into either a '71 or later motor, or at least a "doghouse" oil cooler and sheet metal around the motor.

    The doghouse oil cooler is designed to send the heated air away from cylinder #3, which as you may have heard, was a real weak spot for motors before the '71 change(burned the valves for #3).

    Another nice thing about the '71 or later, they came with dual port cylinder heads, which improved breathing immensely.

    Enjoy that '67!

    :P
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    The '67 is indeed an iconic bug.

    HOWEVER, in that heat, I really would recommend looking into either a '71 or later motor, or at least a "doghouse" oil cooler and sheet metal around the motor.

    The doghouse oil cooler is designed to send the heated air away from cylinder #3, which as you may have heard, was a real weak spot for motors before the '71 change(burned the valves for #3).

    Another nice thing about the '71 or later, they came with dual port cylinder heads, which improved breathing immensely.

    Enjoy that '67!


    I will take that into consideration and look for that to be done or possibly it will already have been done on the one I buy. All of this is good learning to get prepared for a possible ownership experience.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "We are not ignorant, Porsche is not ignorant," says Andreas Preuninger, the engineer in charge of the company's GT series cars, with the air of a man who wishes to draw the current subject of conversation to a close.

    We've been discussing the decision not to offer a manual transmission in the new 2014 Porsche 911 GT3. It's a topic of conversation that has consumed most of his waking hours for the past six months and, to be fair to the man, not one on which he can offer much more.

    For reasons of cost, engineering and marketing, Porsche has chosen to build the newest GT3 (the car that perhaps connects the company with hard-core drivers better than any other in its model range) with only two pedals."

    2014 Porsche 911 GT3 First Drive
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    "We are not ignorant, Porsche is not ignorant,"

    Reminds me of something I say at work now and then:

    "It's not that I don't know, it's that I don't care" :shades:

    It's amusing that, as far as I can tell, the sometimes whiny demand for manuals in some cars comes from the US - the most automatic place in the world.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited July 2013
    I think that Porsche guy knows both the political, tea leaves and the realities. Most Porsche owners (given the choice) actually BUY NON manuals (70% plus). If 70% does not meet the definition of majority, I do not know what does. Now if Porsche got commitments for 100% M/T's, they then would be utterly stupid (ignorant in their own words) to offer anything BUT M/T's.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    For reasons of cost, marketing, and engineering? Please, it's cost cost and cost. And laziness. And this from the company with the highest profit margins in the industry.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,197
    Plus, it's a $200K+ car... Even if the cost was $10K extra for the manual, those who wanted it would pay...

    So... I agree... arrogance or ignorance..

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    the GT3 is a FLAGSHIP car for Porsche---it epitomizes the dream of the Porsche enthusiast. It may shift faster, be a techo-marvel and all that, but without 3 pedals, there is something very important that is lost.

    Sort of like building a bi-plane with auto-pilot. Isnt' the whole idea the total challenge of mastering it?
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Your average hard core enthusiast does not buy $200,000 cars. This is a car designed for 60 year old investment bankers who used to be enthusiasts - nothing more.

    Enthusiasts will buy a stick shift Cayman, which is almost affordable.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,197
    Your average hard core enthusiast anyone

    No one buying a $200K car is average.... but, they still care about stick-shifts..

    60 yr old investment bankers are buying 911 Turbos with Tiptronics... (imo)

    GT-3 buyers are more likely to track their cars... and, they care about stick-shifts... I think it's short-sighted to not offer it..

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  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Found you a bug, Iluv:

    craigslist
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    nice find. I and Mrsiluvmysephia1 are disagreeing on the need (or strong "want") for a 1967 VW Bug. As I forewarned earlier. So it's probably not going ta happen and it just turns in to another one of my 2007 Suzuki SX-4 freak outs of automobile desire, and something that never comes to be. Unless? :)

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    edited July 2013
    last time i drove on a track i found i strongly preferred the automatic transmission. keeping both hands on the wheel is critical, and outweighs any benefit/enjoyment manually shifting on a track.

    holding wheel with one hand, shifting manually, forces me to drive slower, else one wrong twitch of the wheel and the caddy CTS-V would be augered into a barrier or sideways off the roadcourse track.

    so i understand the porsche GT3 designer dude's choice to make it automatic only.

    For a street car, i prefer a manual... But on the track, anywhere near "the limit", the GM automatic transmission was *perfect*. The automatic never did anything i didn't want, never did anything to upset the balance. Turns out i barely got to 75% of the limit of what the CTS-V could do - the pro driver demonstrated 100% very nicely during a "hot lap".
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Unfortunately the stick won't be available in the "more fun" engine at first.

    2014 Mazda 3S Grand Touring First Drive

    image
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    edited August 2013
    How many more ways will they find to "improve" the manual transmission? Throttle-by-wire usually sucks, electric steering ALWAYS sucks, now they are planning on introducing clutch-by-wire:

    Robert Bosch's eClutch system could help put manual transmissions back on car buyers' shopping lists.

    The eClutch eliminates two things drivers dislike most about cars with stick shifts: stalling and frequent use of the clutch pedal in stop-and-go traffic.

    The eClutch can also improve fuel economy between 5 and 10 percent, Bosch engineers say.

    During a recent press event here, reporters test drove an Audi A3 hatchback that Bosch had fitted with an eClutch. The car uses a standard clutch pedal and shifter and looks like any other vehicle with a manual transmission.


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20130806/OEM06/308079999/bosch-clutch-by-wire-pr- - events-stalling-boosts-mpg?cciid=email-autonews-mbs&r=7000G0458689C5Q#axzz2bA5Hw- - 2oN

    If the clutch is an endangered species, I will take mine manually operated and connected to the clutch plate by a hydraulic connection until the third pedal is well and truly deceased.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    honestly not sure how I feel about this, but I would love to try it. It almost sounds like a DSG with no auto mode, and the "pretend" clutch pedal some people have joked about.

    actually, sounds like a modern interpretation of the old VW semi-automatic set up.

    also sounds like something that could be useful in a semi?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm not sure either. I think it would drive me nuts because I'd be in two worlds at the same time, not knowing how to act.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,759
    It almost sounds like a DSG with no auto mode, and the "pretend" clutch pedal some people have joked about.

    That sounds like exactly what it is. But, if it has no automatic shifting, then it is still a manual; it's just a different interpretation of it. I'll pass... for now!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    just a fancy automated clutch. VW/Porsche and many others have done that in the past.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    that if there are three pedals under the dashboard, it's a manual.

    Perhaps not.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    it was never to me about the clutch. It was about the driver having to initiate a gear change (and pick the gear) or else it could not happen. Changing gears makes it a manual. the clutch is just the mechanism to avoid grinding them.

    so changing the actuation method of the clutch from hydraulic to electric really does not change the transmission.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    what I've enjoyed since the '70s, when I drove a Datsun 240Z to the terminal and a Kenworth with a 9509 Roadranger away, with a load of boats destined for the Great Lakes or New England, or wherever, was the ability to delay shifts, skip gears, or change my mind and go back into the gear I was just in.

    I drove the KW much differently when I was bobtailing than when I was pulling a heavy load. Then there's whether you're going uphill or down and all the rest. The timing between shifts is a big deal. Many of us did it with no clutch at all, but it's nice to have it when needed.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I would agree that is exactly what this would be, and GONE would be the ability to feather the clutch, to finesse the engagement of the gears to get the timing just so, much of the stuff that makes having a clutch fun and useful.

    Plus it sounds scary to me when they say they expect it to improve fuel economy by 5 to 10%. To me that smacks of "the e-clutch will do some of your thinking for you in order to maximize your fuel economy".

    I don't want my clutch thinking for me. If I had my druthers they would go back to the old chain connection to the clutch plate that preceded the hydraulic systems in use today.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,759
    I agree that much of the "feel" of the clutch was lost when hydraulic systems came on the scene. It is so easy to feel exactly where the engagement point is on my old Chevy pickup, and use that to maximum advantage. It took a long time for me to get used to a Subaru clutch pedal, which has about zero feel to it. For the longest time, it was just nothing.... nothing.... BAM-engaged! I had to adopt a drive-it-like-you-stole it mentality in order to consistently not stall from a stop.

    I'm not sure if this is the case with the transmission cited earlier, but it seems that there is likely not a mechanical connection between the shifter and the gearbox, either. So, the transmission may only shifts after driver input, but the driver clearly isn't the one shifting the car. Still a manual, but an entirely different interpretation.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    I think is still has normal mechanical gear change. Nothing in their indicated otherwise. sounds more like the clutch will just automaticlaly disengage, but the trans stays in gear.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • jackjonejackjone Member Posts: 2
    yaaa..3 pedal means manual bt automativ transmission is best.no need of shifting any gear just to put over the foot on race else break ...
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