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Comments
I think my TL was a great car too. But it had its drawbacks, is all I'm saying.
I believe that the pluses far exceed the negatives.
1) New 05 at $500 over invoice or 31,700
or
2) Used 04. 34K, currently down to 28,700 but with an extended warranty: 7yr 100K bumper to bumper. Car is a little over 1 yr old and is tight. No sqeaks or rattles that I read about.
Im in the middle. Can get a better finace rate on USED, due to it being certified (4.5% vs 5.5%). With price and interest rate difference, buying used will save about 10 grand over 5 years. But Im having a hard time shelling out that much for a high milage vehicle.
What to do?
Thanks fellas
All I can say is that the point regarding the turning radius is way overblown.
You might also want to drop the general Acura TL discussion as well. Good luck!
Guys I'm not bad mouthing the TL but I am giving my opinion between the two cars. The TL is a lot of fun to drive. But all my comments above are true for my car. I have a friend who has an 05 TL AT and he hasn't experienced problems with rattles either. So my comment to the poster above regarding 04 vs 05 would be go for the 05. They also fixed the "butt print' in the seat issue for the 05's.
Clearly I agree with you guys liking the TL or I would never have bought one. I wish driving both made sense.
It's all about trade offs and what a person likes the most. Purpose of this forum is to help those trying to decide so I hope my experience helps given I have had both.
Fris you are right the pluses of the TL do exceed the negatives. However, if people want an honest eval of the good and bad we should tell them.
And I don't know if it is due to FWD, or just the steering geometry, but I find the TL's steering, overall, to be a bit "loose", or "light" if you will, even when cruising at a steady pace, on all but perfectly smooth surfaces.
Today, bumpers scratch at the slightest bump . it’s great for the auto body interests!
I remember when I had my 1999 Mazda Millenia (Pearl White), I had to fix the bumper twice because of minor bumps that ruin the paint job.
IMHO, the exterior of the Avalon is butt-ugly and I couldn't get past it. I would be ashamed to be seen in such an outdated-upon-inception car. I put it in the same "what were they thinking?" category as the Buick LaCrosse. This of course is a subjective point of view, but had the Avalon been a looker, I probably would have bought it.
I just bought an 05 TL at a great year-end price ($30.1M including dest. and mudflaps) and so far it's a great car.
1. Have owned a 2003 Acura TL Type-S Navi (rear ended sold)
2. Have owned a 2004 Acura TL A spec (sold)
3. Own a 2005 Toyota Avalon Ltd.
All were fun cars with different personalities- but all were compromises and none are perfect. Bottom line on the Avalon- quick, comfy, and solid build. Bottom line on the Acura TL (2004)- quick, sporty and solid build. It seems to me that you are deciding between sport and comfort(I am not saying the TL was not comfortable but the scales were more towards sport suspensions vs. luxury suspension). Again, all are compromises and neither are perfect. BTW, the Avalon is my wife's car and the TL used to be my car. I loved 4 door sport sedans and in the end the TL A-Spec was not enough for me. I upped the anti to a 2005 Audi S4- much faster, sportier and etc... (still a compromise when you compare it to other cars in its class). Once again, there is no perfect car just a perfect fit and I wish all weighing these 2 great cars good luck and happy shopping! :shades:
My question to you is- is it MUCH faster than the TL, automatic for automatic, manual for manual?
I am leaning towards a manual car for my next purchase but my wife is giving me a hard time.
If you are asking how much faster my Audi S4 (4.2 V8- manual) is compared to the 04 Acura- TL (a spec) it is not even close. Seriously, go test drive one and all questions will be answered. As for reliability, consumer reports now recommends this Audi and it is rated top in it's class. I now have 9k miles on the car and never had an ounce of trouble.
Link for research:
http://motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0308_sport/index6.html
http://motortrend.com/features/performance/112_0403_tuner/index1.html
Also, the torque on the S4 is unbelievable. You can be in 6th gear at 40 and step on the gas and the car pulls harder than you could ever imagine- down shift and you had better hold on.
Again, all cars are compromises and I am sure there are better cars depending on how you measure them. For me, the Audi S4 was perfect for a sports sedan. The Avalon LTD was perfect for my wife (quick and comfy down the Hwy.)
Hope this was helpful-
:shades:
I am going to check out the manual S4 to see what it is about, I actually test drove a A4 3.0 couple of years ago-It was okay, nothing to go bragging about.
I was waching "Fast and Furious" over the weekend and it reinforced my decision to buy a manual transmission on my next purchase.:)
By the way I currently own a 1998 Avalon and a 2003 MDX. Will be selling the Avalon, once I get the new RL. I know I should keep the Avalon, but my husband and I have new car fever.
had the opportunity over the last several weeks to drive both the TL and a 530 for a period of several days each while out of town. I own an Av Touring. The Av is unequivocably a luxury car and should not be confused with the term 'sports sedan'. Although the power is similar for all three, the Av is softer and quieter - much more like a Lexus. The 530 is a wonderfully balanced driver's car - a sports sedan by any definition - BMW did, after all, invent the term. The TL has a problem in that it trys hard to emulate what BMW does so well, similar issues with road noise and harshness (part of the sacrifices made on all 'sports' cars), but still with some nasty torque steer under throttle (delmar - this was an '05) and understeer at cornering limits. The Av, of course, suffers from the same maladies but, at least the TS is masked by a much softer suspension setup. Bottom line is that there is no way any FWD vehicle with 60%+ of its weight up front and a lot of HP will ever be a credible sports sedan. Better to take the Av approach and don't pretend to be what the laws of physics say it cannot be. The Av and TL are really much different cars, in concept - and on the road.
Did, by the way, find the TL a really fun car to drive and it did impress with with its overall fit/finish - but a G/M35, 530, or E350 it ain't. The whole experience served to reinforce my choice of the Av, given that I'm not willing to trade off too much of that quiet ride and smoothness for something a little more competent when driven hard.
Let me say that it is unfair to compare the $50k BMW 530 to a $33k TL. Totally different class vehicles. A $50k car that more comparable to a Lexus GS, Jaguar S Type, or Acura RL. If you should go to the Acura site....the TL doesn't even try to compare itself to a BMW 530.
What really interests me is that you indicate that "The Av, of course, suffers from the same maladies but, at least the TS is masked by a much softer suspension setup." I don't understand how you can beat up the TL for torque steer then immediately say that the Avalon has torque steer also but has a soft suspension. I don't understand how a soft suspension would counteract torque steer.
I do respect your views and once again I do respect the Avalon. However...it is unfair to compare TL to 530....cars from different classes. That is like comparing the Avalon to a Jetta.
Detectable by most folks, by the way, accelerating hard out of a corner, the steering will tug (sometimes not so gently) in the same direction of the turn. Maximas and Saabs have had the problems for years, the TL quite a bit better, the Av almost undetectable. But the point, of my post - neither the TL or the Av are really sports sedans and won't ever be until the drive wheels move to the rear and weight distribution improves.
Hope you don't take this with exception. Where I am at with the 'masked' softer suspension is that it would reduce the ability to control torque steer. If you cannot sense it or compensate with suspension / road handling...then you have another issue on your hands. But that is my two cents and my preferences...which everyone is entitled to with respect.
And I am ok with your use of the 530 as a pure sports sedan...and over priced $50k+ one.
My thoughts.... The Avalon is a great near luxury (san sports which it does not attempt to be...except when folks try to use the horsepower argument) vehicle. The TL and G35 are great luxury-sports vehicles. And all very well priced for what you get!
Suspension geometries and tunings that are 'soft' enough to hide TS will by definition also hide some road feel. The Av, even in Touring trim, has less road feel and lower handling limits than the TL, but, that is the price you pay for the Av's smoother and quieter ride. Kind of whatever floats your boat - Consumer Reports has them both rated at the same very high number in a 'luxury sedan' category, ahead of several cars at $50k+, considering I guess the repair histories/costs and the real values that the $30k+ Avs and TL's are - over the superior dynamics of the 530's/A6s etc..
I was forced into driving my mother-in-law's '04 TL for a few weeks. It's a good looking car, but far from comfortable. Stiff suspension, awkward getting into and out of, really a pain in the a.. in general. The BlueTooth key fob also drove me insane by automatically adjusting the seat. I guess as a "visitor" I shouldn't complain. I was far more impressed by the '03 design - much more room and comfort.
Enjoy the Avalon!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
And this generation of TL has taken the car way past the previous gen. Two totally different cars.
In what ways? Gizmos I presume, basically its the same engine from the previous genaration Type "S" that they brought over to the current TL with a bit of fine tuning.
I am not bad mouthing the current TL but the previous generation (which I own) has a more classier look especially the Type S.
In addition to the gizmos, I believe they also fine tuned the suspension as well as the engine. As one would hope, the TL continues to evolve.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
I have three more payments on my 03 TLS and the current TL is not even on my short list.
Right now I am looking on the RL, 530XI, A6 3.2 or 4.2 and the GS350 (waiting for the release).
Honestly, I am in no rush to buy a new car, I might just wait for the next generation TL.
Good Luck with your TL.
Other than a label of 'Type-S' I can't tell 03 TL from 03 TL type-S from the outside. Why Type S 'especially' then?
I have to also say 04+ TL stands out much more than 03- TL. Now it may stand out to one's liking or disliking, but I bet more would turn their heads for those new TL. 03 TL does give you a softer (more comfy) ride, and it's less $$ though. Can't get everything.
If I was in the market, from your list I'd test all but the GS350. The styling just isn't for me (we do have a Lexus in the family). The 530 is no beauty, but it's grown on me. It's still only a 7 to the TL's 9, however!
Speaking of the RL, it reminds me of your gen TL in that I find the RL to be handsome, but generically so. It just blends in to the crowd a little to much. Cool car, though.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
They are actually several physical features that are different on the S-
1).Wheels- much better than those star fish wheels on the base model
2)17" on the S compared to 16" on the base
3)The seats are different
4).The type S badge as you mentioned
Things you cannot see but feel-
1).The 260 horses compared to the 225 on the base
2).The sports tuned suspension compared to the soft suspension on the base.
I love this car but we are going to have to go our seperate ways this coming summer.
I would be interested to see what others are thinking..Do most of you see the handling, quality, trim and styling of the TL as closer to the Avalon or as closer to the entry sport/luxury sedans?
When I crossed shopped, I looked at the entry level sport sedans from Infinity, Lexus, Audi, and VW (Passat). The combination of sporty exterior, ride, handling, interior, and price of the TL won out for me. Some of the others had better handling or power, but for me the TL had the best combination of looks, features and price.
Anyway, at some point, I had to convince myself that power, space and comfort outweighed sport. I realized that in my normal driving activities, there is little use for sport driving. I could not recall too many times where I wanted to gun it around a tight curve (though those were fun times). However, I did recall how the BMW wasn't all that comfortable on long, weekend drives that involved a lot of straight roads common in Florida. So, I went with the Avalon and chose the Touring trim as it is slightly more sport-tuned than other trims (and it doesn't have that crap fake wood in it)...although its still not a sports sedan.
In sum, a lot depends on a person's normal driving pattern. and, I think a lot also depends on whether you live in a state with primarily straight roads or a state with lots of curvy roads.
I agree with everything you said about the differences between the avalon and the Tl and I am glad that your car fits what you needed to a "T". I didn't meant to imply that the Avalon isn't anything but a great car. But, I think you actually made my point that the cars are so different that I am surprised that they get cross shopped.
Your points on the Lexus GS items that are on the Avalon are well taken. You did indeed make a good purchase for your needs.
Much to many people's disbelief, I am only 30 years old and am in love with the Avalon. I'm absolutely in love with the styling of the Avalon. I concluded that the Avalon's styling is more timeless and will age gracefully. The TL, with it's hard edged lower skirt ground effects, style started to not interest as much as it did when I first saw the design. Avalon looks to me to have a more visually appealing design. A cleaner, understated design when compared with the TL's design.
The cars that I cross shopped were the TL, RL, Avalon, ES330, Ford Five Hundred, and Ford Taurus.
I have a linebacker like body (6'2"; 270lbs.) and spend many hours in my vehicle showing clients apartment buildings (usually in stop and go, noisy, inner cities) as a real estate broker. So, cabin comfort and spaciousness was a top priority. The Avalon won out in the group hands down. It offered the most space for my knees..my knees no longer rested along the side of the center console unit anymore. The wide center armrest was a huge plus. The fact that there is more distance between me and the front passenger is a huge plus because I can get stuck sitting next to a client for long car rides that has stinky breath...I call that my 'workplace hazard'. :-) The TL just seemed too cramped.
Since I'm on the road and in my car a lot, safety was a primary concern of mine since by virtue of spending more time driving I had an increased chance of getting into an accident. Although the Avalon did not get straight A's according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Loss( http://www.iihs.org/ratings/default.aspx ) it was close to matching the best ratings of the group's leaders. I was, although, shocked to hear that the crash test dummies in the Avalon's crash test suffered enough pressure on the right knee area to cause damage (see link above for details on safety)...and the Avalon comes with the front knee airbags! No matter, I've got a bum right knee already that the ortho doctor can't seem to fix no matter how many arthroscopic surgeries he tries. :-)
The best option that I liked on the Avalon was the ventilated driver's seat. I can't count how many days I would get out of my car in the summer with a dress shirt on with a visually perceivable sweaty back. Problem solved with the Avalon.
I thought the TL's power and ride responsiveness was very nice (much better than the Avalon's) when I test drove it, but I asked myself how often would I try to test the limits of the car? What's the point? If I wanted to drive a firm riding, sports like ride I would buy and drive a sports car like a Porsche Cayman/Boxster or something.
One huge disappointment with the Avalon is that it does not offer Bluetooth. Not sure why because the 2007 Camry offers that option and you would imagine that Toyota's flagship car would offer it as well. Maybe the '07 Avalon will offer it.
What I saw in the Avalon was a poor man's Lexus LS 400. Basically, Lexus quality at Toyota price.
Wear a t-shirt under your dress shirt to aviod the sweateness.
And then happened by a Toyota dealer who I had thought had nothing to offer to meet the definition, and there it was - a hot off the presses Avalon Touring. Impressions: the G35 easily the best drivers car, the only true sports sedan of the three, and an absolute hoot to drive - but small and with fit/finish not quite up to the other two. The TL, wonderful engine, suprisingly rough ride with some torque steer (more like a Maxima) and was really turned off by those 'bubble gum gauges' and concerns about transmission problems. The Avalon superior designed larger interior, and, at least, in my opinion the best trade off between ride and handling (Touring trim - the other trims too soft), power to run with either, and better mpg and a couple of thousand cheaper. Would do the same thing again, but the Avalon is certainly a different car than the TL.