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Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion

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Comments

  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    I'm not sure why Chevrolet went ahead with the SSR, but at least is has a better engine (6.0 liter 390 hp LS2 along with an Eaton limited-slip diff w/ 6 speed) for 2005.

    The Cadillac XLR is expensive, but it makes far more sense than the SSR.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "Now, this is old stuff but I would like your takes on the Cien concept. In my opinion this is the design they couldn't pull off with CTS and XLR, the design that is a near-perfect study in asymmetrical angular detail. It's GM's Lambo and the legitimate styling son of Stingray. Bold attempts at styling ususally fail IMO but this was an extaordinary design effort."

    Exactly. To me this new styling direction is off in many ways for Cadillac. The XLR I think has failed to meet sales projections because of styling. I don't think people buying a 76K luxury GT want it to look like a jet fighter of some sort, they want elegant styling with a little edge like an SL or pure elegance like a Jaguar XK. The XLR while unique may be too much so for the segment.

    I too thought the world of the Cien concept. Would have made a great productionc car, but a Cadillac of that price and specification wouldn't have had a market outside of a few rich GM fanatics.

    As always its very interesting to read your take on styling of new cars. What is your take on the new Mustang.

    For me I'm not that crazy about it. The tires always look too small and the rear overhang too long. However at Detroit this year they had more tuner Mustangs than you could believe. They're so hot when done over by these tunning companies. The Saleen example was a sheer masterpiece imo. Isn't that something. I don't like the Ford version but love the aftermarket types!

    M
  • speeds2muchspeeds2much Member Posts: 164
    "Also, do you guys think that maybe it was a bad idea to take the Camaro off the production line, instead of just making simple improvements? (I heard a rumor of it's return later sometime)
    GM has serious financial troubles right now; and I guess that answers my question."

    Personally, I think Chevrolet should have kept it around during the go-go 90s when sports cars were more popular, but what's worse is that they killed the car in order to "refocus" and focused on....what? More bland cars with subpar interiors. As for their financial troubles, since their debt's already trading near junk levels, I assume the market believes they're going they way of Chapter 11. Terrible for the U.S.A., but it's not as if GM didn't have numerous chances over the years to get it right. Even with over $30 billion in cash, burning $3 billion per quarter is not sustainable, especially if the economy dips again and that burn rate ratchets up. :sick:
  • ultimatedriverultimatedriver Member Posts: 74
    Let's hope the new Kappas will help end the slump. Not so much the Solstice as there has been much debate over that vehicle, but the a Saturn Sky. This vehicle is a masterful execution of the platform's styling potential.

    GM also needs to decide on an overall styling direction for their individual divisions. Something that looks good. It's not hard to figure out that people enjoy car that drives well and exudes an air of quality. The only thing GM has been doing in a quality fashion is avoiding styling trends and decent driving dynamics. Let's hope the Kappa will come through for us,

    As stated before regarding the Solstice, I can't wait for the drive.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    New to this forum, but have some thoughts based upon recent car shopping / test drives.

    From November 2001 until May 2004 I owned a 2002 Honda S2000. At the time, I thought it was the best bang for the buck "pure sports car" one could buy in the US. No unnecessary do-dads like power lumbar messaging seats or 20 speaker digital surround sound stereo. Just a ultra-tight chassis, nice light 2,800 lb curb weight, 9,000 rpm redline screamer of an engine. I thought the performance - especially the handling - was as good as one could get south of $50k+.

    Now that my circumstances have changed, I've been casually shooping for a new "fun" car. The new (997) 911 S Cabriolet is high on my list. The Boxster S is a consideration, as is the new SLK 6-speed. I even remotely considered the 430 Spider, since - if you can believe this - the wait on a "real" 6-speed is considerably less than an F1. Unfortunately, the $75,000 price premium is a deal killer. I could see paying $200k list for a car that I could drive for 3-4 years and sell for $150k. But the extra premium effectively doubles or triples the real cost of the car. I am also a bit turned off that, according to the dealer, driving the car 8,000 miles a year for 3-4 years would "kill" the resale. He had never seen a 360 with more than 25,000 miles, most 3+ year old models have less than 15,000 miles. Some "fun" car, if it needs to be a garage queen in order to preserve resale.

    During this casual shopping, I have come to appreciate even more the $32k Honda S2000. While the 911 S is certainly an impressive car (only drove the coupe, not the cabriolet), you would have to be a better driver than me to use any slight handling advantage that the $90k+ 911 S has over the Honda.
  • ultimatedriverultimatedriver Member Posts: 74
    I've been shopping for an S2000 to play with for a while. I just got done working on one for a customer of mine and the test drive was phenomenal. I'm going to go for a 2002 model with the glass rear window and the 2000cc DOHC four (love the response of that engine).

    I believe if you have the patience and wherewithal to do the upgrades, go for a lightweight valvetrain, pulleys and flywheel. Your throttle response will be that much faster.

    A 17-inch wheel/tyre package and Ohlins aluminium HOV5A00 front and HOV6A00 rear shocks are probably the best I've seen on the car. Coupled with a nice progressive rate spring package, this setup takes away a lot the choppiness of the default setup for road use. On the street, this handily eliminates a lot of the handling advantages the 997 has. I suggest Tein as the company of choice for a good track spring.

    Because of the inherent quality found in anything with a Honda badge, it would be nothing for me to buy a 50-60k mile vehicle. Even after a while, a 80k mile or more example will be a value, because engine build ups are relatively easy when compared to exotic German or Italian iron.

    The S2000 is an awesome car regardless of the money. I've seen sub-5 second cars through nothing but bolt-ons. Coupled with the numerous suspension setups available in the aftermarket, the Honda is an incredible value.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    check out the album labelled "S2000"

    http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/nigelshiftright/my_photos
  • ultimatedriverultimatedriver Member Posts: 74
    Always impressive to find a well done example. Although they may not have the cachet of the others, they're just as much sports cars. Furthermore, you don't feel guilty taking it around the coast or across the state.
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    Watch out for RMS (rear main seal) leaks of the new 997. Porsche refuses to fix the RMS leaks which first came out with the 1997 Boxster.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Would you please not spam the boards with this same message in the future? Your point has been made numerous times and some users find it annoying. Thanks!
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    habitat1 considered the Porsche 911 Carrera S cabriolet on this sports cars thread.

    I was simply letting him know to watch out for those leaks.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I appreciate that, but you've posted this many many times in many forums, so please let's drop it and go on to other subjects. This is beating a dead horse and is off topic here anyway, okay? Okay!
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    okay.

    so anyways.

    new topic.

    Are sports cars that are raced better than sports cars that aren't raced?
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    I'm not racing! The fact that I came in third in a time trial does not mean that I passed anyone or that anyone passed me. If they do a good job of qualifying the faster cars go away and the slower cars do the same in the rear view. I think there were almost a dozen in the last time trial I did and 6 were in my class for power to weight and grip, two left me in the dust, well the first place guy did, and the other three didn't seem to keep up too well. Let's you focus on staying smooth and staying on line.
    Racing is a whole different game, from taking some racing classes, and I for one am not ready to mix it up wheel to wheel. Yesterday at Dega showed me why graphically. I don't think racing has much to do with the definition, but ability to race or at least drive on a track, does bring out some of the better qualities or lack thereof. Love passing Boxsters, even if they are underpowered!
  • ultimatedriverultimatedriver Member Posts: 74
    This brings us back to that definition of sports car. I, being an avid BMW enthusiast and driver, would support the claim that racing does nothing more than improve the breed. In the case of BMW, it improves every product in the company's lineup.

    Of course I'll meet a counterpoint in our esteemed host, the honorable Mr. Shifty who has previously stated that sedan based coupes aren't proper sports cars. If this were entirely true, then that would leave the M3 and the rest of BMW's small car lineup for nearly the past 40 or so years (read 1800ti and 2002 models) in a bit of a void in the automotive universe.

    But I'm not going to dwell on that. I definitely know that racing is where a sports car that wants to call itself a sports ca earns it's stripes. It makes me feel better about aggressive driving in a car whose manufacturer has been improving the breed for the better part of the last half century. 'Nuff said.
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    BMW didn't start making their sporty new cars until the 1960s, not the 1950s.
  • ultimatedriverultimatedriver Member Posts: 74
    Not sure where I eluded to the 50's in that last post. My apologies for the erroneous information.

    "...and the rest of BMW's small car lineup for nearly the past 40 or so years"

    Placing the era in the 60's, or so I thought.

    "...for the better part of the last half century"
    In reference to the previous statement.

    Sorry about that everyone.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    "Love passing Boxsters, even if they are underpowered!"

    You've explained your preference for power but I sniff something else roiling around here. Would like to hear what's so special about passing a Boxster.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well if he means a bulldog can beat up a canary, well sure. Look at the comparative displacments. At almost TWICE the horsepower, shame on him if he doesn't pass a Boxster.

    But a Corvette is still a bit of a brute next to a Boxster. You have to balance all the factors. If it was just "who passes who" we would declare the Viper the best sports car ever built in the world and we'd be very wrong. Even with 125 fewer horses the Boxster S will keep up with a Corvette at terminal speed (over 160 mph).

    If he means a Corvette is the best PERFORMANCE bang for the buck (best stats) in the sports car market, he's probably right. For the mid $50K bracket, it's hard to beat.

    Still speaking for myself, I like a sports car of a certain size, agility, build quality and styling, so I wouldn't be shopping a Corvette, as it doesn't have most of those things, at least not in the flavor I like. I mean, a Subaru STi can beat up my Porsche 928, and do I now lust after Subarus? Not at all. It's fast, rides like a truck, torque steers and is styled for 25 year olds. Not my style but just perfect for others. Drive what you like and be happy.

    RE: M3s --- are sports sedans, not sports cars. They have trunks and back seats and cupholders and power seats-- I mean REALLY!
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    what do you think of the new Corvette Z06?
  • ultimatedriverultimatedriver Member Posts: 74
    With the exception of the back seat, the Vette (on my top 5 list of favorite cars of all time) has all those things you've mentioned.

    Is this to say that all sports cars must be two seat coupes? Has the definition of sports car not evolved as much as the automotive landscape as a whole? Sure there are basic elements that comprise every sports car that is a sports car (and I think enough of everyone within this forum to know what those elements are).

    However, are we to continually limit ourselves to thinking that a buckboard ride and no amenities are the final bastions of sports car-dom? Or can a compromise be met? Is it possible to be able to handle well and provide a supple ride? Can I take off faster than Jennifer Lopez in matrimony while carrying, dare I say... groceries? Have manufacturers come far enough in their processes to be able to race a chassis season after season, only to have it serve double duty in the consumer market as a coupe, convertible, sedan and estate (wagon)?

    I just can't limit myself to the notion that just because a vehicle can do one thing, it cannot be classified as another. If it can do both, then it earns both titles and should wear them well. Don't tell me that just because I'm studious do my homework every night, I shouldn't be able to run the 40m in less than 5 secs, and the 100m in less than 11. Don't tell me that because I'm a hard working mechanic or technician, that I can't get dressed up after hours and waltz with my wife because I'm better at it than she is.

    Finally, please don't tell me that a sports car can't have power seats, back seats, cupholders and [gasp!] a trunk. I'll take the Pepsi challenge against the best out there when my M5 gets here. Don't for one second think that my 500bhp and well sorted suspension won't do the talking for me on either road or track against any sports car out there. There may be better sports cars out there, but that doesn't disqualify me from being included among them.
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    I guess the 'thing' about passing Boxsters started when I started reading international sports car mags and some US versions. All the reviews would go on about how great the Boxster was and ignore the Corvette, in a tight autocross I'd have to give them the point. But, on a road track the Boxster's I've seen, even with more experienced drivers don't show me much, not even the S. I'm not that experienced, hey the first time I passed a Miata I was happy, it doesn't take much from where I started.
    A stock Corvette from just last year to 3+ years ago when I got one, set up for the track is mid $40's to under $40k, actual price of two in our garage. Compare that to the Boxster out the door before tax and licence and Shifty is right, the Vette is a much better deal. And that applies to touring as well as performance.
    Then again most people I meet at the track are very helpful, as I try to be now to those just starting. Some Porsche drivers, well let's just say they weren't always so helpful. But that's individuals, it just struck me early on. One in particular in a Boxster S who really seemed upset when I passed him the first time I went to a Driving Event after having been to a race school for a couple days and had one day in my car with professional instruction. All he knew was that it was my first track event and I was riding with an instructor, all of which was true if not the whole story. I just grinned a lot. :D He thought he belonged in a higher group but the event promoter didn't. My passing him was sort of the final straw in his coping skills. He complained but my instructor said it was a very safe pass of someone who was holding up traffic. They usually aren't that blunt. :blush:
    Randy
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    I agree, except about the pricing, as noted above. I've been passed by WRX's and Evo's and don't worry about it too much, they are nice Rally cars and very fast when handled well. But, I too don't see them as something I would enjoy driving, either on the street or at the track.

    As for the M5, gosh, having seen what I've seen in M3's I expect that I would be very impressed. Now the best I've seen have Dinan suspension but even stock they are amazing, but again, I'll take the bang for the buck! Hey even the C5 has one cup holder, useless as it is. ;)
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    The M5 is less of a "sports car" than the original M5.

    The new M5 lacks a driver-oriented interior.

    has too many gizmos.

    doesn't have a manual transmission.

    now as to the new M5 keeping up with a new Z06.

    The new Corvette Z06 weighs around 900 pounds less than the new M5. Hmmmm...

    TVR seems to make some awesome sports cars.

    TVR
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Now that brand would add a lot of zest and color to the U.S. sports car market. They're such unique cars.

    M
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    nah, an M5 doesn't even come close to my personal conception of a sports car---what I mean by that, is the mental image that comes to my mind when I hear the word "sports car".

    When someone says "beautiful woman" I don't think of a woman in her 50s, although she may be beautiful by the standards of a 50 year old. When someone says "island in the sea" I don't think of Long Island, yet it qualifies.

    I guess I mean that the term "sports car" has a visceral meaning, an "archtypal" meaning beyond mere logical argument. Power seats and automatic tranmission? How can that be?

    Z06---awesome car, but I simply don't like Corvette styling at all and never have since 1958. Z06 is BETTER than C5 but that butt is terrible IMHO. Also too BIG--same complaint with Ferrari, so settle down---

    I don't like sportscars with tires the width of road rollers, and 7 feet wide door to door. It's too much work (for me) to drive them fast on the narrow roads I like up here in Marin county. Even my 928 is sometimes a pain for this reason. It's got a heavy response. When I switch to my friends 911 it's like a ballerina compared to a hippo.
  • skeezixskeezix Member Posts: 45
    How come you don't like big rears on cars? Your 928 has a big rear, doesn't it?
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Maybe it's just big square rears which are a problem while those big round rears are better.

    Wait, we're talking about cars, right? ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm not particularly fond of my car's butt either but yes, I really never liked the Kammback style or any hint of it....while the 928 is too bulbous in the back at least it isn't a kammback. I think kammback really dates a car and dooms it to oblivion.

    At least the 928's big butt is functional. It's a full hatchback and you could stuff a piano in there...I got a refrigerator in mine once.

    Also I don't like plastic cars of any kind, as long as we're all talking about ME.

    This includes fiberglass, kevlar, plastic, etc.

    I want metal, I want curves, I want two seats, I want lotsa noise, great handling---basically a totally useless car for anything other than having fun.

    Making a sports car "useful" is the Kiss of Death in my book.

    Oh, do I think than that a Porsche 928 is a sports car?

    No, it's a genuine GT car -- (definition: two people, real fast, in comfort and luxury, for long distances).
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I really never liked the Kammback style or any hint of it...."

    I dunno - I've kinda got a soft spot for the Cobra Daytona Coupe look. I think the Kammback style looks very 'purposeful'; just what a true 'sportscar' should look like.

    "No, it's a genuine GT car --"

    I'm glad someone finally brought this up: when we discuss "Sports Cars" (and the associated 'what is' and 'what is not' a Sports Car), it seems as though inevitably everyone splits into 2 camps:

    1. Sports Car as a distinctly different class of automobile (ie: a "Sports Car" is not a "GT" which is not a "Sports Sedan" which is not a "Sporty Coupe" which is not a "Muscle Car"). In other words, a particular vehicle falls into only ONE category. So, a Celica is a 'sporty coupe' (not a 'sports car'), a 928 is a 'GT' (not a 'sports car'), and a BMW 3-series is a 'sports sedan' (not a 'sports car').

    2. Sports Car as an overall umbrella classification which can be broken down further into different types of cars. Under this definition, virtually anything 'sporty' is a 'sports car'.

    Perhaps we should kick it around a bit to see if we can reach some consensus about whether or not 'sports cars' should be a seperate distinct classification or if it is simply an overall umbrella term?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Maybe the Cobra coupe works better as a Kammback because of the short rear deck. Also it's so incredibly rare (only 58 I believe) that nobody cares what it looks like, they just want one. Some Kammbacks are more tolerable than others but it is a "severe" body form. I think there really was a Dr. Kamm, too.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    How about the four-man bobsled? Is that any less of a “sports car” than the two-man version? M5 and M3... your IN baby!!!

    ;-)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    “Some Porsche drivers, well let's just say they weren't always so helpful. But that's individuals, it just struck me early on. One in particular in a Boxster S…”

    I figured there was some social element to your disdain for Boxsters. Certain impressions are hard to shed, and arrogance is probably the surest ticket to a negative impression no doubt. I have heard that Porsche owners are helpful to each other at track events, but then again this is within the Porsche fraternity. Personally, I consider myself a member of the sports-car fraternity first, not the brand fraternity. Even though there are particular sports cars I would never buy, I basically like most of them. So whenever I see anyone with ANY sports car, I feel an immediate connection, regardless of their reasons for owning one.
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    The new Corvette is nearly the same length as a new 911.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    I notice sales of the Cadillac XLR are up substantially in March and April. My choice in this market would be an SL or a Corvette but the XLR presents an interesting alternative.

    XLR sales have been mostly in the 250-300 range since introduction. March and April 05 sales were 453 and 502 units respectively. This is about half Mercedes SL sales but a big increase for the XLR. We'll see if it continues.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Think of common English usage versus accepted usage. Pronunciation of the word "nuclear" as "nu-kye-lar" is nearly sanctioned by Webster's. Even though there are luminaries who use the corrupted version, they'll look at you sideways in literary circles if you pronounce it this way. So it is very easy to understand the purists' thumbs-down on sport sedans and such.

    Anyway, here's a link that wrangles mildly with the definition of a sports car:

    http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=1bl9m817so6pq?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Spor- - ts+car&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01b

    Shifty… After reading over my post #140 I'm thinking it may have appeared smug and contentious toward you. Sorry if it came across as such, this was not my intention. Sometimes the wriitten word belies the thought and tone.

    scott1256… Don't forget this is the roadster-buying season. What's the discount story with XLR?

    Merc… I'll get to the Mustang sooner or later.
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    Great link and thanks for the info! Now the next Boxster I see, I'll have to just think of it as an overpowered Miata and be helpful, anyway, given the limitations noted.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=9511

    Good read about the current One Lap and car vs. driver skills.

    Randy
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No, you weren't smug or contentious....that's MY job around here :P

    I like that sports car definition....rather says it all.

    I realize everyone wants to be in the fraternity but I'll never call a 4-door sedan a sports car until I'm in my grave, so fahgeddaboutit.

    You have to draw a line in the sand, as difficult as that is, and some are IN and some are OUT---otherwise, welcome, folks to the new Tower of Babble and your new Kia 4-door "sports car".

    Compromise has always rendered language meaningless. Isn't that where most of the ridiculous "PC" langauge comes from---trying to include everybody in everything?
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    You are right, it is roadster season. What surprises me is that XLR sales are so much higher this year compared to March/April of 2004.

    As far as discounts - in Jan/Feb 05 there were some higher discounts ($4,000+ off MSRP). Maybe this cleared out inventory.

    Most XLR sales now are closer to MSRP. CarsDirect is currently $1,000 off MSRP for Miami and other buying services are up as well.
  • ultimatedriverultimatedriver Member Posts: 74
    It's understood that you refuse to see the other side of things, Shifty. I still respect your opinion on this board and continue to look forward to your educated and witty remarks.

    I hope you weren't referring to my calling the M5 a sports car in your most recent post. Even though I've accepted the fact that, in your eyes, the M5 will never be a sports car, I can't accept the grouping of said M5 with a Kia costing 13 grand. Even if it is your view, I just can't see a consumer, enthusiast, journalist or salesperson putting a $80K+ "super sedan" (gotta love that moniker) within the same category (or being excluded from the same category) a workaday econobox. I just can't,
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No, no, I meant that if we include the M5 as a sports car, then ANYONE owning ANY kind of sedan will demand entry into the club....and in a weird way, they be right, based on appearances alone.

    So to avoid this, we have the category "sports sedan" which is another branch of SPORT. It's a sedan but one with awesome performance---goodbye Hyundai..

    If there were no such thing as two seater, very light, agile, very small convertibles and coupes, then an M5 could be a sports car I suppose...but how on earth can an S2000 and an M5 be in the same class? They couldn't be more different.

    The whole idea of "definition" is to differentiate, in other words.

    So for inexpensive coupes with spoilers and fancy wheels, we have the category "sporty sedans"---that is the appearance of sport without putting the rubber on the road to prove it. A Sebring convertible is a "sporty" car, no doubt about it, but will it hang with a German sports sedan---no, the suspension and brakes will protest mightily in a short time. I've cooked the brakes and tires on many a pretend "sports car" in 15 minutes or less.
  • speeds2muchspeeds2much Member Posts: 164
    No doubt this definition of "sports car" versus sports sedan, GT, etc. is significant.

    I think I encountered this difference over the weekend during a test drive of the 997. Have to say (and I know I'm opening myself up for criticism) the car didn't drive and feel like a sports car to me. I was disappointed and surprised. What I expect from a sports car (or even a sport GT) is a glued-to-the-road feeling, along with sharp turn-in and quickness. The 997 is truly a GT imo. Engine pulls like a locomotive in mid-high revs...no doubt about that. But there's way too much motion going on underneath. The car bobbed and pitched over bumps in "Normal" PSM mode, then buttoned down noticeably in "Sport" mode...although not enough for me. I found it difficult to set the nose into a line, in part because there's not enough visbility of the road ahead from the seating position. I found the ride supple, even soft, and knew I'd want the -20mm sport suspension, which apparently is a must for the track. Also thought the sport shifter would be a worthwhile option because the throws were a little long. So the options list seems to be Porsche's admission that it's not a total "sports car," otherwise why would they offer a sport suspention and sport shifter? What got me the most, though, is that I'm not the kind of guy who wants to get beaten up on the road in order to brag about lap times, yet craved more sport in this car...the car was just too soft. If anything, going into the test drive I expected to find the car too wild for my tastes. Go figure. :confuse:

    As a GT the car also failed imo, primarily because the car idles far too roughly. The "shimmy" described in some reviews was more a "bouncing" and "shaking," a la 60s muscle car. Again, I was surprised Porsche engineers dialed in this much roughness in their $80K flagship!? It said to me: you all think the 911 got too soft, okay, jerks, how's THIS for you? :surprise:

    I think the Boxster S, having driven one, feels like a sports car. Sharp and responsive, easy to find a line. The Cayman S will probably be a true driver's car, too. Why is it, though, that in 2005 it's hard to find a true sports GT at any price south of $200,000? The Jag XK coupe doesn't even offer a manual transmission.

    BTW, I drove a BMW 330ci after the 911 and thought that's it, quiet inside but taut, sharp, quick. Better overall imo and far less $$. So maybe I'm really a Bimmer kinda guy, after all. May have to buy one and then dream about having a Boxster as a 2nd car. :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the Boxster S is the best, overall, balanced, "can do it all" sportscar at the moment.

    The 997 requires (speaking for myself) a higher skill level to drive at 9/10th than a Corvette or a Boxster, and I don't quite have that level. Also I don't like the 996/997 engines as much as the 993s---I think the 993 engine is stronger and better built by far. One reason I think so is that you can buy a 996 crate engine for only $7,000 bucks. To rebuild a 993 would cost $12K easy.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Well you convinced me that I need to go out and test drive a Boxster S again. Especially after getting word that the earliest I could get a 997 911S Convertible would be late this year or early next.

    The one psychological problem I will have is that the Boxster S costs twice as much as a Honda S2000 - which I owned from 2001 to 2004. In some ways, it is easier justifying three times the price for a 911 that, for the time being, can seat my two daughters in the back seat. But heck, you might consider that as ample reason to defrock the 911 of a "sports car" label.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I feel your pain, and the Honda S2000 is a great car for the money, but after all, it's still a Honda and feels and looks like a Japanese car ( for better and for worse). Can you say NSX? Same thing happened to that car. On paper it looked great, they are extremely competent and fast, and they run great, too---- and on paper you'd say "why on earth would someone buy a Ferrari?" But they did anyway, and the NSX has always struggled for sales.

    My theory is that people with some money in their pockets are not stupid. If they are choosing a Boxster S over a Honda S2000, they are making a decision based on something more than Pavlovian slobbering over a marketing scheme. They must see something in the S that makes it worth it to them.

    What that something is might vary from buyer to buyer, and sure, prestige IS a part of the sports car market. But there is in fact something "german" about a German car, in looks and feel, that you don't get in a Japanse car, and vice-versa. Some people HATE how german cars drive and feel...works both ways.

    I'm just glad that sports cars today DO feel and look so different.

    I'll confess...when I see an S2000 I have to look hard---is it an MR2? From 300 100 yards, is it a Miata?

    But I see a Boxster and I know what it is. I like that when I'm choosing a car.

    I saw a very funny but very CRUEL bumpter sticker about Miatas but I can't post it, sorry.

    I'd spec race a Miata in a heartbeat but wouldn't own one for the reasons stated above---my own hangups.
  • ultimatedriverultimatedriver Member Posts: 74
    All this time I thought I was the only one with reservations about the 997 after driving one in Miami a few weeks ago. It probably didn't help that I was cross-shopping between the new 997 S, and a 1996 993 Turbo. It wasn't the outright engine power I was monitoring mainly because the Turbo had been modified by Ruf.

    I was paying more attention to the compression/rebound settings of the suspension on this "sportier" model. The amount of vertical motion, while better than a lot of sports cars out there, wasn't what it used to be in the 993. The Turbo's shock/spring settings had been left untouched by Ruf, so a bit of a head to head comparison was unknowingly staged.

    The 993 rode like a proper GT in a straight line just as the 997 did. Throw in a 20mph bumpy freeway on ramp, however, and the difference couldn't be more apparent. The 993 soaked up the cracks and dips like nobody's business, yet maintained it's composure with a minimal amount of body movement. The 997 felt as if it had something to prove, chattering over certain sections of the freeway while its low profile tires kept my backside on edge.

    I then drove the standard Boxster (the Boxster S was out on another test drive) and everything I couldn't stand about the 997 was remedied with one lap around the block.

    I too am a BMW driver, but my notion going into the test was that a new 997, standard or S, would be able to have more composure than some guy's modified 325i. I left the store both disappointed and happy simultaneously.

    My suggestion? If there's ever an alternative to the 997, it's either the Boxster S or a 1996 993 Turbo.
  • spark123spark123 Member Posts: 1
    oh god, the euro snobbery on this forum... Mr Shiftlight you make it sound like being Japanese or "just a Honda" is a bad thing. Since when did reliability (something no German car can claim) become a bad thing? With that kind of attitude, I suppose it may be hard to give any Japanese car praise.
    And if you say that the S2000 "feels" like any other Japanese car out there, then you clearly haven't driven many Japanese cars. And by feel, I am hoping you are not talking about the interior materials, which is definitely NOT the most important part of a sportscar!

    If you are actually giving the S2000 a real and fair review, then I suppose you aren't really a purist or enthusiast driver... you want comfort in your "sportscar", and would be willing to compromise performance, weight, and agility to get luxury. Lets face it, most modern German cars are geared more towards luxury than performance (excluding the Porsche GT2/GT3/GT3RS/CGT). Not that luxury is a bad thing (I own a 545i as my daily). But... luxury equals weight, and weight is no good for a true sportscar.

    You really have to admire the wonderful chassis of the S2000... it has none of the drawbacks of being a convertible; it is still lightweight, rigid, no scuttle shake, and is one of the most agile cars sold today (even though it is a 5 year old design). It transmits every nuance of the road without becoming a jarring ride. A true enthusiast's car. You might say that the S2000 has a twitchy rear end, but I would love to twitch the S2000 on a tight race track, feeding in some opposite lock while the high revving powerplant is blaring in my ears. Your comparison of the S2000 to the Miata is a complement, as the Miata is a wonderful car (both in looks and in driving dynamics), regardless of the negative stereotypes that popular culture has applied to it. The Miata, afterall, was the spring board to the modern roadster. The S2000 is not for everyone. It takes a skilled driver to drive it to its full potential. Average drivers may be happier in a Boxster S, as it is more driver friendly... a "safer" car.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    It's all relative, Shifty.

    I'm now in a fortunate financial position where a Ferrari 430, if I could actually get one, would put less of a dent in my net worth than the Honda S2000 did in 2001. But, in my brief discussions with the Ferrari sales manager, I was immediately turned off by his indication that 8,000 miles a year over 3-4 years would "kill" the resale value of a 430. The highest mileage 360 they had taken in on trade was about 25,000 miles and it took a $30k hit compared to models with under 10,000 miles. So the ultimate sports car is supposed to sit in one's garage 95% of the time??

    I don't disagree with you that the Boxster S and S2000 go about there business in very different ways. Frankly, I would have thought you, the far more discerning definer of "sports car" might have said anything with a redline of under 7,500 doesn't qualify. The Boxster falls nearly 1,000 rpm short. The new BMW M5 exceeds it by over 500 rpm. And on this particular dimension of sports car-i-ness, the S2000 has much more in common with the Ferrari 430 than does the Boxster.

    I doubt I will buy another S2000 just to prove my point. Been there, done that. But I sure hope that the performance and "feel" of the new 280 hp Boxster S impresses me a lot more than the 2002 model did. It was a fine sportscar, but only matched the performance of the S2000 and did not have the fun to drive factor of the higher redline or tighter, crisper gearbox.

    P.S. Your theory that "people with some money in their pockets are not stupid" is worth reconsidering. There are a lot of folks in my area with more money than brains. And although my own net worth has gone up about ten fold in the last four years, I could only wish that I was actually smarter than before.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Hahaha..."everybody is a genius in a bull market" as they say.....

    I think some of you are reflecting your own sensitivity about Honda....if you read my post I didn't say one bad thing about the S2000 and only commented that a) the styling is somewhat derivative, and b) that it "feels" like a Japanese car....which it does to me....who else's feelings can I tap into directly? I've driven great Japanese cars, especially EVOs where I have a lot of seat time, and they also feel just like Japanese cars feel -- by that I mean the engine note, ergonomics, even the smell. You could blindfold me and put me in either a Corvette, Honda S2000 or a Boxster and I'd know in ten seconds which one I was in. Of course, I can't drive like that---well maybe on an airfield or at Burning Man or something....LOL!!

    Anyway, I am sorry if you are touchy about such mild criticisms, but giving that they represent my subjective opinions about how things "feel", I think they are defensible. Also you just blew right by my far more severe criticism of how the 997 feels to me. I was nicer to Honda than Porsche and you slap me for being rotten to Honda. My jaw dropeth mightily :P

    Not only that, but how cars "feel" are MAJOR factors in the buying process of sports cars, as we've seen time and time again in this forum.

    I mean really, think about it. A company say like Porsche makes a certain type of car for 40 years---you don't think there is strong genetic material in the product? I do. And S2000s have Honda genetic material in them. That's why they feel Japanese. I am driving not just a 2005 Honda, but 30 years of Honda in America.

    As for habitat's comment:

    " But I sure hope that the performance and "feel" of the new 280 hp Boxster S impresses me a lot more than the 2002 model did"

    I think it will. All cars improve. I hated the old S2000 transmission and I didn't like the power peaks at all. I felt like I was driving a big motorcycle with a very light flywheel. Had fun but wouldn't drive one every day. Now I hear the 2005 has ironed out some of this. So I also need to take another spin someday.

    Oh, there is no ideal sportscar that will win our hearts forever...I've looked all my life (sigh).
  • speeds2muchspeeds2much Member Posts: 164
    Ultimatedriver, your comparison of the 993 Turbo vs the 997 explains to me why many hang onto their 993s...it's not just a matter of nostalgia. I haven't driven a Boxster S since 2001, and expect the wider track with the 05 update makes the 997 premium even less justified. That said, I can appreciate the selling point of having the rear jump seats. For those with small kids, it's a binary outcome, really.

    BTW, on the S2000, I actually like the front's wedge styling. Looks great coming down the road. The rear is way too generic for my tastes. But overall, it's one fine sports car and I wouldn't fault anyone for choosing an S2000 over a Boxster S. The Honda name has reverse snob appeal, too. The Boxster's main rational selling point, imo, is space (both storage and interior). Other advantages over the Honda would be torque, engine sound, interior quality and winter capability. But for a 3-season open-top car with an all-out personality, the Honda's hard to beat, especially for someone who wants to be understated. Hmmm...except for the Elise, but I digress, that's a street-legal go-cart....

    ;)
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