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Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion

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Comments

  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    Ah ... "one thing you get from them is the unvarnished truth... "
    All depends on how you arrive at truth. The 0-60 I remember for the Z06 is 3.7 sec's while on Edmunds I find the base 911 at 4.5 approx. They came up with 4.3 vs. 4.4 for the two cars, 6/10th's slower for the Chevy and 1/10th
    faster for the Porsche. Ignoring HP the torque comparison is 470 vs. 295, and that would seem to be hard pressed to explain with the term truth. Might even be lack of skill but after three times at the track with my C5 coupe I was able to hit the factory 13.3 in the quarter and I'm not really too good. Maybe cupholders is the real issue ...
    Randy
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Why would a person need a cup holder for a water bottle? Just curious. I had a Miata and just wedged the bottle between seat and console area.
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    I'm with you still in the C5 since the depth of the one supposed cup holder is too shallow to be much use. Then again they don't let us take bottles on track so I don't get much use for it anyway. I'm sure the Miata is more fun on track too.
    Family weekend followed by another 3 days at Buttonwillow for the end of the month. Out of about 110 cars entered per day there should be about 10% Vettes which is higher than average from experience. Should be a challenge since we run the track in a different configuration each day with the first CW and then two days CCW. Saturday will be the fast config with my times down below 2:10's on street tires for the 3mi course.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,368
    the "definitive discussion" of sports cars and we're talking about cupholders? :sick: :sick:

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • heathnwgaheathnwga Member Posts: 1
    We just bought a 95 Mazda MX-6 LS for our son, it had a cold air intake installed on it. In order to get the car to pass inspection we had to remove it and install the orginal breather back on it. No she skips and cuts out like crazy when in gear and pullin down the road, it starts at about 1500 rmps. If it is in park you can rip it up to 5000rpms and she's smooth as can be. Anyone know what could be the problem? Any help would be greatly appreicated!! THANKS!!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I would disassemble and reassemble the whole thing again, slowly. Odds are you missed a vacuum tube or an electical connection.

    I saw a case where a friend worked on an intake for a Subaru and forgot one vacuum tube. It threw error codes and wouldn't even start!

    -juice
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    Stuff like this is hit and miss without data. However, if
    the ECU was reprogrammed or the car tuned with removed cold
    air intake it might be starved for air. Again, it's a guess
    without data.
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    So, got to spend another day at Laguna Seca last Monday with
    a group of other sports cars and what not. Since I had not
    signed up ahead of time I was hanging in the trailer waiting
    for sign in and heard the following:
    Aaron 'Do you need to run in separate groups?'
    Dad 'No, we both have cars.'
    Aaron 'Did you drive them up?'
    Son 'No, they are being delivered.'
    Check is written and I get to pay as well and get my wrist
    band. As I go back to my parking spot, where there are now
    6 Corvettes in a row, there is a semi hauler parked behind
    us. Full graphics with picture announcing: "Ferrari of
    Newport Beach" and the tail is open and what I think was
    the first of two Stradale (?) Challenge Ferrari's is being
    lowered on the lift platform. Wouldn't want to drive down
    ramps I guess. They had a driver in addition to the tech
    for the cars who was talking with the guy who trailered in
    his personal Ferrari track car who was coaching for Dad &
    Son. Ah, the simple life.

    As for the track, sunny morning and got within a few tenths
    of my PB for Laguna. Helped a few folks with the line, one
    who I passed in the first session but after I suggested a
    couple things was doing 2 sec's a lap faster than me by the
    third session. Beautiful winter day on track, gotta love
    CA between storms. I think there were 9 Vettes there out of
    about 80 cars total running in three groups.
    Randy
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Nice to hear from you, Randy. I could have sworn that was going to end with you passing Ferraris. ;-)
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    But now that I'm running in upper Intermediate or Advanced
    groups, I get passed much more than the reverse. The Cayman
    has become the bane of my track days as I hardly ever come
    across one that isn't really fast. I never went to look at
    LS last week for what tires one was running, but a black
    one blew by me after closing fast through the corkscrew.
    My street tire setup with a 3450# loaded platform will only
    go so fast around corners and where I seem to lose out more
    is with only 350HP on the straights. Amazing how many cars
    can pull me up the hill to turn 1 at LS. Oh well.

    The two Ferrari's were beautiful to see and as most know
    hearing all three going down the front straight fully wound
    out was glorious. Then again there was an old orange
    Pantera that had a Cleveland 351, I think, that I really
    prefer for sound, no accounting for taste.
    Randy

    Off to Thunderhill soon, I hope ...
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I have become interested in this brand and am considering for my next car but have some questions that I hope can be answered. It appears that dollar for dollar as in tech features, power, creature comfort etc, the P cars are significantly more expensive than the new 3 series and others for example. Is the premium price in the fact that it's a smaller company and thus the cost per vehicle is higher (no economy of scale), the prestige factor and marketing strategy,better quality and more hand workmanship or is the money in non-visible performance areas like suspension, steering etc.?
    Thank you for any input as this is something that I'd like to become educated in before my purchase (cayman S?)
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    I wasn't sure if this posted correctly.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,368
    I'm not sure if I understand your question. The new 3-Series is a wonderful car by all accounts but it is a Sport Sedan and nowhere near the pur sang sports car a Cayman is, you are comparing apples to oranges.

    Porsche generates the highest profit per car of any company in the industry. I'm not sure that would be true if Ferrari, Aston-Martin, Lamborghini etc. weren't owned by other larger companies.

    In any case high performance sports cars are very high priced, high profit items and only you can decide whether the additional performance and prestige are worth the premium prices they command.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    Hum. Well, based on pure numbers, you are not going to be able to justify the price premium for the porsche, especially when you take service and depreciation into account. A 335i is comparable to a cayman S in some performance metrics, is way cheaper to buy/own and can hold 4-5 people and luggage..

    But a porsche is in general just a riot to drive. It's fun, it's way overbuilt, and it's "special." You're paying for that extra 1/10th. Is it worth it? You can always ask that for any car, depends on your money and priorities.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    Exactly. And I take it that you are an owner? If so, I'd love to hear from you what that extra 1/10th is that you love so much. By the way, I think it's true for all cars that as you spend more you get less "tangible" value but and it's a big but, you get more emotional value and for those of us who love cars and driving, that's more than worth it. For example, having owned many premium cars, I can easily communicate what it is that has made them special to me.
    So tell me about the Porsche experience and smile factor. (It's one of the few brands I've yet to try)
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    Actually, no, i have a BMW. I'm not at the point right now where buying that extra 1/10 makes sense for me. Where i live the car would get banged up, and i have investment goals to hit...

    But as for your quesion, to me, a porsche feels like a bmw kicked up a notch or two. It's like comparing a bmw to a lexus--the lexus may have the same numbers, but you have more fun in the bmw; the car is more live, you feel more wired into the steering, throttle, brakes, and you can hit the turn a bit faster, etc.

    And yes, i agree there's definitely diminishing returns in cars, as with practically everything else.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Porsche has the pedigree to command those prices. A history of racing and leadership in automotive engineering.

    That's just a start, the cars have to be great else the rep would only carry them for a year or two.

    My buddy has a Boxster and it was a hoot. It had the best automatic transmission I've sampled in my life, by far. They went the extra mile to engineer that trans to basically read the driver's mind.

    So, to the people that can afford it, it's worth every penny, yes.

    Now, speaking from a practical stand point, you tend to see diminishing returns as you spend more to get more.

    A $20k car tends to be much better than a $15k car. Step up from $20 to $25k and you get smaller improvements. To $30k and again, smaller gains.

    So it's hard for a practical person (myself included) to understand why pay $50 grand for a Boxster when a $25k Miata is plenty fun enough.

    -juice
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,368
    BMW has the highest margins of any of the big sedan makers.
    There are lots of people who think the high prices of 3-series sedans are not justified by any concrete advantage over competitors from Lexus, Inifinti, Acura and Audi to name a few.

    Let me hasten to say as a BMW owner, I am not one of them. ;)

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    Porsche has the pedigree to command those prices. A history of racing and leadership in automotive engineering.
    That's just a start, the cars have to be great else the rep would only carry them for a year or two.
    My buddy has a Boxster and it was a hoot. It had the best automatic transmission I've sampled in my life, by far. They went the extra mile to engineer that trans to basically read the driver's mind.


    Porsche has what pedigree to command what prices? Last time I checked, the car below had a 4-cylinder that was also used in the AMC Gremlin, an engine that generated a whole 110 hp-, a 0-60 sprint of 10 seconds and retailed for an astonishing $10,000--the same price as the 205 hp, 250 ft/lbs, V8 Chevrolet Corvette!

    image

    I owned the 924. I bought it for about $1,500, the same used car price as a Honda Prelude although I went with the Porsche since it had the better displays.
    Still, $10K new for that? The same price got this in 1984:

    image

    Porsche is pulling the same gimmicks, even now. A Porsche Boxster, which competes in the same class as the Miata MX-5's, Pontiac Solstice GXP's and Honda S2000's, commands nearly $50,000!!!

    And Porsceh consistently loses in endurance races such as 24-hours at LeMans!

    Where's the "pedigree" to which you refer?
    ...boxster with automatic transmission is a "hoot." lol...
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    If Porsche can command that money, why not?

    I've driven Porsches on-track as a track instructor and they are far and beyond most other cars out on the road, stock to stock in terms of sports car ability.

    -mike
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    The two Ferrari's were beautiful to see and as most know
    hearing all three going down the front straight fully wound
    out was glorious.


    I can't see how you think Ferrari's are beautiful, unless, of course, you think a Toyota Camry is beautiful...

    image

    image

    I know it's hard to tell, but the first car is the Camry and the second car is the Ferrari...
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    If Porsche can command that money, why not?
    I've driven Porsches on-track as a track instructor and they are far and beyond most other cars out on the road, stock to stock in terms of sports car ability.


    Mike, why on God's Green Earth would anybody want to take a Porsche on a track? The 'Ring I can understand, but a track?
    I can't see a putt-putt like a Boxster or Cayman which has less power than most V6 family sedans 'racing' on a race track.

    Ferrari F430 certainly and Z06 definately but a Porsche?
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    BMW has the highest margins of any of the big sedan makers.
    There are lots of people who think the high prices of 3-series sedans are not justified by any concrete advantage over competitors from Lexus, Inifinti, Acura and Audi to name a few.


    The high price of BMDubya is not justified!
    I mean, the BMW 3-Series is little more than a European taxi. The difference between the two is the American-spec 3-Series has a vinyl interior (not even real leather!), a 6-cylinder engine and about $30,000 increase in the sticker price; the Euro-spec 3-Series costs their taxi fleets $14,000.

    About the only advantage to the 3-Series is flat-out acceleration but then again, that's why the 3-Series is so popular in America. That's all Americans care about. Why do you think NASCAR is so popular in this country? I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see the NASCAR parking lots cram-packed to the rafters with BMW 3-Series cars, since Americans are about as refined as the vinyl siding in the BMW that rubs the butts of the Americans driving them...
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Mike, why on God's Green Earth would anybody want to take a Porsche on a track? The 'Ring I can understand, but a track?
    I can't see a putt-putt like a Boxster or Cayman which has less power than most V6 family sedans 'racing' on a race track.

    Ferrari F430 certainly and Z06 definately but a Porsche?


    Wow, I guess I'm a real idiot then! I road race a 1994 Subaru Impreza Turbo. As for a Z06? Haaa, with my Legacy GT Wagon I usually lap those guys at Watkins in the spring and fall when it's nice and cold and damp out.

    I actually rarely see any Ferraris or Z06s racing on US tracks. Here and there you see em but the majority are Miatas, Hondas, Acuras, Nissans, Mustangs, BMWs.

    Here's a pic of my racecar...

    image
    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Boy you know how to pick 'em, at least show a pic of a C5 or a C6.

    C4 was a weak example of a Corvette. My brother-in-law buys and sells those, he's owned 3. I never understood the appeal.

    C5/C6 on the other hand...
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,368
    Mike, why on God's Green Earth would anybody want to take a Porsche on a track? The 'Ring I can understand, but a track?
    I can't see a putt-putt like a Boxster or Cayman which has less power than most V6 family sedans 'racing' on a race track.

    Ferrari F430 certainly and Z06 definately but a Porsche?


    You are really showing your complete ignorance of what sports cars and tracking them is all about. Even if it were true that the 250 HP of the base Boxster/ Cayman were less than "most V6 family sedans" they would still be miles ahead in such track essentials as power-to-weight, balance cornering and braking.
    Tracking isn't about power, it's about wringing the most out of a car and sports car cognoscenti will tell you the little Porsches have more "most" than most other cars. Our friend Shifty said it best when he said "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow".

    If you'd ever seen a Mini-Cooper or an Alfa GTV scoot around a 427 'Vette at Lime Rock or Laguna Seca you'd know what I meant.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You are really showing your complete ignorance of what sports cars and tracking them is all about. Even if it were true that the 250 HP of the base Boxster/ Cayman were less than "most V6 family sedans" they would still be miles ahead in such track essentials as power-to-weight, balance cornering and braking.
    Tracking isn't about power, it's about wringing the most out of a car and sports car cognoscenti will tell you the little Porsches have more "most" than most other cars. Our friend Shifty said it best when he said "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow".

    If you'd ever seen a Mini-Cooper or an Alfa GTV scoot around a 427 'Vette at Lime Rock or Laguna Seca you'd know what I meant.


    Well put. Another thing that I like to adhere to is "In order to finish FIRST, first you must FINISH" I can't tell you how many positions we have moved up during races due to attrition from cars that are fast, but have mechanical issues and our "slow" car passes them while they are sitting in the pits....

    -mike
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    Boy you know how to pick 'em, at least show a pic of a C5 or a C6.
    C4 was a weak example of a Corvette. My brother-in-law buys and sells those, he's owned 3. I never understood the appeal.


    The reason I picked the C4 was that the Porsche 924's were selling at roughly the same time the C4's went on sale. Remember, both the C4 and the 924 were selling for $10,000 at about the same time.

    I would have failed to get my point across if I said, "In 1983 you could have wasted your money on a $10,000 924 if you saved up the $35,000 that in 1997 would fetch you a great C5..."
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    You are really showing your complete ignorance of what sports cars and tracking them is all about. Even if it were true that the 250 HP of the base Boxster/ Cayman were less than "most V6 family sedans" they would still be miles ahead in such track essentials as power-to-weight, balance cornering and braking.
    Tracking isn't about power, it's about wringing the most out of a car and sports car cognoscenti will tell you the little Porsches have more "most" than most other cars. Our friend Shifty said it best when he said "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow".


    My, don't we all suffer from the 'underdog' syndrome on this message board!
    (The 'underdog syndrome' was suffered from the Toyota fanboys back during the 90's because Toyota was way behind the greedy capitalist pigs at GM in terms of revenue generation. What's funny is now that Toyota is the greedy capitalist pig, and at #1, the underdogs are still behind Toyota for some reason--they should have defected to GM, but then I digress...)

    Truth be told, cars that are 'well-balanced' or that 'handle like a surgical scalpel' or (the one I hate the most) have "telepathic steering" are suitable for curvy road corses ("the Twisties") only.
    ("Telepathic steering"? What's next? An optional Ouiji board? Crystal ball shifters instead of cue ball shifters?).

    Handling takes second-place on the track. That's why cars like the Z06 or rear-engined 911's rule at the track, but feel cumbersome or otherwise unwieldy at the road course. mid/rear cars like the Cayman and mid-engine econo-boxes like the Boxster will fare well on the road course, because they feel lighter than they really are, thus, inspiring driver confidence.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Handling takes second-place on the track. That's why cars like the Z06 or rear-engined 911's rule at the track, but feel cumbersome or otherwise unwieldy at the road course. mid/rear cars like the Cayman and mid-engine econo-boxes like the Boxster will fare well on the road course, because they feel lighter than they really are, thus, inspiring driver confidence.

    Oh you mean the DRAG STRIP. Then I agree, the Z06 will be faster.

    As I've stated, how many road course miles have you driven or instructed at? I have many many years at the road courses and time and time again the Z06 is passed easily by more nimble, far superior handling cars. My own 05 Legacy GT at Watkins Glen has passed tons and tons of Z06s over the years.

    -mike
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    Oh you mean the DRAG STRIP. Then I agree, the Z06 will be faster.
    As I've stated, how many road course miles have you driven or instructed at? I have many many years at the road courses and time and time again the Z06 is passed easily by more nimble, far superior handling cars. My own 05 Legacy GT at Watkins Glen has passed tons and tons of Z06s over the years.


    Mike, it seems an introduction to Automotive Racing 101 is in tall order.
    The Corvette is a sportscar, not a musclecar nor a dragster, thus it belongs on a track and not a drag strip as you suggest.
    Secondly, anyone who loves their Subaru can register their car at any amateur racing event; there's a racing event held here in San Diego at Qualcomm Stadium and all kinds of cars are there.
    History has shown the Corvettes race the shortest lap times at this track (at or around 54 seconds) with cars like the Mazda RX8's finishing around very suprising 56-57 seconds (great-looking cars on this track, I might add!).
    Cars like yours usually finish very late, around 65 seconds and such.

    No one in their right mind would accept your fantasy that your car can remotely touch a stock Vette let alone a Z06; your car would lose to any stock vette save for the C1's and C2's. Even if your car is heavily modified, you cannot bypass the laws of physics, Mike. -- The Subaru Legacy GT-- heavy, pondering, 250 hp near sport sedan that retails around Honda Accord territory ($25,000) cannot compete against a toned-down version of a podium-finishing endurance racer that won virtually every world-renown endurance racing circuit it ever participated in (24-hr at LeMans; ALMS). Your car is going against a car that routinely defeats Porsche GT-class and Viper GTS-class racing cars.

    Heavy, numb, $25,000 3-Series contender with a steel chassis, 250 horsepower turbo'ed I4, standard family sedan clutch, .86g of grip on the skidpad and foregone technology versus a near-exotic that has carbon fiber panels, all-aluminum chassis construction, an Empire State-moving engine with 500 horsepower and 490 ft/lbs of torque that's arguably the most tuned powerplant in the industry and 19" tires that runs on EMT tires that can pull well over .95g's of grip, magnesium engine cradle and an illustrius racing history on the world's endurance racing circuits?
    I'd go with the latter...

    Mike, you can register your Subaru in an amateur, local racing event and actually race it in a class, but in the end it's still just a Subaru.
  • hotrod81hotrod81 Member Posts: 16
    When you say "track", do you mean something like Mid-Ohio?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    Think... all left turns.. :(

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  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    paisan: "As I've stated, how many road course miles have you driven or instructed at? I have many many years at the road courses and time and time again the Z06 is passed easily by more nimble, far superior handling cars. My own 05 Legacy GT at Watkins Glen has passed tons and tons of Z06s over the years."

    If you've driven that many miles on track (road course) then you should know that
    passing anything is a function of driver, not the vehicle. I pass Z06's in my C5
    coupe, even a few C6 Z06s, so what? I only have 5 years on track and 2 doing
    some volunteer work in the right seat but I pass GT3 911s fairly regularly, again
    so what? If the driver doesn't have the experience it isn't a fair match. There is
    one particular Honda Civic that I remember seeing going by me at Laguna Seca last
    year, great driver in a well set up car, boosted.

    If you run with groups that allow timing at road courses then you will see 911's and
    C5Z06's at the top of most charts. The C6Z is in another world altogether. My
    C5 coupe on street tires ($40k/$45k new) is usually faster than even the Boxster S
    on DOT-Rs, at least one has never passed me, yet, and they run $40k-$90k if you
    believe Edmunds. At the track $ usually translates to pretty good potential but
    some cars are a better bang for the buck and the C5 is one, then again the 4wd
    Evo and WRX cars are probably better and the S2000 is great.

    Here on the left coast, at least at Sears Point, Laguna Seca, Thunderhill, Reno-
    Fernley and Buttonwillow what you are likely to see on track is as much a function
    of who is running the event as anything else. Some groups started as single marque
    clubs and expanded to run events for all marques but still get large showings from
    their original roots. We have had two all Corvette events at Thunderhill in the past
    year and I just got back from going to Spring Mt. Raceway in Pahrump to instruct
    at a Corvette Museum event that pulled in Vette's from all over the country. Expect
    to see more Vettes at a track near you, and when the drivers learn to get around
    quickly, don't be surprised at being passed. Then, of course, I'm sure it will be the
    HP and not the driver that made the difference.
    Randy
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    andys120: "Shifty said it best when he said "It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow". "

    Then again, it might just be more fun to drive a fast car, really fast!

    At the Corvette Museum track event a couple weekends ago at Spring Mt. Raceway
    in Pahrump, NV there were close to 50% C6Z06's of the cars entered. Really a
    street legal race car and everyone at least stayed out of the walls and tire barriers,
    if not always staying on track. For $75k you get exotic car performance and in a
    package that is amazingly durable. There were 9 cars from GM there with over
    20 staff folks and a few former professional drivers and the cars were going out
    in 4 of the 5 sessions repeatedly during the day. Of course a couple techs were
    swapping in new brake pads at the end of day one since it seems some folks were
    harder on the brakes than others.
    Randy
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Neither car impresses me, so the point still didn't get across. ;)
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    No one asked those key questions of who was driving and what the conditions were.

    I never said that on a dry track I ran past the vettes. However in the cold and/or rainy weather often found here in the Northeast, I routinely pass equal drivers in the their Z06s.

    While the vette is a nice car, I still think that porsches are far better stock to stock.

    As for racing in REAL races where $$$$ is no object, it's anyone's guess and the correct amount of $ will yield the winner no matter what car you are driving.

    I've driven stock Z06s on track as well as Porsches and the balance of a porsche is very difficult to match, this balance will yield you faster lap times on a consistent basis.

    Maybe on the west coast where it's sunny and dry all the time and the tracks are perfectly smooth with no gravel or imperfections, a vette would win but in the real world or in a place where there are environmental variables, a more balanced car would be my preference.

    As for racing, everything is setup by classing, no matter what you race someone will have a faster car in a faster class.

    -mike
    Certified Track Instructor
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    paisan Mike, what conditions do you look for when you sign up for a track day?
    Cold and rainy or nice and sunny. We get our share of rain here in Northern Calif.,
    as a matter of fact had a couple sessions yesterday in the wet at Sears Point
    raceway, Sonoma. And yes, the 4wd cars did wonderful things while they had the
    wet to play in, but when the track went nice again at lunch time it was another story.

    paisan: "Maybe on the west coast where it's sunny and dry all the time and the tracks are perfectly smooth with no gravel or imperfections, a vette would win but in the real world or in a place where there are environmental variables, a more balanced car would be my preference."

    Are you a host or a guy looking to stir up comment? I doubt Sears Point does much
    more than Watkins Glen to try and make the track nice for the two real races the
    Stock Car boys put on each year. And if you want gravel, try Reno-Fernley and
    Spring Mt. Raceway since both are set in Nevada. Most folks looking to run on
    a road course aren't looking for a Rally circuit, you may enjoy something different.

    As for balance, yesterday was a good view of wet and dry conditions at Sears Point.
    In the third session, advanced, I went out late and pulled up to the starter for a
    black flag to get a Miata off track. Got to pull out behind another Miata and we
    were both taking it easy as about 2/3 of the track was still pretty wet. As we got
    back to the starter there was another black flag. Yellows at each station up to
    turn 7 where she was waving it lazily, we weren't going too fast. Did the sweep
    and into the 8 esses and off the outside of 8a, 1/2 an esse before Jr. had his fire
    there sits a silver 911 with the driver and safety crew surveying the scraped off rear
    facia about 50 ft. off track where he had rear swiped the tire barrier. Think he might
    have lifted?

    The Vette C5 and C6's are about 50/50 or as close as you can get when corner
    weighting. Can you say that about the Porsches? Balanced? I do agree that they
    can be driven fast, but novices better take some time getting to that point or they
    are going to find out about balance.
    Randy

    Oh BTW, if the little plastic card from NASA and my work with Thunderhill Street
    School makes me certified, then I guess I could say the same. Mostly I think I
    sit in the right seat trying to keep folks out of walls, which is amazingly easy if you
    can teach them the line. Oh, and not to lift!
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I like to drive the tracks in the rain and cold, more real life :)

    I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, (pun intended) but as you noted earlier, driver is the #1 thing that will determine a faster car.

    You mentioned corner weighting, which would imply coilovers and a fairly modified car, I'm talking stock to stock.

    I've been instructing Racers, HPDEers, etc for many years, I've taught the classroom as well and race here in the Northeast with several organizations.

    Out West the instructional HPDEs are quite different than here on the East coast, that's fairly well known in the HPDE community. They are a lot more structured out here, similar to what you get in a Skip Barber School rather than an "open tracke session"

    To summarize, any car, in the hands of the proper driver will be faster or slower than another car in the hands of a less experienced driver. But my preference would be a more balanced car than a high HP RWD car on track. Brakes, handling and cost are all a factor in what to drive on track.

    -mike
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    paisan: " ... But my preference would be a more balanced car than a high HP RWD car on track. Brakes, handling and cost are all a factor in what to drive on track."

    Well we agree that it's the driver that counts. And I agree that cost, handling,
    power and brakes are all factors, if in slightly different order. My '02 C5 coupe was
    only $40k/$45k off the show floor depending on options in '01. That was comparable
    to the Boxster at the time at the low end but they option up quite a bit higher, and
    is comparable on track to base model 911s, which started at $75k at the time.
    Then again S2000s were less and with mods, especially tires can go faster than
    all of the above.

    Enjoy your break from racing over the winter. ;) Not that I'm going next week,
    but there are two groups that have Laguna Seca on M/T and Th/F, gotta love good
    weather. I would be interested in what you see as the greater structure in HPDE,
    I've never done it any place but here. I do have several classes at Russell Racing
    as well as several at what was then Bragg-Smith and is now Spring Mt. Motorsports
    School. Not all HPDE groups out this way run the same kinds of programs and
    there are many. NASA, Hooked on Driving, TrackMasters, Team Miata, Nor. Calif. Racing, Speed Ventures, Green Flag, Shelby Club, Checkered Flag, and Unlimited
    Laps which I've run with and then Alfa Romeo Owners, Audi Club, Club Z, Driving
    Concepts, Lapping Days, Pantera Owners, Touring Car Club and Volvo owners,
    which I've not joined in with yet. I'd be hard put to say there is one approach out
    this way. And by the way, the SCCA SF Region track at Thunderhill runs its own
    THHPDE or Street School that involves more class time than track time.
    Randy
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    Neither car impresses me, so the point still didn't get across.

    The problem with the Porsche is that while the Corvette--especially the C3's--was modeledafter the Great White shark, the 911 was modeled after a bullfrog.

    This:

    image

    Took its inspiration from this:

    image
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    paisan: " ... But my preference would be a more balanced car than a high HP RWD car on track. Brakes, handling and cost are all a factor in what to drive on track."

    Well we agree that it's the driver that counts. And I agree that cost, handling,
    power and brakes are all factors, if in slightly different order. My '02 C5 coupe was
    only $40k/$45k off the show floor depending on options in '01. That was comparable
    to the Boxster at the time at the low end but they option up quite a bit higher, and
    is comparable on track to base model 911s, which started at $75k at the time.
    Then again S2000s were less and with mods, especially tires can go faster than
    all of the above.

    Enjoy your break from racing over the winter.


    Oh I didn't list them in the order. But one of the things we always teach to students in our programs is if you can't afford to walk away from the car you are bringing to the track, you shouldn't be bringing it to the track because in general there is no insurance for your car (some policy's do cover but in recent years they've been backing away from that). It's cool to take your street car for the first few events, til you realize you want to drive 9/10ths, at that point getting something in the sub-$10k range is advisable in the event you ball it up.

    As mentioned, tires, suspension, driver all play key factors in what car will be faster on track.

    Yup we are into the winter blues now. All the tracks here are closed now til we go down to VIR for a 3hr Enduro in Feb, that's our winter break race and then we won't start again til late march/early april.

    -mike
  • chrmdomechrmdome Member Posts: 107
    Greetings:

    Opinions are like....... oh ya, ...in my humble opinion: I spent $99,949.85 out the door (cash sale, I am truely fortunate! )in Oct 2005 on my ordered 2006 C2S coupe. The VAST majority of Porsche owners never will experience the true potential of their cars, the VAST majority of Vet owners are likely in the same boat. I checked out the 2006 Corvettes and did not like the quality or fit of the interior. I own 2 Chevy products.. so I really do like Chevy. I was looking for a number of things in a sports car besides the fit and finish that Porsche offers. I have seen and driven Boxsters; they are built like a bank vault and a fine watch in one package.
    Almost every auto critic places the 997 S in a world class arena with the best, but the issue, besides the superior build quality of my 997 S , that really strikes me, is the history, the legend, the heritage that surrounds Porsche. IMO Porsche defines a " sportscar ".; the 997 is a daily use sportscar. I will never drop my clutch at 5000rpm to do a 3.9 sec. 0-60 mph, but someone has and he did. There have been chronic Vet/ 911 comparisons which fall on my deaf ears. If you enjoy your Vet , more power to you..enjoy. I love my 997 S for many reasons.. it was a dream of mine for years......

    Chromedome
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    There's a Porsche ad running in Wall Street Journals lately about why Porsche has their ignition keys on the left of the steering wheel.
    The ad said, "When we started racing at 24-Hours of Lemans, we knew that every second counted. Our race car was vastly underpowered and did not have the power of the other cars, so realising how iportant time was, we put the ignition switch on the left side of the steering wheel, where it would be more accessible to the driver, freeing up his right hand for steering and engaging first gear. This is the level of attention and detail we give our cars, because in racing, every second counts."

    Now my question is this: Wouldn't Porsche actually win at LeMans if they stopped wasting their money and time on ignition switches and actually do something unprecidented and unthought of, like add horsepower to their cars?
  • hotrod81hotrod81 Member Posts: 16
    You could make your "wasting time" comment about any component on any car, or for that matter, any human activity. ie, if you are not working on horse power, then it is a waste of time. I suppose that all the other engineers and marketers should just quit. On the other hand, if you just want Porsches to have more HP, many would agree. I wouldn't mind a few more ponies in my Carrera. But do I blame this on the ignition switch? Nope.
  • andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,368
    Now my question is this: Wouldn't Porsche actually win at LeMans if they stopped wasting their money and time on ignition switches and actually do something unprecidented and unthought of, like add horsepower to their cars?

    They did! Read the whole thing. It says their cars were under powered when they started racing. Once they started seriously making purpose built endurance racers in the late 60s and early 70s the HP count went up dramatically and they won at LeMans using the mighty 917 and kept winning for many years afterward. Porsche has more wins at LeMans than any other marque.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    "They did! Read the whole thing. It says their cars were under powered when they started racing. Once they started seriously making purpose built endurance racers in the late 60s and early 70s the HP count went up dramatically and they won at LeMans using the mighty 917 and kept winning for many years afterward. Porsche has more wins at LeMans than any other marque."

    Porsche may have more wins at LeMans, but Porsche has also been racing that circuit since like around WWII, so it only stands to reason that they will have the most wins--they've been around the longest.
    Since the Corvette engaged in this prestigious endurance racing event, it won more podium finishes than anything else, regardless of class!
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Audi's LMP car may be the only exception.

    "Once they started seriously making purpose built endurance racers in the late 60s."

    You mean to tell me that "every second counts" in a race car that wasn't "purpose built" to begin with?
  • chrmdomechrmdome Member Posts: 107
    Greetings:

    Here is my advise/opinion. If you want to pick nits go check out some little preschoolers neck. You will never go past 100mph in your Corvette nor I in my Porsche. Too many comparisons are made between a rear engined 355 hp Porsche Carrera with a front engine 500hp Corvette. They are 2 different cars made for 2 different reasons. American muscle vs. European grace Subaru is made for off road racing, thus most models are 4 wheel drive. Porsche has raced in so many rally style races and has produced victory after victory. I would love to see a Corvette sliding aound some wet , curvey , pot hole filed , dirt road in the Black Forest. A lot of mud would be slung but no forward movement would be detectable. Different cars for different reasons and seasons. A corvette at the Tagra Floria...come on... by the way don't forget to grab your gold neck chain and the fake chest hair, your silk shirt opened to the navel,a pack of Camels and...oh ya grab Barbie too..because that is the perception of Corvette

    Chromedome
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You will never go past 100mph in your Corvette nor I in my Porsche.

    Why would you buy either of them then? I routinely take my 1994 Subaru Legacy with stock drivetrain and 150k miles on it up over 100mph, heck over 120mph at the track, as do other Porsche and Corvette drivers that I race/HPDE with.

    -mike
  • chrmdomechrmdome Member Posts: 107
    Greetings

    Paisan.. the vastly hugh majority of Porsche owners don't track them.. Here in California anyone caught speeding even 1 mph over 100mph are given the" go directly to jail card ". I do not have the skill nor the intention to track my 997 but I do enjoy the hell out of driving the car , detailing it and just sitting in it

    Chao

    Chromedome
This discussion has been closed.