Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion

paisan · December 2007

You should check out NASA and other car clubs that offer HPDEs which are High Performance Driving Events. You get both track time with an instructor as well as classroom time, which will give you some very very valuable skills for both on track and on-road driving. Well worth the ~$150-200 for the day to be able to open up your car w/o worrying about cops etc. The skills you learn will also improve your on-road safety. I know that after having done HPDEs I was a far more alert and safe driver on the road. Now I instruct students on track and it's great to see them have a blast and really learn how to drive the machines they spent so much hard earned money on.

-mike

chrmdome · December 2007

Mike:

Thank you sir, you know, I might just do that . I have been fishing and golfing for the last 10 years and have been thinking about another "fun " thing. I might just do that, thanks

Chromedome

starrow68 · December 2007

chrmdome: "You will never go past 100mph in your Corvette nor I in my Porsche."

As Mike noted, it is easy to get on track. I also instruct for several groups and
have been on 4 tracks here in CA and two just across the border in NV. At the
SCCA Buttonwillow track when we do configuration 25 CCW, even my stock LS1
coupe gets just past 135mph. That's the fastest course I have driven, but at Sears
Point I get between 100 and 110 at four places each lap which requires a great
amount of continued concentration to keep up the pace for 20 minutes or so. It
has helped my street driving since I am much more aware of what is going on
around me and less worried about what I'm doing in my own car. I know what gear
I'm in and which I would select if I needed to down shift at any given speed.
Laguna Seca has two groups out this week and Thursday / Friday is sold out but
always fun to watch.
Randy

BTW, I agree that comparing 355hp 911's to 500hp Vettes isn't to meaningful, but
since I have a 350hp C5 coupe and get on track with 911's all the time, the chance
to pass something that cost 50% more is worth a smile or two.

starrow68 · December 2007

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=123805

Interesting take on the latest offering. I'm not sure I would encourage the idea of
even a slight drift on freeway onramps and even the best stability control will some
times lose it. Take it to the track if you want to find limits.

As for comparisons, Edmunds provides the link to the Carrera S from the spec page
for the 2008 Vette. $56k vs. $86k as tested and since everyone scoffs at 0-60
times, lets ignore that. There is always the skid pad .95 vs. .92 with the Vette on
GY EMT's and the the Porsche is on Michelin PS II's. How does that leaf spring
pull that off when they have about the same curb weight according to the specs?
Did I say 50% more, earlier? Guess I was being nice.
Randy

ateixeira · December 2007

Even though it uses leaf springs, the rear suspension is still indy.

I've heard that be debated a dozen times.

pmc4 · December 2007

Gentlemen, to get an idea of chrmdome's thinking about his Porsche, just go to the Porsche 911 forum and click on my (read only), "The Ignition is on the Left" post. Entertainment in the extreme.

Anyway. Chromedome is unaware of Corvette's chassis architecture: The Corvette is a mid-engine sportscar; not a front-engine car (Technically, the Corvette is a "Mid/front engine" car, since the engine is located front of the driver, but behind the front axle, thus a mid-engine car. In like manner, something like the Porsche Cayman or Acura NSX is also a mid engine car but a mid/rear engine car, since the engine is located behind the driver, but before the rear axle; thus, a mid-engine car)

Also, garden variety Porsche models tend to have steel frames, iron engine components like iron connecting rods, lots of interior plastics and heavy, steel components used genorously elsewhere.
OTOH, the Corvette Z06 model tends to have carbon fiber chassis componentry, titanium engine components, hydroformed aluminum frames and composite suspension components. That's why the car has the world's most powerful natually-aspirated engine and the car weighs just 50 pounds more than a Honda S2000 (3,000 lbs versus 2,950 lbs) and wins comparison test after comparison test (Ferrari didn't even agree to enter their F430 in Road and Track's comparison test unless it was compared against the base $45,000 corvette and not the $70,000 Z06 and even then the Vette came in 2nd-place out of 5 cars) not to mention winning endurance race after endurance race.

And since the Porsche models are made out of iron and steel whereas the Corvette is carbon fiber and titanium, the Porsche is the muscle car here, while the Corvette is the envy of the automotive world.

fedlawman · December 2007

"the Corvette is the envy of the automotive world."

Only when Porsche and Ferrari develop their own cheap plastic interiors, notchy shifters, numb steering, and leaf-spring suspensions can they cease envying the exalted Chevrolet.

paisan · December 2007

Dec 06, 2007 12:45 am)

"the Corvette is the envy of the automotive world."

Only when Porsche and Ferrari develop their own cheap plastic interiors, notchy shifters, numb steering, and leaf-spring suspensions can they cease envying the exalted Chevrolet.

Well put. To each his own though. Sometimes people are ledgends in their own mind

This debate is not likely to get solved here or anywhere. Some people like the vette, some don't. Then again I get into debates on a few hi-performance boat boards that I'm on about how buying a non-american truck is anti-american, when in fact a lot of "american" trucks are made in Canada and Mexico, whereas a lot of the "japanese" trucks are made in the US.

-mike

fedlawman · December 2007

True.

For the record, I like the Corvette a lot. I just believe that you get what you pay for, and there's a reason why the Vette "only" costs $45,000.

andys120 · December 2007

for as long as there have been Corvettes so it is not likely to be resolved any time soon. I must've spent half my college years ('61-'65) arguing the merits of Big Healeys and Jags vs.'Vettes (back then Porsches were just oddball little cars with the motor in the wrong end.).

I like Corvettes and admire their current commitment to balance and lightness but I think I'm too Euro-oriented to ever buy one but that could change if the ever get the fuel consumption down to a reasonable level for a world of $3.00+ gasoline.

starrow68 · December 2007

pmc4: " ... while the Corvette is the envy of the automotive world. "

And I thought I was pro Vette. However, I'm pretty sure the C6Z is closer to 3130#
than 3000 if memory serves. I wish that Grassrootsmotorsports had posted the
results of the Ultimate Trackcar Challenge for reference, they are in the Nov. issue.
A non-professional who built his car with his dad brought a C5Z into 2nd place
overall and 1st for class beating several exotics with pro drivers who were in the
upper class. There weren't too many Porsches to be seen but the 924S did win
it's class for smaller engines and non-racing tires. Tommy Archer in his Euro-spec
Viper Comp Coupe did 1:28.4 on the VIR 2.2m north course while the Vette did
1:31.1 and the next fastest of the pro shop entries came in at 1:33.8. Quite a
spread. The 911 entry that was on the invite list seems to have been a no show.
Randy

starrow68 · December 2007

andys120: " ... but that could change if the ever get the fuel consumption down to a reasonable level ... "

I guess you would have to define reasonable, but right now my daily driver shows
about 23mpg and that is lots of mile to 4 mile freeway jaunts which are more
acceleration than cruising. When I go to the track, 100+ miles I usually get 27mpg
if I keep it around the speed limit. I did have one trip last year in some rain, good to
keep 275 front tires pretty slow in the puddles and came in with just above 30 mpg
for the trip. A 6sp with .5/1 top gear in a C5 will be doing less than 1500 rpm at
65mph.
Randy

chrmdome · December 2007

Greetings:

Build quality and material quality/ fit/finish aside ( to me it's far worth the money ), it is interesting, relative to your explanation of the archaic frame/iron engine componets that the Porsche 997 uses etc. , that the Porsche engineers are able to keep the comparitive 0-60 times, braking etc, etc, so close , sometimes beating , sometimes not, that of the Corvette. Like I said in a past post, it would be really interesting to see the Corvette on a dirt rally tract in the Black Forest in Germany spiting a lot of mud but with no forward movement, or at a Targa Florio type road race....few " straight lines " The Porsche was built for different reasons for different seasons and with different engineering. How a 355 hp machine , rear engined , auto can post such comparitive times/statistics with that of a same weight if not lighter 500 hp auto is quite compelling on the engineering side of things. It cost more because of the materials, research , high cost of build and the Euro/Dollar values...and the overseas transport.The American mags seem to just love fueling this debate.... Chevy seems to be a heavy advertiser in " Road and Track " No Duh! One other thing I have noticed, it just seems, that the Corvette guys are always bringing up the comparisons. I don't go on the Corvette forums and post my feelings about Porsche.....I really don't care. Enjoy your car, I'll enjoy mime...by the way Porsche AG is the number "1" most profitable, successful auto maker EVER. GM has lost more money over the last 10 years than you could stuff in the superdome.....wonder why??

Chromedome

chrmdome · December 2007

Yo:

Yes , and by the way the " little black car " in the picture posted is an early VW...we all know the success story behind that company. Porsche AG , also by the way, is a major shareholder in Volkswagen...WHY????? Because Porsche AG has been so successful, knowing a good investment when they see one. No one in their right mind would look at Hitler as something positive , I see no humor there!... the example was used to show the heritage and history behind the Porsche company. That aside, the racing victories stand alone as testament to the engineering and world wide appeal of Porsche that many have labeled (the 911-997) as the worlds' premier sportscar, US magazines among them. And the debate drags on, except there are very few people who own Porsches posting on the Corvette forums.....everyone is always comparing their cars to Porsche. Obviously Porsche is the standard to which many others must compare. Nuff said!

Chromedome

starrow68 · December 2007

chrmdome: " ... How a 355 hp machine , rear engined , auto can post such comparitive times/statistics with that of a same weight if not lighter 500 hp auto is quite compelling on the engineering side of things. ... "

I think you missed a few beats. The comparisons were to the standard Vette, not
the Z06. You really should get out to a track some time and see what going around
a road course is all about, if you have a performance car, that is!

Randy

chrmdome · December 2007

Sirs:

Yes, you must be right.... " if you have a perfromance car that is". My 2006 997 C2S isn't a performance car? Some reports list 0-60mph times at 3.9 sec., much less all the world class braking, turning etc issues. Why is it that the Corvette guys are always looking to knock Porsche, everyone is always trying to compare the two? As a Porsche owner I have never looked for a comparison to the Corvette. When I got in my brothers 2006 Corvette the day he bought the car , things didn't fit correctly, the interior was plain... the fit and finish was not " world class " My 2006 C2S didn't have a stitch out of place. A car is more than an insturment to get from point a to point b fast. I have never looked at my C2S as transportation... I don't drive it to work.... I drive it to drive it .. as it has pleased myself and many other Porsche owners very well. Enjoy your Vette and quit looking for a comparison to Porsche to make you feel better. As the saying goes " There is no comparison " Porsche and I know that. The horse is dead so no sense beating it. I'm done... the point is I really don't care what the Corvette guys think.. please just enjoy your car as much as I do mine.
Chromedome

chrmdome · December 2007

Greetings:

And while we are on this subject , I invite all the 2007 Corvette owners to go to:
www.corvetteactioncenter.com and check out all the service bulletins. We are not talking Cds caught in the changer here. Enjoy and go ahead...compare yourself to Porsche as much as you'd like. Since 2004 the 997 has had basically zero problems. Since cars are man made... there will always be issues but as far as cars go ....the 997 is virtually error free. You Corvette guys are too much!

Chromedome

Chromedome

pmc4 · December 2007

I like Corvettes and admire their current commitment to balance and lightness but I think I'm too Euro-oriented to ever buy one but that could change if the ever get the fuel consumption down to a reasonable level for a world of $3.00+ gasoline.

This is the great crime with clever advertising agencies: They easily decieve people who are too unwilling to do any research.

Truth be told, gentlemen, the Corvette gets roughly the same gas mileage as the far weaker, smaller Honda S2000 convertible (16/24 versus 15/26 with 240 hp/160 ft/lbs versus 430 hp and 400 ft/lbs). Furthermore the story is the same with the Porsche Boxster: far weaker than the Vette, yet similar MPG figures.
It gets worse with Italians, of course, where they get like 10 mpg.

As much as the America haters would like to turn away from the truth, GM is currently on the forefront of asserting its technological leadership in environmentaly-friendly vehicles (Tahoe hybrid, Escalade hybrid, Saturn hybrid and the inevitable Chevrolet Volt). I know those of you who hate things that are from America or have an American-branded theme (GE, GM, Boeing) will NOT DO ANY RESEARCH into these hybrids GM is making. To do so means finding out that an American company is going to win the enviroment wars.
And unlike Toyota which is still stuck with First-Generation hybrid technology and will for some time to come, GM is willing to share its technology with other automakers at a reasonable price like BMW and Mercedes Benz (the Ford Escape hybrid doesn't count, since Toyota overcharged the technology to begin with, ensuring Toyota would be the only company with Synergy Drive).

pmc4 · December 2007

"And I thought I was pro Vette. However, I'm pretty sure the C6Z is closer to 3130#
than 3000 if memory serves. I wish that Grassrootsmotorsports had posted the
results of the Ultimate Trackcar Challenge for reference, they are in the Nov. issue.
A non-professional who built his car with his dad brought a C5Z into 2nd place
overall and 1st for class beating several exotics with pro drivers who were in the
upper class. There weren't too many Porsches to be seen but the 924S did win
it's class for smaller engines and non-racing tires. Tommy Archer in his Euro-spec
Viper Comp Coupe did 1:28.4 on the VIR 2.2m north course while the Vette did
1:31.1 and the next fastest of the pro shop entries came in at 1:33.8. Quite a
spread. The 911 entry that was on the invite list seems to have been a no show.
Randy"

The guy who posted this is your typical automotive enthusiast: Thorough knowledge of motorsports, an obvoius and passionate racing hobby and a penchant for racing Corvettes...

pmc4 · December 2007

Greetings:

Build quality and material quality/ fit/finish aside ( to me it's far worth the money ), it is interesting, relative to your explanation of the archaic frame/iron engine componets that the Porsche 997 uses etc. , that the Porsche engineers are able to keep the comparitive 0-60 times, braking etc, etc, so close , sometimes beating , sometimes not, that of the Corvette. Like I said in a past post, it would be really interesting to see the Corvette on a dirt rally tract in the Black Forest in Germany spiting a lot of mud but with no forward movement, or at a Targa Florio type road race....few " straight lines " The Porsche was built for different reasons for different

Dude. You keep bring up riding a Corvette in the Black Forest or something when Car and Driver magazine just got done running a Vette entirely thru the State of Alaska thru mud, water, gunk, bumps and boulders, and the car returned without a single problem.

...Which is a suprise considering the car is made entirely of exotic materials and Porsche models seem to made of "durable" materials like iron and steel.

pmc4 · December 2007

Replying to: pmc4 (Dec 05, 2007 9:45 pm)

Yo:

Yes , and by the way the " little black car " in the picture posted is an early VW...we all know the success story behind that company. Porsche AG , also by the way, is a major shareholder in Volkswagen...WHY????? Because Porsche AG has been so successful, knowing a good investment when they see one. No one in their right mind would look at Hitler as something positive , I see no humor there!... the example was used to show the heritage and history behind the Porsche company. That aside, the racing victories stand alone as testament to the engineering and world wide appeal of Porsche that many have labeled (the 911-997) as the worlds' premier sportscar, US magazines among them. And the debate drags on, except there are very few people who own Porsches posting on the Corvette forums.....everyone is always comparing their cars to Porsche. Obviously Porsche is the standard to which many others must compare. Nuff said!

Lol, chromedome please realise that Porsche almost went BK early 1990's because of masterpieces like the 924 that shared it's 100 hp engine with the AMC Gremlin (Google if you don't believe), or the 944 that belted out an astounding 140 hp engine and ripped thru the 1/4-mi at 16 seconds at like 60 MPH.

Econoboxes from Honda were running the quarter mile faster for crying out loud!...

The 928 (the only Porsche I like except the GT3) was like 90% Volkswagon.

As far as racing heritage, where is it? I mean, you can say that the Chicago Cubs have a baseball heritage but they never won the World Series. In like manner, Porsche has yet to consistiently beat Corvette at LeMans, even though the Vette is in the GTS class and the Porsche is in the GT class.

If you give a monkey a computer and extend his life by about 1 million years, by all probabilities, he will likely type out a Shakespareian play within that time.
If you give some guy an underpowered, underachieving "race" car and have him race it at LeMans for about 80 years, by probabilities, he'll probably win once or twice...

chrmdome · December 2007

Sir:

As presented, you rebut your own statement. Finally!.... Corvette has done something that Porsche has been doing for YEARS....taking the vehicle off road. Isn't it totally fantastic that Porsche can do with archaic materials such as iron and steel what it takes Corvette to do with fiberglass ( ya, an exotic material there... 60's technology like surfboards. ) I saw not exotic material inside my brothers Vette! Now carbon fiber could be called exotic..Did they take this little trek with a Porsche.. maybe next year. Anyways , I call you "Sir", you call me "Dude" An obvious illustration of one who drives a Corvette and one who drives a Porsche.Old porn star vs. business man. You still don't get it.. I don't care

Chromedome

pmc4 · December 2007

chromedome statistics:

15 posts regarding Porsche interior plastics.
9 posts about interior panel fit and finish/
8 posts about Porsche reliability.
2 vaguely worded posts about Porsche's handling charasteristics.
3 posts regarding the stitching of the leather in Porsche cars.

Only ONE post about Porsche acceleration times, braking times, use of exotic, lightweight componentry, tuning of the drivetrain and power to weight ratio/

ZERO posts about Porsche top speed. ZERO posts about Porsche fuel efficiency. ZERO posts about Porsche actually winning a comparison test against the Vette, except in the Porsche 911thread.

Pathetic... Just pathetic...

chrmdome · December 2007

Sir:

And quite astonishing, not only can a Corvette owner read.. he can count!...Well ..I WAS wrong.. not a single word about Porsche interior plastics... I have a full leather interior... thank you and... it's not the vinyl quality leather found in Corvette. 997 C2S: 184mph top... and where does that get us... in the slammer.....real world issues ....NOT! All the mags go back and forth between awarding Corvette or Porsche 1st or 2nd. The issue is... I don't care about Corevette .,.. why do you Corvette guys care so much about Porsche? Blah, Blah Blah.. now go grab your bleached blond girl friend and take a spin... because that is the perception of Corvette..9 inch pink nails an a pack of Camels. Enjoy

Chromedome

chrmdome · December 2007

Sir:

Just so that I understand... is laying down fiberglass " Eco Friendly"? I've been surfing all my life and resin is certainly not " Eco Friendly ", nor is fiberglass. American haters? I own a 2002 Chevy Tahoe and a 2007 Chevy Silverado. You have gone off issue...it's Corevette vs Porsche and,...by the way ..why are you over here on the Porsche forum ? Finally WE DON'T CARE!

Chromedome

pat · December 2007

Let's drop the personal comments, please. BTW, there's no need to engage in an argument if you feel the conversation isn't making sense. Not responding is the best way to get the discussion to go away.

fedlawman · December 2007

"GM is currently on the forefront of asserting its technological leadership in environmentaly-friendly vehicles (Tahoe hybrid, Escalade hybrid, Saturn hybrid and the inevitable Chevrolet Volt)...unlike Toyota which is still stuck with First-Generation hybrid technology and will for some time to come"

The brand new Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid gets 2 extra MPG (city) over the standard 4 cylinder Malibu and adds ZERO horsepower.

The Toyota Camry Hybrid gets 12 extra MPG (city) over the standard 4 cylinder Camry and adds 29 horsepower.

chrmdome · December 2007

Greetings.

I have a general question for all the Corvette owners who come on this forum. The easiest way to get someone PO'ed is to critique a man's dog car or wife. This being so, why do Corvette guys come on this form and critique Porsche? I would really doubt , knowing the Porsche crowd, that we would go to your forum and put down Corvette. They are different cars. I'm comfortable owning my 2006 C2S. It's a world class car in most everyones opinion..and I'm not of the nature to put down what you own...what gives? Let's bypass the BS reasons and give me one good reason why this is being done. If you put down my Porsche is does nothing but start the fire...

Chromedome

starrow68 · December 2007

chrmdome: " ... why do Corvette guys come on this form and critique Porsche? I would really doubt , knowing the Porsche crowd, that we would go to your forum and put down Corvette. "

I'm not doing a critique on a Porsche, I'm doing a comparison given info provided by
published sources, one being the owner of this forum, presumably. You ask why
someone comes on a Porsche forum, this is about sportscars, not just P cars, and
at least in my world, sportscars go around corners, not through mud, most of the
time.
You ask questions but seem to not want to respond to any. With what you have
acknowledged is a performance car that has, as you note, a top speed of 184mph,
why don't you get it out where it can exceed some speed limits and see what it is
really capable of? If you have it to drive it why be limited to 65 or 70mph when there
are lots of options to safely expand your knowledge of how to drive what you spent
some pretty good bucks acquiring? If you get passed by a Corvette, remember it
is just someone that has more time on track and you will soon show how superior
your machine can be handled! Looking forward to your first track report.

Off to Thunderhill on Sunday for what turns out to be the last Street School hosted
by the track. Thunderhill is owned by (Please Note) the SCCA, SF region. After
this event, the track is going to sublet instruction of new drivers to one of the many
private track event organizations, HookedonDriving. I expect I will see many P cars
and a few Corvettes since they have over 50 drivers set up for instruction. Should
be an amazingly beautiful day to enjoy showing a few folks how to better enjoy what
they drive.
Randy

chrmdome · December 2007

Sir:

I live in a nice neighborhood... at least 3 Porsches, many BMW's, many MB's and at least 2 Corvettes. Not a single track guy amongst us. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy my C2S . I went to the North Shore of Hawaii to go surfing a few years ago and while I was there the waves were at least 15 feet. Talking to one of the locals ( I didn't go out ) he commented( he didn't go out either ) " You have to know your limitations" . I never WANT to go 135mph... that ( again ) doesn't mean I don't enjoy my car. Some posters have stated Porsche has cheap plastic and archaic materials....come on, we all know Porsche is state of the art ..but some have to make that idiotic statement to feed the flame. My point is that critiquing my car, when it's a world class machine by anyones standards, does not elevate yours, the comments do nothing other than lower those who make the comments. Myself included. My questions were not retorical.. I got you to respond. I get so much enjoyment just driving my car down to the beach that I don't need the negitivism of thinking what I don't like about your car... so why are you guys so up tight about Porsche? Enyoy your cars... it's not worth the brain space. Lexus copies BMW and MB No car company is dumb enough to try to make their car look like a Porsche or a Corvette .Basically , knocking my car doesn't make your car better

Chromedome

pat · December 2007

The making of this conversation about each other needs to stop.

The discussion is about Sports Cars. It is about all the cars listed at the top. It is okay that someone comes here to talk about any of those listed cars.

It is not okay to make the conversation about other posters.

Again, if you don't like what someone else is saying, just skip the post. There is this handy-dandy secret "ignore" feature we have here in CarSpace known as the "scroll wheel" - if you are tempted to attack the person who posted the message you just read, just scroll on by.

pmc4 · December 2007

OK, there's an impression that--while the Vette is superior to the GT3--it falls short in the 'dash-stroking' category. Usually reviewers from foreign, German automotive magazine publications. I don't know where they get their crazy ideas!:

$120,000 Porsche GT3. Notice the vertical "grand canyon" panel gaps in and around the glovebox, and general cheapness all around:

Here's the $75,000 LeMans and ALMS-winning sportscar to which all other sportscars in the world are judged:

No grand canyons here, folks! No junky interior panels. Just pure business.

chrmdome · December 2007

Sir:

We are done buying into your insults. I really wish you the best. I hope you enjoy your car to the max. Good night. Oh, by the way, in the Corvette ..why is the parking brake handle on the passengers side...doesn't seem logical? It seems like you'd have to reach over the center counsel to reach it. Just wondering...Junky? What...

Chromedome

paisan · December 2007

Here's the $75,000 LeMans and ALMS-winning sportscar to which all other sportscars in the world are judged:

No Offense but no race car has an interior anything like either of those two above pictures. Anyone who actually goes out and races or has built a racecar knows that there is very little that is kept true to a street machine once it's been converted over for race duty.

I don't see any fire suppression on either car.
I don't see any roll cages on either car.
Heck I don't even see seats that would be legal in even the lowest level of club racing!
They both have airbags, which are absolutely not allowed in racing.

So let's calm down with the "Racing" comments since we are talking about street cars here.

-mike

chrmdome · December 2007

Sir:

Without beating the dead horse too many times! Please do a little research and review the massive number on wins that Porsche has posted in the last 58 years, in all categories. Porsche has been on the forefront of bringing racing technology to their " street " machines since 1948. I remember Tiger Woods being slammed about his " B game " comment. He is an asonishing golf prodigy!.... but he has not beat Jack Nicklas' record of major wins yet.A simple broken finger could ruin his career. One win does not a legend make. Rather than using a picture to make a judgement of the interior quality of the 997 and 997S , because this is what we are talking about here..street machines ( the 997S being the most popular in the line )go down to your local Porsche dealer and take a look, preferably at one that offers a full leather interior. You will see the world class fit/ finish /material and build quality. I've seen the Corvette...More than one car mag writer has positioned the 997 as the worlds premier sports car, regardless of those who make unjustified and biased comments . Elevation to world class stature takes more than a critique of your opponent, to be a true winner you have to have class. More " Evolution than Revolution" is what embodies Porsche The Corvette and the Porsche 997 are 2 vastly different cars, from the Porsche being a true 2+2, to it's unibody contruction , European design and engineering to it's heritage and history. With the car world in general recognizing the position the Porsche holds ..how can you be so critical? It just doesn't make sense.

Chromedome

chrmdome · December 2007

Sir:

PS I'm getting tired, yawn ( also of this ) so don't listen to my diatribe. Go to Edmunds : Full Test: 2007 Porsche 911 S... Mr. Huffman dosen't seem to find any glaring issues with the 997, his comments are on the contrary,you have to trust someone. I'm figuring it's his business so who do you believe? I'm done.

Chromedome

pmc4 · December 2007

The brand new Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid gets 2 extra MPG (city) over the standard 4 cylinder Malibu and adds ZERO horsepower.
The Toyota Camry Hybrid gets 12 extra MPG (city) over the standard 4 cylinder Camry and adds 29 horsepower.

The Corvette gets 16/25.
The V6 Camry gets 19 MPG city, whereas the Chevy Tahoe hybrid gets 21 MPG city. The Chevy Tahoe weighs over 5,000 lbs, can tow over 6,000 pounds, generates almost 400 horsepower with over 400 ft/lbs of torque and can seat over eight people. An astonishing engineering feat that makes the engineering in the putt-putt Camry hybrid look like the first-generation hybrid technology it is.
I say again: Toyota's technological leadership in hybrid technology is first-generation and will be for the forseeable future; GM's technological hybrid leadership is newer, better, more powerful and much cleaner.
The Corvette is the sportscar leader and always will be.

pmc4 · December 2007

No Offense but no race car has an interior anything like either of those two above pictures. Anyone who actually goes out and races or has built a racecar knows that there is very little that is kept true to a street machine once it's been converted over for race duty.
I don't see any fire suppression on either car.
I don't see any roll cages on either car.
Heck I don't even see seats that would be legal in even the lowest level of club racing!
They both have airbags, which are absolutely not allowed in racing.

The picture of the Z06 car I showed is the commercial version of the car Chevrolet races in their endurance events. So when I said "Here's the [LeMans and ALMS winning] $75,000 sportscar..." I was not out of line (the Z06 is a $75,000 sportscar, and races at LeMans and ALMS, albeit with interior and suspensions strictly intended for the professional racing circuit). My main aim in posting these two pictures was to show that Corvettes are sadly underrated in their interior execution, and that Porsche models are grotesquely overrated in this regard, and I illustrated this unfortunate fact visually.

Also, Edmunds just banned my picture-posting privelidge on this forum. it's a little disturbing to read a post from chromedome where he approximately stated, "Edmunds said the interior of the 911 is without peer, reaches Lexus-like levels of craftsmanship and Edmunds also said the Corvette interior is flimsy and plasticky" then when I try to post pictures showing that the 911 might not be as good as they say and that the Corvette may be better than they say, Edmunds censors my picture-posting privelidges on this forum. I wonder why?
Paisan, do you have an explination? I'd confront this with a private message, but this forum doesn't have P/M's.

pmc4 · December 2007

chrmdome, I tried to find links to support this post of yoours by Googling, "porsche lemans alms wins podium finishes" and the only thing I found was that Porsche had a podium finish back in 1998 at LeMans in the LMP-class. Can you please support your posts with links that prove Porsche's successes in professional motorsports? I have been unsucessful in doing so myself.

What's funny is that Googling, "porsche lemans alms wins podium finishes" brought up like five links relating to Chevrolet's dominance in these endurance events.

link title

pmc4 · December 2007

More " Evolution than Revolution" is what embodies Porsche The Corvette and the Porsche 997 are 2 vastly different cars, from the Porsche being a true 2+2, to it's unibody contruction , European design and engineering to it's heritage and history. With the car world in general recognizing the position the Porsche holds ..how can you be so critical? It just doesn't make sense.

OK, good question (your last question).
I think the reason I'm (or Vette fanboys in general) are being so critical of Porsche is because we're winning race after race and comparison tests after comparison tests, but some sources (especially foreign ones like CAR magazine and Germany's Auto Bild magazine) seem to conveniently ignore this glaring fact. Why is it that the foreign automotive press is so reluctant to acknowledge Corvette's superiority as a car and as a racing entity?
Why do they heap on vague, abstract praise like, "The Porsche is European engineering and elegance. From the soft corinthian leather to the large tachonometer that was inspired by their racing victories, this automaker screams craftsmanship. The engine is the aural equivalent of the london Philharmonic symphony orchestra doing a Tsaichovsky composition, and the shifter feels as if it's linkage is coated with sheets of silk..."
This "praise" trickles down to the domestic automotive journalist, but fortunately most journalists on this side of the continent still have enough professionalism to render the Corvette the #1 car and the Porsche (or any other automaker for that matter) the #2 car. But still, some of the fluff from Europe still occasionaly makes it to your local Car and Driver magazine from time to time.

That's why we critisize. Tell it like it is, journalists!!!

fedlawman · December 2007

"The V6 Camry gets 19 MPG city, whereas the Chevy Tahoe hybrid gets 21 MPG city."

Apples to oranges. The Tahoe is a truck that uses engine/fuel management devices that are not acceptable in a mass-market family sedan. You claimed that GM has superior hybrid technology, then why didn't they use it in the Malibu? I proved you woefully wrong with a comparison between the current/comparable midsize family sedans from each company.

And for the record, the automatic Corvette gets 15 MPG. The manual is rated at 16 MPG in the city, but only with the help of the "skip-shift" feature that forces the driver to go from 1st to 4th gear until normal acceleration. The new Lexus LS-F (with a 412 HP V-8) is also EPA rated at 16 MPG city even though it weighs 600 lbs more than the Vette (it's a heavy, luxury/performance sedan).

Which brings up another point - if the Corvette is such a world beater, how come the C6 engine needs 6.2 litres to produce a relatively dismal 430 hp (69 hp/litre)? The Mercedes CLK63 makes 500 hp with the same displacement. Toyota stomps Chevrolet with the new Lexus LS-F. It's V-8 makes 412 hp with only 5.0 litres (83 hp/litre). And don't forget BMW. The new V-8 M3 makes an astounding 414 hp with only 4.0 litres (103.5 hp/litre)!

Like I've said before. The Corvette is a fantastic sports car and an amazing performance bargain, but there's a reason why it only costs $45,000. You get what you pay for.

Drive a 10 year-old/100,000 mile Corvette back-to-back with a similarly used Porsche/BMW/Toyota and you'll immediately see why you saved so much money.

fedlawman · December 2007

"I think the reason I'm (or Vette fanboys in general) are being so critical of Porsche is because we're winning race after race and comparison tests after comparison tests."

The problem with this logic is that the characteristics that make a great race car or generate great test numbers are not necessarily what make a great street car. A race car has it's cockpit ripped out and suspension beefed up. All that matters is how fast will it lap a certain course - Who cares if it rattles? Who cares if it's compliant over rough roads? Who cares how noisy it is? Who cares if it falls apart at the end of the season?

A street car, on the other hand, must be refined, comfortable, quiet, reliable, and enjoyable to drive and own in a variety of environments. This is where a high-priced European sports car trumps the Corvette. Controls are silky smooth and don't fall off in your hand. Seats are well padded, supportive, and comfortable for long distances with high quality surfaces that won't wear and seams that won't split. Steering and driveline and refined and responsive, and transmit road information without being too harsh or too numb.

The C6 Corvette is surprisingly competent in these areas, but a Porsche or BMW is simply sublime (I know it's cliche to say it this way). There's simply no other way to put it and until you experience the difference, you'll never understand.

paisan · December 2007

Also, Edmunds just banned my picture-posting privelidge on this forum. it's a little disturbing to read a post from chromedome where he approximately stated, "Edmunds said the interior of the 911 is without peer, reaches Lexus-like levels of craftsmanship and Edmunds also said the Corvette interior is flimsy and plasticky" then when I try to post pictures showing that the 911 might not be as good as they say and that the Corvette may be better than they say, Edmunds censors my picture-posting privelidges on this forum. I wonder why?
Paisan, do you have an explination? I'd confront this with a private message, but this forum doesn't have P/M's.

No idea, I'm only a host in the Tuning/Modifications Area and the Motorsports Area. My guess would be that they may have limited your picture posting abilities due to possibly copyrighted material? Best bet would be to drop an e-mail to the helpdesk or one fo the hosts in the area where they were deleted.

-mike

paisan · December 2007

The problem with this logic is that the characteristics that make a great race car or generate great test numbers are not necessarily what make a great street car. A race car has it's cockpit ripped out and suspension beefed up. All that matters is how fast will it lap a certain course - Who cares if it rattles? Who cares if it's compliant over rough roads? Who cares how noisy it is? Who cares if it falls apart at the end of the season?

Yes my point exactly! I'm glad someone understands the point I was making

-mike

starrow68 · December 2007

Interesting perspective. Who cares if my daily driver has disc brakes? I do, and
they came from Zora pushing a racing agenda against his brass who didn't care or
understand and improving the performance of the Corvette. Even Edmunds has
written up the Chevy small block and how far GM has extended the design to get
performance levels that apply to street cars. The point of racing, even for P-cars, is
to get what is more efficient and apply it to the street fleet to beat the competition
where it matters, selling cars. Does anyone seriously think we would have the
performance cars on the street today without racing?

As for Corvette wins at LeMans vs. Porsche, at least in the past few years, the cars
run in different classes. The GT2 class is a glorified street car, i.e. the GT3 P-car.
The GT1 or GTS class is a purpose built race car, tube frame and has as much
relation to the street version as a NASCAR Ford or Toyota does. BTW, the exotic
materials, if you want to call an aluminum frame exotic, but the mag. engine cradle
sure seems like it is, are what has so far kept the C6 Z06 out of SCCA racing.
They don't know how to certify the safety of something they have no experience
with.

c...dome, be the first on your block to see what your car is really capable of ...
And maybe your limitations aren't as large as they look ...

Randy

fedlawman · December 2007

Not saying the Corvette isn't high tech - and I agree that racing improves the breed of street cars through trickle-down technology. It's a credit to GM that the Corvette weighs as little as it does and performs so well.

But the fact remains that, although the C6 is a huge improvement over previous generations and is no longer the "one trick pony" it once was, it still does not possess the chassis refinement, suspension compliance, nimbleness, steering feel, build quality - overall BALANCE of a Porsche.

chrmdome · December 2007

Greetings:

My main point, althought my point might be buried amongst the dialog being beaten back and forth like a red-headed stepchild is this. Statistics... ya those can't be used in any way to make a point one way or another.!!! duh... come on! Whether or not your Corvette does a 0-60 in 0.12567 faster than my 997S , I find no enjoyment in battering the build quality, interior, paint job or any other aspect of Corvette. I enjoy my Porsche totally. If we deny the heritage and history that Porsche holds among the builders of world class automobiles, Ferrari, BMW MB etc, we are just showing our ignorance. As out host has mentioned ( twice ? ) this is about street cars...sure racing improves the quality of our products ( one of my main points with Porsche ), but we are talking street cars here. Softer ride quality with a sporting touch (PSM, PSAM ) is what we look for, on the street I'm 57 years old and don't enjoy being bounced around like a bean in a 55 gallon drum. Does this make my 997S less worthy.? Here in California you will promptly be arrested for even 1 mph over 100mph. I don't need that grief in my life. So whats my point???? Go look at the 997S Porsche at the dealership. You will in most cases be treated with respect , given all the information you seek in a professional manner and most everyone will be totally impressed with the world class cars they see. The 997S is a daily driver... every car mag I've read about the 997S in review touts the car as simply world class, expensive but world class... so what do you know unless you drive it every day. How can you (Guys ) critique something with such distain using only your statistics about racing .. your not driving a Porsche everyday ...how do you know anything about the steering, shifting etc.. I've find no argument about what Chevy has done with the Corvette. How can anyone deny the place that Porsche holds ??

Chromedome

pmc4 · December 2007

Replying to: pmc4 (Dec 07, 2007 8:52 pm)
"The V6 Camry gets 19 MPG city, whereas the Chevy Tahoe hybrid gets 21 MPG city."
Apples to oranges. The Tahoe is a truck that uses engine/fuel management devices that are not acceptable in a mass-market family sedan. You claimed that GM has superior hybrid technology, then why didn't they use it in the Malibu? I proved you woefully wrong with a comparison between the current/comparable midsize family sedans from each company.
And for the record, the automatic Corvette gets 15 MPG. The manual is rated at 16 MPG in the city, but only with the help of the "skip-shift" feature that forces the driver to go from 1st to 4th gear until normal acceleration. The new Lexus LS-F (with a 412 HP V-8) is also EPA rated at 16 MPG city even though it weighs 600 lbs more than the Vette (it's a heavy, luxury/performance sedan).

Which brings up another point - if the Corvette is such a world beater, how come the C6 engine needs 6.2 litres to produce a relatively dismal 430 hp (69 hp/litre)? The Mercedes CLK63 makes 500 hp with the same displacement. Toyota stomps Chevrolet with the new Lexus LS-F. It's V-8 makes 412 hp with only 5.0 litres (83 hp/litre). And don't forget BMW. The new V-8 M3 makes an astounding 414 hp with only 4.0 litres (103.5 hp/litre)!
Like I've said before. The Corvette is a fantastic sports car and an amazing performance bargain, but there's a reason why it only costs $45,000. You get what you pay for.
Drive a 10 year-old/100,000 mile Corvette back-to-back with a similarly used Porsche/BMW/Toyota and you'll immediately see why you saved so much money.

I've been waiting for a post like this ever since Mercedes brought their big-bore M156 engine to market (the 6.3L DOHC V8 M156 engine is Mercedes Benz's attempt at dethroning Chevrolet's exemplary LS3 V8 and powers an S-Class AMG coupe)!!!

Truth be told, folks, even with Mercedes Benz's multi-million dollar development effort at bringing to market large-displacement, complex engines, the DOHC concept still falls short of the goal.

Even with 32 valves, four camshafts, tons of doo-dads for variable valve camshaft timing and phasing and variable intake geometry, the very best Benz can do is 503 horsepower with a so-so 456 ft/lbs of torque! The LS7--an engine that has it's roots in a post WWII Cadillac V8 pushrod engine--generates 505 horsepower and 470 ft/lbs of torque.

Lemme get this straight. A pushrod engine generates more power and horsepower than a variable-valve V8 DOHC engine that has 32 valves, variable cam phasing at both the intake AND exhaust, costs almost $40,000 by itself, and has had nearly a billion research euro's thrown at it?

How can that be? I mean, for years, the 'sport-compact tuner' crowd has been saying, "The DOHC engine is just more refined and advanced than the LSx engines from Chevy. Sure, the Chevy engine makes more power, but it does it through brute force, not engineering. The only thing Chevy does is make a big-bore engine and throw pushrods at it, so there's no wonder it makes more power: through displacement and not through technology, like the DOHC engines.
"If a company like Mercedes Benz (or Honda) were to bring a big-displacement DOHC engine to market, Chevy's pushrod V8 would be history! I mean, just think about it. DOHC advancements with large displacement? Now that would be one powerful engine!"

But your 'moment of glory' never came. Mercedes did exactly that--created a large-displacement DOHC V8-- and it still falls short of the Almighty Pushrod's glory!
It's still weaker, has less horsepower, costs far more to manufacture and most important of all, has a very irregular powerband.
And let us remember, we must compare base engine to base engine; premium engine to premium engine. THe base engine is Benz's S550 V8. Their premium engine is the AMG M156 engine. Thus, we must compare the LS7 (not the LS3) to the M156, since they're both premium engines. We should compare the base LS3 to the S550 Benz mill, since they're both base mills and not premium engines.

For all these years, us enthusiasts have been saying that a large displacement DOHC V8 would still fall behind Chevy's tuned Pushrod V8. For years, you guys have been saying we were wrong. Mercedes Benz brings your engine to market and it's still not as good as Chevy's LS7.
FOR YEARS YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN FOOLED!!!

This Edmunds website shows the characteristic output curve (dynograph) of the big-bore Mercedes Benz V8 DOHC engine. Notice that the engine doesn't even start making 90% of its peak power until 3,500 RPM, and, being the very narrow powerband it is, falls below 90% at 5,500 RPM or so.

This dynograph is for the Chevrolet LS7, the world's most powerful normally-asperated V8 engine.
Notice the nearly flat and wide powerband, where 90% or greater power is generated even well past 6,300 RPM. You will not find a broader powerband anywhere, except on the racing circuit.
This is what tuning does to an engine. Honda and Mercedes Benz strategy is to add as many expensive doo-dads on an engine to try and boost power and flatten the torque curve; Chevrolet's strategy is to refine and tune the LSx engine to the point of perfection in order to get that ultra-wide powerband. Titanium con-rods, forged aluminum pistons and sodium-filled intake valve can't hurt, of course...

Chevy ^^^
Mercedes Benz:

pmc4 · December 2007

Not saying the Corvette isn't high tech - and I agree that racing improves the breed of street cars through trickle-down technology. It's a credit to GM that the Corvette weighs as little as it does and performs so well.
But the fact remains that, although the C6 is a huge improvement over previous generations and is no longer the "one trick pony" it once was, it still does not possess the chassis refinement, suspension compliance, nimbleness, steering feel, build quality - overall BALANCE of a Porsche.

Most of you guys are being incorrect in this department. The very reason why I posted the pic of the Vette and of the GT3 was to show that the Vette is underrated and the Porsche is overrated in the 'dash-stroker' category. Critics are too afraid to admit that the BMW or the Porsche has a sub-standard interior, especially where price is concerned. I proved this by showing photographs of both interiors.

If you really want to see a very graphic illustration of this corrupt phonomena, just (and I implore you guys to do so) pick up the latest issue of Car and Driver magazine when you're at the store.
In it, Car and Driver compares the BMW 328i, Infiniti G35, Cadillac CTS and Mercedes Benz.
BMW wins the Comparison test.
Go to where Car and Driver heaps on praise regarding the "refinement, quality and execution" of the BMW's interior.
Then look at all three photographs--the photographs of the BMW, Infiniti and Cadillac interiors, side-by side.

What you are about to see will bring a tear to your eye.

Standing next to the Infiniti and especially the Cadillac, the BMW is far cheaper-looking, horribly executed, contrasting shapes, irregular colors and overall cheapness compared to the Infiniti and Caddy.
The BMW's tacked-on speaker grille tops it all off.

Then go to where they test the Lexus LS-F a few pages later, where they say, "With the merits of this Lexus, you guys will think we might consider getting off of BMW's bankroll..." It's clear from this review and the other review that Car and Driver is indeed being somehow paid by BMW.

If you look at the three tested cars, you'll believe it, too.

pmc4 · December 2007

People are hilarious!
People can be told that the interior of a Porsche or BMW is high-quality and that the Corvette is low quality.
Then when they sit in both cars, they see that the opposite is true: That the Corvette is richer-looking than the Porsche.

Then they walk away saying that the Porsche is richer-looking, because that's what they were told to believe. A remarkeable psychological phonomena indeed!

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