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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si
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Comments
Contrary to the opinion of fanboys (see definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy) like fasterthanyou or carfanatic, there's a reason people buy cars like the GTI, Mazdaspeed3, and Civic Si - these three cars are fantastic rides that represent the class of the hot hatch field. Each car brings its own strengths and weaknesses, but rest assured, if any of these cars were junk, people (especially tuners) wouldn't be as interested.
I'm a 25-year Dubber, and I have nothing but admiration for all three of these cars. :shades:
The fanboys are a different story altogether... :lemon:
Not that it lasted long, but still... even a few seconds of fishtailing tends to illuminate the car in a bad light, specially at extreme low speeds.
As for the Fit. Sure it doesn't have the power, but it has... to me... a better sense of handling and tossability. After test driving one, had I treated my rental Mazda6 in the same manner, I'd have ended up in a ditch somewhere. Heck, a quick left-right-left multiple lane change would have most likely had that Mazda6 spinning a doughnut in the middle of a major highway... yet the Fit I tested could do that without me worrying about the aftereffects.
And the list of cars that I think are better than the 6... I'm not comparing them to each other, just to the Mazda6. And in each case, the 6 has worse handling and acceleration.
Even a Civic Si is better at that.
Of course, the Mazda6 is still much better than a Camry or Sonata in its ability to handle... But that's more d@mning of the Camry/Sonata than it is praise for the 6.
<<insert carriage return here - for some reason the text box isn't working for me today>>
And it doesn't help that the Camry isn't exactly designed as a carving machine. Toyota generally makes cars that are nicer to ride in as opposed to ones that are nicer to take hairpins in. The Camry Solara is frequently cited as a very pleasant and capable cruising car... but not very good in the sports arena.
I could induce oversteer on my BMWs, naturally, but on my Protege ES I needed to really adjust the car's weight through a corner to bring the back end around. Likewise, my Mrk IV Jetta 1.8T needed a 28 mm sway and some serious massaging of steering inputs and throttle application to induce oversteer. My new Cooper S can get the backend around but the car's got a tiny wheelbase and extremely tight suspension matched to cruddy/bouncy run flat tires.
The Mazda6 rides on a much longer wheelbase than a Protege, Cooper or Jetta. Getting oversteer even with high speeds and weight transitioning would be extremely difficult. We're talking about entering a corner at 90, slamming on the brakes to create nosedive and transfer all weight forward, and then cranking the wheel into the corner. Even then with the 6's low center of gravity and long body, I can't believe the car would rotate much, if at all.
but seeing as how we are...i don't think the mazda 6 is so awful; but as 'anemic' as the fit may be ( i cant really remember what car in that segement is blindingly fast anyway.), its a great handler and its steering response is much more direct than the six.
but i can't claim the same 25 yr dubber title!
you still have not addressed the fact that aside from vw, most cars in this price range are beaten by honda, at least from an interior materials standpoint. My previous post still stands.
With regards to the si...i have driven it. I know what i'm talking about. AND even if we WERE basing our opinions on reviews, my opinion of the more body roll in the gti as opposed to the civic STILL....TOTALLY...STANDS..
fan boy. :P
(in the best dr.evil voice ever imitated): you just...don't get it do you?
IF you had any bit of sense, you would know that i don't agree with what a lot of what is in consumer reports, and have questioned the validity of some of the things in that magazine.
How could you say i think its wrong to speak out against it? Did you not understand what i posted? I told you that citing consumer reports to BACK UP your 'reliable' vw's theory is suicide, since they are the one magazine that loves to slam on them!!! :sick: I was just saying your defense made no sense and STILL does not.
Do you live in europe? if so...
you can't really comment on the reliabilty of ANY car here in america.
and, you can't compare how one car is rated there and rated here. I KNOW that vw gets good ratings in europe, over here they are doing much better, but in the very recent past, they stunk.
For the record, my mother and law has a v-6 2004 mazda six, and that thing has just been totally unreliable in every way imaginable. The next car she gets will have the big H on its nose.
got x rays done on monday, turns out i have a torn rotator cuff. Hurt alot and is still very sore. But i'm good!
i was playin b-ball a little to passionately.
You cannot "fishtail" in a FWD car. There is no power to the rear to push the rear out!
And it had some of the worst gearing, acceleration, and handling I'd ever seen in a car.
The outdated V6 is going to be a memory once the new Mazda6 comes out. We all know the 215hp V6 was never all that great. Yes, the auto tranny with the V6 is not great either. The 4 cyl is much better. As for handling, you gotta be kidding me! The Mazda6 is the top rated handler in this class! It smashes Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Chevy, Ford, VW, Mitsu... The list goes on and on. Please...
No, a Honda Fit would have been more fun.
(or a GTI, Civic SI, Mazdaspeed3, WRX STi, or an Evo for that matter )
I dunno about the Fit, I drove one. Not much fun. And about the other, no s*** they are more fun, they are all performance compacts!! That is like saying "I'm not going to buy an F150 because the Mazda MX-5 is more fun to drive"..WTF!!!
Infiniti is a Nissan company, not Toyota. Toyota has Lexus, Honda has Acura...
For example, an '05 Accord vs '05 Passat. The Passat may need one more repair during the 3-yr lease period (i.e., ignition coil), the Accord suffers in ride comfort every single day! Which one would you pick to pamper you? The Accord also suffers in big turning circle that needs more backing up for 3 or 5 point turns.
"You must be a hobbit if you have driven any civic with a radio out of arms reach."
I'm 5'11 & am sick of cars designed by people w/ short legs. I always have to take off my shoes in order to gain some leg room. Otherwise, with the seat moved aft, I will have to stretch my arms & even lean forward in order to grab the steering, radio, etc. Even the Rabbit/Jetta had this problem from MkI to MkIV! The Focus & S40 fit me fine, but not quite so in the similar-twin -- the Mazda3. Let alone the new Civic coupe.
I doubt they're offering the Fahrenheit option across the pond (for fear of ridicule). This smacks of VWoA stupid marketdroid group-think, IMHO...
farenheits aren't really all that much more expensive than some decked to the gills gti's and gli's: they include all the goodies standard, plus its a limited edition much like the r32, with a serial number and everything. Factor in the unique color, wheels, and interior trim and that tops off the price.
For some people its awesome, like most special editions are, and for others who aren't dubbers, its no biggie, or 'stupid'. But all the ones i've seen have been snatched up.
the launch control thing is a bit misleading though, current 'regular' gti's have it as well, its even in the brochures you can get at the dealer that come with the dvd.
Just to clear the confusion. The Euro-spec are made in Japan & no clumsy nose-heavy 6 cylinder. The most & least reliable cars do not have much problems when new. Statistics show that 7-yr old Japanese cars got as much repair problems as 4-yr old American cars.
I guess you just don't know about Mazda's.
I can fish tail my TTL-suspension FWD '90 Protege w/ factory LX sport package at low speeds, & even spin out if you want to see it! It's a dangerous car in wet. Am I the "drift king" around here? :confuse:
But newer Mazda's w/ multi-link rear suspension is suppose to fish tail more predictably than the TTL (Twin Trapezoid Link).
There no such thing as a nimble-handling 6-cyl FWD car. Even the 5-cyl MkII Focus ST loses out to the 4-cyl MkV GTI in all Brit's comparison tests, while the 4-cyl MkII Focus beats the 4-cyl MkV Golf! In case you wonder why the Mazdaspeed3 ditched that 5-cyl turbo engine from its twin brothers -- the Volvo S40/V50 & the MkII Focus ST.
A serial number?! Oh my god, it's got a number on it, so it's different from the other 250k GTIs VW will produce in 2007.
Sorry but honestly, the car's got rims and a paintjob. Some interior trim and a numbered plaque hardly make it worth more than a regular GTI in my eyes.
For some people its awesome, like most special editions are, and for others who aren't dubbers, its no biggie, or 'stupid'. But all the ones i've seen have been snatched up.
My dad's a car collector and special editions that are really special can be worth quite a bit. Special editions of VWs though...it's a VW economy car with orange paint.
I know the current GTI feels like it would come around if it had a tighter suspension. A solid rear sway might be enough...
yeah it is actually, it has exclusive interior trim, an awesome soundsystem, and just a few extra things that make it unique; considering all the options it has on it, it really isn't that much more than comparably equipped gti's without all those little things that make it different, such as the paint, trim, and rims.
and economy car? blue guy you were really gung ho about the gti before you got the cooper, what happened? you don't have to hate on it now! if i remember correctly, you called the si out on its so called 'economy' interior and used the gti as the posterchild for NOT being like this, or taking the same approach when it came to the performance version. Why the sudden and very weird change?
Someone do this!
and economy car? blue guy you were really gung ho about the gti before you got the cooper, what happened? you don't have to hate on it now!
I still like it. Alot! The GTI is still the car when it comes to family time. GTI sits high (our A3's been great) and the only competition on the horizon still is the 335i sedan (fuel economy and cost tell me not to), 135 (if it's here as a hatch) and the new WRX hatch.
if i remember correctly, you called the si out on its so called 'economy' interior and used the gti as the posterchild for NOT being like this, or taking the same approach when it came to the performance version. Why the sudden and very weird change?
One word: Golf. Unfortunately, the new Golf does remind one that that GTI is a dressed up Golf. While Golf's are nice, they are the economy car of the VW brand in the USA.
I was just playing around about the serial number thing. I get some like it but those add-ons don't justify the cost in my eyes.
Don't sweat it!
having said that, i still think the golf/rabbit is the nicest appointed economy car, even edging out the 3. (less sport, more cheap luxo.)
I'm not saying that I would pay that much for a gti, but for some people, its their thing.
how has your mini been treating ya? my wife wants one, but she still likes backseats, and want to look into the club wagon thingy.
My mini has been fantastic. 3 months and I love it. Adore it. Can't wait to get in and drive it every day. Odd quirks with ergonomics and of course FWD failings aside, it's a just a gas. And I get 30 MPGs around town and on a recent roadtrip recorded 35 mpg running 80+ with the AC in 90-100 degree heat.
The backseat on the R56 is usable if the driver/passenger is smaller. I'm only 5-7 so people fit behind me. The Clubman, will, of course, open up more space back there.
I only own a 2005 Mazda6, brother and best friend own Mazdaspeed6's. I work for a Mazda dealer for a few years now. Nope, I guess I know nothing about Mazda's. Try reading over 1000 posts I have made about Mazda's, or ask people here if I know what I'm talking about!
I think you are not sure what "fish tailing" means. Your rear swaying side to side while propelling yourself forward. How does a FWD vehicle do that?
I am referring to how the Mazda6 handles in comparison to others in it's class. Not Infiniti, S2000 or Civic. The Accord does not handle all that well, in comparison to the Mazda6.
And I'm thinking (don't hold me to this) that the Mitsubishi Evo could out handle the Mazda6
There is no question the EVO will out handle the Mazda6. No contest.
I am sorry for continued talking about the Mazda6, I know this is not the thread for it.
A few years. Let's see, that's after the birth of Mazda3 & Mazda6, both of which had the suspension derived from the German-designed Focus & Mondeo, respectively. You want to know about Mazda's dark history? & No, I'm not talking about going bankruptcy due to the early rotary...
"I think you are not sure what "fish tailing" means. Your rear swaying side to side while propelling yourself forward. How does a FWD vehicle do that?"
During teenage years, once I was test driving my friend's 1st-generation FWD 626 at around 50mph. The back-end hopped suddenly for a very short duration when the short-spring rear suspension used up the travel as I did an abrupt lane-change test w/ the adjustable shocks set to soft. So that "hop" made the car fishtailed. & as I kept trying to correct it by countersteering, it wagged the tail a few more times & became worse so it got off the road on an uphill. Then the car flipped several times & landed upside down. My first reaction was, "why is car not as roomy as before?"
Then in 1990 when Mazda named the 323 as Protege for the first time, Road & Track mentioned about its ultra-long rear suspension travel -- at 8.9". So I got interested & test drove it from a dealer. As I trailed throttle when cornering at about 30mph, it also fishtailed. Except that this time, the long rear springs did not used up the travel, so I counter steered & brought it back barely in time. The salesman was too scared to recommend another model for me to try until it fits.
Anyway, I was too naive & believed that this oversteer problem can be allevieted simply by bumping up the rear tire pressure. (The culprit was that the early short-transverse-link design caused excessive camber change that no amount of toe-in from the TTL could compensate.) So I did ended up getting the car. Boy, was I wrong. Countless number of tail-wags have sharpened my skill. Even today, the only way to straighten the oversteer from this low-tech Japanese suspension is to step on the throttle. Even the less-fishtail-prone Escort version need to apply this methed (per Car & Driver). But it was only after I bought the car did Car & Driver mentioned about Protege's tailwagging "heart in the mouth" moment on fwy ramps. Today, I'm still keeping it as a toy to do "spin out"!!!
Today, Mazda still retuned the German-platform Mazda3 to fishtail more than the MkII Focus/S40. I can wag its tail a bit during abrupt lane change at freeway speed, but not on the MkI Focus ST or the new S40 turbo. W/o DSC, the Mazda3 can be dangerous in the wet.
See what the experts have experienced:
http://www.msnusers.com/BrunoLuong/04caroftheyear.msnw
Wrong assumption, kid. No need for you to be cute, it won't work with me :P
Now, I remember your original post saying that the Mazda6 has a "fish tail" problem from when you drove it out of the rental lot. I have tried to get my rear to kick out, and to no avail.
I am guessing your "fish tail" issues you have with earlier Mazda's are not what I consider fish tailing. I would more or less call it wheel skip or hop. Which really, today, is a non issue with Mazdas in comparison to other mfg's. Mazdas are built to out handle their competitors. I really cannot think of one car they build that it out handled by any other car in it's immediate class.
On a side note, I do not need any education in Mazda history, good and bad, thank you. I have been an enthusiast for years, and I know how to research, and read, strip and build. :shades:
gogogodzilla, "Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si" #1184, 19 Jun 2007 7:17 am
In an early post "Mazda6 vs TSX" that was archived. A member name Stretch posted a continuous short-clip video of his red 4-cyl Mazda6 doing oversteer at the end of the track run. I believe he was decelerating to a stop on a sharp turn.
My arguement about today's Mazda's reluctance to stay away from oversteer/fishtail is being shown on the Mazda3:
http://www.msnusers.com/BrunoLuong/04caroftheyear.msnw
"Paul Horrell (Great Britain) - sixth - The Mazda is another good-looking, enjoyable but noisy car. And its potential for oversteer is too much for most buyers in this class. Relying on DSC isn’t good enough."
"John Simister (Great Britain) - last - Mazda's 'zoom-zoom' slogan dies seem to have lodged itself in the Mazda3, because it is a sharp, lively drive as befits its next-generation Ford Focus underpinnings. In fact there are times when its handling might be almost too tail-happy for an inexperienced driver."
Totally lack of oversteer is boring. So oversteer isn't neccesarily bad. Uncontrollable oversteer is. That's why multi-link rules!
Don't get me wrong. I was the one that has been posting around here for years saying that the Mazda3 is the best car in the world b/c it's the only one w/ German suspension, Japanese power plant & built in Japan. I also said that the 16"-rim RX-8 has the world's best ride/handling compromise (& I can't wait to see a taller roomier sedan version of it in the future). It's the Mazda-donated engine that saved Focus's reliability issue. I just wish the Mazda3 has a wider rear-glass visibility like the Mazda6. That was also why I picked the Focus 2.3 ST at the end over the Mazda3 & Volvo S40.
IE - When I pulled out of the Hertz Rent-a-Car lot at the BWI airport, the front wheels pulled the car along, but the back wheels had no traction at all. As I made a left turn out the lot, the rear end of the car kept on going in the direction that I no longer was.
If it had continued, I'd have ended up doing a 360-degree spin-out in the middle of traffic (which ain't a good thing).
My '93 Camry SE had a scary rear skid on every bumpy left turn. It turned out that it had a defective aftermarket strut in the right rear!
I'm assuming that whatever it was that happened for you to experience what you did, it was a very specific set of circumstances, because in 28 years and over 1.3 million miles on the collective odometers, I've only had that one event with the back end of a FWD car misbehaving.
Oops! My appologies!!
i still like the ride/handling balance in the gti better anyway.
That's an iffy one. It was designed by Mazdas German team, in Germany.
The 1999-2005 Mazda Miata was designed in Irvine, California, does that make that Miata an American car? No. It was still the Japanese that built it.
So, I would say that the Mazda3's suspension is Japanese.
Mazda3's Control Blade rear suspension is not a Japanese design (the earlier Mazda-suspension TTL -- Twin Trapezoid Link -- is). It was taken directly from the European-car Focus, which was derived from the old Mondeo wagon's unique space-saving "4-link rear suspension" set up. Mazda simply retuned it w/ different firmness & understeer/oversteer balance when using the whole MkII Focus platform. Only the steering rack was Mazda's own Japanese design, while the Focus & S40/V50 share the same European steering rack. Mazda's design team in Germany mainly only contributed the drivetrain portion in this C-1 project, which consists of Mazda3, MkII Focus & S40/V50. & yes, the drivetrain in the recent Focus in the U.S. is Japanese. So was the 1.8 in the '91 Escort GT/Tracer LTS.
Just like the MkI S40 has a Japanese suspension (Mitsubishi Carisma platform) while the MkII S40 has the Focus Control Blade. & no, the Focus is not an American design. The Pinto is.
Saying this suspension is Japanese is like saying the MkV Rabbit/GTI's Control Blade is a version of a Japanese suspension. :P
I agree about VW Rabbit's ride comfort beating just about everyone else's
Those of you not happy w/ Mazda3's quicker-rebound ride movement can solve the problem simply by using Gabriel or std-S40 shocks to calm it down. That way, you are still keeping the only reliable "German" car on the road. :P