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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si

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Comments

  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    Agreed. But there is a BIG difference between a friendly discussion/argument and a personal attack - especially when said poster doesn't even know me. Now tell me if this isn't an example of a personal attack:

    >Thats what warantees are for Einstein. If it pukes, they'll fix it.

    As far as the taking it easy comment, your intentions are good, but your comments are pointed in the wrong direction.

    BTW - As a military veteran who has been in more than his share of hotspots, I know a little something about taking heat... And believe me, when push comes to shove, I can dish out a hell of a lot of heat. But I prefer not to. There's enough conflict going on in the world as it is...

    Believe me, I would much rather spend my time using my 20+ years of experience with cars (especially VWs) to help people than to take potshots at them.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Let's compare the vehicles - agree to disagree when needed and remain civil.

    Thanks!
  • z71billz71bill Member Posts: 1,986
    I have never owned a VW - so I can't comment about them - but Mazda does not stand behind their cars - they in fact do not honor their warranty.

    My car has been puking its guts out for over a year - more than 12 trips into the dealership for (what should be) warranty problems.

    But my brakes still make loud grinding noises when I stop, my AC system is still a defective piece of junk, loud thumping sounds are still coming from my front end when I hit little bumps in the road - all normal conditions according to Mazda.

    A warranty is only as good as the company that is standing behind it - and in Mazda's case - that is not very good.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    Let's agree to disagree. Bill has gotten himself a lemon, and he is one of the few. I own a 2005 Mazda3 5-door and the a/c is flawless, my brakes do not grind, there are no strange thumping noises, etc. And most of the owners over on the Mazda3 Problems & Solutions discussion have told Bill the same story.

    Also, I owned a Mazda B2300 pickup truck back in the late '90s and Mazda helped me immensely when that truck's engine went south about two years into ownership.

    As always, people's mileage varies on this subject. But I don't think a blanket "Mazda does not stand behind their cars" is fair here. I'm 40 years old and unless I was just plain stupid, I would not have just purchased my sixth new Mazda vehicle if Bill's allegations were true across-the-board.

    Meade
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    My car has been puking its guts out for over a year - more than 12 trips into the dealership for (what should be) warranty problems.

    Go to a different dealer.

    But my brakes still make loud grinding noises when I stop, my AC system is still a defective piece of junk, loud thumping sounds are still coming from my front end when I hit little bumps in the road - all normal conditions according to Mazda.

    Bummer.

    A warranty is only as good as the company that is standing behind it - and in Mazda's case - that is not very good.

    Owned mazdas for 15 years. Never had an issue. Luck of the draw?

    Owned VW, had major issues. Still I'll consider going back to VW. I'm used to German cars being poorly engineered. Just the normal facts of life.
  • curiousgcuriousg Member Posts: 2
    The R32 has a completely different rear suspension that the Mk IV - it too is independant. That is one of the reasons (plus AWD) that the R32 is WAY better handling car than other Mk IV Golfs/Jettas
  • mz3bmz3b Member Posts: 13
    Why is Einstein such a personal attack?? He was a real fart smella'....er I mean smart fella'

    I thought that arguement didn't make any sense thats all. Neither does keeping a car for nine hundred million miles.....Hint: Let the clown car go dude.....take a snapshot of the odometer and stick it to your fridge or something.

    Me.....I'll always have a relatively new car after buying new which means I'l l probubly always have payments....but hey, you can't take it with you when you're dead (the money that is). So I'm going to drive a drivers car and yes feed my ego. I'll leave the VWs to those who settle for average.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Let's keep the discussion on the vehicles and not get caught up in the personal barbs. We aren't discussing Einstein here.

    Keep it civil, agree to disagree and move on.

    If anyone has issues with another member's behavior, please take it up with me in email and do not derail the conversation here.

    Thanks!
  • mz3bmz3b Member Posts: 13
    Owned VW, had major issues. Still I'll consider going back to VW.

    WOW......now thats a devoted VW enthusiest. I used to drive fords. Growing up I had a mustang, bronco, and a pickup. At about 40k miles the small block v8's started either burning or leaking something (usually oil). That got old fast! Granted they were strong running engines and the mustang was fast but that kind of agrivation is not what I want in a vehicle. I then had a Nissan pick up with the SE V6. 160K miles and didnt burn or leak a drop of anything. I was sold from there. Now I got an 04 Mz3 and I probubly wont go back to american cars even though Ford has a hand in the Mz3. The engine and drive train is all Mazda and what a job they did on the gear box too. The truth is American cars blow. Even the new caddies are cheaply made (I know I used to detail them for a limosine company). Its actually pretty pathetic. Though maybe one day I will have a classic American muscle car or street rod to call my own.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    I'll get rid of my clown car as soon as you get rid of your girlie man chick mobile. :shades:

    For the record, I got rid of my Golf long ago (after I left the military - fortunately in one piece given some of the hotspots I had to serve in). I decided to grow up and now own two Jettas (2003 Wolfsburg, 1997 Trek), and a 2003 Passat. I'll leave the "live fast, die young make a pretty corpse" type driving to you and others like you... :shades: :sick:
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    let's knock off the personal blows.

    Posts with personal knocks on each other will be deleted. They derail the discussion.

    Thanks.
  • z71billz71bill Member Posts: 1,986
    I have been to 3 different Mazda dealers - Mazda corporate is the problem.

    Has any MAZDA3 owner with a defective AC system had their problem fixed? I have seen a few posts that claim the diffusser helped some cars - but what about the owners who had the diffusser installed and still have a problem - maybe they just have bad dealers.

    What about the hard shifting tranny problem - anyone had that solved?

    I started to look for a replacement for my lemon Mazda3 - which is a real shame - the car has so many good things - but the company just will not stand behind their product. I even considered trading the 2004 (manufactured 10/2003) in on a 2005 - because I don't see very many cars (under $30K) that I really want.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    Now I understand why you've had problems. With that build date, you probably got the first or second Mazda3 that rolled off the line!!! :)

    Not that that should be a concern, I know, I know. But good grief, talk about asking for trouble!

    Listen, man. My 2005 Mazda3s wagon has a build date of 2/25/05. My car has been rock-solid and the a/c is just fine. I have 1,600 miles on the car (took delivery April 7) and I used the a/c yesterday and the day before when it hit 90 here in Richmond. My "well-insulated" body (6-1, 280 lbs.) stayed comfortable even in a long-sleeved shirt and tie.

    Since your dealer obviously knows what you've been going through, they may be more than willing -- for their sanity as well as yours -- to give you one heck of a trade toward a new Mazda3. Try it and see what they'll do.

    Meade
  • mz3bmz3b Member Posts: 13
    "live fast, die young make a pretty corpse"

    Growing old is overrated
    dying young is demonstated
    by those who live life inflated
    with fearless and fast behavior... ;)
  • mz3bmz3b Member Posts: 13
    Sounds like you got a bad apple bro. Thats a bummer because my Mz3 is fine. I run the piss out of it and the car loves it. My AC works fine, both last summer (new) and this summer. My gearbox is smooth as glass as well.

    Didn't you test drive it before you bought it? How does a gearbox all of a sudden start 'hard shifting'? Is it an auto or one of those in-between auto/manuals (which I wouldnt trust no matter who builds it). Give me the straight up manual gearbox and I'm happy.

    No auto manufacturer is perfect (especially VW :sick: ). Thats the bare bones truth.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    Incidentally, I parked next to a Mazda 3 today. At the same time I saw a Mazda 6 wagon. The Mazda 6 is what the 3 should have been. The Mazda 6 is sharp. So is the Mazda 5.
    Looks like the designers at Mazda made the 3 its neglected red-haired stepchild - the 3's bulbous, Jabba-the-Hut type body has Ringling Brothers written all over it. I was waiting for the clowns to come out of the car. With its bulging hoodline, if the 3 were a pro athlete, it would be banned from the league for steroids.

    At least the 6 and the 5 exhibit the smooth, flowing, European automobile-like shape. The designers beat the 3 with the ugly stick. If my old military unit saw the 3 driving out on the road, our A-10 aircraft tank killer (equipped with a 30mm gatling gun with armor-piercing shells) would use the 3 for target practice.

    The 3 may go fast or handle great, but that's because the car is so homely that it has to run away from its own looks.

    Other than that, the 3 is a decent ride.

    But remember, clown car or not - The GTI is the originator, the definition of the hot hatch (as much as people are in denial) - the facts are there. And according to most auto magazines and automotive experts around the world - The GTI still defines the hot hatch - Ford 3/Mazda Focus or not.

    No matter how reliable the 3 is, it will always play second-fiddle to the GTI in the hearts and minds around the world... ;) Like it or not...
  • z71billz71bill Member Posts: 1,986
    So if I would have waited until 2006 to buy a Mazda3 - and got one that had all kinds of problems would anyone say - gee you should have waited until the 4th model year! If anyone thinks that because I bought a new model that this somehow makes all of these problems my fault - or I should have known better - I just don't agree. I have purchased new (first year) models many times - all had a few bugs - but all were fixed under warranty without any complaint.

    Although I do understand that buying a new model as a certain risk (maybe an extra trip or 2 to the dealer) - the company selling the car should still stand behind the vehicle. To just accept NO SERVICE - NO WARRANTY because this is a new model is (IMO anyway) pure BS

    I test drove the car 3 times before buying it.

    The tranny (automatic) started shifting harsh (1-2 gear) 3 months or so after I bought it. At first it was a few times each morning - like it was cold and after a mile or so it would be so smooth you could not even tell it was changing gears. So I did not see it as that big of a deal. But now it is obviously harsh - like a clunk about 1/2 the time - always in the morning - but also after the car has warmed up. I also get a very large CLUNK every few days -

    I called Mazda customer service and ask them if they have a TSB on this problem - they told me that they can not give any information to customers about TSB's. Which seems strange because they gave me a TSB on both the AC diffusser and also on the grinding rear brake defect. I was given a case number - that a service tech can use when the call the tech support line.
  • biggus3biggus3 Member Posts: 32
    "Incidentally, I parked next to a Mazda 3 today. At the same time I saw a Mazda 6 wagon. The Mazda 6 is what the 3 should have been."

    Now that would defeat the purpose of the 3 now wouldn't it. The 3 is a compact. The 6 wagon is a wagon. Besides its the best selling Mazda globally. It must be the hottest red headed step child ever. Enough said about that.

    Is the GTI really that good looking. Im not a fan. The front end is too boy racer for me and the back end looks bloated (funny you claimed that about the Mazda3). The car has narey a line to it either. Look at the side profile. You could play pool on the side of the car its so flat. You claim the Mazda3 is ugly. Thats ok. You are the first person I have heard that from. I can live with one person out of a hundred thinking my car is ugly.

    Lastly, I will give you that the GTI did define the segment. Define being past tense. In Europe, where this segment actually gets some love and attention, the GTI plays second fiddle to the Focus and Astra. While the Focus here now sucks, Id still take a Mazda3 or a Mini as my pick for the best hatch in America. The current GTI looks like a box on wheels. Beyond that, its hardly a handler. Thats kind of a deal killer for the segment. Perhaps the next GTI will give more credit to the GTI, but its all just a matter of time till the Mazdaspeed3 makes it a mute point. The 3 already handles as good or better than the GTI. The Mazdaspeed3 will surely handle better than that. Tack on 50hp or so more than the GTI and this is really not much of a comparison.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    Mazda in its own right is a good manufacturer. It's association with one of the Big Three, however is what is a turn off to me - especially given the Big Three's management philosophy of buying a company and trying to apply their own badge-engineering principles to it. Look at what GM has done to Saab, for example....

    The Mazdaspeed 3 better find a way to tune the engine so its peak torque comes on as broad as the GTIs (1750 to 5000 rpm), otherwise all that extra horsepower won't give it much of an extra advantage.

    Based on the articles written around the world - the GTI not only gives credit to the original GTI, it also re-defines the hot hatch segment (their words, not mine)..

    Instead of having a car that aspires to be like the GTI - I'd rather have the original.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Biggus, while I'm a big fan of the Mazda3, I gotta say on paper the upcoming GTI (already out in europe), seems to obliterate Mazda's cute little hatch. Engine wise, well there's no comparing the roughness of the 2.3 to Audi/VW's superb FSI 2.0. That engine is officially rated at 200 hp, but if you check dynos people are running with it you'll see they're getting 195 at the wheels! Which means the engine is really pulling about 220. BMW under rates their engines too.

    Beyond that Mazda has made strides in the interior. The Mazda3's interior is leaps better than the cruddy Protege interior but still it's filled with hard plastics, cheap leather (or worse, cloth) and lots of questionable bits. Nice for the level of car. Until one gets into a VW, then it's apparent Mazda (and everybody else) have much work to do to match those superb interiors.

    I can't comment on the handling (haven't driven the unreleased gti yet) but from past experience, Mazda's handle better than MkIV Jetta/Golfs. On the flip side, a Mazda at 80 mph drones and becomes tiresome while the MkIV could quietly cruise all day at hyper-legal levels. Supposedly the new GTI's handling is massively improved, while the car still has a closed up, comfortable feel. We'll see.

    One last thing, DSG. Having driven an Audi with DSG I admit I'm in love with that tranny. Best manual I've ever touched. Wow. Mazda's manuals are quick and fun. The DSG feels like heaven though. instant upshifts and downshifts. Just fantastic.
  • biggus3biggus3 Member Posts: 32
    The Mazdaspeed6 hits peak torque, 280 ft/lbs, at 2000 rpm. It stays there till 6000 rmp. The two vehicles will use the same basic engine with the same basic setup. Granted the Mazdaspeed3 will be detuned, but Im sure the torque band will be comparable. Correct me if im wrong, but the new GTI makes 220 ft/lbs at peak. If all the reports are true, the Mazda3 will be making 255 hp (vs. 276 in the 6). This means that peak torque should be 240-260 at least. I'll take the 30 extra foot pounds and wider band even if it comes 250 rpm later than the GTI. But hey...this is all just speculative.

    On the subject of badge engineering, Saab and Mazda are two different beasts. In fact, Ford and GM are two different beasts. Granted, GM badge engineers almost everything and its been that way for years (Cavalier/Sunfire Yukon/Escalade ...). In Mazda's case, look at the Focus and Mazda3. They share engineering resources, but are two different beasts. The Mazda is aimed at performance while the Focus is aimed at a more general population. The MZR 2.3L engine block is common to both cars, yet they are tuned quite differently. Furthermore, look at Volvo. It still has its own personality. It still has its own agendas (read safety). What it did allow is for the Ford conglomerate to design an excellent frame common to the Focus, Mazda3, and S40 while cutting development costs. Granted there are exceptions to this such as the Taurus and Sable, but those are only fleet cars no one cares about anyway. For more info, look for an interview of Hisakazu Imaki, Mazda's CEO (I dont believe that I can post the location due to it coming from a competing site to edmunds)

    As stated in earlier posts, I have no real performance beef against the 2006 GTI. I just think that the current GTI is a dog and the 2006 will be soon eclipsed. In Europe by the Astra and here by the Mazdaspeed3. Just because the GTI was the first car to define the segment, does not mean that every hot hatch wants to be like the GTI. Its like saying that every rock and roll singer aspires to be like Elvis. Concepts change over time even if they still fall under the same genre. There is no way you can say that the previous generation GTI was the hottest hatch in the segment. Not in competition with the SVT Focus, Mini, or even the Mazda3. Not one of those cars aspired to be a GTI. None of those cars aspired to have vanilla styling, so/so handling, and lousy reliability. They probably inspired to do better than the GTI and in each case suceeded. Again this does not imply that they want to be a GTI.
  • biggus3biggus3 Member Posts: 32
    "Biggus, while I'm a big fan of the Mazda3, I gotta say on paper the upcoming GTI (already out in europe), seems to obliterate Mazda's cute little hatch. Engine wise, well there's no comparing the roughness of the 2.3 to Audi/VW's superb FSI 2.0. That engine is officially rated at 200 hp, but if you check dynos people are running with it you'll see they're getting 195 at the wheels! Which means the engine is really pulling about 220. BMW under rates their engines too."

    Thats why the comparison is for the GTI vs the Mazdaspeed3

    Kudos on the interior though. Ive admitted in the past Im a fan of VW interiors.

    I really have few complaints about my Mazda3 at highway speeds. I regularly ride in a 2003 Cadillac STS and 2002 Audi A4 (Parents cars). I really cant tell much difference.

    Cant say anything about the DSG. Ive heard its good. Until then, the shifter on the 3 is the best I have ever used. Besides, I like to row my own gears. Thats half the fun.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    "...does not mean that every hot hatch wants to be like the GTI."

    Actually, almost everyone wants to be like the Focus. Even BMW's new 5-link rear suspension is suppose to be applying the similar trick as Focus's original 4-link Control Blades designed in the '90's. BMW, in fact, almost bought the Focus I's platform back then.

    The Mazda3 is really a Japanese-ized Focus II. Just like the '99 N.A. Escort (& even the early Kia Sephia) is derived from the '90 Protege.

    VW had to hire the original Focus engineers to design the Control Blades for the new Passat/A3/Golf/Jetta/Toledo, etc.

    So when the lemon N.A.-built Focus I became superbly reliable lately wearing Mazda-developed engines (per CR's trouble-spot chart for the '03/04 models), I grabbed an ST. While I complain about my ST's ride w/ SVT shocks & sway bars being a little too tight & the pure-hydraulic steering still being tuned a little too light, the Mazda3 is suppose to be even worse. & VW's pure-electric steering might be even worse than Mazda3's electro-hydraulic. What the Golf/Jetta really excels is the quietness & the ride comfort of the longer-spring non-GTI models. Mazda3's high dose of oversteer might not be much of a winner when comes to slippery unfamiliar twisty roads.

    Some one mentioned earlier about newer cars being "girlie". That's exactly how I feel about the Mazda3 & the recent VW's when comparing to my pure-hydraulic-steering '90 Protege & manual-steering Mk1 Jetta. No wonder BMW backed off from electric steering after the Z4 experimentation.

    As far as the looks of... The Mazda3 hatch looks like an SUV, so it's not a good-looking "car". The Golf still looks pretty boring. The '78 Scirocco Champagne Edition II still looks the best. :P
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Thats why the comparison is for the GTI vs the Mazdaspeed3

    My bad, lots of subscriptions. Still baffled why the press release had the mazdaspeed3 so slow on 0-60 runs. ??? Strange with all that power you'd assume the car would be more spritely. And going off the idea of FWD, we can't blame weight gain like the AWD setup on the Mazdaspeed6 (a car that is a major let down for me).

    Kudos on the interior though. Ive admitted in the past Im a fan of VW interiors.

    Mazda did a great job if you compare the 3 to the Pro. They're definitely way more upmarket now.

    I really have few complaints about my Mazda3 at highway speeds. I regularly ride in a 2003 Cadillac STS and 2002 Audi A4 (Parents cars). I really cant tell much difference.


    I'm sure I could as my friend's Mazda3 is fun but at 85-90 it's making quite a racket on the freeway.

    Cant say anything about the DSG. Ive heard its good. Until then, the shifter on the 3 is the best I have ever used. Besides, I like to row my own gears. Thats half the fun.

    And with a dsg you row your own gears too. Why do people think you don't? Yes there's an option for D/S but the paddle shifters and the manual mode are the real attraction of the tranny. The DSG GTI is 0.3 seconds faster to 60 than the manual GTI. That's precisely because the manual mode and dual clutches of the DSG allow you to shift faster than any human can slap from first to second. Clutch in, move lever, clutch out v. click, millisecond shift.

    Go drive an A3 DSG. You'll probably be amazed at how that tranny's so fast and yet liquid smooth. I'm rarely blown away by technology. That thing amazed me.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    I've heard Beemer's robotic box can do that if hold both levers in or something like that.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    I love the style of those early Giugiaro-designed Sciroccos - I had a 1975 (replaced the troublesome Zenith carburetor with a 2-bbl Weber downdraft and swapped the ignition points with an electronic ignition module) - and I loved driving it (even drove cross-country three times with it - especially through a December snowstorm in Utah) - until a tractor-trailer decided to occupy the same lane I was driving in... :(

    VWVortex has an early Scirocco as one of their featured cars. A modified VW 16v engine (from a 16v Scirocco) was retrofitted in that 1800 lb body. The car absolutely shreds!!! :shades: :shades: :shades:
  • biggus3biggus3 Member Posts: 32
    As far as the road noise, you may be right. Living in downtown Minneapolis doesnt allow me to drive my car much past 70. There may be lots of road noise as those speeds, but when you are doing 90, do you really care?

    As far as the DSG goes, It just doesnt sound appealing to me. I enjoy using a clutch. I enjoy running through the gears, double-clutching, and having an excuse not to have other people drive my car. DSG may be faster than I will ever be, but I just dont see the excitement in hitting a paddle or blipping a stick straight up or down. Its undoubtably a great innovation, just not my cup of tea.
  • biggus3biggus3 Member Posts: 32
    "Mazda3's high dose of oversteer might not be much of a winner when comes to slippery unfamiliar twisty roads."

    I have never heard anyone complain about oversteer in a FWD car. After all, oversteer requires the rear wheels to get loose, generally from trying to drive them when they are being pushed to their limits. Did you mean understeer?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    There may be lots of road noise as those speeds, but when you are doing 90, do you really care?

    Yes I do. 90 on the freeway is pretty normal for me,so it does matter. On road trips it definitely matters. i've had my 330i well over 100 for extended drives and the car was still quiet and smooth.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I have never heard anyone complain about oversteer in a FWD car. After all, oversteer requires the rear wheels to get loose, generally from trying to drive them when they are being pushed to their limits. Did you mean understeer?,/I>

    he probably does mean understeer. Regardless, with my Protege it is pretty easy to induce oversteer and with my old modded Jetta this was also true. Sure makes the cars more fun. :D
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    When I test drove the '90 Protege & almost spun out during trail-throttle cornering at about 35 mph, I bought the car anyway thinking I could compensate by adding more air in the back -- how ignorant of me! This early-version TTL (Twin Trapezoid Links) rear suspension is a faulty design. Even C&D had a "heart in the mouth" moment on the FWY ramps. TTL, at least the earlier one, is primitive & changes the camber too much. So even w/ the built-in toe-in movement, it still can't hold the road & will end up in the point of no return. Even the less aggressive set up in the Escort still requires, according to C&D, throttle rather than counter steer in order to correct the oversteer. In this case, It can get you into trouble. Because some slow poke blocked me on a FWY ramp before, & I couldn't use the gas to counter my Protege's oversteer.

    The 4-link Control Blades, which is originally from the Focus, is much better than the TTL when comes to providing smooth & predictable oversteer. My Focus ST can oversteer (actually 4-wheel drift) only if you provoke it, so it's very tossable in just about any situation. Oversteer happens much more often in the Mazda3, whether you're beating a left-turn yellow light or simply twisting the steering wheel doing abrupt lane change on the FWY. I had fun fine-tuning the 3S's oversteer/neutral/understeer balance by fluctuating the throttle when beating a yellow light making a left turn, & that 3S had 205/55-16 (My ST has 205/50-16). But, still, I can imagine how I can't react in time in the Mazda3 if the road is slippery -- this car needs the DSC option in certain situations.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I like oversteer. Makes the car fun. :D
  • biggus3biggus3 Member Posts: 32
    "But, still, I can imagine how I can't react in time in the Mazda3 if the road is slippery -- this car needs the DSC option in certain situations."

    Maybe Im wrong, but I cant think of a single economy car with stability control. It defeats the purpose of economy car. Besides, most stability control systems, less the really nice expensive ones from the likes of Porsche and who not, are intrusive and would damage the sporting character of the car. That and there are quite a few people around here who enjoy sliding the rear end out a little. Is there any Mazda with DSC?
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    They all do, just not here except the sporty RX-8. I like the ride/handling of the base-suspension RX-8 automatic, but the DSC only comes w/ sport suspension.

    In case you don't know about the legendary non-intrusive DSC (or ESP, etc.) available in Europe for the Focus since the late '90's. Bruno, who posted in the Mazda3 discussion when the car first came out, tested a Mazda3 w/ DSC in France & agreed w/ me about the DSC's non-intrusiveness. The Focus engineers can afford to keep the setting non-intrusive because such rear-suspension design already provides rather predictable rear-end slide. Even if my Focus ST was available w/ DSC (Advance Trak that was discontinued since '04 in America), I'd turn it off 99% of the time. But it is that 1% when you really need it, as I also like to test the car's limit on slippery conditions. Once a car fishtails on slippery surface, it might keep continue. Because there's hardly any tire friction to stop the pendulum-like momentum. I love to drift the tail safely, that's why I'm looking forward to get the comfy-riding new RWD Miata by using the engine power, rather than the max cornering g-force, to TEMPORARILY slide the tail all the time even at 25 mph.

    My only experience w/ such similar system as the Focus/Mazda3 DSC was on the new S40 driving around the cones in the rain. I pushed it at rather impossible speeds as the car drifts a little on each turn, & eventually drifted over the cones & got kicked out of the Volvo invitation test drive. But I was sold -- I love it when the road is slick, & can turn it off if I want to.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    The Mazdaspeed6 hits peak torque, 280 ft/lbs, at 2000 rpm. It stays there till 6000 rmp. The two vehicles will use the same basic engine with the same basic setup. Granted the Mazdaspeed3 will be detuned, but Im sure the torque band will be comparable. Correct me if im wrong, but the new GTI makes 220 ft/lbs at peak.

    Mazda claims the MZ6 makes those numbers. but so far reviews have shown the engine and the ultra-heavy car to be rather slow - high 6s for 0-60 runs. I'm looking forward to mz3 but it's hard to say one can believe mazda about hp given the miata and rx-8 fiascos.

    The GTI makes 207 lb-ft. Officially. Of course, dyno runs on the GTI are showing the car is putting down 200 wheel hp, or 220 hp. So , like BMW, VW/audi is underrating engines. Promise a little and over deliver...makes more sense.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    they got to justify the price of the VR6 models.
  • z71billz71bill Member Posts: 1,986
    I thought that published HP & torque numbers were the respective amounts "at the drive wheel" - not like years ago when the published specs were "at the fly wheel (or was it called at the crank?)"

    With cars produced in the 60's the published spec could be 390 HP (like my 69 Chevelle SS 396) but put it on the dyno and it was lucky to make 320 HP.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Nobody rates WHP. They all do at the source. Can't change that suddenly as your competitors won't do it too and suddenly people will see an even bigger discrepancy.
  • z71billz71bill Member Posts: 1,986
    I could recall some change to how HP is measured "gross" VS "net" - so I did a search - this is what I found.

    SAE Net Horspower
    In 1972, American manufacturers phased in SAE net horsepower. This is the standard on which current American ratings are based. This rating is measured at the flywheel, on an engine dyno, but the engine is tested with all accessories installed, including a full exhaust system, all pumps, the alternator, the starter, and emissions controls.

    SAE Gross Horsepower
    This is the old process that American manufacturers used as a guide for rating their cars. It was in place until 1971. SAE gross also measures horsepower at the flywheel, but with no accessories to bog it down. This is the bare engine with nothing but the absolute essentials attached to it; little more than a carb, fuel pump, oil pump, and water pump.
  • biggus3biggus3 Member Posts: 32
    The MZ6 may run a high 6, but it weighs 3600 pounds. Assuming that the Mazdaspeed3 doesn't get AWD, it should have a curb weight close to the regular 3s, which is down near 2900 pounds. Even if the horsepower is vastly over estimated, it should weigh about the same as the GTI but with more power over a comparable powerband.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    More power over a comparable power band... Well, having experience with the 1.8T and 2.0T, i'll be very surprised if Mazda can produce a turbo that feels that good.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    I went to the JD Powers site and compared VWs and Mazdas, and you know what - overall their average ratings are about the same (six in one, one-half dozen of the other).

    BTW - The almighty Toyota (the bellweather of reliability) had to recall 880,000 of their trucks and SUVs, and have received many complaints on their Prius hybrid losing power around 45-60mph.

    In other words - NO automaker is immune to recalls or problems.

    So comparing apples to oranges or who's car is more reliable is basically an exercise in wasted energy.... :shades:
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    http://images.ibsys.com/2005/0518/4503505.jpg

    I guess both brands have a lot of work to do... :(
  • mdaffronmdaffron Member Posts: 4,421
    The JD Powers rankings cover new-car issues like rattles and squeaks. They in no way reflect the long-term reliability of the car. If you want that, you'll have to go to Consumer Reports or Consumer Guide ... which will tell you that recent-year Volkswagens are HORRIBLE compared to recent-year Mazdas.

    I'm not just spouting off my personal feelings. I have evidence, in the form of a November 2004 rating by Consumer Reports. Look at the "Small Cars" chart; you'll see the Mazda3 in the "Most Reliable" column. Look what car maker owns the entire "Least Reliable" column:

    http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/08/pf/autos/cr_auto_reliability/

    Meade
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    I wouldn't gloat too much...as long as Mazda is owned by Ford (the manufacturer of the crypt-keeper 500), there's always the possibility of the organization being infected by the Big Three virus (badge engineering, bean-countered engineering, etc.) - which has the tendency to bollocks up a perfectly good manufacturer...(See: GM-Saab, GM-Subaru).

    The VW auto group may bollocks up their current offerings, but at least their organization subscribes to an engineering philosophy, and prefers to innovate (albeit making mistakes along the way), rather than wait for someone else to do the innovation, and simply copy it...

    Current innovations: DSG Transmission, Direct-Injection Gas Engines, Direct-Injection diesel engines, electric/hydraulic steering, 4-speed windshield wiper delay, automotive interior design, reverse-flow cooling systems, first production all-wheel drive automotive line (Audi Quattro), crumple zones, front/side/head curtain airbags as standard equipment, etc.

    I'll take the HORRIBLE innovator over the Most Reliable follower any day of the week... :shades:
  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    The VW auto group may bollocks up their current offerings, but at least their organization subscribes to an engineering philosophy, and prefers to innovate (albeit making mistakes along the way), rather than wait for someone else to do the innovation, and simply copy it...
    I'll take the HORRIBLE innovator over the Most Reliable follower any day of the week...


    After witnessing the staggering win this weekend in Monaco at the Formula 1 for the top three positions by two German firms (1st: McLaren/Mercedes, 2nd & 3rd: BMW ) I must agree. The new Mercedes engine is amazing! Kimi Raikonnen has deposed Michael Schumacher!

    But, as far as consumer products go, I cannot put innovation ahead of reliability. I'm not a test driver just a driver. Moreover, you cannot innovate without reliability as Ferrari has learned this year.

    The good news is innovation is happening everywhere in the car market these days; the Japanese firms are prime examples of that.
  • z71billz71bill Member Posts: 1,986
    Consumer reports -

    Toyota #1, Scion (really Toyota) #2, Honda #3 then finally Mazda #4

    Kind of sad when you get real excited over finishing in 4th place -

    I can see the Mazda management team - jumping up and down in a conference room in Japan - chanting were #4 - were #4 - were #4.

    But as long as you are reading consumer reports maybe you can tell me what blender I should buy - I need one that will grind ice.
  • biggus3biggus3 Member Posts: 32
    crumple zones were patented by mercedes

    intermittent wipers were developed by ford. adding speeds is about two lines of code on a microproccessor.

    direct injection gasoline engines were implemented on airplanes in the 30s

    front/side/head curtain airbags as standard equipment is not an innovation, just a choice

    VW may be an innovator, but PLEASE stop tooting their horn about being the end all be all in automobile innovation. Volvo (of the ford conglomerate) has made numerous innovations in the regards to safety. Ford developed adaptive cruise control. Honda developed variable valve technology. GM has displacement on demand. Toyota has its Hybrid system. Lets not forget the years of innovation from Ford before VW was even a significant player. Yeah VW developed DSG. We know. Get over it.

    Secondly, you cant compare what GM has done its brands to what Ford has done to its. For example, Volvo has a completely different agenda then ford. If you look at a volvo, it looks completely different than a mazda, ford, jaguar, ect. GM has done a great job of killing brand distinction by releasing a plethora of vehicles that have the same mechanical structure but different names. Ford has not done that. Granted there are some exceptions to this. The Taurus/Sable has not been a significant force now for 6-7 years. It serves as a fleet vehicle now. Why bother trying to be innovative on a car when you are just going to use them for fleet use. The Volvo S40, Mazda3, and Ford Focus (European) were co-developed. Despite this, they are three very different vehicles. They have all however benefited from each other. Volvo is the end all be all in safety and as a result the Focus and Mazda have benefited from their knowledge. Mazda has been known for having fun cars to drive. This was a DRASTIC improvement from the previous S40. And Ford has the ability to give resources (monetary and knowledge) to make the whole thing possible. As a result, because of the cooperation between the companies, you have a segment leaders in the mazda3 and european focus and a car that has gone from the cellar of the entry-luxury sedan category to car that can compete with a 3 series or A4. That would not have been possible if Volvo was only Volvo or Mazda only Mazda.

    Badge engineering isn't always a bad thing. It keeps development costs down which lead to less expensive vehicles on the consumer end. Granted when you lose identity it goes bad, but Ford has not done that.

    You can take the HORRIBLE innovator, but I will take pleasure when I see your ugly vehicle broken down on the side of the road. Innovation doesnt mean squat if your car isnt running.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Volvo's S40 looks just like a Mazda3 sedan. From a distance they have exactly the same shape. Not putting down the Mazda3 but man the volvo is...obviously Forded.

    Regardless, buy the car that's fun for you. I used to worry about reliability. Had american cars and they broke down. had japanese cars that ran forever. had unreliable german cars. In the end, I'd pick the fun cars first - german or japanese. Both the GTI and Mazdaspeed3 are on my radar for 06. My decision won't come down to the history of the makes, the owners of either brand or even what new technology they have. It will be determined by how much fun and value I get for my dollar. If the GTI is more fun with the 2.0T (insanely nice engine) and DSG (the perfect tranny out there?) I'll get it. If the Mazdaspeed3 with handling (based on the regular 2.3H) that's seemingly telepathic and a free-revving turbo gooses me, I'll get it. Reliablity...bah. Give me fun.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    My HORRIBLE vehicles dont break down - because I MAINTAIN them...(and that includes the 4 VW's I've owned (2 currently) - that's what REAL men do! You can learn a lot from my 25+ years of owning and maintaining vehicles. I can make any vehicle last the distance. If you are worried about breakdowns, then go the safe route and stick to your reliable vehicle - the true essence of automobile ownership is dealing with things when they go bad - instead of whining about it... :shades:

    If you want an example of my experience - In this GTI link there is a forum called "VR6 engine swaps" - Read posts #13 and #14. This is the essence of car ownership - it is not for the timid...
This discussion has been closed.