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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si

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Comments

  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Insanely good deals on the Mazda3 right now. Your VW experience sounds just like experience in 01.
  • nschulman3nschulman3 Member Posts: 125
    The primary reason I stick with Subarus is because of their tuning potential. I have a WRX TR. Granted, it isn't luxurious, but everything is easy to find and works. The transmission on the new WRX is miles better than my 02 WRX and the ride pretty much absorbs anything. There is no worry about torque steer and the car is tremendously fun to drive. I understand the desire for some luxury and upscale materials, but I also have a G35. The GTI would have been my choice were it my only car, although I was also worried about reliability. A good set of tires to replace the horrible R-92s, a Cobb accessport and decent cat-back exhaust greatly improves performance with no negatives. The only problem can b e warranty issues, but the car is bulletproof. The Civic SI is a great car, too, but I can't get past the lack of torque. The MS3 , where I live in NOrthern Jersey was selling at above sticker and had high finance rates. Plus, I refuse to buy a car without driving it first, no matter how glowing the reviews.
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    I guess VW's smooth DSG is too high tech for a BMW driver :), who might have only experienced the primitive clunky SMG.

    Still, if DSG's gear selector has a shift pattern of a manual, then drivers will know which gear he has selected & therefore no visual confirmation will be necessary!
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    "...the car has pretty rubbery feel at the limits"

    Yep, VW/Audi's have this problem since the introduction of the MkIV Golf/Jetta around '99. That's why I ended up getting a noisy '84 Jetta w/ manual steering instead. ;)
  • carfanatic007carfanatic007 Member Posts: 267
    This post actually bums me out. Even though I own a Honda now, I have owned more VW's then Hondas, a 1987 VW GTI, a 1998 VW GTI VR6 and a 2001 VW GTI 1.8T. (The worst of the bunch). I actually loved VW's until the reliability issue roared its ugly head. That is why I will probably never own another VW. :sick:
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    Sorry for harshing the Si. I'm not a big Honda fan - beyond their transmissions - and I have really negative associations of Hondas with the fast and the furious crowds of southern california. I see a Civic, Accord, TL, Integra and I expect it to be driven by a 16 year old with his hat on backwards. It'll probably have cut springs, 18s and a loud muffler too. There's an unkind term people in socal use for Hondas and kids who drive them; shockingly some of my friends have used that term when I expressed passing interest in Honda products

    Hey blue guy i gotcha!! :) I totally feel the same. The term you are reffering to; ricer is it? I acutally looked it up, apparently it refers to any kind of commuter car that has the cut springs, huge rims-ugly muffler-horrible primered body kit type of car that has no real performance mods on it. (granted having a combo of the two still does not justify the visual horrendousnes of it!) I'm a native so-cal. too so i know what you mean.

    Its a shame that a honda has gotten this bad rap; i hate kids like that. Its one of the reasons i'm happy to drive a vw now, and the reson why i liked the new civic so much, it seemed to be less 'fast and furious' and more upscale. But low and behold, even it has been hit with it. (unless its the hybird, but even then, there are some people...) Its actually kind of funny that we mention the fast and the furious; theres an r32 in the newest one, and one of the most prominently displayed cars in the orginal was a jetta. :blush: I know i know, its still not to the extent of honda or nissan though.

    I hate the image personally, i think honda kinda hates it too; hence why serious tuners have been shying away from honda, given their increases in weight and suct, etc, which is to be expected, they are a car company that is ever improving their products. At the same time its also funny to know that the few si sedans i've seen, its been a mid 30's guy driving one and the other was a man well into his 50's! Honda may have this 'ricer' thing as baggage, but there are still a few loyals who know better. ;) Even vw gets the occasional huge spoiler guys.

    Having said that, if you look at a lot of honda tuning magazines, you'll see very little huge spoilers and such. Most honda guys shun that kind of crap and a front lip is all you'll usually see. My buddies civic is like, the prime platform for 'ricing' and yet it looks as stock as can be. (minus his rims and huge intercooler. :P )

    Still, i don't blame you for your decison. I love the dsg and in all honesty, i don't think i would ever go back to a civic or such if i was to buy another honda. Right now, despite high service costs and just ok mileage, i see no reason to abandon my bunny and hope to run her to the ground. Unless i have some sort of horror story (knock on wood) i'll be with her for a while. The only other thing would be having kids and getting something bigger like an element or crv. (but then i'll have the tiguan to look into!)

    I understand your view blue, and i don't blame you. The gti to me is the best daily driver here, and the fact that the wifey wants and auto makes it even better.

    Its ok about the harshness, i get mad at stuff too!
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I'd suggest you quickly edit your post and remove the term. It's viewed in many forums as racist. Just an FYI.

    After spending the weekend looking for a replacement car, the GTI still remains at the top. The Miata seemed like a shoo-in until my fiancee informed me that she likes the car but never wants to drive with the top down. Uh, defeats the purpose as we're in san diego and having lived here with verts, you keep the top down at least 50% of the year.

    Really seems to just be the mini and GTI now. Mini has the edge because of the resale value - I plan to dump the car in 2 years.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    Not to mention that the Honda's "Fast and Furious" type popularity makes it an attractive target for thieves, thugs, and gangs. I'm pretty sure the insurance companies realize this as well - and charge ($$$$) accordingly...

    your serious huh? This is great! Maybe this is true for a 1996 model, but i don't many 'thugs and gangsters' are eying grandma's civic hybrid, or mr. college students fit to steal it.

    Man. Just what i needed on a monday morning. :)
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    I know some people look at it that way, but if there was ever a honda fan, i'm certainly one. If the moderators want me to take it off thats fine, i'll do it. I'm sure they don't want a bunch of email from people who are ignorant asking why they have not asked me to edit yet.

    Since the term applies to ANY tricked out car done poorly, including american cars (look it up on wikipedia the first car shown is a dodge neon.), so for those who take offense, sorry but do your research.

    My wife wants a mini too.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    agreed avi. But we were just talking about possiblites. And not all who do this are that young anyway.

    And its not just limited to the new civics, the older ones are even better as far as tuning potential goes, but then again, its an older car and some things (very important ones.) get comprimised.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I hate the image personally, i think honda kinda hates it too

    If you have seen the latest Honda Civic ad, I think you might have to change that statement.

    The Ad shows 2 kids, once next to an Si, and the other next to a coupe, talking about their style, performance and resale. They are definalty targeting the young kid crowd. Honda makes a ton of money there, and they know it..
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    gosh really? Are you sure it isn't a local ad?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    It's a Honda corporate commercial, not any local Honda dealer.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    Maybe this is true for a 1996 model, but i don't many 'thugs and gangsters' are eying grandma's civic hybrid, or mr. college students fit to steal it.

    Don't take my word for it - ask the IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety).

    This may not be true for the latest Hondas, but it still has that Fast and Furious Japanese car stigma (especially the Civic Si) that will probably stay with the brand for quite some time... Unfortunately the car will get lumped with the Subaru WRX and the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolutions of the world.

    Having "Street Cred" is a double-edged sword, as it may also mean being a car that attracts unwanted attention from the "wrong element"...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Avi is right, it is a national commercial - I've seen it here in B'ham, and it doesn't advertise a particular dealer.
  • gogiboygogiboy Member Posts: 732
    "Don't take my word for it - ask the IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety)"

    One has to be careful not to paint the insurance picture with too broad a brush. My own, I repeat my own, insurance agent has given me 6 month figures for the GTI, MS3 and Civic SI sedan and the the GTI is the most expensive to insure followed by the MS3 and Civic SI. Now, for someone like me (M,age 50, excellent driving record, small midwest city the difference between the the GTI and Civic amounts to about $100/year.

    I actually like all three cars. Unfortunately, the closest Mazda dealership is 45 miles away and the closest VW dealer is 70 miles. I test drove the Civic SI sedan today and will test a MS3 tomorrow. The VW is just a bit above my price threshold and the dealership is too far to drive for scheduled service. There is a Honda dealer in my town willing to deal on the SI and they are offering 2.9% financing. I have to admit that a hatchback would be more useful though. I'm currently driving a 94 civic, but have owned a Golf as well. It's hard to see how one could go wrong with any of the three choices--until a better picture emerges of how each ages/depreciates. I do wish the Civic SI was available as a hatchback for a better head-to-head comparison with the MS3 and GTI.

    Gogiboy
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    Remember a Honda TV commercial just a few years ago? It seems that a decent young couple in a Civic at night was suddenly surrounded/followed at by a huge bunch of young (& even gang like) kids all in their sooped up Civics. Then there's the "Civic Nation" written on the screen, while rap music was playing in the back ground. So, kids, drive a Civic, & you might even win gangs' support!

    How did you think Honda became a best seller & a very profitable company? They cover up warning lights & lie about odometer reading, respectably. While BMW happens to turn on too many warning lights. :P

    No, serious, Honda engines & transmissions are great. They just got a little cheap by removing Civic/Integra's front Double Wishbone suspension. That's why I chose to collect a 2000 Civic hatch & left it overseas in a crowded city so I don't have to find a rental car on my annual summer vacation there. & I've been bragging about how small the exterior is for a car w/ front-&-rear Double Wishbones, which give me amazing road holding & balanced drifts even w/ soft suspension & non-high-performance tires! But the car is still no fun 'cause the steering feel sucks.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I can't recall the last commercial i saw, let alone a single honda commercial. I remember an acura integra commercial from 1994 - had a cartoon dog and dennis miller did the voice over.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Advertising brilliance on Honda's part.....
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    nice post.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    this was funny!

    i feel ya ckid i wish the double wishbones would come back.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    thats funny.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    ugh tell me about it. I must say that the element commericals are pretty funny. (no pinch.) :)
  • nj2pa2ncnj2pa2nc Member Posts: 811
    the dealer has a MS3. all the mazda dealers near us do not have them in stock. when they do get them which is rare they are sold. They want us to put down a deposit and order one. We want to try it out before we buy. Plus they want more than sticker price. we will wait
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Yeah, more than sticker = put down the crack pipe.
  • gogiboygogiboy Member Posts: 732
    nj2--

    I drove an MS3 today. They weren't going to let me drive it either, stating that they had had several wrecks when customers and one general manager drove other speeds and an RX8 irresponsibly. I said it would be impossible for me to decide whether I wanted a 3 hatch or 3speed without at least a reasonable test. I said if I liked it I would agree to have them trade for a MS3 spot since the one they had was a GT with navigation and more than I wanted to spend.

    The salesman got the keys from the GM and I tested it (this is in OK City). Lord, the MS3 is fast and taut. It's just more car than I figured I could handle responsibly. The clutch is really grabby and jarring, but what a rush! In the end I figured I'd have an easier time living with a standard 5 speed S touring hatch, but I'm glad I drove the MS3. I figured with both the MS3 and Civic SI that speeding tickets would start draining my bank account, while simultaneously jacking up my insurance. It's certainly a nice car for the right buyer who is looking for a thrill on the daily drive. "Exhilarating" is the word that comes to mind. The dealer was willing to sell both the GT and sport at MSRP. It's a lot of car for the money, but "a man's got to know his limitations". There is still a small part of me feeling a tinge of regret, but I've still got my MR2.

    Gogiboy
  • creakid1creakid1 Member Posts: 2,032
    "...i wish the double wishbones would come back."

    It did, expensively along w/ a 2.4 4-cyl, in the overweight TSX, which might be available in a coupe, which might as well 'cause the MS3 has more stretch-out rear-seat leg room. :P
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    I test drove last years model TSX... it seemed a bit sluggish off the line and the suspension was kinda soft.

    Plus I didn't like the fit and finish, too many bits of hard plastic... and no back-seat a/c vents.

    (I grew up thinking that back-seat a/c vents where a hallmark of a high-end, expensive car. To see a high-end, expensive car without them tells me that the car is just overpriced.)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    High end expensive car? It's a 27k car!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yes, the price of a TSX is lower than the average transaction price of a new vehicle these days (around $29,000 according to Motor Trend).

    Heck, you can't get a Tahoe with cloth seats and manual A/C for $27k.
  • nj2pa2ncnj2pa2nc Member Posts: 811
    i never realized the tsx does not have a/c vents in the back. maybe because i never sit in the back. Oh yes, I own a 06 tsx 6spdw/nav for 4 months and 7,000+miles and so far no complaints. But then again I also love our 05 Elantra GT 5 spd. it has almost 60,000 miles.next car we are leaning towards a mazda
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Looking at this, I find it interesting that the TSX doesn't have ventilation ducts under the floor like most Hondas have for the last 15 years or more. My 1996 LX has them, our 1993 Accord EX had them (we traded that car YEARS ago). Surely the TS has them?

    I know my Accords have them. Set the ventilation to panel/floor or just floor, and feel the airflow from under the front seat into the rear seat.
  • nj2pa2ncnj2pa2nc Member Posts: 811
    i just went and checked out my tsx. I found out that when I set the ventilation on panel/floor I felt the airflow under the front seat to the rear seat. when the system is on auto and you select the temp the airflow basically goes whereever. If you do it manually, with the a/c button then you have control where the airflow goes. My mom's 98 Honda accord ex-v6 has the auto system and there is no way you can regulate where the airflow goes.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    My mom's 98 Honda accord ex-v6 has the auto system and there is no way you can regulate where the airflow goes.

    Yes there is. From full auto mode, push "mode" until you see the icon on the screen delivering the airflow you desire. The mode button is just to the right of the LCD screen, and to the left of the fan speed control knob.

    image
  • nj2pa2ncnj2pa2nc Member Posts: 811
    thanks alot for the information-very much appreciated. I will have to check it out next week when I am at my mom's. She has owned the accord since new and it has 60,000 miles on it. she is 80 years old and does not drive far. I guess I should be thankful she has her health and is able to drive.
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    No, but you can buy a VW GTI (with back seat A/C vents) for $22k.

    Or a Volvo S40 (with back seat A/C vents) for $24K.

    So should not the supposed 'luxury' marque of Acura actually OUTDO the not so premium brands of Volvo and VW?

    After all, Lexus is Toyota's luxury marque, Infiniti is Nissan's, and Acura is Honda's.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Apparently you didn't read where the TSX owner told about the under-seat A/C-Heater Ducts?

    Just curious, when all of the sudden did drivers of pocket-rockets become so concerned about back seat passengers? Seems like they'd be WAAAAY down my list of concerns. Hehehe :)
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla Member Posts: 707
    I'm not talking about underseat vents. I'm talking about the adjustable vents found in the center stack (VW/Lexus/Audi/etc) or on the side pillars (Volvo).

    Similar to the vents found in on the dashboard. Complete with 'on/off' sliders to adjust the amount of airflow.
  • nj2pa2ncnj2pa2nc Member Posts: 811
    shows how unobservant I am. My brother owns an 07 volvo s-80 and my sister-in-law has a lexus. I have been in the back seat of both Never noticed those vents. I will have to look for them next time I am in their cars. I just found out the mazda dealer near us has 3 mazdaspeed 3's. will be checking them out tomorrow.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Oh. I've always considered those nevessary in big vehicles, but compacts like the TSX and S40 I guess I never thought "adjustable" vents were a big deal.

    Just shows that we all have different requirements and needs in a vehicle. In a Lexus ES350, I could see shopping for those. They just wouldn't be a priority in a car made for low-priced performance.
  • allhorizonallhorizon Member Posts: 483
    My own, I repeat my own, insurance agent has given me 6 month figures for the GTI, MS3 and Civic SI sedan and the the GTI is the most expensive to insure followed by the MS3 and Civic SI.

    Change your insurance. That is beyond absurd.
  • carfanatic007carfanatic007 Member Posts: 267
    I test drove the MS3 today. Very fast, and felt very cheap, IMO. I would not want this as a daily driver. The GTI felt better in terms of daily driving then did the MS3. I would never purchase this vehicle. IMO, the SI is by far the best of these three vehicles. By far the best quality of interior and exterior. Best handling. Just as quick as the 2.0 turbo charged GTI. (Again, the germans can't make HP without a turbo in a small displacement engine). I'm extremely happy I purchased the SI. Good luck with the MS3, IMO a teenager race boy toy.
  • gogiboygogiboy Member Posts: 732
    "Change your insurance. That is beyond absurd"

    Why? Insurance rates vary by region, by age, by driving record, by sex, by the price of replacement parts and other actuarial information that you and I will never be privy to.

    I have been with the same insurer for 20 years, have all three cars and house insured with same, have 250/500 coverage plus a $1 million umbrella policy with no tickets or accidents. For three cars I spend $1700/year. I'm not saying that insurance can't be had for less, but calling it "beyond absurd" smacks of gross hyperbole.

    Gogiboy
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I agree about the MS3 being too rough for a daily driver. But the interior layout and quality easily surpasses the insanely cheap honda interior.

    And the Si is not even close to quick. Off the line there's a gap from the Si to the GTI to the MS3; while in motion the Si might as well not have an engine as you simply can't motivate that car to 100 mph easily.
  • ezpilzeezpilze Member Posts: 29
    I'm sorry, but I agree w/ carfanatic007 about the interior. Mazda has its interior decked out nicely, but alot of it feels like cheap thin plastic, the Si's interior atleast sounds solid when I knock on the dash board.

    The Si is definitely fast enough, I don't see why you need to be going at 100+ mph in the city. If you can keep your car going at 60+ mph for more than 3 minutes in the city, I'll praise you for that. But why do you need to go over 100+ mph on the freeway (which I'm guessing will be the only place you'll be going over 100+ mph)? Also, with a 2.0 litre NA, you can't expect the same kinda torque from the speed3 and GTI. Keep in mind the Si was meant to be FUN, not crazy competitive like the EVO.

    I'm not trying to defend the Si or anything, the speed3 is a great car (insanely fast for the price), but if you're going to say the Si is slow, then I'd recommend consider placing both cars on a windy track and then tell me how much slower the Si is compared to the speed3. The Si was NEVER meant for a drag race, so I don't even know why you're including off the line acceleration for the Si.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Good luck with your Si

    MS3, IMO a teenager race boy toy.

    Your are entitled to your opinion, however, if you look up "teenager boy toy" in the dictionary, you will see a picture of a Honda Civic Si. :P

    By far the best quality of interior and exterior

    The interior is no better the the Mazdaspeed3. Just as much plastic. Honda did not do a great job of covering it up. The GTI has the best interior, hands down.

    To each their own.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    as far as the twisties go, alot of tests have proven that the mazdaspeed owns. Maybe not my a heck of a lot, but it is a handler.

    The si is a great car, i would hardly call the interior cheap and i'd say its about on par with the mazda. But the gti does win hands down on the interior. This is the aspect in which the gti owns.

    As far as going fast on the free way, we can limit this to a more realistic number and say about 60-80. The si is a great handler, and a good bargain and defintely has a great 'tossability' factor. But because of when torque comes in on it (which is just barely shy of redline) the gti would have no problems blowing down the freeway in a quicker manner, even if it was just a real world thing like merging.(or cutting somone off! :P ) Again that just becasue of how the cars deliver their torque. Each has its own stregnths, and weaknesses.

    None of these cars were created specifically for 'drag racing'. But 0-60 times do come into play in the real world. What fun is a car along the lines of a gti/si/ms3 if you arent going to size someone up at a stoplight every once in a while? :blush:

    True, you can't expect the same amount of torque from a 2.0 n/a. But honda has been resiliant to turbos for a while, at least in the si. It may be as fast as the gti, but the gti is does it in an easier manner.
  • eldainoeldaino Member Posts: 1,618
    Again, the germans can't make HP without a turbo in a small displacement engine).

    and the [non-permissible content removed] cant seem to make torque with a naturally aspirated one. :blush:

    IMO a teenager race boy toy

    wether you want to hear it or not, wether you want to belive it or not, the civic and the si are more closely associated with the 'boy racer' image than any of the other cars we are discussing here. That isn't an opinion, it just how it is!
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    I'm not trying to defend the Si or anything, the speed3 is a great car (insanely fast for the price), but if you're going to say the Si is slow, then I'd recommend consider placing both cars on a windy track and then tell me how much slower the Si is compared to the speed3.

    I've tracked cars. The MS3's handling is a hair behind the Si. But the MS3 can hit the straights and explode, making it between corners far faster, while exiting at speeds the Si simply couldn't. Flat out could not. There is no get-up-and-go in the Si at 5k, 6k, 7k vis-a-vis the GTI/MS3.

    The Si was NEVER meant for a drag race, so I don't even know why you're including off the line acceleration for the Si.

    I never mentioned off-the-line. I'm talking about at speed - 30, 40, 50, etc. At any moving speed the MS3 takes off as if its pants were on fire. The Si at any speed slowly - and loudly - builds speed. It's handling is tight, no doubt, but unless you're autoXing, the cornering ability only helps with some twisties...not with the straights. Hit a straight with an Si and you'll never come close to nabbing 100 mph before the next corner. The MS3 pulls like a beast, so much so that 100 mph would be quite possible on many tracks.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I'd recommend consider placing both cars on a windy track and then tell me how much slower the Si is compared to the speed3.

    The already did...

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=117762
This discussion has been closed.