Audi RS4

esf · April 2006

I see A8s all the time too! I just didn't say that because they're not new cars!

Two days ago, I saw an '06 A8L with the big grille in black... with those gorgeous 19" rims! It was the best looking A8 I've seen in a while, as if they're not timeless anyway.

The S-Class seems over styled the more I see it. It must be the wheel wells- put black plastic on them and it would look like a big Kia Rio sedan! :P

I'm sure I'll be seeing about as many Q7s as S-Classes around here, if not more... Audi's poised to dominate the SUV market for the next year or two. I'm sure they won't reach Lexus RX volumes (it's amazing how many there are!), but they should be more popular than the brand-reviving Range Rover Sport and as popular as the X5.

By the way, Mercedes-Benz wishes they sold as many as Lexus in America.

merc1 · April 2006

Well ESF if Mercedes wishes they sold as much as Leuxs then where does leave Audi? Audi isn't even in the running thats where. Audi is the the German runt, or laggard if you will.

Audi isn't going to dominate anything especially the SUV market and they likely won't even reach X5 levels either especially with a new X5 due soon.

M

dhamilton · April 2006

Audi is not the runt where people have better taste in cars....Germany

esf · April 2006

FYI, the Q7 already has 15,000 pre-orders-- 12,000 of which are in America!

You, sir, are the very definition of an ignorant car "enthusiast". The whole point of being an "enthusiast" is being open to all cars, and Audi is darn good. I had two Acuras, the second of which I didn't really care for. I then bought an A6 2.7T quattro- and have been hooked on Audi ever since. Currently, I have an S4 Cabriolet. I wouldn't really call it a "runt". I wouldn't ever think of buying a BMW for myself, but I would think of buying a BMW/Mercedes-Benz for my wife, because she doesn't care about performance. Ouch. I know that hurt!

Also, Audi is selling better than BMW and Mercedes-Benz in Germany, which is the companies' home market, obviously. That says something. It also shows how the U.S. is behind in what car is the trendiest. BMW is so 20th century- and Mercedes-Benz is a bit on the arrogant side. In America, we still perceive BMW as having the best image. I think Audi's renaissance will start with the 2008 Audi R8- based on the Lamborghini Gallardo, it should change America's prestige rankings for years to come.

Finally, I have one main fact that points to Audi not being the "runt": they are Volkswagen-owned, which is the largest German car company to date. If anything, Audi has the most on its side. BMW is on its own, and Mercedes-Benz is a partner with one of the unsuccessful-of-late American companies (Chrysler).

merc1 · April 2006

You, sir, are the very definition of an ignorant car "enthusiast". The whole point of being an "enthusiast" is being open to all cars, and Audi is darn good.

Too funny, this from a person that doesn't know the basics about any other brand then Audi? Hilarious. Yet you're good at assuming what Mercedes will do as far as pricing on future models yet at the same time aren't up to date on their current models. Sounds knowledgeable to me. Too funny.

If you'd read anything I'd posted elsewhere you'd know that I like Audis a lot and hold them in higher regard than even BMW. I'd say the "ignorance" is your own, firstly to the facts about other brands (like Mercedes) and as to who likes what. Being open to all cars is something you've yet to display and when all you do is knock anything but Audi or when you do have something good to say about another brand it is packaged with a sublte knock about how they're beneath Audi as in your reason for buying a Mercedes.

Now how is it that you're able to knock the brand of your choice, but when someone knocks Audi they're "ignorant"? Sounds like a double standard to me. I'm a big fan of all the German brands and don't knock them to their supporters like some do here. (hint)

FYI, the Q7 already has 15,000 pre-orders-- 12,000 of which are in America!

FYI dealers are free to order anything they want, doesn't mean squat until we see what actually goes out the door once the vehicle goes on sale.

Also, Audi is selling better than BMW and Mercedes-Benz in Germany, which is the companies' home market, obviously. That says something. It also shows how the U.S. is behind in what car is the trendiest. BMW is so 20th century- and Mercedes-Benz is a bit on the arrogant side. In America, we still perceive BMW as having the best image. I think Audi's renaissance will start with the 2008 Audi R8- based on the Lamborghini Gallardo, it should change America's prestige rankings for years to come.

Numbers please! Audi may be ahead in Germany, but they're still the runt of the liter when it comes to Europe as a whole. In America both BMW and Mercedes are precieved as having the best image, Audi isn't even in the running, yet. You're saying that Germans are buying more Audis because they are trendy and not because they're the best cars? Interesting.

Finally, I have one main fact that points to Audi not being the "runt": they are Volkswagen-owned, which is the largest German car company to date. If anything, Audi has the most on its side. BMW is on its own, and Mercedes-Benz is a partner with one of the unsuccessful-of-late American companies (Chrysler).

We're talking about luxury brands here, not entire companies, but since you brought it up...DCX is larger than VW no matter what. Don't know where you've been but the Chrysler arm of DCX has been very successful as of late you'd have to living a cave not to see the vast difference between Chrysler and their U.S. counterparts Ford and GM. It's Audi parent VW who is just now starting to show a turnaround both here and at home while Chrysler has been on that path now for almost 2 years now.

The fact is that VW is in the same recovery room as Chrysler and Mercedes. VW and Mercedes have both had a savior in Audi and Chrysler respectively for remaining profitable while they (MB/VW) get themselves together. Now tell me different.

M

esf · April 2006

I've told you this before, and I'm saying it again. I am completely open to all luxury brands except:

Infiniti - still not enough refinement (used to Audi interiors ha)

Jaguar- everything except for their high-end models are a disappointment

Volvo - I enjoy them on road trips (especially the V70/XC70), but wouldn't consider owning one

I have owned Saabs, Acuras, Audis, Lexuses; test-driven and enjoyed Porsches, Mercedes-Benzes, Land Rovers, Volvos, Volkswagens. I can whole-heartedly say that Audi has offered the best overall package attractiveness.

Wow! Chrysler has been recovering for two whole years! What an eternity!

On a more serious note, you should acknowledge that Volkswagen needs less help than DCX. Bentley is more profitable than it has ever been; Audi has made Lamborghini almost as popular as Ferrari even with two models, Volkswagen/Audi are churning out interesting models throughout their model lines when the 300C/Charger/Magnum, Crossfire, and Caliber/Nitro are the only interesting DCX models.

Yes, Volkswagen has made a couple blunders (Phaeton), but I saw a Phaeton in a parking lot last week and it is a very handsome car. The only real reason it's not selling is because you can get a better version of it (A8) with a better badge for $4,000 more. If the Phaeton and A8L swapped badges, I can guarantee Audi would have a hit as much as the A8 has been.

Here are cars that I adore, just to let you know:

MBZ CL500/600/65 AMG, CLK, E Touring (sedan is a bit common around here), SL, S.

BMW 3, 6, 7, X5, M models.

Lexus IS, GS, RX (my wife has one), new LS, LX.

Jaguar XJ, XK.

Volkswagen Passat, Phaeton, Golf (Rabbit for 2007 in U.S./Canada), Toureg.

Acura RSX/TSX, TL.

Land Rover Range Rover Sport, Range Rover.

Maserati lineup.

Aston Martin lineup.

Cadillac CTS, 2007 Escalade, STS.

Porsche Cayman S, 911 lineup, Cayenne S/Turbo/Turbo S, Boxster.

Lincoln Navigator Platinum.

As you can see, there are plenty of cars that I would be glad to own. I can buy a BMW or Mercedes-Benz, but I choose to root for the underdog. I don't see anything wrong with that. Audi is just as good, but most Americans don't seem to recognize the fact.

The same goes to Acura, Cadillac, most Infinitis, Jaguar, Lexus, Saab, Volvo, and a few Lincolns.

*My list isn't in any particular order.*

merc1 · April 2006

I don't understand the point of this exercise. Have you not read any of my post here on Edmunds? Why do you think that I only see Mercedes-Benz? It goes without saying (if you'd read anything else I posted) that I like all cars in general and nearly all brands, but I don't make totally ridiculous statements about some of the brand that I'm not exactly crazy about.

On a more serious note, you should acknowledge that Volkswagen needs less help than DCX. Bentley is more profitable than it has ever been; Audi has made Lamborghini almost as popular as Ferrari even with two models, Volkswagen/Audi are churning out interesting models throughout their model lines when the 300C/Charger/Magnum, Crossfire, and Caliber/Nitro are the only interesting DCX models.

IMO, to make such a distinction as to who needs the most help is just plain stupid when both VW and DCX both need help. In this country it is VW that needs the most help. They've been losing money for the past 2 years and DCX has make a profit for the same amount of years. All this about Bentley, Lamborghini's profits doesn't amount to a hill of beans when VW can't make money from their core brand which is what they're having a hard time doing.

...Volkswagen/Audi are churning out interesting models throughout their model lines when the 300C/Charger/Magnum, Crossfire, and Caliber/Nitro are the only interesting DCX models...

Well you obviously aren't looking at the whole picture from DCX, only the Chrysler models that you find "interesting". Not going to argue about who finds what more interesting because there are many models from the DCX empire that I find more interesting than any amount of VW-based Bentleys.

Though for the record, I have said years ago right here on Edmunds that it is arguable that either VW or Ford has the best collection of premium brands and that corporate wide no one could compete with all these brands, if those brands are firing on all cylinders. Up until now all VW's brands haven't been,m but they seem to be now, but at the expense of VW, again until just within the past year have they turned things around at the core VW brand. You act as though VW was doing so good all this time when they clearly weren't. They've had just as hard a time worldwide a DCX has had.

Yes, Volkswagen has made a couple blunders (Phaeton), but I saw a Phaeton in a parking lot last week and it is a very handsome car. The only real reason it's not selling is because you can get a better version of it (A8) with a better badge for $4,000 more. If the Phaeton and A8L swapped badges, I can guarantee Audi would have a hit as much as the A8 has been.

True, a very handsome car and a brilliantly engineered one, but one of the dumbest marketing moves ever made. Who in their right mind thought VW could be able to sell enough 66-90K cars to warrant engineering one? It didn't sell because VW is not a luxury car maker.

For what its worth I like far more cars that are on your list, you've listed the most mainstream cars on the market.

M

jim2727 · April 2006

I asked AudiTalk what the weight of the RS4 (US model) was. They replied 3957 pounds or 1795 kilograms. I hope this is wrong because that is way too heavy.

If it is true, I wonder if Audi decontented the RS4 for the US market to offer it at a lower price than the European version.

esf · April 2006

Why do you think that I only see Mercedes-Benz?

I do not think you only see Mercedes-Benz! I was proving to you that I don't only see Audi.

I don't really understand what you mean when you say "...you've listed the most mainstream cars on the market." Are you being completely serious? I couldn't keep from laughing. I sincerely had no idea that Aston Martin and Bentley were mainstream brands. I always thought those were the Toyotas, Hondas, Fords, etc? (hah just kidding I know what you meant)

Maybach is not interesting in the least. Mercedes-Benz has created a monstrosity, and the motto of Maybach should be "The Difference Between Taste and Money". I have never seen such ugly cars for over $300,000- just think: for less than half the price, you can get the sexiest car in the world (generally regarded), the Aston Martin V8 Vantage ('07).

If you think the Phaeton was a dim witted business move, talk to me about bringing back the Rabbit nameplate for the U.S. and Canada instead of Golf. Hmm... I wonder if it ever occurred to them that most men don't want to be seen in a Rabbit? This is possibly a way for Volkswagen to attract more American buyers to the Audi A3! :P

You have to recognize, however, that Volkswagen has done very well this year and last year. The Jetta has done better than they expected, I'm *sure* the GTI is on back-order, and Passats are a-dime-a-dozen around Chicago.

I've even seen four Phaetons in the last week- the most I've ever seen! :surprise:

They've had just as hard a time worldwide a DCX has had.

Really? I haven't noticed them doing poorly worldwide. It's been mostly U.S. operational problems- and the Phaeton was a project that costed more than it brought in. In other parts of the world (Europe, Asia), the Jetta, Golf, New Beetle and Toureg diesels are doing commendably well.

esf · April 2006

I'm sorry to say that the weight isn't on audiusa... but I'm sure this was a typo.

A model based on the A4 wouldn't way 400 lbs less than an A8L, ASF or not!

I would say it's more like 3500 pounds, especially because 420hp can propel the little sedan from a standstill to 60 in 4.6 seconds. That's M5 territory! (BMW's released stats say 4.7 for the M5, which is modest I'm sure, but I don't think the RS4 is much slower. The RS4 is faster than both the M5 and M6 around the Nürburgring.)

merc1 · April 2006

I do not think you only see Mercedes-Benz! I was proving to you that I don't only see Audi.

Did I ever say you saw just Audi? No. This all started with the silly assumptions about Mercedes and what they'll do as far as pricing is concerned on new models.

You have to recognize, however, that Volkswagen has done very well this year and last year. The Jetta has done better than they expected, I'm *sure* the GTI is on back-order, and Passats are a-dime-a-dozen around Chicago.

Now earlier when I stated that Chrysler had been doing well for the last couple of years you saw that as a joke, yet the above is supposed to mean something? Ok. You're saying the exact same thing about VW that I said about Chrysler. Face it, both VW and Chrysler have had a hard time and neither has any room to breathe easy which is why I said it really silly to get into a shouting match about who needs the most help.

I don't what to think of VW bringing back the Rabbit nameplate just yet, it may or may not work. Either way the Golf/Rabbit won't outsell the Jetta because Americans have a condition that prevents them from buying hatchbacks of any kind it seems.

Really? I haven't noticed them doing poorly worldwide. It's been mostly U.S. operational problems- and the Phaeton was a project that costed more than it brought in. In other parts of the world (Europe, Asia), the Jetta, Golf, New Beetle and Toureg diesels are doing commendably well.

Then I suggest you venture off Edmunds. You'll find that VW's recovery just started last year and I'm talking on a worldwide scale. So far they're doing well this year also, but that wasn't the case as recently as 2004. Just because you say the cars are selling doesn't mean the profits are there either sales don't automatically = profits when a company has other problems.

M

esf · April 2006

Could we please stop this nonsense?

I have something more interesting to say: on Monday evening, I was driving by my local Autohaus Mercedes-Benz (the name of the dealer), and there was a black GL450 in front. I am impressed with most of the new Mercedes-Benzes (S, CLS, updated E and CLK, 6.2 litre AMG models), but the new GL is very underwhelming.

It not only looks like they stretched an ML and called it a day, but they also threw in Mitsubishi Montero-esque rear light clusters! Someone must tell Mercedes to make the slight stripe in the middle of the rear lights into a circle, or just make the top half white and the bottom half red (á la BMW X5).

I've never admired any Mercedes-Benz SUVs in terms of looks, (the G-Wagen is different, though) and the GL does not change my stance. Mercedes-Benz could've put some design inspiration into it- next to the fabulously executed new Escalade, the GL looks un-glamorous, and un-Mercedes.

It does have one thing going for it: it's $2,000 less than the Escalade, and that means it's about $10,000 less than the Lexus LX470. Although the LX, in its last years, is still an interior design leader and has a ton of presence on the road, I'm sure this will bring Lexus to lower the price of its next LX (even if it is bigger than the GL by a bit).

merc1 · April 2006

Could we please stop this nonsense?

Well I didn't start this ESF.

Anyway I guess we just disagree on the GL from a looks point of view. A Mercedes doesn't have nor is it supposed to have the "bling" factor like a Cadillac IMO. A Mercedes is more subtle and classier while the Caddy is brash and what not. Just how I see it. My problem with the GL is that it that they didn't much for the interior compared to say a nicely trimmed ML500. There are a few upscale touches, but not much more than your average ML500.

The Lexus LX is nothing more than a Toyota LC in better clothing IMO and it is beyond dated so I don't really think much of it. That thing needed a re-design 10 years ago.

M

rjlaero · April 2006

I'm hoping to hear stuff about the RS4 here, but we're way off topic talking about what SUV's Lexus and MB are selling and general car discussions. There's plenty of other places to do that and you folks need to argue elsewhere.

esf · April 2006

If you look at the updated LX470, it has aged incredibly well- it looks more up-to-date than the GL450 to my eyes.

Besides, you must step into the LX's fabulous interior if you think the GL's isn't good enough. Also, the Land Cruiser is quite a nice car- I can't think of a bad thing about it besides the obvious gas mileage.

The Escalade isn't too brash- it has just enough tasteful chrome accents to make it look like an urban luxury SUV.

Back on topic...

Does anyone know how long the RS4 is going to be in the U.S? I hope it's not just one year like the RS6- the RS4 has the potential to sell well with its relatively low price ($8K more than C55, $10K more than M3).

With high-volume products like the Q7 and (relatively high-selling) TT coming out this year and next year, along with high-image cars like the S6, S8, RS4 and R8 this year/next year, Audi will basically double the attractiveness of their lineup.

merc1 · April 2006

Well we obviously disagree on the LX470's its about as tired and warmed over as a SUV can get to me. Its an antique.

Yeah Audi will spruce up the attractiveness of their lineup big time, but will that equate to more sales? The S6, S8, RS4 and R8 are all niche models and the boom sales days for SUVs days are numbered if gas prices keep going up.

Agree on the Cadillac.

One thing has to be said here though, not even you can deny that Audi waiting until the end of a platforms life to bring out the best variant isn't smart at all.

M

esf · April 2006

Yeah Audi will spruce up the attractiveness of their lineup big time, but will that equate to more sales?

"With high-volume products like the Q7..."
"...along with high-image cars like the S6, S8, RS4 and R8..."

I didn't imply that the S6, S8, RS4 and R8 were high volume. I merely stated that they were high image- and would attract more image-conscious buyers to Audi's showrooms.

I said the Q7, TT, etc. were going to sell.

Well we obviously disagree on the LX470's its about as tired and warmed over as a SUV can get to me. Its an antique.

Wow, you say this, and the LX was just updated four months ago. It doesn't look the least bit tired- the design is quite handsome, unlike the homely, underwhelming design of the Mitsubishi Montero-esque GL. The LX is also standard with a lot more options than the GL450, which justifies its higher price (and it's slightly bigger).

I do agree that Lexus is overdue for a redesign there- but it doesn't look bad, or old, as it is.

merc1 · May 2006

Wow, you say this, and the LX was just updated four months ago. It doesn't look the least bit tired- the design is quite handsome, unlike the homely, underwhelming design of the Mitsubishi Montero-esque GL. The LX is also standard with a lot more options than the GL450, which justifies its higher price (and it's slightly bigger).

Then we disagree. Splattering a new shade of makeup on a pig does not an "update" make. The LX is as tired a SUV as anything on the market. I wouldn't care if the LX drove itself the design has expired years ago.

If you read my reply closely I asked if you thought Audi's upcoming lineup would lead to more sales? I didn't say that you implied anything.

M

esf · May 2006

You really made it sound like I implied- it seemed like you were telling me that the S6, S8, RS4 and R8 weren't going to sell in high volumes. That I already knew.

It's not that the new GL is ugly, but it's just lukewarm- hot on the heels of the new S-Class, Mercedes-Benz could've put so much more design into it. It is possible that the S-Class tired the designers out! :P

I still think the RS4 is a relative bargain, especially compared with the likes of the old RS6, the S-Type R and the C55- it's $66,000 and gets 0-60 in 4.5 seconds! (if you really want bargain, get a Lotus)

merc1 · May 2006

Well to each his own regarding the GL.

I agree about the RS4, its an exciting car that has this segment for the moment. The new M3 is at least a year off ditto for the C63 AMG.

M

esf · May 2006

Will there really be a C63? I was surprised that Mercedes-Benz went the S4 way and put out the C55, but I'd be amazed at their engineers shoehorning that beautiful engine into their smallest-U.S. spec model.

Mercedes never stops... the next C AMG model ('09) will be the C75 at this rate! Stop them before the car blows up!!!

:P

I'd like to see Audi put the Lamborghini Gallardo's V10, which is smaller than the C55's V8, in the next RS4... how much of a splash that would make!

merc1 · May 2006

Will there really be a C63? I was surprised that Mercedes-Benz went the S4 way and put out the C55, but I'd be amazed at their engineers shoehorning that beautiful engine into their smallest-U.S. spec model.

Of course there will be a C63 and a SLK63. The new 6.2L V8 is the AMG V8 of record from now on just like the 5.5L V8 was. There will be a turbocharged version for the SL/CL/S63 models, rumored to be a 571hp firebreather!

Yeah the V10 is coming in fashion big time now with both BMW and Audi using them in their mid-level cars like the M5 and S6. A V10 in the next generation RS4 might not be out of the question, if they can get it to fit.

M

esf · May 2006

Yes in the next RS4 it actually could be possible- they could do the same thing they did with the V8.

Or they could just make the V10 smaller- 5.0ish - and bring out about 500hp. After all, there was a 45 horsepower increase from the last RS4- it's only natural that Audi adds 80 to this one!

Do you know what I despise about magazines' tests of the new S6? They always talk about how much less powerful it is than the M5- and they don't even let the reader know about the RS6! However, the magazines do talk about how sweet sounding the engine is, the gorgeous interior, and the fabulous styling details (LEDs on the bumpers, cool wheels, etc).

Imagine the horsepower war of '08: BMW M5 (507hp) vs. Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG (513hp) vs. Audi RS6 (550hp). It makes no difference that the Audi has more power, or the Mercedes has a much bigger V8 than the others' V10, or that the BMW is only currently available with SMG- they all balance out in the end, and are equally good.

merc1 · May 2006

Do you know what I despise about magazines' tests of the new S6? They always talk about how much less powerful it is than the M5- and they don't even let the reader know about the RS6!

Well that is because there has nothing official about an RS6, only speculation and rumor.

M

dhamilton · May 2006

I haven't heard anything official myself. It would be great if Audi made it but I wonder if their dollars aren't better spent on the R8, Le mans or whatever they are calling that super car of theirs. At any rate, I sure will be jealous of whoever is driving one of the new RS4's They seem to be bad a**

rjlaero · May 2006

But concerning the M5's SMG, I've read that in order to get those low 0-60's numbers, you have to put your car in "launch mode". It isn't too convienent for every day driving when you just want to stomp on the gas at a red light and be gone. I guess a 6 speed M5 will solve that problem.

I hope Audi makes a DSG RS4 down the road.

merc1 · May 2006

True which is one of the knocks against the way the M5 is currently set up, too complicated for some to the point that it ruins the fun.

I'm just waiting for Audi to put that brilliant DSG box in anything but 4 bangers and the TT! A DSG S or RS car of any type would be awesome.

M

esf · May 2006

Yes that would be remarkable- and would probably propel the RS4 to 60 in under 4.5 seconds.

What a car you could get for $66,000... if the RS4 came with DSG, it would be jack-of-all-trades!

1. Make your morning romp to work, play cat-and-mouse with a few BMWs

2. Impress the boss with its gorgeous, high-tech interior

3. Drag with that Firebird that always gives you the eye

4. Tomorrow, take a road trip... without the kids

5. Start your day over again

Off topic:

There's an '00 SL500 in silver in a parking lot across the street... it still is mighty pretty, especially with the sun shining on it. This one has its top down, and it actually may be an AMG because it has the bodykit and wheels.

My wife has just fallen in love with the E350 4Matic, merc. My son recommends dark green, with the AMG package- but we're not getting a new car until January, when it will be revised.

merc1 · May 2006

My wife has just fallen in love with the E350 4Matic, merc. My son recommends dark green, with the AMG package- but we're not getting a new car until January, when it will be revised.

M

esf · May 2006

I know you posted this awhile ago, but still...

It irritates me that Audi is so slow with RS introductions. If they had brought out the RS4 a year earlier, it would've been at the sweet spot- a guarantee to the crown for two, or even three years. The next RS6 is also overdue to come out- does it really take that long for Audi to turbo charge the S6/S8's V10 and slap on a bodykit/sporty interior? If Mercedes-Benz can come out with a new AMG model every five seconds, Audi should be the same way- but not for all of its models. Mercedes-Benz wrings out the exclusivity of AMG because of its availability on every model in their lineup.

dhamilton · May 2006

because Audi is a fairly small company compared to Mercedes? Meaning much more money for assembly line etc?

merc1 · May 2006

I'm not sure why it takes them nearly until the end of a model's production run to bring out the RS version but it is what it is. Even the S versions are a bit slow to come to market. That might be their way of keeping them special or exclusive?? There are some that think Audi wastes time and resources with both an S and RS version of the same car.

While MB does offer an AMG model for nearly everything in their lineup (except the new GL) they're now getting a truly exclusive engine in the form of the new 6.2L V8. A showpiece of an engine for sho.

M

dhamilton · May 2006

for those that think it's a waste of time, I think Audi needs these "halo" cars to keep the public informed of how dominating Audi is on the track. Granted I wish weight distribution was better but I think this is going to be addressed with the next body style A4/S4.
I do think it creates some air of mystery not coming very often. The AMG line is a little over saturated IMO [Don't mean to stir up the Merc volcano :P ]

esf · May 2006

Yes the new AMG "63" cars are definitely worth boasting about- imagine what AMG could do with a supercharger! In fact, I was reading the latest Autoweek, and they had an article dedicated to the new engine.

It was mainly a test of the CLK63 AMG, but it had a picture of the most recent AMG cars together, and had a short test of the new S65. Basically, they said it was the best engine to come from Mercedes-Benz in a long time.

However, merc... remember our original argument, where I stated that the new CLK AMG would be overpriced next to the RS4? And it would be over $90,000? Here is a direct quote from the article: "The CLK [63 AMG] Cabrio arrives in July (expect a substantial price increase over the existing model's $83,275)..." (18). I hate to say I told you so!

:P

esf · May 2006

Yes I completely agree with you- it adds to the exclusivity tremendously.

It would kill me if Audi offered an "RS" version of every model, but "S" versions are acceptable- they're for people who want to cruise, like myself, but still push their cars. The S4 Cabriolet is truly a pleasure, and I get so many looks on the road. Over a year with the Sprint Blue color, and it's still the coolest color I've seen on the street in a long time. Pictures don't do justice- you'd have to see my car in person!

However, I believe it is necessary to not wait three years to release high-performance models. I still don't want every car to have an "RS" version and for them all to come out at the exact same time (hint: AMG), but they should at least come out a year before they are currently scheduled to. Also, I don't believe a Q7 RS is necessary or appropriate for Audi at the moment- no one's going to buy the ML 63 or Cayenne Turbo S anyway! A Q7 S with the RS4's V8 would be more than enough, or possibly they could stuff in the S8's V10 with identical power to the sedan. (Audi has noted that they can easily fit the Lamborghini V10 in the Q7)

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG  '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet  '04 Lexus RX330

Coming soon... a replacement for the RX330 (January 2007 most likely).

merc1 · May 2006

Yeah I got that issue of Autoweek today as a matter of fact.

Lets see how much the price goes up first and secondly the CLK63 is a Cabriolet the RS4 is a sedan they aren't exactly direct competitors and the CLK63 is getting a new engine and according to AMG's website the same suspension (ABC) from the SL55 and other similar high-end Mercs.

Also part of your original argument was that Mercedes tried to hard and that was nonsense as all the coverage of the newest AMG Benzes proves.

Supercharging is out for the new V8, but it will be turbocharged to the tune of 570hp and 700hp according to CAR magazine.

Guy you're dreaming if you think no one is going to buy the Cayenne Turbo S or ML63 AMG.

I agree to a point that AMG has a lot of models, but the only one I don't really see the point of is the R63. Mercedes just happens to have more models than Audi does so why should they be held back to only making performance versions of the ones that have direct competition from Audi or BMW? They shouldn't.

M

dhamilton · May 2006

defiantly put out as many AMG models as they want. Their rights aren't in dispute. My opinion is that it dilutes the badge to a degree. To me, the M, and S, and more so the RS are more exclusive because they are seen less than AMG models. At least that's the case here in Houston IMO.

merc1 · May 2006

Well that might just be the price of success...and with their cars getting more and more serious now with AMG specific engines and some upcoming "track sport" versions of certain models the AMG brand will only get stronger. Audi's RS/S may have a great image to those who know about them, but they need to get an imagine that most car folks can readily identify before worry about exclusivity. They've only had one RS model until now and the S models are pretty tame next to most AMG and Motorsport models.

Audis aren't exclusive by choice, low sales make them exclusive. I don't think it would ruin the S/RS image if they came out with more models. They have a RS4, a RS6 is rumored and some even say a RS8 is coming. They may even do a "S" version of the Q7 if not an RS version.

It wouldn't hurt Audi if they came out with the RS model before the next to last model year for the car its based on either.

Just going by what you see doesn't always jive with the sales numbers because BMW is currently selling a boatload of M5s. Their Motorsport division build a good deal of cars per year also not sure if its more than AMG. AMG models also tend to cost a great deal more than any M/S/RS model once you get past the 100K level. BMW and Audi have nothing in that exclusive space.

M

esf · May 2006

1. RS has been out since 1992- the original model was the RS2 Avant, with about 350hp. There has been only one RS model in America.

2. Also in America- low sales. If you check into any place else in the world, I guarantee you that you would see more A4s, A6s and A8s than competing Mercedes-Benz or BMW models- especially in Germany.

3. The new Audi R8 will be over $100,000 according to Audi- and it will kick any AMG 63 Mercedes! However, there is no Mercedes-Benz that is the R8's direct competition. The estimated $115,000 R8 V10 will compete with the $176,000 911 Turbo- which weighs more and costs much more. Seems as if Audi is stabbing its parent in the back! It should get Audi a great amount of attention from America especially. The base 4.2 V8 version, good for at least 430hp, will come to dealers in mid-2007.

4. There is absolutely no way in hell that M produces more than AMG- they have about ten less models. Right now, M has four models- M Roadster/Coupe, M3, M5, M6. AMG has an AMG C, CL, CLK, CLS, E, G, GL in the works, M, R, S, SL, SLK. 12 models. M can't touch that- but, like dhamilton said, AMG is diluting itself, no matter how amazing the engines are (which they are).

Currently, there is one "S" model, one "RS" model, and an upcoming "R" model in America- three high-performance models. The RS6 is coming soon, along with the S6 and S8, but the "S" models aren't very much competitors to the Ms and AMGs, as you said. That spot is reserved for RS and R.

esf · May 2006

One more thing...

I was implying that the CLK63 AMG will be more expensive than the RS4 Cabriolet- its only real competition. They both have supremely powerful V8s, four seats, gorgeous interiors (although one has questionable quality) and tons of curb appeal. If the looks I get in my "lowly" S4 Cabriolet are something to go by, the RS4 would get at least as many looks as the Mercedes- again, it's also rare, while V8 CLKs (including CLK 500s) are almost commonplace. (I'm not saying the A4 Cabriolet isn't popular- it is)

Estimating from the RS4 sedan's $66,000 asking price, the RS4 Cabriolet will be... $72,000 (in euros). Therefore, it will be $10,000 less than the current CLK55 AMG- a true bargain. Also, my guestimate is justified. The S4 sedan starts at $48,000, and the S4 Cabriolet starts at $54,000, a $6,000 difference.

Just to let you know!

dhamilton · May 2006

dhamilton · May 2006

What you said makes a lot of sense, However the main point in my mind is, when I see an AMG badge I think cool. When I see an RS badge I pull over to look it over. I've only seen one RS ever and it was a CPO'd RS6. The S,RS make my neck snap. [Some of that is the Audi fan in me.] But mostly it's because it's rare.
The very fact that Mercedes is vey succesful also means that they lose some mystery. BTW, can any AMG be had with a stick?

esf · May 2006

I'm sure your question was rhetorical- but no, no AMG car can currently be ordered with a manual. I'm not sure if the new SL65 will have one, but I do know that the new AMG 63 models all have 7-speed automatics (re-developed by AMG), and the rest have 5-Speeds... shame.

Also, all Audi S and RS models have standard manual transmissions. Although the RS6 had a 5-Speed auto, the RS6 is obviously out of production- and the next one will most likely have a 7-Speed auto. Maybe, if we're lucky, Audi will have developed the 7-Speed DSG rumored for their higher-end cars, and it'll be in the new RS6!

Just a side note: I went to a gas station about twenty minutes ago. When I pulled up with my son in the S4, all eyes went to my car

. There was a black CLK 500 (AMG package) coupe in there... not one look. It is unfair that my car had such an amazing color, and the Mercedes was in Funeral Black (at least that's what I call it). I must say, though, that all AMGs look great in black- especially the mouth watering (and eye-wateringly pricey) SL AMG!

dhamilton · May 2006

dhamilton · May 2006

I did see an SLR Mclaren today in river oaks [fancy old money suburb in Houston.] This did make my head snap. This is the second time I've seen this one. I've heard it belongs to the wife of Astros pitcher Roger Clemons. Again...neck snapping

merc1 · May 2006

1. RS has been out since 1992- the original model was the RS2 Avant, with about 350hp. There has been only one
RS model in America.

Stated this in a previous post about there only being one RS model in America so far, whats the point of repeating it?

Also in America- low sales. If you check into any place else in the world, I guarantee you that you would see more A4s, A6s and A8s than competing Mercedes-Benz or BMW models- especially in Germany.

Again, irrelevant, we live in America...you know the place where Audi doesn't sell half as many cars as BMW or Mercedes. Secondly like I said earlier what you "see" doesn't mean squat, you have to check the sales numbers and uh...they say that Audi does not outsell BMW and Mercedes overall. The A8 in particular doesn't outsell e the S-Class in any market regardless of what you think you "see". Look up the numbers and quit dealing in fantasy.

The new Audi R8 will be over $100,000 according to Audi- and it will kick any AMG 63 Mercedes! However, there is no Mercedes-Benz that is the R8's direct competition. The estimated $115,000 R8 V10 will compete with the $176,000 911 Turbo- which weighs more and costs much more. Seems as if Audi is stabbing its parent in the back! It should get Audi a great amount of attention from America especially. The base 4.2 V8 version, good for at least 430hp, will come to dealers in mid-2007.

Isn't it wonderful to be able to base so much on guesswork. Wait until the car gets here and then talk. Until you know the specs for the R8 you don't know much if anything about what it will do or compete with. Porsche is not Audi's parent either.

There is absolutely no way in hell that M produces more than AMG- they have about ten less models. Right now, M has four models- M Roadster/Coupe, M3, M5, M6. AMG has an AMG C, CL, CLK, CLS, E, G, GL in the works, M, R, S, SL, SLK. 12 models. M can't touch that- but, like dhamilton said, AMG is diluting itself, no matter how amazing the engines are (which they are).

Did you actually read what I said? I said that M produces a lot of vehicles also. I did not say they produce more than AMG. Pay attention. My point was that worldwide they have nearly the same market penetration that AMG has. BMW sells a lot of M3s, many more than Mercedes does C55s or CLK55s. BMW's M models are all under or right at 100K and Mercedes has at least a 1/2 dozen that are at 100K or far more than 100K. You'd do better by looking up their worldwide numbers first, I bet they're a lot closer than you think. I bet that for S/CL/SL AMG model sold there are far more M3s sold thus likely balancing out their numbers and putting them a lot closer than you think since AMG is so diluted to you.

M

merc1 · May 2006

I was implying that the CLK63 AMG will be more expensive than the RS4 Cabriolet- its only real competition. They both have supremely powerful V8s, four seats, gorgeous interiors (although one has questionable quality) and tons of curb appeal. If the looks I get in my "lowly" S4 Cabriolet are something to go by, the RS4 would get at least as many looks as the Mercedes- again, it's also rare, while V8 CLKs (including CLK 500s) are almost commonplace. (I'm not saying the A4 Cabriolet isn't popular- it is)

There is no RS4 Cabrio coming here so guesses are just that as to how much it would cost, its matterless. The CLK63's V8 stomps the RS4's V8 anyway so you pay more you get more in that sense.

Now your statement about the CLK500 is just plain silly because you're trying to blame Mercedes for being able to own a large piece of lucrative market that isn't Mercedes' fault they have a lock on the 4-seat Cabrio market while Audi struggles to move even 1000 Cabrios a month. What would you like Mercedes to do, stop the sales increase the CLK is currently having?

There is nothing lowly about the S4 Cabriolet, awesome vehicle.

Estimating from the RS4 sedan's $66,000 asking price, the RS4 Cabriolet will be... $72,000 (in euros). Therefore, it will be $10,000 less than the current CLK55 AMG- a true bargain. Also, my guestimate is justified. The S4 sedan starts at $48,000, and the S4 Cabriolet starts at $54,000, a $6,000 difference.

Estimate, guesstimate...all the same...doesn't matter nothing is justified when the RS4 isn't coming here. You don't know what it would cost here.

M

merc1 · May 2006

I see what you're saying but I think this about AMG being diluted is very easy to say while Audi doesn't move the nearly the volume. Lets see what happens if Audi every gets to the same level with their S/RS cars as AMG and Motorsport when it comes to popularity.

Neither of you guys seems to realize that I'm a huge Audi fan and understand fully the interest in seeing an Audi RS model.

No AMG models can be had with a stickshift.

There is no market or point of a stick shift in a AMG S/CL/SL. People that buy those cars don't want to row their own gears. The only AMG cars that really should get a stick are the SLK55, CLK63 (maybe) and C55 (definitely), not a S-Class or SL. Now a DSG style gearbox would be nice in a SL or CLS or E I guess, but that is some time off. The only Audi S/RS cars that have one are the A4 based models not the S6, RS6 or S8 so it isn't as if Audi some type of manual tranny believer either like some would have you believe or try to imply with what Audi will do.

M

esf · May 2006

Stated this in a previous post about there only being one RS model in America so far, whats the point of repeating it?

Ummm... okay, think what you want. You never mentioned that there was one RS model in America- you just stated that there has been one RS model. Period.

Motorsport, by the way, does not produce a lot of cars as you stated- for some reason, I haven't seen an M3 in awhile. Not to say I see AMGs every day- but I definitely am more impressed when I see an RS or S Audi then seeing an AMG Mercedes-Benz.

Completely off topic: it's a bit sad how Lexus is America's most popular luxury manufacturer. There are just too many Lexuses!!! My wife and I were at a stop light in the RX, and there was an ES in front of us, an RX300 beside us, and an LS430 behind us. At that very light, an LX470 drove by. Although I still love the LX for some reason, and never get tired of seeing them, it would be nice if the RX and ES weren't quite so commonplace- although they deserve to be.

Another off-topic: merc, read my post in the E-Class room. I read the Insideline article, and was so impressed that I was almost prompted to put down a deposit on the E350 4Matic with the Sport Package and AirMatic suspension.

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG  '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet  '04 Lexus RX 330

esf · May 2006

I'll bet you some people in the AMG CLs, SLs and S-Classes do want to row their own gears- in the ultimate luxury. A small minority of them, at least.

By the way, I didn't just do "guesswork" for the specs on the new Audi R8. Plenty of the specs have been released- not guessed -in the latest magazines. I know the R8 will have an aluminum spaceframe, quattro AWD, and an optional V10; I know what it will look like, and I know it will have a relatively luxurious interior- Audi never lets us down in that respect.

'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG  '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet  '04 Lexus RX 330

Audi RS4

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