Ford Mustang (2005) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

" The Mustang is an American icon whether you like it or not."

So is the GTO. The original Muscle Car. All of them were V8 only. No 4 or 6's.

"Drive one, you'll like i!."

I did drive one, pretty nice car, but there is more to a car then just looks. IMHO the GTO road nicer, more luxury like, more comfortable seats, usuable back seat for family and it's interior was nicer then Stang. Basically it's a 4 passenger Corvette for $10k - $15k less.

rorr · August 2005

"The GTO just looks too much like a rebadged Cavalier or Grand Am."

"The Mustang looks like a copy of 1968 Mustang, not too original."

Well, consider this: I was at a car show this weekend (sponsored by the Mustang Club of Austin) which had many, many '65 thru '70 model Mustangs. They still look good. Heck, there were even a couple of 1st gen Camaros in attendence. They still look good.

Been to many car shows featuring Cavaliers or GrandAms?

The point being - having style which evokes a classic is generally regarded as being a good thing. Having style which evokes a 10 year old entry-level car is not.

If the standard reply to "the GTO looks like a GrandAm" is going to be "oh yeah? The Mustang looks like a '68 fastback", well then I guess all I can say is "yep, sure does. Ain't it great?"

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

"Been to many car shows featuring Cavaliers or GrandAms? "

What does that have to do with Mustang vs Gto? I have been to many shows featuring the 2004 and 2005 GTO. Sorry, but it commands a lot more attention then you think. I have had just as many people coming up to me at the shows as the 2005 Stang owners..

"The point being - having style which evokes a classic is generally regarded as being a good thing"

Sorry the old Mustangs are not classics and either are the old GTO's. They are antique/collector cars. A Classic is a Generally high-priced when new and was built in limited quantities car made in 1948 or prior !!

The Mustang was a high production car for the masses, thus it will never be termed a Classic by the Classic Car Club of America. Most likely the GTO never will be either.

Time will tell with the Mustang retro design. Look at what happened to Fords Retro Tbird. Hot seller with big dealer markups, "Got to Have" then by the 3rd year they couldn't give them away, thus $10k off MSRP and they finally cancelled it.

rorr · August 2005

Okay, now you're going to parse words.

The point being that the old Mustang 'look' (generally regarded as a 'classic look' by most non-GM owners) is generally regarded as a 'good' thing. Or at least a few hundred thousand people in the first year seem to think so.

On the other hand, a 'look' which generally brings to mind a mid-90's GM sedan is generally regarded less favorably. You can spin this all you want, but (and here I quote a GM owner of past Pontiac musclecars and current owner of a C5 Corvette), "Ford absolutely killed Chevy with the new Mustang. It makes me sick that GM just rolled over on 'em with the Camaro."

Well, you could argue that the GTO is not the Camaro. In most respects it's a much better car. BUT, GM cannot attract large numbers of young first time buyers looking for a performance automobile at a reasonable price with a GTO. The Camaro had that ability. To replace the Camaro in their lineup, and to fill this requirement, they have the Cobalt (featured prominantly as the 'little brother' to the Corvette in Chevy marketing). Yep, that's right. Chevy replaced the Camaro with the Cobalt. And it is precisely BECAUSE GM 'rolled over' to Ford that we are left comparing the Mustang to the GTO, rather than the Mustang to the Camaro.

Tbird comparison - are you seriously putting forth the opinion that the new Mustang is just a flash in the pan, destined for market withdrawal in just a few years? Interesting.

tayl0rd · August 2005

And to further your remarks, the Mustang has been a perennial best seller from day one. It would be foolish to think that the Mustang, of all cars, is a "flash in the pan." :confuse:

And on top of that, in every review that you read about the Mustang, the reviewer basically sums it up with everything that was "wrong" with the Mustang has been made "right" with this generation.

In my opinion, if GM had made a retro Camaro/Firebird from the same period, it would've been extremely hard for folks to decide whether to buy a Mustang or one of the GM twins.

gxpgtodanman also comments that the Mustang's design isn't original (or something to that effect). How is the GTO's design original? It looks just like its siblings. A Mustang will never be mistaken for anything other than a Mustang. That can't be said of the GTO.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

The Fbody was cancelled because it wasn't selling well. Sales kept declining year after year. Where as Mustang sales stayed even or increased. So I can't totally blame GM for killing Fbody.

The Cobalt is NOT replacing the Camaro, it's replacing the old Cavalier. The Cobalt SS outperforms the V6 Mustang. Runs mid to high 14's. The facts are that the young first time buyers are going into the Front wheel drive compact sports scene, which the Cobalt SS should do very well in. They aren't buying F body or Mustangs anymore or I should say as well as they used too. The avg age on Mustang buyers is higher then it was 10+yrs ago. All of the V8 Stangs I have seen are older people. Same with GTO's, except me.

My mistake on Mustang to Tbird comparison. I think at some point Stang sales will cool off. Probably still be good for 100k+ a year though.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

The Camaro only had the ability to attract younger first time buyers because of the entry level V6 models which accounted for nearly 66% of sales just like the Mustang.

The V6 Mustang just like V6 Fbody these younger 1st buyers are buying is NOT a performance vehicle. It's all show and no go. Hyundai Tiburons, Civics, RSX;s cobalts are just as fast if not faster then V6 stang. And their engines are more refined then the truck Explorer/Ranger V6 found in Stang.

That said the avg young 1st time buyer can NOT afford a V8 Mustang that starts for $25k and approaches $30k. Let alone a GTO. The insurance is horrendously high on Mustang V8 if you are young. Just like Fbody. Where as the Cobalt etc is much cheaper.

For me in my early 30's, the 400hp GTO was almost $250 cheaper per year then V8 Mustang to insure. Same coverages, etc.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

Most of the people that make fun of the GTO for looking like a Cavalier or Grand Am are usually young people. Most of it is only in cyberspace, never usually to my face. Except this one time I had been told at a car show it was a cavalier and it was some punk kid, early 20's. Yep it's my 400hp Cavalier, LOL! When I asked what he drove, he didn't answer, hmm.... I have respect for anyone's car, New mustang is nice, I just happen to like GTO better.

rorr · August 2005

"The Fbody was cancelled because it wasn't selling well."

In other words, abandon that market rather than fix what's wrong with the product. And don't say that the market was going away since, as you pointed out, Mustang sales kept even or increased.

"The Cobalt is NOT replacing the Camaro, it's replacing the old Cavalier."

With the V6 Camaro, GM had only 1 competitor in the inexpensive, RWD performance coupe market (Mustang). And an essentially captive audience (domestic buyers) to sell to.

Now, with the Cobalt SS, GM has a minimum of 1/2 dozen very strong competitors in the FWD sporty coupe market, some offering better performance, and the target audience is predominately import buyers.

And this makes sense? So the Cobalt SS outperforms the V6 Mustang. At what point will GM realize that 1/4 mile times do NOT define how a car will do on the market. You say the Cobalt doesn't replace the Camaro. Actually, I agree with you. But if that's the case, then NOTHING replaced the Camaro and, as I've pointed out, that simply means that GM abandoned that market COMPLETELY to Ford. Sad.

"The avg age on Mustang buyers is higher then it was 10+yrs ago."

Really? Where have you found that little stat? I seem to remember a big argument in this very thread from GTO fans that were making the case that the Mustang is essentially a high school kids car suitable more for high schoolers and college students whereas the GTO was an 'adults' car.

I don't have any stats at hand either, but I'm of the opinion that the base Mustang has a better chance of making a dent in the import dominated sporty coupe market than the Cobalt (or old Mustang) because it offers distinctive styling. And style SELLS with that market.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

Cobalt is intended to be big in the small car market. Draw some of those kids away from Neons,Civics etc. Time will tell. Cobalt like the Cavalier will outsell the Mustang. 250k to 300k Cobalts estimated However they don't really compete head to head. Probably have to compare Focus to the Cobalt. Ford Cancelled the Focus SVT, not enough sales !!

GM has made a lot of mistakes, hopefully they can learn from them before they are too late.

A lot of the HS students that are getting new cars around me are getting mostly WRX/Impreza, civic si, SRT4/Neon, Evo etc. Even some Cobalt's. Knowone is really getting a Mustang. I thought I read that the avg mustang owner was older today, can't remember.

You are right, style does sell in some cases.

However IMHO there is more to a car then just styling. I look at the whole package, interior, ride, comfort etc. To me the GTO is perfect in all those categories and has it nailed except styling.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

The import dominated sporty coupe market necessarily don't have that much style either. Civic or Scion or Neon? Just as bland as my GTO if not more so. I thought Focus hatchback was downright ugly, my opinion. I think it will be hard to convince a lot of those young folks to buy a American car. They like many others percieve the American cars to be bad and foreign good. False Stereotypes, the US cars have done a lot of catch up in the past 10 yrs.

Dif topic, but Accord/Camrys are among the DULLEST/boring looking cars on the road, YAWN...yet are #1 sellers? Style isn't always everything.

vppreacher · August 2005

Gxpgtodanman,
my comparison to BMW was that both have an understated type of style and performance. BMW's is elegant, timeless; myself, most people I've talked to and EVERY single article I've read say the GTO's is too bland and lackluster. (But as you say, these are just subjective opinions.) Unlike Ford with the Mustang, it seems GM took a great performing Australian sports sedan and gave it a famous American muscle car name. Its styling seems like an afterthought, and like the Dodge Charger, only representative of the classic model in name. Since the last GTO was made in 1974, how can a 30 year gap be a great history of quality and performance? Both the Mustang and the BMW have been around for most of the last three decades, so both have become household names. Not only does the new Mustang have award-winning styling, but it seems as if Ford has eliminated the Ponys flaws and greatly accentuated its strengths.

As for the stylistic comparison to other more basic Pontiacs/GM, I'm not sure why this seems to offend some GTO owners. I have no problem knowing my 2005 GT looks remarkably like a more common, basic V6. Im willing to bet the vast majority of objective observers regardless of their age will say the GTO looks very much like a Grand Am, Cavalier, etc. As for their being another 189,999 people on the road with 2005 Mustangs, I could care less. Its a great car and its sales numbers are representative of that. I dont base my buying decision on what others are buying or not buying. I can use the aftermarket to personalize my car and the large numbers of other Stang Drivers guarantee available parts and comrades-in-rubber burning.

Rorr handled the 1968/2005 Mustang copy comment exceedingly well.much better than I could at least. I agree though the GTO should command attention. It is a great performing, rare car. Whether Mustangs are technically Classics are not is simply semantics. I and thousands of Americans would die for a Non-Classic Mustang GT, Shelby, GTO, or Charger.

Bland cars like the Civic, Accord, and Camry sell well, because they are reliable "automotive appliances." Their buyers do not expect much performance or wow factor; they just want dependable, cost effective transportation. There are many sport coupes with style, however. Scion is ALL style if you talk to young buyers as are certain new options from Pontiac and Saturn (Solstice and Sky). Most sports car buyers, however, want performance with looks. This is the connection that I find lacking in the GTO and abundant in the Mustang.

Elias,
I agree the GTO offers a great deal of performance for a great price. No one can dispute it will beat a stock Mustang GT, but the difference is not significant to me. Nor is it to every comparison I've read. But again, to be fair, give me 3-4 grand to even the price delta and a "supped" Mustang will outperform a GTO.

kevm14 · August 2005

But if that's the case, then NOTHING replaced the Camaro and, as I've pointed out, that simply means that GM abandoned that market COMPLETELY to Ford. Sad.

Gee, think this may have happened before? Hint: B-Body.

kevm14 · August 2005

You are right, style does sell in some cases.

However IMHO there is more to a car then just styling.

Ever since I was, oh I dunno, in 6th grade, I have always said I'd rather have a car that looks like a junker but goes fast (sleeper) than a car that looks "cool, yo" but goes slow (I think we know who this is).

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

This GTO is true to form in name and function. Big V8 engine in a 2 door rear drive midsized rebadged coupe. Original GTO's were an option on Tempest/Lemans. They looked just like the other pontiacs in the lineup of that era. So why do people complain this GTO looks too much like other Pontiacs? People need to go back to the 1960's early 1970's. GTO is a household name too. Anyone that knows anything about cars has heard that name. The new Mustang is nice but a new set of flaws came with the 2005 Stang, like defective gas tanks, radios, etc. I believe they have been corrected. I personally would NEVER buy a first year american car.

I don't buy mass produced cars like Camry-Accord-Mustang etc. I don't want to have what everyone else on the block does. My GXP is a company car, didn't buy it. But to each their own!!

Lets get one thing straight, the V6 Mustang does NOT have performance, it's looks only, just like the ones on the Hertz rental lot, my family Acura is faster/better performing and better built. Only the V8 model has performance. The scion with the Toyota dealer installed Supercharger is FASTER then V6 Stang !! And not much more $$, $21k. Accord coupe will blow the doors off V6 stang too. 5.9 seconds with Stick. In fact it will run with the V8 Mustang !!

"But again, to be fair, give me 3-4 grand to even the price delta and a "supped" Mustang will outperform a GTO."

But the GTO already has better interior, better seats, better build quality, usuable backseat, IRS, etc. Getting C6 Corvette drivetrain for $15k less. It would take a lot more $4k to fix that in mustang. It's not all about going fast. It's quality too. Mustang is a pony car. A cheap car to go fast. Just like F bodies were. GTO is more of a luxury performance car that still out performs the stang in every category according to MPH , C&D etc. Everyone knows the GTO won the C&D comparo where it counted except the ultimate 1 point loss because of "Got to have it" factor, LOL!

I thik we have talked this to death already, time to move on. In the End we can AGREE to DISAGREE then.

tayl0rd · August 2005

Accord coupe will blow the doors off V6 stang... In fact it will run with the V8 Mustang !!

:surprise: :surprise:

Umm... Don't think so. Not even the previous generation GT.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

"Umm... Don't think so. Not even the previous generation GT."

I think so. Accord V6 coupe is same or faster then previous generation Mustang GT V8.

1999 to 2004 Mustang V8 ran high 5's to low 6's
2003 and on Accord V6 coupe ran high 5's.

Good drivers race. :P

lassen54 · August 2005

"The new Mustang is nice but a new set of flaws came with the 2005 Stang, like defective gas tanks, radios, etc. I believe they have been corrected. I personally would NEVER buy a first year american car."

I like buying good American cars and had no problem buying a first year model in the case of the new Mustang. Don't think that the new GTO is without its own problems. Check the boardsand good luck with parts shipped from Australia.

"But the GTO already has better interior, better seats, better build quality, usuable backseat, IRS, etc. Getting C6 Corvette drivetrain for $15k less. It would take a lot more $4k to fix that in mustang. It's not all about going fast. It's quality too. Mustang is a pony car. A cheap car to go fast. Just like F bodies were. GTO is more of a luxury performance car that still out performs the stang in every category according to MPH , C&D etc. Everyone knows the GTO won the C&D comparo where it counted except the ultimate 1 point loss because of "Got to have it" factor, LOL! "

Cheap is a relative term...Im sure my used Mustang Premium GT Convertible with Interior Upgrade Package is valued at more than your used GTO in the current market...even with your Corvette drive train and supposedly better quality...and these were two cars that were similar in price when new...and the performance charactersitics were not that much different to sway me away from a Mustang GT.

Im not sure what GM was thinking when it re-badged an Australian built car with the GTO name. It's a nice car for sure, but The GTO appears to be a band aid approach to this market until GM brings back the Camaro...a car that was available in different models, has a long and respected North American history, and could compete with the Mustang across the board of this market.

vppreacher · August 2005

" I thik we have talked this to death already, time to move on. In the End we can AGREE to DISAGREE then."

True dat! In the end, we both love our respective hot rods and can easily compete with cars costing twice as much. But isn't this whole thread about a Goat vs. Pony debate? I must say though that the comparison of a 2005 Mustang GT with a V6 Accord is suspect. Not only is a similarly equipped Accord thousands more, the Mustang is nearly a second faster in 0-60. The Accord wins on finish and reliability, but the Mustang is the performance and styling king. If a stock GTO outperforms a stock Mustang GT (which it does by all of a 2-3 tenths), then a stock Mustang GT decimates the Accord. Let's stick to the same standard.....

If the GTO was such a great car, sales numbers would support that. Yet the opposite is true. I think most people (who aren't going to the track) don't consider performance numbers the end all, be all to buying a car. And the performance differences between the GTO and Mustang GT are not huge.

The Stang has much more than "WoW Factor"...C&R says it best...
"So what was the Mustang's appeal? Well, we're suckers for a great body, and the Mustang looks a lot better than the GTO. Disparage the Mustang's '60s styling if you must, but get ready to face the reality that the GTO's banality is pure '90s. Furthermore, the Mustang wins because when you take it in, as a total package, the Ford makes better sense. Pick apart the Mustang's laundry list of simple components, and it will seem to be less of a car than the GTO, but drive the Mustang, and it feels like far more than the sum of its parts. That is the draw of the Mustang: It makes the most of what it has, doesn't suffer for what it doesn't have, charges you less than you'd expect, and beckons from the showroom until you come and take it home."

jontyrees · August 2005

"Im not sure what GM was thinking when it re-badged an Australian built car with the GTO name."

believe I posted this about 100pgs back, but I'm sure they were thinking "Hey this Aussie coupe is fast, has a really cool interior, drives great, seems to be screwed together well, and we could sell it for around $30k in the US. I bet we could move around 15,000/yr. Let's import some. Hey we could call it a GTO."

I like the way mine looks other than a slightly awkward treatment of the rear quarters, (makes the wheels look small). Do I wish I had a Mustang GT instead - no way! Do I expect Mustang ownres to prefer my GTO - no, that's why they bought Mustangs. Both nice cars - I like mine better.

elias · August 2005

i hear ya vp-preacher re the mustang plus $3k or $4k of mods. maybe we'll see some real world examples with modded mustangs like that vs stock GTOs. even without the mods, i agree with you that the difference in performance is just not that significant. i'm just busting chops when i say stuff to tweek you mustang dudes about the 'superior' GTO. and in the PR department, i think chrysler has beat both ford & GM with the iaccoca/snoopdogg ads - those are just too funny. automotive CEOs GONE WILD.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

"Im sure my used Mustang Premium GT Convertible with Interior Upgrade Package is valued at more than your used GTO in the current market"

Not sure since KBB does not have resale/used data on '05 GTO or '05 GT yet posted. Too new. However for 2004 resale data....
Kelley blue Book Private Party mint condition, 12k miles similar equipped 2004 Mustang Gt vis 2004 GTO

2004 Mustang worth $19,235 sold privately
2004 GTO worth $23,385 sold privately

GTO is worth $4k more. Enough said!!

tayl0rd · August 2005

1999 to 2004 Mustang V8 ran high 5's to low 6's
2003 and on Accord V6 coupe ran high 5's.

You're comparing the automatic GT to the manual Accord. The manual GT from that era runs mid-5s 0-60. The manual Accord runs very high 5s to mid-6s 0-60. The Accord would be smoked.

Comparing auto-to-auto, the GT from that era ran high 5s to low 6s 0-60. The Accord is mid-6s to low 7s 0-60.

Apples to apples, the Accord would be thoroughly smoked. :P

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

GTO played the spoiler, because there is a high probability that it took away 15k to 18k sales the V8 Mustang would have gotten. Ha! We'll never know. Hopefully GM makes a newer Camaro.

Both cars did well in the C&D test. Mustang 211, GTO 210 in points. Very close!

From C&D "With 6.0 liters of power, it won most of the performance tests as well as the fun-to-drive category"

I would have liked if they could have made a cheaper version of the GTO, maybe cloth seats, etc. Then again that would have cost to much, the car was already in production in Aussie land. GM already spent enough $$ making sure the car met US standards.

tayl0rd · August 2005

2004 Mustang worth $19,235 sold privately
2004 GTO worth $23,385 sold privately

GTO is worth $4k more. Enough said!!

You're not serious?? :confuse:

That's not even the same Mustang! Come on, buddy. This thread is Ford Mustang (2005+) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

Comparing Stick vs stick. Very close race, drivers race, here are the numbers. What do you think?

1999 to 2004 Mustang V8 runs 5.6 seconds Manual shift
2003- Accord V6 coupe runs 5.9 seconds Manual shift

Wow .3 seconds dif, Small dif to me.

I am NOT an accord or Japanese car fan either. Esp after my 1 Acura. Just pointing out that some cars are faster then you think.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

Re-read my previous post, As I said, there is NO data on 2005 GTO vs 2005 Mustang Resale from KBB yet. Otherwise I would have posted it. Mustangs just like any other American car, GTO depreciate pretty fast.

As for 2004 resales , I stand corrected, the numbers don't lie.

Furthermore, when a lot of these 200,000+, 2005 Mustangs come up for lease and the used car market is flooded 3 yrs from now, that will really KILL/plummet the used car value on the 2005.

graphicguy · August 2005

Thought I'd drop in to see what's "cooking".

I see many of the same discussions as months ago.

Regarding resale....we all know that the '05 Mustang GTs are tough (if not impossible) beasts to find. My dealer is totally sold out of all '05 GTs as well as his allotment of '06 GTs through January '06.

I've had 3 offers on my '05 GT with 4,000 miles on the clock. All of them were MSRP offers ($28K). One was even from a Toyota dealership.

From what I can tell, around here, used '04 GTOs are in the paper for about $22.5K "asking price". '05s GTOs are about $25K "asking price". I'd assume they can be bought for less than that.....say $21K for the '04s (although, I've seen them sell for $19K) or $23K-$24K for used '05s.

That said, there's still a few new '04 GTOs lingering on the lots and a good selection (over 50) of new '05s hanging around the dealers within about a 25 mile radius of me.

From Terry (rroyce), the resident trade value guru, responding to a post I made a few weeks ago....

".. **but my 4 month old '05 Mustang GT, with 3K miles on the odo had an offer of $28K from a Toyota dealer. I paid $25,500 this past winter for it (X plan). That $28K number is the MSRP. Don't know if that's a good reference point, but it gives you an idea of how crazy that market is.** ...

That's a pretty safe reference point right now ... $28,0 from a Yota dealer doesn't surprise me, he could either run it off to the auction and get $29/$30,0 depending on the day and barometric pressure or sell off the lot and get get get, well whatever he gets ..l.o.l... the first one I bought I paid more than you at $27,5 but sold it 72 hrs later for $29,9 .... I've seen Ford, Lexus even Benz dealers step up and pay some stupid money for the pre-owned, so they must be selling ........."

Terry.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

"From what I can tell, around here, used '04 GTOs are in the paper for about $22.5K "asking price". '05s GTOs are about $25K "asking price". I'd assume they can be bought for less than that."

As I said, I will base my resale numbers of KBB or NADA etc, before someone else assuming/posting on the internet.

Let me know 3 to 5 yrs from now what your 2005 Mustang gets? I'm sure it's 50% to 66% loss in value !!

Not many people are selling their car the 1st they buy it unless they are usually have some kind of financial hardship or are Rich and don't care.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

Graphic,

If you can supposedly sell your New Mustang for a $2,500 profit right now, then why don't you? You would be crazy not to. I certainly would. Something sounds fishy there.

Best of luck.

rorr · August 2005

"GTO played the spoiler, because there is a high probability that it took away 15k to 18k sales the V8 Mustang would have gotten."

How do you figure that? The only thing that limited Ford's capacity to SELL V8 Mustangs was their ability to PRODUCE V8 Mustangs. When people are waiting months for the opportunity to get a Mustang GT, what makes you think Ford could have sold a single unit more if the GTO didn't exist?

I'll turn it around: how many '05 GTO sales are due to people who would have PREFERRED to buy a Mustang but didn't want to wait? Hmmmmmmm?

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

"Don't think that the new GTO is without its own problems. Check the boardsand good luck with parts shipped from Australia. "

Never said the GTO didn't have problems, but at least I can put gas in it. Ford finally fixed that. As for parts from Austraila? True. Some of the Mustang parts, like the Shaker, no it's not in reference to the solid rear axle, the shaker radio, were on national backorder with waiting times too!!

Cheap is a relative term...Im sure my used Mustang Premium GT Convertible with Interior Upgrade Package is valued

As we all know, Convertible are NOT as safe in a collision as a hardtop, esp if you flip over. less ridgity

many of the items you had to PAY for are std on GTO.

Locking gas cap door, built into glass radio antenna, hood struts, Not available on Mustang
Shaker stereo is OPTION, while Blaupunkt is std on GTO
Leather wrapped wheel/shifter and other interior appointments OPTION, STD on GTO
Leather interior, Optiona, STD on GTO
Anti-theft alarm and Auto tranny OPtiona, STD on GTO
No Std V8 on Mustang, unrefined truck derived V6 of Explorer/Ranger fame. Very noisy @ high rpms.
No IRS, std on GTO.

The List goes on and on. There is a reasaon why Stang start at $19k or $20k.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

"How do you figure that? The only thing that limited Ford's capacity to SELL V8 Mustangs was their ability to PRODUCE V8 Mustangs. When people are waiting months for the opportunity to get a Mustang GT, what makes you think Ford could have sold a single unit more if the GTO didn't exist"

I am pretty certain the GTO took some of the high end premium GT V8 Mustang sales away as well as G35 / 350z etc.

Sorry, I would never wait months or pay MSRP for any car. Wait until the 2nd or 3rd year when demand drops and better deals come out. Next year's Mustang will have 450hp, I would wait. That is why I waited for 2005 GTO, 400 vs 350hp. But to each their own. There is no car that "I got to have"

"I'll turn it around: how many '05 GTO sales are due to people who would have PREFERRED to buy a Mustang but didn't want to wait? Hmmmmmmm?"

Actually on the GTO boards, there a few people who dumped/sold/traded in their 2005 Mustangs on 2005 GTO's.. Go figure? Never heard of someone trading in their new GTo for a new Mustang though. Must tell you something.

rorr · August 2005

"Actually on the GTO boards, there a few people who dumped/sold/traded in their 2005 Mustangs on 2005 GTO's."

Three thoughts immediately spring to mind:

1) BS. Don't believe everything you read.
2) Perhaps they pick the car up at a relatively good price (like gguy has), re-sold the car for a profit, and used the extra profit to get a GTO. In other words, they leveraged themselves into a GTO. When a car is in as much demand as the current Mustang GT, I can see it.
3) They bought the car with drag racing as a primary motivation and then lost to a GTO at a race. Got PO'd, sold the Mustang and bought the GTO.

In other words, some folks buy cars based primarily on 1/4 mile times. A few of them occasionally show up in this thread.

"Never heard of someone trading in their new GTo for a new Mustang though."

Why would they do that? The GTO IS a very good car after all.

graphicguy · August 2005

Nothing fishy.....

Crazy not to? Why? I love the car. By the time I order another one, it's going to take until next Spring for me to get it. My dealer did the X plan deal last winter (among the worst winters in recent memory) when they had scant little business, at all....on any vehicle. I can't cut that same deal today.....it's MSRP, now.

I was tempted to sell it to the Toyota dealership but knew I couldn't replace it in the foreseeable future.

You can doubt me if you want, doesn't matter to me, but Terry over at Real World Trade in Values is the acknowledged "final source" about car values.

Speaking of trades, many people that had '04 GTOs traded them for '05 Mustang GTs.

I'd say that the only people who jumped from the Mustang GT to the GTO would be the ones who coudln't get the Mustang due to the strong demand. I was one of them. If my Mustang hadn't come in, I considered the GTO. Very glad I stuck it out and waited to get what I wanted.

I've seen GTO's, 350Zs...even one 330i traded for a Mustang GT. Now, would I trade a 330i for a Mustang? Nope! But someone wanted the Mustang bad enough to do just that.

When my RX8 was totalled, I had the opportunity to buy whatever I wanted with the insurance check. Could have bought another RX8 (not such a bad thing) or a 350Z (another good choice).

I'd never tell me dealer this, but I would have paid $28K MSRP (with IUP aluminum dash, side airbags, active anti-theft, Shaker, ICAP red leather interior) to get my Mustang. As luck would have it, I only had to pay x-plan price of $25.5K, which was icing on the cake.

rorr · August 2005

"I am pretty certain the GTO took some of the high end premium GT V8 Mustang sales away..."

Yes, I'm sure that some people looked at the two cars, and decided to buy the GTO instead. But you can't say that Ford has somehow LOST sales since they simply can't keep up with demand. If Honda were to find a way to sell an Accord V6 for $10,000 but their factory couldn't produce more than 100k units a year, would it be your position that Toyota had somehow 'took sales away' from Honda because they still sold some Camrys?

"Sorry, I would never wait months or pay MSRP for any car."

On general principals, neither would I. And when it comes to the Mustang, personally I wouldn't wait months or pay over MSRP either. My question though is - how many buyers of '05 GTO's, if they COULD have bought a Mustang GT off the lot for less than MSRP, WOULD have?

tayl0rd · August 2005

Comparing Stick vs stick. Very close race, drivers race, here are the numbers. What do you think?

1999 to 2004 Mustang V8 runs 5.6 seconds Manual shift
2003- Accord V6 coupe runs 5.9 seconds Manual shift

Wow .3 seconds dif, Small dif to me.

That's a larger difference than between the '05 GT and '05 GTO! You guys swear up and down that the .1s difference between the GTO and GT is "no contest," but you have the audacity to say that the .2s - .3s difference between the old GT and an Accord is "a drivers race????" :surprise: :confuse: :confuse: :surprise:

Come on, buddy. And the Mustang's time was 5.4s. A half second faster than the Accord! And you call that a drivers race?

kevm14 · August 2005

Can you guys stop quoting magazine 0-60s? It's driving me crazy. At the speed level these cars are at, 1/4 mile performance is a far better indicator of straight line acceleration. Magazine 1/4 miles barely cut it, but they're better than 0-60s. One of the reasons the 1/4 mile is better is because you get TWO pieces of information with it - the time it took to drive the distance and the average speed the car was going as it crossed the lights at the end. It is the trap speed that shows the GTO has a significant power to weight ratio advantage and in, say, 3rd gear acceleration from 60mph, it wouldn't be a "driver's race" at all. Can the mustang keep up with a GTO around town off a light? Sure, that's a driver's race. But that's not the car, it's the driver.

graphicguy · August 2005

I've always said it's a driver's race between these two. Other factors will go into it also...like the ability of the tranny (mainly manuals) and how positive or sloppy the shifter is going to be from one gear to the next. Launch techniques will also be a factor. You can slice and dice the numbers anyway you want but the fact of the matter is....stoplight to stoplight, there's not going to be a bumper's depth of difference between the Mustang and the GTO in a street race.

Unfortunately, the only reliable numbers we have come from sources like the trade rags. I'm not going to believe your numbers on the track and you aren't going to believe mine....regardless of any time slips posted (who's to say the time slip isn't from a different race).

rorr · August 2005

....but isn't there, perhaps, a bit more to choosing a car than just 1/4 times and odds in a stoplight race?

If you're main intent is quick ET, aren't there better bang for the buck choices than EITHER of these two vehicles? Or is it all simply what used to be called 'barstool racing'.

Besides, just how often do you think a Mustang owner would just happen to be lined up at a stoplight with a GTO? Gguy, how often has this happened to you? Is it really worth it for the 2-3 times a year this might happen?

graphicguy · August 2005

rorr....I think I've seen maybe 2-3 GTOs in southwest OH. As best I could tell, all were '04s and none of them wanted anything to do with my Mustang. So, to answer your question, it's really a moot point. They are both very fast cars. Both have similar performance.

Both will dust a good 99% of the iron on the street.

Mostly, it's the japanese iron that tries to cafe race with me. Some 350Zs have tried (unsuccessfuly), but mostly it's the Acura/Civic set. I've got a few "thumbs up" from the F-body crowd, but none of them have tried to do any stop light wars.

A couple of weeks ago, I got into a tussle with a late model Cobra, but there wasn't enough clear road to really do anything more than "gun it" for 50-100 yards.

Had another guy in a GTP attempt it but it was over before it really began.

So, to answer your question....NO....I haven't really done any streeting up against a GTO and doubt I will.

sensai · August 2005

Of course there is more to a car then straight line speed. Fortunately the GTO pretty much is better in everything than the Mustang except for trunk space. It is nice to know though that should one line up with me at a light, it will be seeing much of my "bland" syling from behind. Now admittedly it will not be a blow out in a short 0 to 60 race, but it will certaintly be more than a bumper as our resident magazine racer claims.

graphicguy · August 2005

Believe what you will.....there's about about 60,000 '05 Mustang GT owners that will disagree with your assessment (except for the comment about the GTO's tiny trunk and the styling).

As I always say, drive what you like, though.

Best thing for Pontiac to do right now with the GTO to right the wrongs is exactly what they have planned....give it a rest for '07 and then improve the styling and hopefully, the shifter and steering, then trim off about 400 lbs for a re-entry in '08.

rorr · August 2005

"then improve the styling and hopefully, the shifter and steering, then trim off about 400 lbs for a re-entry in '08."

And don't forget the slow seat motor for rear-seat access (although hopefully that's been corrected with the '06 models).

Kirstie_H · August 2005

A reporter is hoping to talk with someone who bought a new vehicle (or more than one new vehicle) recently primarily for style reasons. Did you choose your car to match your wardrobe or personal sense of style? The reporter writes, "I'm probably looking for people who are on the waiting list for a Solstice, or choose a Mazda 3 over the Honda Civic for fashion reasons, or picked an Infiniti over a Lexus because of Infiniti's superior design. Or a mom who drives a Mustang, even though it's a tight squeeze for her kids in the backseat." If this describes you, please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Tuesday, August 16, 2005 with your daytime contact info and a few words about your choice. Please put the word "style" in the subject line of your e-mail.

gottabgto · August 2005

I'm always looking - but it never happens.
I did get a Porsche a couple of weeks back and smoked him good.
I think he was shocked.

Mostly, I'm getting these yahoos in Acura's trying to challenge - not even worth the potential ticket, imo.

ocmike3 · August 2005

Here is the link to summary of the Speed Channel test: BMW 330ci, Mustang GT, Infiniti G35 & GTO - the GP GXP, G35, BMW330ci & Maxima. "GTO Smoked the competition" and GP GXP held its own.
Its the August 11 GMtv
http://gmtv.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=605697

Also www.pontiac.com/testdrive or http://speedtv.com/pontiac/

graphicguy · August 2005

gottab.....some of those Acura/Civic drivers do some down right dangerous driving trying to prove....well,.....I'm not sure what they're trying to prove. Some try to cut me off as I'm merging. Some will insist on doing a run when it's clear I have no interest (and then cut me off). When I don't run with them, they flip me off. When I actually do run and beat them, they flip me off.

Can't win.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

"My question though is - how many buyers of '05 GTO's, if they COULD have bought a Mustang GT off the lot for less than MSRP, WOULD have?"

You have a point. Then again there is a certain number of people that paid MSRP or higher to have the first 2004 GTO's too. If you remember dealers were marking them up $5k over MSRP too. At least in my area.

rorr · August 2005

"Then again there is a certain number of people that paid MSRP or higher to have the first 2004 GTO's too. If you remember dealers were marking them up $5k over MSRP too. At least in my area."

Yep, I remember. Of course, the initial buying frenzy died down pretty quickly with the '04 GTO's and I don't recall much talk about waiting months for cars to come in. This would be another way the '04 GTO differed from the '05 Mustang... :P

Ford Mustang (2005) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO

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