Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Ford Mustang (2005) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO

1…2324262829…38

Comments

  • gottabgtogottabgto Member Posts: 95
    First off -
    '1. While it may have a nice interior and better performance than the Mustang, the new GTO, unlike its muscular predecessor, has no kinship with any other GM/Pontiac car made, ever. The Mustang undeniably looks like a Mustang. To quote a favorite review, "In other words, the Mustang GT looks great, sounds like sex and goes like stink." The GTO looks like every other Pontiac. '

    Hu? :confuse: ?? It has no kinship with any other GM/Pontiac but it looks just like every other Pontiac?
    Well, that's a good trick.

    'the GTO feels more like a sedan made for comfort...spongy, less responsive, subdued. Not what most "muscle-car" buyers want.'

    Have you driven the GTO? I mean this 'less responsive' comment is about as far from the truth as you can get. When you drive a GTO, you can step on that gas and you absolutely fly. I was coming up the coast yesterday, passing other cars left and right and laughing because the GTO makes it so incredibly easy to do - uphill, downhill, straightaways - doesn't matter to the Goat.

    And lastly - I'm so sick of this weak argument - 'I say we let the sales numbers speak to which is the better car.' said it before and I'll say it again - guess that means the VW Beetle is a hotter car than the Stang, right? ;)
  • newqx56ownernewqx56owner Member Posts: 1
    You continue to misunderstand the sales argument.

    If 2 vehicles (M and G] are competing for fundamentally the same target buyers and M dramatically outsells G; one can hypothesize that the market has determined that M is a better car (ceteris paribus). And sales transactions across a few hundred thousand buyers a much better measure of success than a few guys chatting.

    And I drive a Mustang GT Convertible, so never considered GTO. My other options were M3 and S4.

    Muscle cars are so much fun al fresco.
  • vppreachervppreacher Member Posts: 72
    By kinship, I was talking about its visual and perfomance links to the past, e.g. retro styling. The new GTO doesn't look anything like the old goat. If it did and Holden/GM could produce it in quantity, it would have given the new Mustang a serious run for its money. On the contrary, the new Mustang looks like the best of the 60-70s Mustangs with a plethora of modern improvements. The new GTO looks like every other late model Pontiac.

    As for my ride opinion, again, I'm not alone. Many reviewers have echoed that assessment. The GTO has a smoother ride, but it seems to sacrifice comfort for feel. I never said anything about the GTO's acceleration or passing ability. In that regard, it beats a stock Mustang.

    Again, we are expousing our opinions, but however sick you feel the market analogy is, it is still very relevant. For the same price, a better, more attractive car will usually sell more units. Comparing the Bettle to the Stang is not an accurate comparison. It's apples to kumquats. The GTO and Mustang GT are in the same price range and performance categories. The Mustang sells more, because more people like it. Newgx56owner summed it up succintly.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    camaro was a subcompact as well... i sometimes referred to my Zs as my "GM v8 subcompact" to best baffle coworkers.
    goat suspension is not as firm as the mustang GT? well, it's plenty firm for me considering my geezin cervical spine arthritis that made it a no-brainer to trade away my final Z28.
    really we're just going round and round with the whole stang vs goat thing, but hey, it's sorta funny.
    i'd definitely like to see whatever videos - thanks in advance to anyone who posts links.
    as for the styling and people's interest in it, i think the rarity of the goat makes people much more goo-ga over it. but i haven't driven a new stang around town so what do i know about that - not much. i figure the sheer numbers of stangs makes them sort of boring to see, especially after seeing all the v6/rental models around.
    speaking of videos, there's one floating around the net of a honda insight vs a jetta TDI, set to music - pretty funny. some things never change - the hybrid people and the tdi people are always talkin trash about each other just like us GM vs ford pony-car peoples. (my other car's a tdi).
  • gottabgtogottabgto Member Posts: 95
    'it's plenty firm for me considering my geezin cervical spine arthritis that made it a no-brainer to trade away my final Z28.'
    Hallelujah brother - those GTO seats are mighty comfy!
    And all those horses don't hurt either.

    And I too have not driven a Mustang, so I would never go around posting about it's handling. But I do know this from firsthand experience - the Mustang is as common as dirt in Ca. - there are something like 5 on my block (and this is not a big neighborhood). That fact alone seals the deal for me - I have zero interest in following the pack.

    As for those who love the car - go for it, enjoy your ride - I always thought they were pretty cool cars - but don't go slamming a car's handling when you haven't even driven one.
  • blackflag3blackflag3 Member Posts: 29
    "The GTO and Mustang GT are in the same price range and performance categories. The Mustang sells more, because more people like it."

    The Mustang GT is priced considerably lower around 5 grand or so.
    There are two factors here. 1-It sells far more because it sells for less. A factor in sales price that can't be ignored. 2-Ford's retro styling was a "coup" A masterstroke that coupled with the lower price, has vaulted it way up in sales in contrast to the GTO. And topped off with formidable performance.

    However, the GTO has lived up to it's reputation...In spades. A big powerful engine in an intermediate coup. With far more bells and whistles then it's predecessors.
    Better handling than it's predecessors, more hp than it's predecessors.
    Nit picking the GTO, it's styling, made in Australia, etc. does nothing to take away
    from it's "muscle car" image because right now it has more than lived up to that
    image in the performance category surpassing the stock GTO's of the past.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    Right on girl! Well said.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    "You continue to misunderstand the sales argument."

    Your argument is that if it sells more then it is a better car. Therefore, the Camry and Maxima are better cars than the Mustang. That's your philosophy, not ours.
  • ryan2005ryan2005 Member Posts: 3
    i believe the mustang is better in styling and the engine bay.. ford has always known that some people want muscle power or else they wouldnt have had a V8 in the older t-birds (+supercharger) and the new t-birds. but pontiac on the other hand has a lot of ups. pontiac's gto was one of the first musclecars and they want people to know that. plus it has a damn 6 speed. thats pretty sweet. making it a sedanish type car was a good idea because more people will buy it if its comfy. and then other people will buy it, reminiscent of the older gto's and their power. but i do think the pony car is better. you can really see the old mustang in the new ones and i think that is a big plus. but when u think abouit theyre both amazing, i mean its american muscle and you cant beat that.
  • kevm14kevm14 Member Posts: 423
    "In other words, the Mustang GT looks great, sounds like sex and goes like stink." The GTO looks like every other Pontiac. '

    I liked this one, too. He failed to mention that the GTO also sounds like sex and goes like stink.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    "The new GTO looks like every other late model Pontiac."

    True, And the 1964-1966 GTO looked like every other Pontiac as well too !! They were rebadged Lemans. The GTO did not get it's own body style until 1967 or 1968.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Looking at the entire market.....in the past few years, GM abandoned the F-bodies saying they could no longer make a business case to sell V8 coupes. That left the Mustang, all alone in the segment. While, I'm not a big Fox platform fan, Ford still sold plenty. With both GM and to a lesser degree, Chrysler, pulling out of the market, the Mustang was there all alone.

    Enter the GTO in '04. Disappointing sales (scheduled to sell 18K, sold 14K or thereabouts). Some say it was the styling that was the cause of the "slow debut". Some way it was slapping a GTO badge on an Australian car. Some say it was the handling/weight of the GTO. Who knows? Point is, when GM entered back into the market in '04, they weren't met with good sales numbers.

    Entering '05 .....new S197 platform for the new '05 Mustang. The Mustang sold roughly 140,000 '04s. Of that 140K, about 42K of those were of the V8 variety. Ford plans to sell 150,000 '05s. A few months into the new year and it's clear Ford has a runaway success. They up production to 190,000 units. Of that, about 57,000 are V8 GTs. About 13,000 people who wanted an '05 Mustang GT, couldn't get one. Their orders were cancelled. So, it's reasonable to say, Ford could have sold 70,000 '05 Mustang GTs.

    Whether it was the looks, the performance, the handling, the steering, or a combination of all the ingredients, it's clear that Ford got the recipe right with the '05 Mustang. I don't think any of us Mustang owners would debate that the Mustang equals more than the sum of its parts. It's visual appeal stops people in their tracks, even with so many now on the roads. I can't go to the grocery store, stop for gas, park in a parking lot, without people gathering around the car to talk about it. I can't tell you how many people have said they wanted one, or tried to get one, but couldn't. Once I get in and start it up, it grabs attention of all those around me. I've honestly, never seen anything quite like it before.

    The public's buying dollar is what defines the success, or lack of success in the marketplace. As best I can tell, in two model years ('04 & '05), GM will sell roughly 30,000 GTOs. Ford has sold almost twice that amount in one model year (and could have sold more).

    Chrysler has taken note of this phenomena and brings out the Charger (not my cup of tea....but they want a piece of the pie, too). Plus, there are rumblings there will be a Dodge Challenger in the marketplace in the next few years.

    This takes nothing away from the current iteration of the GTO, but it's clear GM wants back into the segment based on the sales of the Mustang. They release some sketches of an '08? GTO that they're working on.

    I say if they "tweak" those sketches a bit. Improve the handling, steering and shifting, they'll have a "hit" on their hands. I don't think it would be unreasonable to think they could sell 50K, 60K, maybe even 70K GTOs if they follow through on their plans. Needless to say, the next step GM takes with the GTO (will they offer an '07?....will there really be an '08?) is critical if they want to mine some of the success the Mustang has enjoyed.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    "The public's buying dollar is what defines the success, or lack of success in the marketplace. "

    The 2002-2005 Monaro (GTO-LuminaSS-/Vauxhall etc sold 4x better world-wide then Holden had predicted/hoped for ! It was the #1 selling sports coupe in Austrailia too. Sounds like a success. Esp for a car that was barely advertised here. There will be NO 2007 GTO, probably in 2008.

    I like classy, understated, elegant styling. However contrary to what most say...I notice that my BLAND GTO does turn heads all the time; sometimes from the general public, but a lot is from people somehow associated to the car scene or that own other sport cars. I get questions at the gas station, shopping centers, valet parking, red lights, so on and so forth. Invariably I get the following question: Is it true that GTO is really fast? I have had at least a dozen people go out of their way to comment on how SWEET the car is.I have also seen people spin their heads 180 degrees at stop lights to see what in the world was making that sweet rumble. I have several blow their horns at stop lights to get me to roll down my window just to shout out , sweet man, that car is sweet.

    The whole point i think people are forgetting is that the GTO isn't an all out muscle car. Everyone reviews it like that, but they forget the car was directed as a euro looking, high powered and comfortable sport coupe with nice roomy seating for 4. If it was all flash and bang, but no luxury inside, like the new Mustang, I i would have dropped it and never considered it in the first place.

    The best part is that people are shocked when I tell them it has 400 horse. They think I'm lying. Funny.

    Like one of the old GTO ads used to say - if you don't get it - don't get it.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    you think the GTO has sale problems; The Toyota Supra was such a poor seller in 96-97 a large portion of supras were sent back to Japan. Don't see any GTO's going back to australia, yeah GTOs didn't move like hotcakes but what non super car - coupe does? Except Mustang-etc.

    The Z cars, 300ZX were cancelled in 1997 for LACK of sales.
    The Supra was cancelled in 1999 for LACK of sales

    Already the '04 GTO has outsold other first year GM performance cars '84 buick grand national and '94 impala SS. :P
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    I think that was part of the problem.....not enough people "get" the GTO. Again, not a slight, but I believe you have to throw out what is sold in Austrailia, or anywhere else in the world, that the iteration of the Manaro sells in. North America is THE market everyone wants to sell in. It's big and consumers here have the money to buy what they want. Can't say that in just about anywhere else in the world. America is the biggest market (and most competitive) in the car buying world.

    Looking back, the Supra, the RX7, etc had priced themselves out of the market. They were sterling sporting machines, but couldn't sustain enough sales volume to be viable in the States.

    I'm one of the "customers" that GM should be shooting to snare. They couldn't. I've already made my own reasons known. It's clear. GM has to bring out something that looks & handles as good as it goes. The Mustang has already proven that formula. This really gets back to what's ailing Pontiac and all of GM. They don't seem to have a clue as to what it is that turns potential customers into buyers.

    For all our sakes (at least those of us who are fans of V8 muscle), let's hope GM can get it "right" in '08 when/if they reintroduce another GTO.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    "This really gets back to what's ailing Pontiac and all of GM. They don't seem to have a clue as to what it is that turns potential customers into buyers"

    Ford is doing just as poorly as GM. They have lost the same or more marketshare then GM. Their NEW Ford 500 family 4 door sedan has been a sales failure as reported by CNN-money. Thats a more critical market then 2 door perf. car market. GM still has the V8 Muscle Vette which sells very well, esp for a car that starts at $45k !

    "I'm one of the "customers" that GM should be shooting to snare. They couldn't."

    Ford couldn't snare me either. Mustang is a nice car, but GTO feels moer upscale-luxury like-comfortable. And when pushed to it's limits handles just as well as Mustang.

    :D
  • jontyreesjontyrees Member Posts: 160
    Further comment on the "it sells great so it must be better" school of thought:

    - is Brittney Spears a better artist than (insert your preferred low sales singer here)? Jacob Dylan sold more copies of one album than his dad has sold in his entire career. Does that make him "better"?
    - is Wonderbread better than fresh baked bread available in every supermarket?
    - is American Idol the best show on TV?
    - is Miller Lite a better beer than Bass?

    Mass market popularity really isn't a very good measure of worth. Popularity doesn't make something bad either.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    "Mass market popularity really isn't a very good measure of worth. Popularity doesn't make something bad either."

    I agree.

    Your forgot one...
    - Is Titanic the greatest movie of all time because it's $600 million gross record has never been beaten.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    http://www.motortrend.com/future/spied/112_0505_spied01/

    This is supposedly the new 2008 GTO, it will use the same 400hp LS2 as at least the base engine. To me this is UGLY. I prefer the current shape. My opinion. Looks like bad visibility out of windows too. Time will tell Ironic that the guy that designed the current Monaro will be designing the new GTO.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "Further comment on the "it sells great so it must be better" school of thought:...."

    You guys are missing the point; not sure if it is intentional or what....

    All the comparisons between supposedly the 'same' products include the fact that they are marketed to different demographics.

    Jacob Dylan is marketed to a different music fan than his dad.

    Wonderbread is marketed to a different type of consumer than fresh baked bread from the bakery dept.

    American Idol is marketed to a different audience than would rather watch the History Channel.

    Miller Lite is marketed to a different beer drinker than Bass.

    HOWEVER -

    If Miller Lite had 50% more fans than Bud Lite, that would be a valid reason for saying that, amoung inexpensive domestic lite beers, Miller was 'better'.

    If American Idol had 50% more fans than......I dunno....The Bachelor?.....that would be a valid reason to say than amoung trash TV reality programming, American Idol was 'better'.

    THEREFORE, when the automotive segment is "RWD V8 powered domestic 4 passenger coupe", I think it IS valid to say that sales prove that more people IN THIS SEGMENT prefer the Mustang.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    There are two cars in this market segment right now....the Mustang GT and the GTO. That is the RWD V8 muscle coupe.

    I think the vast majority of people who are in the market, in this segment, know that these two are the competitors. For whatever reason, some won't go near the other to make a fair comparison. It maybe because of styling. It may be because of drivetrain. It may be because of brand loyalty.

    What is clear, is that given the choice, most are picking the Mustang GT over the GTO by over a 3-1 ratio. If you include the amount of people who wanted the Mustang GT, but couldn't get one, that ratio goes up to 4-1.

    The marketplace is always the final judge. To some of you, the GTO is great. That's a good thing. You like the car you bought. But, 3-4 times more think the Mustang is the way to go in the same segment.

    If only a few people think any movie is great, does that make it a great movie? If a lot ov people really like the same movie, it will be considered "good".
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • vppreachervppreacher Member Posts: 72
    Elias,
    We are going “round and round,” but isn’t that the point of a Stang vs. GTO thread? In the end, I’m happy we both chose a great performing pair of modern muscle.

    Gottabgto,
    My opinion on the GTO’s handling was, as I stated, my opinion. However, I am not alone. Many reviews have echoed my comments and we all have driven a GTO. As for the Mustang’s prevalence on the street, why does that matter? I choose a car based on how much I like the looks, handling, and performance. Buying a car to follow the pack or vice versa to run from the group are different sides of the same coin. Personally, I have plenty of aftermarket mods to “personalize” my pony. In the end, I’d rather look like other Mustangs than be constantly mistaken for another Pontiac.

    Blackflag3,
    The Mustang GT according to Edmund’s goes for about $3,000 less than a GTO on average. That means they are in a similar price range. Numerous reviews, magazine articles, and this forum compare/contrast the two plus the Dodge Charger, because they compete for similar market share. I agree price may be part of the sales difference, but it’s not enough to justify the difference in Mustang GT and GTO sales, especially considering the 1,000s of GTs that Ford couldn’t deliver or the people that “settled” for a V6.

    Sputterguy,
    The caveat here was two cars produced to appeal to similar markets. Comparing the Camry/Maxima to the Mustang is not what we were discussing. The real analogy is if the Camry outsells the Maxima, then the market has subjectively decided it is a better car. The same thing applies with the Mustang GT vs. the GTO.

    Gxpgtodanman,
    Again, the reason most buyers and reviewers don’t like the GTO’s styling is that not only does it have no link to the past, but it also looks like ever othery modern Pontiac. The Mustang whether V6 or GT is distinctly Mustang, past and present.

    What I can’t understand is regardless of our subjective, enthusiast opinions of our autos, how the overwhelmingly better selling of two cars isn’t the better car. Whether it’s looks, handling, performance, mojo, or some esoteric combination thereof…a car that objectively sells better is a better car.

    And I’m spent…
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    "considering the 1,000s of GTs that Ford couldn’t deliver or the people that “settled” for a V6. "

    Who in their right mind that wants a V8 Mustang, would settle for the V6 model? Not me. To each their own. In my case I would wait for demand and price to drop. I never buy a 1st yr car because of that and any possible bugs, etc.

    "how the overwhelmingly better selling of two cars isn’t the better car. Whether it’s looks, handling, performance, mojo, or some esoteric combination thereof…a car that objectively sells better is a better car. "

    Mustang starts at $19k GTO $32k, Big Dif, Graphic. Of course Stang is going to sell better.
    One example of better product NOT selling better for you...The old Beta vs VHS. Beta was the better system/better picture, but VHS outsold it and won out. Benz AMG E55, doesn't sell as well as GTO but is better. Again, goes to show you that the BETTER car/product doesn't always sell better !!

    "Again, the reason most buyers and reviewers don’t like the GTO’s styling is that not only does it have no link to the past, but it also looks like ever othery modern Pontiac. The Mustang whether V6 or GT is distinctly Mustang, past and present. "

    Being as though the last GTO was made in 1974 as a rebadged Nova, we would never know how a GTO would have looked-evolved-linked today, right? As said before, 1964-1966 GTO looked like every other Pontiac too. Didn't get it's own true body until 1968. The new Mustang is distinctly RETRO-Past not present. Not too original. After this Retro generation has run it's 3 to 5 yr course, where does Ford go next? Fox Body retro? LOL.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    "A lot of these people just like the Mustang because other people have it, have told them it's cool, etc. In other words, these are not car savvy people. They just want a popular car, and sure, the Mustang is a good looking car. I believe that this segment makes up a large percentage of the Mustang drivers."

    I have to agree on that. . Don't forget that 66% of those Stangs are BASE V6 model, nothing special. Certainly not fast or performance car. A certain % are Hertz Rental cars too. It starts at $19k so it will sell better then a car that starts at $32k

    "Conversely, I think it would be a pretty safe bet to say that the majority of people driving GTO's know a little something about cars and have selected the GTO after very careful consideration. "

    Agree as well. JD PWR survey people rated GTO as most appealing Sporty car, NOT the Mustang!GTO are ALL PERFORMANCE cars that come FULLY loaded std with a 400hp V8. Limited production. Where as only the GT V8 is a performance car.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    The Mustang has always outsold the GTO, even 1964 to 1974 when supposedly the GTO was a better looker then todays. The most GTO's ever sold was 89,000 in a year. This GTO is a better sales success then 1972 to 1974 models!

    1974 Mustang with a WIMPY 90 hp 4 cyl or optional 110 hp V6 sold 400,000 copies.
    1974 GTO with std 200 hp V8 only sold 10,000 copies.

    Another example and proof of the better car not selling more. Nova based GTO was a superior/roomier/much faster car then the Pinto underpowered Stang.I would take '74 GTO ANYDAY over a weak-small '74 Stang.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    I like your BetaMax vs VHS analogy. Whether it was marketing, or product placement, or out selling to video stores, VHS became dominant even though it wasn't the best product.
  • sputterguysputterguy Member Posts: 383
    The Mustang was cheaper than the GTO back then also.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    Guys....I've made the sales comparisons based on the numbers of Mustang GTs sold vs GTOs....not V6 Mustangs.

    There's no doubt in my mind that many people bought a Mustang based on looks alone. However, the vast majority that have bought a Mustang GT, are like all of us......enthusiasts of the breed.

    It's clear that Ford could have sold around 70,000 MUSTANG GTs, if they could have been produced. They couldn't. As it turns out, Ford sold nearly 60,000 '05 Mustang GTs....in one model year. GTOs numbers are about 1/2 that in two model years.

    So, the wild popularity of the Mustang GT has been written about ad nauseum. I doubt more than a few "settled" for a Mustang V6 if what they really wanted was a GT. And, since they continue to be so hard to come by (even with 60,000 owners), I'd say that those of us willing to wait (sometimes for many months) to get one, it was worth the wait.

    I, for one, came close to pulling the trigger on a GTO if I couldn't get a Mustang GT. I'm glad I waited. But stating that the GTO was my #2 choice, is still high praise.

    Quite frankly, I can't make the connection between video tapes or movie popularity to the Mustang vs GTO discussions. There really are no similarities to cars vs videos.

    Considering the way some dealers marked up the Mustang GT and Ford's price increases, to the point where the price was negligible to that of a GTO, with the Mustang still wildly outselling the GTO, price wasn't the issue. Again, the public has spoken with their dollars. We are the final judge.

    People are still clammoring for the Mustang GT (and to a lesser extent, the V6). GTOs are still "on the lots". If all someone wanted was a muscle coupe, all they have to do is wander to the local Pontiac store. They're there for the asking. It's clear, what's in demand is the Mustang GT....for all the previous reasons we've all dissected time and time again.

    I hope GM understands their customers better with the GTO's next iteration since I think the competition is good for both cars. But, from what I'm hearing on this thread, not many of you are enamored with the '08 sketches you've seen. Personally, I think it's a step in the right direction. If I were the product manager for the '08 GTO, I'd make my first priority to put it on a diet, put a better shifter in it, and tweak the suspension. That would really give GM a clear winner as to what, we the enthusiasts, are looking for.

    Give us a smartly styled car, that handles well, that can back all that up with performance, and you have a winner. That's exactly what the Mustang development team did. They struck a chord with those of us who had written off both GM and Ford as capable of putting a world class performance car on the market which is within striking distance of a price most can afford.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • gottabgtogottabgto Member Posts: 95
    Courtesy of a poster over on the GTO board - here is an article that fits right into this board:

    http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosconsumer/0508/31/F01-298066.htm
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    "Courtesy of a poster over on the GTO board - here is an article that fits right into this board:
    http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosconsumer/0508/31/F01-298066.htm"

    Conclusions
    Their muscle-car roots are remarkably similar, but the 2005 Ford Mustang GT and the 2005 Pontiac GTO hold great appeal for disparate reasons.If you're more into style and aesthetic appeal, the Mustang is the clear winner -- and it costs considerably less than the GTO.

    If pure performance is the name of your game, and your ego is secure enough to drive a virtually anonymous design, the GTO simply walks away from the Mustang in nearly every measurable category -- as long as you're also willing to pay a premium for the privilege of owning one.
    Overall winner: GTO
    :P :P

    I'm sure we will hear yet again how the Mustang is better because it sells better/more again which is starting to get old fast. It's an uneducated public out there, thats why.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I'm sure we will hear yet again how the Mustang is better because it sells better/more again which is starting to get old fast. It's an uneducated public out there, thats why."

    In your opinion, what makes one car 'better' than the other in any particular segment?

    My opinion - it depends on the segment. For mainstream family sedans, the 'better' car may be the one with the most room, with the most features/reliabilty/economy for the least price. For trucks it might be the most towing/hauling capacity.

    And for sports coupes, it is some combination of performance and style.

    However, for EACH segment, the manufacturers certainly understand what defines 'winners' and 'losers'. And the common yardstick regardless of the segment is sales. How else do you explain the demise of the F-body despite the fact the Mustang was soundly beaten from a pure performance standpoint for better than a decade? The F-body may have been 'better', but it's still dead.

    You guys seem to be of the opinion that many (most?) Mustang buyers are simply buying the car BECAUSE it is popular. However, I'm simply stating that it's popularity is simply an indicator (IMO) that Ford struck a 'better' balance between pure performance, handling, and style ('better' in the sense that it appeals to more people).

    The point is that there really is no "better" between these two. If a buyer were interested solely in performance and doesn't really care for audacious style, looking for more of a 'sleeper' capable of waxing unsuspecting victims in stoplight wars, then the Mustang would NOT be the right choice. For such a buyer, the GTO makes lots of sense.

    However, some of the "uneducated public" understands that life is not a constant series of stoplight races. Perhaps the "uneducated public's" ego is strong enough that we don't need to constantly prove ourself with burnouts and the ability to claim the biggest motor.

    Maybe we prefer to look better 100% of the time rather than lose a stoplight race 0.1% of the time.
  • blackflag3blackflag3 Member Posts: 29
    Conclusions
    Their muscle-car roots are remarkably similar, but the 2005 Ford Mustang GT and the 2005 Pontiac GTO hold great appeal for disparate reasons.If you're more into style and aesthetic appeal, the Mustang is the clear winner -- and it costs considerably less than the GTO.


    'If pure performance is the name of your game, and your ego is secure enough to drive a virtually anonymous design, the GTO simply walks away from the Mustang in nearly every measurable category -- as long as you're also willing to pay a premium for the privilege of owning one.
    Overall winner: GTO"


    "I'm sure we will hear yet again how the Mustang is better because it sells better/more again which is starting to get old fast. It's an uneducated public out there, thats why

    The preacher has stated his case mainly using sales as the measuring stick as to which car is better, thusly his conclusion is, the Mustang is the better car.
    There lies the rub, the word "better" Anologys have been made so I won't get into
    making another one. He likes his Mustang, we like our GTO's.
    Both cars have their attributes which have been pointed out in this debate.
    The fact is the GTO is back and I have one, am happy with it, and that's whats important to me, not how many Mustangs are sold.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    "In your opinion, what makes one car 'better' than the other in any particular segment? "

    High quality Materials and workmanship. Room, visibility, comfort, powertrain, ride quality, brakes take the cake over styling to me. Unfortunately most of the uneducated public judge the car by looks rather then whats underneath/interior/driving it, etc. It depends on the buyer on which car is better. We all have reasons for chosing GTO or Mustang.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    rorr....agreed. All 60,000 of us uneducated Mustang GT owners are wrong about what a muscle coupe should be.

    Apparently, GM knows they've got work to do on the GTO before it's ready to be successful in this segment. They're, at the very least, stopping production in '07 to ready a more competitive "Mustang fighter" (as Motor Trend put it) on the streets. According to the same MT article, Pontiac realizes they have to do something with the suspension, too since it looks like they are going to be redoing it. I still say, trimming 300 lbs from the GTO along with more expressive styling, could cure a lot of it's ills.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "High quality Materials and workmanship. Room, visibility, comfort, powertrain, ride quality, brakes take the cake over styling."

    You forgot the little "IMHO" at the end..... :)

    Haven't heard too many complaints about lack of room in the Mustang (although the GTO wins hands down on rear-seat room). Visibility out of the Mustang could be better (although it's not nearly as bad as the '71-'73 flatback models). Comfort? Haven't heard any complaints there either.

    Powertrain? Hmmmmm, I don't know that most rational people who were NOT into stoplight drag races would have any complaints about the Mustang's powertrain. Although I have heard some complaints about the shift linkage in the GTO. Of course, if you desire an automatic this is not an issue.

    Ride quality is exceptionally subjective. Some genuinely prefer the GTO, some the Mustang.

    Brakes? I haven't heard any complaints about the Mustang brakes though I have heard that the GTO brakes could be a bit 'mushy' feeling (although the actual brake numbers are very good.....for a car as heavy as the GTO)

    Look, I'm not trying to talk ANYONE out of a GTO. They are excellent cars. I do however take exception to insinuations that Mustang buyers are, for the most part, the 'uneducated public'. Just because some people may prefer a LOT more style (IMO) while sacrificing a LITTLE straight line performance (again, IMO), is no reason to label them 'uneducated'. They just have a different set of priorities.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    "The preacher has stated his case mainly using sales as the measuring stick as to which car is better, thusly his conclusion is, the Mustang is the better car.
    There lies the rub, the word "better" Anologys have been made so I won't get into
    making another one. He likes his Mustang, we like our GTO's.
    Both cars have their attributes which have been pointed out in this debate.
    The fact is the GTO is back and I have one, am happy with it, and that's whats important to me, not how many Mustangs are sold."

    I agree, as long as we are all happy with our purchases, whether it be GTO or Mustang, thats cool. Now that gas is now over $3 a gallon in NJ here, this will be interesting to see how well either car sells.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    I agree, your right. I shouldn't have labeled Mustang owners as the uneducated public. Unfortunately some people do buy a car just because it's popular/good looks. I am not trying to talk anyone out of buying a Mustang either. As you said, it's subjective and we have diff. priorties. They are both excellent choices.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    I just bought you a virtual beer. :P Drink up, before it gets warm.

    For once, I agree with absolutely everything you said in that last post. Many people do buy a car just because of it's popularity/good looks. And GM did get almost everything right with the GTO. I just wish it looked a bit more distinctive (and shed a couple hundred pounds).

    If I were to ever buy a GM car, the GTO would be it.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    Thanks. As sad as this sounds, actually one of the reasons I bought the GTO was because it was NOT a GM car. Made by Holden which is a subsidiary. Build quality and interior are better then anything else GM makes except Vette or Cadillac and they are lot MORE $$.

    I wished they would bring Holden over here. Nice cars and all RWD. My GXP is ok-nice, but does NOT have the build quallity or interior of this Monaro-GTO. Not even close.
  • jontyreesjontyrees Member Posts: 160
    Regarding the style/visual appeal of the GTO - just this morning yet another young lady leaned into the window of my black/red '04 and said "I LOVE your car!"

    Of course, she was only about 9yrs old and had just opened the door for my two boys to clamber out and go to their elementary school, but hey, I'll take any compliment. That's about the 6th little kid that has said the same thing - maybe I can sell it to one of them in about 7yrs time.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    For it's dull style the GTO does draw more attention then I thought it ever would. I was shocked, but now I get used to it. Prob. not same attention as Mustang, but it's still cool.
  • gottabgtogottabgto Member Posts: 95
    Ha! - That's great.
    My eleven year old granddaughter is also in love with my car - she even helps me wash and polish it!

    I thought I made it clear that I respect most of the Mustang drivers I read on this board, so I hope the 'uneducated public' comments were not directed my way. If they were - then all I can say is - next time I run into one of the local teenage girls driving her Mustang - I'll be sure to ask her to tell me all about her car :)
  • vppreachervppreacher Member Posts: 72
    I would take the GTO, Vette, or Mustang GT a thousand times over before I would buy or mod a car into an import tuner. The ones in Florida all seem to be driven by young macho males. Maybe it's just me, but I don't have the time nor the money (much less the irresponsibility to risk lives) to race every WRX Sti, Evo, or other supped up import I sit at a light with. They always seem to want to race. The GT, Vette, and GTO drivers just glance over at ya and nod their head appreciatively. Maybe it's a regional thing....Anybody else have a similar experience?

    BTW, How do your Mustangs and GTOs handle in wet or winter weather?

    Lastly, who is this "the preacher" guy?
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    based on about 20 new england & upstate new york winters & Z28s, i'm quite sure that mustang GTs & GTOs are miserable in snow - unless you use 4 real snow tires - in which case these cars are fine in snow unless the snow''s so deep that ground clearance is not enough. also you are much better off in snow with a standard trans than with an automatic - easier to control the torque with the manual. snow sure seems far away given the tropical disaster in the gulf coast states.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    While, in a pinch, I'd probably use the Mustang in the snow since it has trac control, but not before I put 4 snow tires on it, as suggested. I've got a 4Runner for winter duty.

    I believe one of the biggest issues with so-called "modders" is that most do such a poor....poor job if it. You see some of these cars with have 20" wheels/tires (that probably scrape the wheel wells) and you just know their civic is going to handle terribly with them. Same goes for poorly installed and realized exhaust systems. I won't even begin to address the worth of some of the picnic table spoilers I've seen.

    All that said, there's a girl, about 18-19 years old, that works at a car wash I frequent. She's got 7 year old Mustang, though used, in great shape. She's always more than happy to talk about her 4.10 rear end (on the car ;) ) and the supercharger she put in. It's a very nice ride that she rehabbed herself. I just enjoy talking to her because she's so enthusiastic about cars in general.

    My sister, while not a teen, just bought a Mustang GT 'vert. She's willing to talk about the toque curve and throttle tip-in of her new car.

    Point being, I don't think sweeping generalizations about a whole group who drives any muscle would be neccessarily correct, at least not in my experience.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    I saw a RED 2004 GTO today with Handicap license plates on it go by and it was an elderly woman in her 60's or 70's. I guess Grandma likes some muscle too.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    The only modifying I did on my 2005 GTO was to tint back windows, get vanity license plates and GTO decals, one that fits that rear fascia where GTO is cut in, and one on each side at bottom rear of side sills.

    One of the reasons I bought the GTO was that with a 400hp V8 I don't need to modify drivetrain, etc.

    Yes, it always seems to be the import tuner cars that rev their engines at me and want to race, I let them go, not worth my gas or getting a ticket, etc.

    My GTO does ok in the wet weather with stock all season BF Goodrich tires. You can spin them or go slightly sideways if you want to even with traction control on. But you have to know how to drive too.
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    We use our front wheel drive Acura with all season tires for winter, never had a problem of getting stuck. I wouldn't recommend most performance rear wheel drive cars unless you have to use them in snow.

    Not all modders do a poor job, some do and some don't. It's their $$. I do get a chuckle out of the people that take these older semi-beat up $2,000 book value cars and put $5k into it in stereos, rims etc. To each their own I guess.

    One reason I married my wife, very into cars, except she can't and won't learn to drive stick, oh well.

    There is no reason to modify my GTO engine, the car already does 0-60 in 5 seconds or better, how much faster do you want to go? Esp on the street.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    gx....don't get me wrong. There are some "tuners" that do an excellent job with their rides. They're enthusiastic and look for real world performance gain. I don't have a problem with anyone who wants to personalize their car the way the see fit, either.

    I do have to chuckle about those who drop $5K of "thumper" speakers in their $2K car (which usually rattles the body panels) that negates any type of sound improvements. I also have seen some pretty horrendous looking "mods" that puport a performance gain, but in reality do little more than make their cars look ridiculous.

    Speaking of looking ridiculous, just last night I saw a 300c with a vinyl landau roof. It also had a mesh gold grill with gold wheels. Talk about taking a pretty car and making it ugly..... :sick:

    You and I are in agreement.....a ~5 second 0-60 is just about as fast (or faster) as 99.9% of anything on the road short of a 'vette or exotic....and more than I'll ever use. Most 'vette's I've seen don't street race. I'm sure it's the same with you, but the only people trying to street race me are the "ratted out" older civics and acuras.....and those can't even remotely keep up.

    Even the few M3's around here don't usually want to test the waters (which is a little surprising to me).

    The f-body crowd usually just nod and/or wave. I get a little grief from earlier Mustang styles, too (which is surprising, also). Had a Ford Lightening owner play with me on a recent road trip to Chicago. But the road turned twisty and he backed off in short order.

    Speaking of Chicago, there's an exotic car dealer downtown. They sell Bentleys, Lambos, etc. Was driving by last Saturday and saw a Lambo being flat bedded to the dealer. As my exhaust was echoing off the buildings at the red light by the dealer, the forlorn owerner heard my car. I thought he would be snooty, but he turned and gave me a "thumbs up" as I passed him when the light turned green. I'm sure he was thinking "what a dweeb, driving a Mustang" Or maybe he was acknowleding that his car wasn't running and mine was. Beautiful cars those Lambos.

    About an hour later, I parked at my hotel and wandered over to the dealership, just to window shop. The mechanic had their garage door open and he finally got the Lambo to fire up. Mercy! What a sound those cars make......!!!!!!! :surprise:
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • gxpgtodanmangxpgtodanman Member Posts: 210
    I have seen the 300C with the 20"+ chrome wheels, big Bently/RR style grille, etc. The funny thing is that some of them aren't even the Hemi C, regular single exhaust V6 300's.

    The only people that have messed or tried to race with me or younger kids mostly in loud exhaust can Civics/Acura's, dangerously tailgating me and revving their engine loud. I try to ignore it.

    I overheard a guy come up to my GTO and say negative things about it not selling, renta-car styling etc. Yet he drove to the car show in a Marauder (Grand Marquis), talk about a car that is a rental car, whose styling dates to 1992 and didn't sell well and didn't have greatest perf. 7 seconds to 60 or worse. I was about 25 feet away, so he didn't have the nerve to say it to my face, of course. Some people.

    Those Lambos are nice.
This discussion has been closed.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles