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Ford Mustang (2005) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO

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Comments

  • pony_piratepony_pirate Member Posts: 317
    BTW, what price did the dealer give you on that GT500 you were there to discuss ordering?

    He couldn't give me a price, and neither could the other dealer I talked to about 1-2 months earlier, which makes the figures you quote totally bogus as far as I'm concerned. If the dealers don't know, how in the world do you know? Also, they both said production would be about 7,000, not 10,000. Again, I doubt your cred. Both dealers shied away from making any predictions or promises of any kind. Anything you're reading in the press is pure conjecture and/or BS.

    You miss the point that a car which hasn't even been built yet got $700,000 at auction, a car you compared to the GTO. Repeat, there's no comparison.

    As far as I'm concerned, I decided to wait this one out. There's too much hype, too much hysteria. You're exactly right about the markup. It's going to ridiculous. One dealer wanted 5%, in writing. The other wouldn't even say. I'll be more than happy just keeping my new GT and seeing how the chips fall for the GT 500. For all we know, it could be a disaster. It doesn't even have the same engine as the GT, which is a winner, an aluminum small-block. Instead, they're putting in a cast-iron engine.
  • carlots101carlots101 Member Posts: 35
    " Also, they both said production would be about 7,000, not 10,000. Again, I doubt your cred."

    My number of 10,000 GT500 seems to be right on the money. Never trust the dealers, they are among the last to find out info. The guys I dealt with for my GTO were also the last to find out any info. I was far more knowledgeable then them on their own products.

    Anyone that pays $700k for a Mustang or even that $1.2 million for that nice old Chevy muscle car is out of their mind, IMHO.

    You are better off with the GT, that is what I would get. If they made a more expensive higher horsepower version of the GTO I wouldn't buy it either. Not worth it to me.

    We have to replace our family sedan and I would love to get a Mustang GT to go along with the GTO, but my wife won't let that happen, I can dream though. We only have 1 kid.
  • pony_piratepony_pirate Member Posts: 317
    Here no evil, see no evil.

    As I said, it was a charity auction. Still, the amount reflects the desirability of the car, sight unseen, which is extremely high. In this case, perception is everything, a very concrete $700,000 everything.

    Believe what you want ... journalists, dealers ... not exactly the most honest sources. I'm going to wait and see how the situation plays out "on the ground," as they say.
  • carlots101carlots101 Member Posts: 35
    True. The auto mags-journalists have gotten it wrong many times too. They now say the GTO for 2008 is dead at Motor Trend. Time will tell. oh well.
  • pony_piratepony_pirate Member Posts: 317
    The auto-mags initially said the price would be below $40k, which piqued my interest. Now its creeping up, mid 40's, which imo is inflated.
  • pony_piratepony_pirate Member Posts: 317
    Noticed the same disparities for the Mustang. I don't recall the numbers, but Consumer Reports got a substantially slower 0-60 than the car mags or Ford.

    Also it pays to look at HP skeptically. It's rated 300 for the Mustang at very high RPMs (torque too is rated at high RPM). When you look at the graph, at driving range, the HP is much lower. Another thing is the actual power delivered to the rear wheels, which is also significantly lower. That "300" figure is basically for comparison purposes, as I see it. :shades:
  • dadecountydadecounty Member Posts: 7
    just wondering what types of prices people are paying for 2005 gtos and 2005 mustang gts with under 10,000 miles...
  • sigt1sigt1 Member Posts: 66
    i would venture to say that BOTH these cars are not selling to well realistically and that you can get good prices on BOTH;
  • jtacojtaco Member Posts: 7
    Pontiac Customer Service got back to me...Here's what they had to say about 4.6 vs 6.0 times for the GTO:

    "The 4.6 seconds
    is the 0-60 time number on the automatic transmission tested by GM at
    GM's Milford proving grounds on a closed course track. The 6.0 seconds
    information found on the website is an altitude adjusted time produced
    by a third party.
    "

    John
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    hmmm, my '99 Chrysler 300M had a V6 engine making 255HP and 255 lbs*ft torque.

    My 2002 Acura TL-S made 260HP.

    Actually, the '99 300M was rated at 253HP. ;) My sister had one. I have an '02 300M Special rated at 255HP/258TRQ (in addition to my '05 Mustang GT.)
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ... Also it pays to look at HP skeptically. It's rated 300 for the Mustang at very high RPMs (torque too is rated at high RPM). When you look at the graph, at driving range, the HP is much lower. Another thing is the actual power delivered to the rear wheels, which is also significantly lower. That "300" figure is basically for comparison purposes, as I see it. :shades:

    You do realize that all cars' HP numbers are rated at the CRANK and not the wheels? A stock GTO's dyno numbers will also be much lower. Using the "law of averages" when studying a Mustang GT dynograph will show that the Mustang GT actually makes a bit over 300HP at the crank. ;)
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Better built, hmmmmmm, pretty subjective. Better performing, subjective as well. My take is this: both are good vehicles, are screwed together pretty well and am much improved over the previous offerings in this group by each maker (front-engine, RWD, V8 power 2-dr coupe - stretching it for Poncho cause the last vehicle to fit this was f-body), and either one car beat the other on any given day. It's done to personal preference, options, liveability and ability to fit the person's particular needs.

    So as always, agree on some things, disagree on others.

    Anyways, yes I do plan on tracking the car this year when it gets warmer. I'll be checking forums occasionally to see when get togethers and events are taking place.

    That's good you'll be track-testing. There are a couple of all-Pontiac events up here, usually one in late spring - early summer, and then one in early fall, like mid-September. Didn't make it to the latter one, but a buddy of mine at work took his Goat ('66 Tri-Power 4spd). So maybe I'll see you at one of those, or any of the other events race events @ Joliet, St. Louis, etc).

    Must admit am curious at a GT500 & GTO run.
  • pony_piratepony_pirate Member Posts: 317
    I don't know about you guys, but I don't do much of my driving in the 4000-5000 RPM range, where the Mustang GT produces its 300 HP and 320 ft-lbs torque. In real-life driving situations, I'm usually only tapping 225-245 HP. Same holds for all cars, btw, where the quoted max HP is produced at only high RPM's.

    There's an analogy to stereo amplifiers. You rarely use the quoted watts. Much more important to performance is the amplifier's ability to instantly supply amperage, for which you need a big transformer and big capacitors (not cheap) -- that's why so many dinky inexpensive amps can claim high wattage, like the Shaker's "500". The automotive equivalent of amps, I guess, would be torque.
  • carlots101carlots101 Member Posts: 35
    But the one thing I like in the GTO is that the LS2 V8 makes 320 ft-lbs torque at only 1500 rpm. So barely have to hit the gas in everyday driving. Torque curve is tremendous on that engine. Lot of low end grunt. It keeps going all the way to 6000+ rpm like an OHC engine, even though it isn't.

    http://64.81.147.40//albums/album50/P4237723.jpg
  • pony_piratepony_pirate Member Posts: 317
    carlots, impressive graph, but the source appears to be the manufacturer, not exactly impartial.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Yeah, it's hard to get a 300M out of your system for some reason. My sister's was totalled. She replaced it with an '02 Lexus GS300, but sometimes she still wishes she had her 300M! :surprise:

    My Mustang GT owes some thanks to my 300M Special for it ending up in my garage. I was going to trade it for an '05 Audi A6 4.2 but was having a REALLY hard time parting with it. The option was keep the 300M and get a second, sports coupe or trade the 300M for a powerful luxury sedan. Well the 300M is plenty luxurious even in comparison to the current luxury car crop, and is amazingly sporty for its size and drivetrain layout. I just needed a little something extra. Something in the form/tune of a V8. The fact that the A6 is so much smaller inside and the GT sounds so good... ;)
  • pony_piratepony_pirate Member Posts: 317
    From cars.com:

    Driving Impressions
    Even though enthusiasts criticize the GTO for not being true enough to the original, Pontiac managed to inject quite a bit of muscle-car personality into it. With the first-year V-8, a manual-shift GTO produced ferocious responses and snarling sounds. Though it quieted down in upper gears, noise never disappeared. Adding an extra 50 hp turns this coupe into an even more emphatic, snorting beast.

    Like most muscle machines, the rear-drive GTO is more adept on straightaways than through serious curves. The ride is firmly taut, but it's not unpleasant on the highway. While it's not so bad on bumps, you might get signs of imperfect construction during those stretches. The manual gearshift is inviting to use but less positive than some. The seat bottoms are short, but support is good.

    Trouble is, you can say this, that, and the other about this car, but overall it just fails to distinguish itself from the crowd, looks like some toy Japanese slot racer, not a real American bruiser.

    The Mustang, by contrast, has wowed both reviewers and consumers.
  • carlots101carlots101 Member Posts: 35
    It seems there are plenty of naysayers, but people who actually buy a GTO love them to death! At least I do! Thats why the GTO was the top vehicle in the JD Power Appeal study's Sporty Car segment!

    http://money.cnn.com/2004/10/14/pf/autos/apeal/index.htm

    Car and Driver. Interesting that the GTO outscores (or ties) the Mustang in all categories EXCEPT "the gotta have it factor,"

    In the battle of brawn, GTO gets nod over Mustang.

    http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosconsumer/0508/31/F01-298066.htm

    It's all opinion, I prefer the GTO, you prefer the Mustang. There is no perfect car. There are things I dislike on my GTO. As for blending in with the crowd, got to disagree with you. I get many people in traffic and in store parking lots complimenting me on the car and asking about it etc.

    Ultimately I don't buy my cars based on what reviewers say, many are biased. Just to let you know there are reviewers that did pick the GTO over the Stang. Finally, I don't like high volume cars such as the Mustang, that you see to many of. My opinion.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ... Finally, I don't like high volume cars such as the Mustang, that you see to many of. ...

    What did you drive before you got your GTO?
  • carlots101carlots101 Member Posts: 35
    2000 Daytona 500 Grand prix 2 door GTP. They only sold 2,000 of these.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    But how many Grand Prixs did they sell? And how is that one distinguished from any other run-of-the-mill Grand Prix?
  • carlots101carlots101 Member Posts: 35
    Don't know the # of GP sold. I do know that only about 20% of the Grand Prix sold were 2 door models. Thats why GM cancelled the 2 door after 2002. Personally I only see 4 door GP's around me, very few 2 door ones.

    The daytona only comes only in Silver-Metallic exterior paint, unique exhaust tips, wheels, spoiler, Daytona 500 graphics on car, nascar style roof fences, heat extractors on hood and 2 tone interior. It is very easily identifiable from a normal 2 door GP. can't miss it.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Just out of curiousity: how many of your previous vehicles have been Pontiacs?

    Is it possible you bought the GTO out of brand loyalty as much as some other factors?
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Carlots,

    Have a question. I was in the market for a GTP in that timeframe ('99-'00) and the only Daytonas I saw were in blue. Was the Silver-Metallic an option? or vice-versa? I do agree it is identifiable from a regular GP, think the hood extractors and exhaust tips help somewhat.

    At that time most of the GP GTPs I saw were 2 doors, and of the 4-doors most were either the GT or GTP. I saw very, very few SE models. Pontiac lost me when they dropped the 2-door and I've never warmed to the restyled 2002 GP.
  • carlots101carlots101 Member Posts: 35
    Total of 3 Pontiacs before the GTO, but have had many other domestics and foreign cars in between those as well.

    No brand loyalty. My 2000 GTP had a lot of issues. I only bought the GTO because Pontiac didn't make it, Holden did. One of it not GM"s best quality cars and interiors, IMHO.
  • carlots101carlots101 Member Posts: 35
    The 1998 Daytona 500 Grand Prix was the one that was only made in blue. They made 1500 of those. The 2000 Daytona I had was made in Silver only.

    Too bad GM cancelled the 2 door GP in 2002 and the F body the same year. The 2003 GP was the same minus the 2 door. GP was restyled for 2004 and I don't care for it, esp the rear.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Thanks for the info.

    Like you, don't care for the restyle. Am still a fan of the 1997 - 2003 body style, particularly the coupe. Even the 4-dr was nice looking, with the coupe-like lines.
  • whatsachevywhatsachevy Member Posts: 136
    My last six vehicles have consisted of 3 Fords, 2 Chevys and a Toyota. I am not partial to anyone. I drove a manual '05 GTO and a manual '05 Mustang GT. The GTO is parked in my garage. The Mustang is still parked at the dealership. A stock '05 Mustang GT will never beat a stock '05 GTO. In fact, I have beaten an F-150 SVT Lightning in the 1/4 mile and was less than a car-length behind an '04 Cobra with intake/exhaust mods and 315's on the back. If it comes down to performance, go GTO (although I would also give the interior nod to GTO as well). As far as exterior looks, the Mustang indeed looks good. But, it is far more fun, as you slow down and let them go by, watching them try to figure out what just blew their doors off!
  • cobragtcobragt Member Posts: 95
    Yeah ok, we can tell you're new here.

    1st, lets get one thing clear...the GTO does not "blow the doors off" the GT, I think even the GTO owners will agree to that. The posted performance numbers are very close.

    Also, I think we've heard that statement about a stock GT will never beat a stock GTO one too many times. I think everyone here knows that. That is not the issue. It's performance vs dollars, and as priced, both in the majority of reviews, and even if you look at Pontiac's or Ford's site, you can't be the price of the GT for the power you get.
  • carlots101carlots101 Member Posts: 35
    Both cars are great buys for what you get. Price per hp they are about the same, $83 a hp. Don't forget the leftover 2005 GTO's are steals at $27k or less. Even the rare leftover 2004 GTO's are steals at under $23k.
  • charts2charts2 Member Posts: 618
    GM announced today Feb 21/06 that the GTO will not continue on with a new platform for 2007. Cars will be produced until June and available up until Sept. Pontiac dealers are being notified that the GTO is finished.
  • cobragtcobragt Member Posts: 95
    What?!! No comments by the beloved GTO owners? How sad.

    Here is one link to the story in case any one is interested.

    Bye Bye GTO
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Just gotta fan the flames, don't you? :blush:
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "What?!! No comments by the beloved GTO owners? How sad."

    Perhaps because it's not really news to most of them. I think it's been kicked around for the last couple of weeks in the GTO forum.

    Also, demise of the GTO may hasten GM to bring the new Camaro to market quicker rather than later. That's pure conjecture on my part.
  • pony_piratepony_pirate Member Posts: 317
    If the GTO is so good, why is it suffering a "demise"? And, please, don't give me any of that "the good die young" jive.

    (A car that ain't commercially viable is a car I stay away from.) :shades:
  • cobragtcobragt Member Posts: 95
    Little ol me...fan the flames.... no..never... :surprise:
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "If the GTO is so good, why is it suffering a "demise"?

    :confuse:

    Where did I insinuate that the GTO was a success?

    I thought it was plain from the Edmunds report that GM wasn't satisfied with the sales numbers. All I was trying to do was to say that with the GTO gone, that GM might speed up the release of a Camaro.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 13,665
    I've been a GTO critic for a while. That said, I am sorry to hear of its demise. I had actually looked into buying one a couple of times. My reasons for not buying are varied. But, the fact that I looked at them is a testament that I thought they would be a good performance car.

    I had wished that GM would build one on a new platform, give it the styling it deserved and made it a true competitor to the new Mustang.

    I'll be sad to see the GTO go away. I thought it had tons of potential. But, if there's a silver lining, it sounds like maybe/perhaps GM will build the Camaro for the '09-'10 model year. Still, it was my hope that Pontiac would carry the banner...staying true to its "performance" division moniker, with a new GTO.

    RIP GTO....we hardly knew you.
    2023 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    It's bad for the breed for them to go, but it's good that GM constantly drops its musclecars to THE wayside. It helps to humble the GM fanboys, knocks 'em down a few pegs. ;) Notice there haven't been any rebuttals from them since the official word came out? Also notice that the Mustang guys haven't been like, "Ooooh! In yo' face! It stings, don't it!? Seein' "a Mustang on every corner" stings!" Except for that little jab that cobragt did a few posts ago. :P

    Not to worry, the new Camaro will be here soon enough and they'll be bragging to their hearts' desire again. :sick: Hopefully it can hang on more than 3 model years. Ooooo!

    j/k ;)
    It's no fun beating up on the imports and sport compacts all the time. LONG LIVE AMERICAN MUSCLE!! :)
  • mparis1mparis1 Member Posts: 107
    Three years before a "camaro"....come on we 60's and 70's muscle guys will be in the home soon, driving wheel chairs with a rabbit tail. Looking forward to the DODGE CHALLANGER-HEMI, HOPEFULLY IT WILL BE OUT SOON. Pontiac/GM just tickled us with the GTO. Love mine, real fun car, old style muscle with new 2000 technology. GUESS THEY COULD NOT AFFORD TO SPEND MONEY ON A "GREAT NAME" . Who knows if GM we be around in 3 years? I also hear that "TOYOTA" is getting into NASCAR. Perhaps they will come out with a BIG V8 Camry. Then there will definitely be no GM muscle car. Look what they did to their regular car line---------destroyed it. So I will be looking for my street-hemi when my GTO LEASE is over and i get ready for the wheel-car. Really disappointed , but GM is in deep trouble. :(:(
  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    Notice there haven't been any rebuttals from them since the official word came out?

    Uh, it was known from the start that the contract to import GTOs was 3 years only. I not sure why everyone thinks this is some sort of surprise...
  • dadecountydadecounty Member Posts: 7
    "1st, lets get one thing clear...the GTO does not "blow the doors off" the GT, I think even the GTO owners will agree to that. The posted performance numbers are very close."

    Hate to break the news to you genius, but when we're talking these kinds of numbers, a 5 tenths of a second difference is definately "blowing the doors off" of your play play mustang. That's like saying Ben Johnson barely beat Carl Lewis in '88.

    Let's cut the BS. Everyone hear is mainly concerned with one thing with these two cars, the "smoke or get smoked" factor. Talk all you want about looks, Australia, whatever. Bottom line is when you Mustang owners turn out the lights and go to bed at night, in that little place in the back of your mind, no matter how hard you try to block it out, you know your manhood is forfeit because that LS2 will rip your guts out, ALL DAY. AND THAT IS NOT DEBATEABLE (please save the supercharge this and that comments).
  • vppreachervppreacher Member Posts: 72
    How can a car which is made in Australia and looks like a Cavalier on steroids be considered "old style muscle"? While the GTO has a great engine and a nice interior, there is no old style in it. The lackluster sales of the GTO can be directly attributed to its, at best, uninspired styling and high price. While the GTO withers away, the Mustang GT is still in short supply.
  • vppreachervppreacher Member Posts: 72
    Shucks! If I had known my manhood was forfeit, because I went with the Mustang GT, I would have pressed my Ford dealer for those free floormats and mudflaps.... I mean seriously! What in the world are you talking about?!

    Those 5 tenths in the quarter mile end up costing a GTO buyer 5 grand. Mustang GT buyers can't dispute a stock GTO can out-accelerate a stock GT, nor can a GTO buyer dispute Edmund's objective data that the average price for a SIMILARLY configured GTO is 5 large more than the GT. Why would I pay 5 grand more for something that looks terrible, gets worse gas mileage, has a far worse repair and reliability record when I can get something very close and use those greenbacks to out accelerate and out corner the GTO?
  • sigt1sigt1 Member Posts: 66
    new camaro looks like crap too
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Hate to break the news to YOU genius but there's always somebody faster out there.

    No, everyone here is NOT mainly concerned with one thing between these two cars. Apparently, only the GTO guys. Perhaps the Mustang guys are adult enough to realize that life DOESN'T begin and end with 0-60 and 1/4 mile timeslips. Those who DO put a lot of stock in those things will (pardon the pun) NOT be running stock for long.

    Bottom line is when YOU turn out the lights and go to bed at night, in that little place in the back of your mind, no matter how hard you try to block it out, you realize that you've transferred all of your self worth into an inanimate object. Some of us with a little more self confidence really don't care.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Maybe you're right. Maybe we Mustang GT guys shouldn't have forfeited our manhood and should've bought the GTO instead so that we, too, could brag incessantly about how nice the interior is and how comfortable the back seat is and how nicely it rides around town and how the fit-n-finish is so wonderul. :sick: Nope, we shouldn't have forfeited our manhood. We should've went with the car that is clearly much "softer" than the 'stang! :P We Mustang GT guys ought to be ASHAMED! It appears we threw our manhood right in the trash by buying the harder edged car. :confuse:
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Uh, it was known from the start that the contract to import GTOs was 3 years only. I not sure why everyone thinks this is some sort of surprise...

    Actually, it doesn't come as a surprise to us. The thing is, though, the GTO guys were in denial the whole time. I recall that some of them about soiled themselves when they heard there was going to be a 2006 model.
  • cobragtcobragt Member Posts: 95
    HA. dadecounty is funny. I think that is the best post yet.

    We GAVE our manhood to the Jessica Alba of cars, the playboy centerfold of cars...something someone is is going to remember for a long time, and something that will be around for just as long.

    But GTO owners, you threw your manhood away to a one night stand. Here today GONE tomorrow. (Or in your case, the end of this year!!!) Bye Bye GTO.
  • dadecountydadecounty Member Posts: 7
    First, thanks to YOU, Mustang owners, and the rest of our "Monkey See Monkey Do" society, there are 2005 GTO leftovers sitting on lots right now for around 28k. So your 5k argument is forfeit as well.

    "...there's always somebody faster out there."

    Funny, I thought we were talking about the GTO and Mustang, but yeah (let me see 4.6 -.5 = 3.9), if you show me a 3 second car, I have no problem admitting "I just got smoked".

    "...harder edged car."

    If "harder edged" means looks cheap and makes a sound like tin when you tap it, I agree with you. Maybe next year you guys can get really "hard edged" and all buy Nissan 350 Zs.

    As I expected, more BS. Since no Mustang owner can relate to or cares to address the "Smoke or Get Smoked" fator, my argument just gets stronger. Due to the fact I have to say "pick on a Mustang" (can't really say challenge) when it comes to these things, it really just makes the argument more lopsided and boring to me.

    As far as for the "End" of the GTO. While "killing" an automobile is not necessarily a good thing for the car manufactuer, it can be a great thing for the owner and for the street cred of the car (think '95, '96, '97 Chevy Impala- oh I forget who I'm talking too. You guys probably won't understand that either. oh well.)
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