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Ford Mustang (2005) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO
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Comments
He couldn't give me a price, and neither could the other dealer I talked to about 1-2 months earlier, which makes the figures you quote totally bogus as far as I'm concerned. If the dealers don't know, how in the world do you know? Also, they both said production would be about 7,000, not 10,000. Again, I doubt your cred. Both dealers shied away from making any predictions or promises of any kind. Anything you're reading in the press is pure conjecture and/or BS.
You miss the point that a car which hasn't even been built yet got $700,000 at auction, a car you compared to the GTO. Repeat, there's no comparison.
As far as I'm concerned, I decided to wait this one out. There's too much hype, too much hysteria. You're exactly right about the markup. It's going to ridiculous. One dealer wanted 5%, in writing. The other wouldn't even say. I'll be more than happy just keeping my new GT and seeing how the chips fall for the GT 500. For all we know, it could be a disaster. It doesn't even have the same engine as the GT, which is a winner, an aluminum small-block. Instead, they're putting in a cast-iron engine.
My number of 10,000 GT500 seems to be right on the money. Never trust the dealers, they are among the last to find out info. The guys I dealt with for my GTO were also the last to find out any info. I was far more knowledgeable then them on their own products.
Anyone that pays $700k for a Mustang or even that $1.2 million for that nice old Chevy muscle car is out of their mind, IMHO.
You are better off with the GT, that is what I would get. If they made a more expensive higher horsepower version of the GTO I wouldn't buy it either. Not worth it to me.
We have to replace our family sedan and I would love to get a Mustang GT to go along with the GTO, but my wife won't let that happen, I can dream though. We only have 1 kid.
As I said, it was a charity auction. Still, the amount reflects the desirability of the car, sight unseen, which is extremely high. In this case, perception is everything, a very concrete $700,000 everything.
Believe what you want ... journalists, dealers ... not exactly the most honest sources. I'm going to wait and see how the situation plays out "on the ground," as they say.
Also it pays to look at HP skeptically. It's rated 300 for the Mustang at very high RPMs (torque too is rated at high RPM). When you look at the graph, at driving range, the HP is much lower. Another thing is the actual power delivered to the rear wheels, which is also significantly lower. That "300" figure is basically for comparison purposes, as I see it. :shades:
"The 4.6 seconds
is the 0-60 time number on the automatic transmission tested by GM at
GM's Milford proving grounds on a closed course track. The 6.0 seconds
information found on the website is an altitude adjusted time produced
by a third party.
"
John
My 2002 Acura TL-S made 260HP.
Actually, the '99 300M was rated at 253HP. My sister had one. I have an '02 300M Special rated at 255HP/258TRQ (in addition to my '05 Mustang GT.)
You do realize that all cars' HP numbers are rated at the CRANK and not the wheels? A stock GTO's dyno numbers will also be much lower. Using the "law of averages" when studying a Mustang GT dynograph will show that the Mustang GT actually makes a bit over 300HP at the crank.
So as always, agree on some things, disagree on others.
Anyways, yes I do plan on tracking the car this year when it gets warmer. I'll be checking forums occasionally to see when get togethers and events are taking place.
That's good you'll be track-testing. There are a couple of all-Pontiac events up here, usually one in late spring - early summer, and then one in early fall, like mid-September. Didn't make it to the latter one, but a buddy of mine at work took his Goat ('66 Tri-Power 4spd). So maybe I'll see you at one of those, or any of the other events race events @ Joliet, St. Louis, etc).
Must admit am curious at a GT500 & GTO run.
There's an analogy to stereo amplifiers. You rarely use the quoted watts. Much more important to performance is the amplifier's ability to instantly supply amperage, for which you need a big transformer and big capacitors (not cheap) -- that's why so many dinky inexpensive amps can claim high wattage, like the Shaker's "500". The automotive equivalent of amps, I guess, would be torque.
http://64.81.147.40//albums/album50/P4237723.jpg
My Mustang GT owes some thanks to my 300M Special for it ending up in my garage. I was going to trade it for an '05 Audi A6 4.2 but was having a REALLY hard time parting with it. The option was keep the 300M and get a second, sports coupe or trade the 300M for a powerful luxury sedan. Well the 300M is plenty luxurious even in comparison to the current luxury car crop, and is amazingly sporty for its size and drivetrain layout. I just needed a little something extra. Something in the form/tune of a V8. The fact that the A6 is so much smaller inside and the GT sounds so good...
Driving Impressions
Even though enthusiasts criticize the GTO for not being true enough to the original, Pontiac managed to inject quite a bit of muscle-car personality into it. With the first-year V-8, a manual-shift GTO produced ferocious responses and snarling sounds. Though it quieted down in upper gears, noise never disappeared. Adding an extra 50 hp turns this coupe into an even more emphatic, snorting beast.
Like most muscle machines, the rear-drive GTO is more adept on straightaways than through serious curves. The ride is firmly taut, but it's not unpleasant on the highway. While it's not so bad on bumps, you might get signs of imperfect construction during those stretches. The manual gearshift is inviting to use but less positive than some. The seat bottoms are short, but support is good.
Trouble is, you can say this, that, and the other about this car, but overall it just fails to distinguish itself from the crowd, looks like some toy Japanese slot racer, not a real American bruiser.
The Mustang, by contrast, has wowed both reviewers and consumers.
http://money.cnn.com/2004/10/14/pf/autos/apeal/index.htm
Car and Driver. Interesting that the GTO outscores (or ties) the Mustang in all categories EXCEPT "the gotta have it factor,"
In the battle of brawn, GTO gets nod over Mustang.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosconsumer/0508/31/F01-298066.htm
It's all opinion, I prefer the GTO, you prefer the Mustang. There is no perfect car. There are things I dislike on my GTO. As for blending in with the crowd, got to disagree with you. I get many people in traffic and in store parking lots complimenting me on the car and asking about it etc.
Ultimately I don't buy my cars based on what reviewers say, many are biased. Just to let you know there are reviewers that did pick the GTO over the Stang. Finally, I don't like high volume cars such as the Mustang, that you see to many of. My opinion.
What did you drive before you got your GTO?
The daytona only comes only in Silver-Metallic exterior paint, unique exhaust tips, wheels, spoiler, Daytona 500 graphics on car, nascar style roof fences, heat extractors on hood and 2 tone interior. It is very easily identifiable from a normal 2 door GP. can't miss it.
Is it possible you bought the GTO out of brand loyalty as much as some other factors?
Have a question. I was in the market for a GTP in that timeframe ('99-'00) and the only Daytonas I saw were in blue. Was the Silver-Metallic an option? or vice-versa? I do agree it is identifiable from a regular GP, think the hood extractors and exhaust tips help somewhat.
At that time most of the GP GTPs I saw were 2 doors, and of the 4-doors most were either the GT or GTP. I saw very, very few SE models. Pontiac lost me when they dropped the 2-door and I've never warmed to the restyled 2002 GP.
No brand loyalty. My 2000 GTP had a lot of issues. I only bought the GTO because Pontiac didn't make it, Holden did. One of it not GM"s best quality cars and interiors, IMHO.
Too bad GM cancelled the 2 door GP in 2002 and the F body the same year. The 2003 GP was the same minus the 2 door. GP was restyled for 2004 and I don't care for it, esp the rear.
Like you, don't care for the restyle. Am still a fan of the 1997 - 2003 body style, particularly the coupe. Even the 4-dr was nice looking, with the coupe-like lines.
1st, lets get one thing clear...the GTO does not "blow the doors off" the GT, I think even the GTO owners will agree to that. The posted performance numbers are very close.
Also, I think we've heard that statement about a stock GT will never beat a stock GTO one too many times. I think everyone here knows that. That is not the issue. It's performance vs dollars, and as priced, both in the majority of reviews, and even if you look at Pontiac's or Ford's site, you can't be the price of the GT for the power you get.
Here is one link to the story in case any one is interested.
Bye Bye GTO
Perhaps because it's not really news to most of them. I think it's been kicked around for the last couple of weeks in the GTO forum.
Also, demise of the GTO may hasten GM to bring the new Camaro to market quicker rather than later. That's pure conjecture on my part.
(A car that ain't commercially viable is a car I stay away from.) :shades:
:confuse:
Where did I insinuate that the GTO was a success?
I thought it was plain from the Edmunds report that GM wasn't satisfied with the sales numbers. All I was trying to do was to say that with the GTO gone, that GM might speed up the release of a Camaro.
I had wished that GM would build one on a new platform, give it the styling it deserved and made it a true competitor to the new Mustang.
I'll be sad to see the GTO go away. I thought it had tons of potential. But, if there's a silver lining, it sounds like maybe/perhaps GM will build the Camaro for the '09-'10 model year. Still, it was my hope that Pontiac would carry the banner...staying true to its "performance" division moniker, with a new GTO.
RIP GTO....we hardly knew you.
Not to worry, the new Camaro will be here soon enough and they'll be bragging to their hearts' desire again. :sick: Hopefully it can hang on more than 3 model years. Ooooo!
j/k
It's no fun beating up on the imports and sport compacts all the time. LONG LIVE AMERICAN MUSCLE!!
Uh, it was known from the start that the contract to import GTOs was 3 years only. I not sure why everyone thinks this is some sort of surprise...
Hate to break the news to you genius, but when we're talking these kinds of numbers, a 5 tenths of a second difference is definately "blowing the doors off" of your play play mustang. That's like saying Ben Johnson barely beat Carl Lewis in '88.
Let's cut the BS. Everyone hear is mainly concerned with one thing with these two cars, the "smoke or get smoked" factor. Talk all you want about looks, Australia, whatever. Bottom line is when you Mustang owners turn out the lights and go to bed at night, in that little place in the back of your mind, no matter how hard you try to block it out, you know your manhood is forfeit because that LS2 will rip your guts out, ALL DAY. AND THAT IS NOT DEBATEABLE (please save the supercharge this and that comments).
Those 5 tenths in the quarter mile end up costing a GTO buyer 5 grand. Mustang GT buyers can't dispute a stock GTO can out-accelerate a stock GT, nor can a GTO buyer dispute Edmund's objective data that the average price for a SIMILARLY configured GTO is 5 large more than the GT. Why would I pay 5 grand more for something that looks terrible, gets worse gas mileage, has a far worse repair and reliability record when I can get something very close and use those greenbacks to out accelerate and out corner the GTO?
No, everyone here is NOT mainly concerned with one thing between these two cars. Apparently, only the GTO guys. Perhaps the Mustang guys are adult enough to realize that life DOESN'T begin and end with 0-60 and 1/4 mile timeslips. Those who DO put a lot of stock in those things will (pardon the pun) NOT be running stock for long.
Bottom line is when YOU turn out the lights and go to bed at night, in that little place in the back of your mind, no matter how hard you try to block it out, you realize that you've transferred all of your self worth into an inanimate object. Some of us with a little more self confidence really don't care.
Actually, it doesn't come as a surprise to us. The thing is, though, the GTO guys were in denial the whole time. I recall that some of them about soiled themselves when they heard there was going to be a 2006 model.
We GAVE our manhood to the Jessica Alba of cars, the playboy centerfold of cars...something someone is is going to remember for a long time, and something that will be around for just as long.
But GTO owners, you threw your manhood away to a one night stand. Here today GONE tomorrow. (Or in your case, the end of this year!!!) Bye Bye GTO.
"...there's always somebody faster out there."
Funny, I thought we were talking about the GTO and Mustang, but yeah (let me see 4.6 -.5 = 3.9), if you show me a 3 second car, I have no problem admitting "I just got smoked".
"...harder edged car."
If "harder edged" means looks cheap and makes a sound like tin when you tap it, I agree with you. Maybe next year you guys can get really "hard edged" and all buy Nissan 350 Zs.
As I expected, more BS. Since no Mustang owner can relate to or cares to address the "Smoke or Get Smoked" fator, my argument just gets stronger. Due to the fact I have to say "pick on a Mustang" (can't really say challenge) when it comes to these things, it really just makes the argument more lopsided and boring to me.
As far as for the "End" of the GTO. While "killing" an automobile is not necessarily a good thing for the car manufactuer, it can be a great thing for the owner and for the street cred of the car (think '95, '96, '97 Chevy Impala- oh I forget who I'm talking too. You guys probably won't understand that either. oh well.)