Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

redsfan1 · December 2006

One more questsion for you guys! I am no car expert at all. That is why I am posting my concern on here about the 4 cylinder Toyota Camry. Does anyone own or know others that have had problems w/the hesitiation issue w/the transmission? Do you think the problemn has been fixed? Sounds like the reviews of owners on the edmunds board is really mixed. thanks

mfletou1 · December 2006

Yes, options vary depending on the region.

But how about Chicago? $22996...

http://www.carmax.com/dyn/factsheet/factsheet.aspx?id=4059336

The point is that the vehicles can be had. Fitz and CarMax aren't neccesarily the lowest price, either--sometimes you can do better at your local dealer. For my Camry, I couldn't, but when I bought my Maxx, I beat Fitzmall by over $1,000.

I'm just tired of lazy "those cars can't be had for under $25k," etc etc argument. I hear that constantly about the Camry and the Accord V6, and both of them can be had for under $25, easily.

akirby · December 2006

It may be faster but the Fusion handles better. There's more to performance than 0-60, especially in a family sedan.

lahiri · December 2006

Who wants a Malibu? I don't. It won't be long before all GM divisions start selling rebadged Malibus. And, it will be hard for you to remember which badge you have on your car!

neteng101 · December 2006

And the Accord handles better than the Fusion, there's more to performance in a family sedan than the Fusion provides... slalom and 0-60 times both go to the Accord in the Edmunds comparo. And for true outright performance there's always the 6-speed Accord!

People buying a Camry aren't likely those interested in mainly performance/handling. For performance/handling, there are better choices in a sedan than the Fusion. :P

And when the 2008 Accord comes out - everything else will be toast! :sick:

goodegg · December 2006

And when the 2008 Accord comes out - everything else will be toast!

I'm sure the new Accord will be a hit - but aren't you just a LITTLE premature (9 months or so) with this assertion?

BTW - who will win the Florida/Ohio State game?

ontop · December 2006

Go Gators!

driverdm · December 2006

Maybe it is just me but to me the new Malibu front end looks far too much like the Impala front end. I mean there is family resemblance and then there is too close to distinguish. Except for the grill, the fronts look very a like and the Impala in real life isn't anything to right home about design wise. It is a nice design but not really bold or suffisticated looking. Also the new Malibu is very very close in size to the Impala so I wonder if the two will be cross shopped like the Altima and Maxima.

mhattrup · December 2006

Why not the Legacy GT? If you find the right dealer you can pick one up for around $25K and it is an absolute blast to drive I think. Especially with the manual transmission. Even with an auto I think it is a fun car and I hate autos. It's a bit conservative in its styling but I like it better than the Accord and Camry. I liked how it drove better than the Accord and that is saying something in this class. I've also test driven the new Altima (but it was a base CVT and I wasn't impressed). However C&D just did a comparison of 4 cyl models and it finished second to the Accord and did well in the Fun to drive types of categories that I tend to pay attention to. So I'm going to have to go test drive the Altima again.

I just recently purchased a 2006 Honda Si Coupe and I think coming out of it and jumping in the Altima wasn't really fair to the Altima. I think I'll drive my 99 VW Passat for part of a day then drive over and take an Altima for a spin - that will probably lessen the feeling that I've gotten out of a go-cart with hyper reflexes and jumped into an RV :-) I was having a hard time reconciling my own test drive of the new Altima with the C&D review comments so I think the Civic's handling probably colored my impression of the Altima significantly.

jaxs1 · December 2006

Yes, they will be cross shopped by some people until the new, bigger rear wheel drive Impala comes out the next year.

zzzoom6 · December 2006

Anyone out there tried the Subaru Legacy basic model - not the GT? Sort of the forgotten company. The boxer engine and all wheel drive at least sound appealing.

I have driven both the GT w/ a manual tranny and the non turbo w/ the auto. The gt was very impressive. lots of grip, good steering, and pretty quick turn in. keep the tranny in the right gear, and accelerating out of corners was amazing. by far the best experience I've had in all the cars I've driven in terms of how it handled coming out of corners.

the non-turbo model was pretty good for a 4 banger. I've had a subaru with the 2.5 before, and they have pretty good low end pull. of course awd helps keep the power to the road. but then awd will leech at least 20HP and the auto was probably robbing another 20 so it was passable but not a visceral driving experience like the GT. and gas mileage w/ that 2.5 was not great...and it asks for premium.

I really like subarus...they are a little soft compared to the mazda6, but still handle great. wish their brakes were better though. some people say they are small, but I think they are quite adequate. for people who live in bad climates, the non turbo would be a good choice.

zzzoom6 · December 2006

With all the new and near new models plus the upcoming Accord replacement coming during next year, the Mazda6 is going to be looking really outdated once the Accord debuts and the Mazda6 becomes the oldest design still selling.

except that many people on this forum who don't own the mazda6 still say that it's one of the best looking cars in this class right now. despite it's age, it's still one of the best handling cars in this class without having a harsh ride.

the one thing that I think is looking a bit dated on the mazda6 are the taillights. but now that they have the black taillights instead of the red ones, it will buy them a bit of time until the new 6 comes out.

but exterior styling wise, it still looks good and I get compliments quite frequently from total strangers.

zzzoom6 · December 2006

well done to hyundai... they responded well to criticism and came out with a much nicer looking center stack. the color scheme looks a bit off though...navy blue seats with a stark black center stack with shades of grey and silver and titanium are just enough to look like a confused color scheme. but the navy blue seats just may be lighting...it could be black.

I'd have to agree though that I like the accord's interior better... it just seems to have more flow and balance. but a major improvement for the sonata.

driverdm · December 2006

I don't know how to post the pictures, but the main picture of the new Malibu that is posted on the Inside Line mainpage looks like a Lexus LS to me. This shows how generic the LS looks in my opinion. If they had spent more money on a completely original design, it wouldn't be so easy to mimic.

lilengineerboy · December 2006

ZZZoom..Only the Turbo wants premium, the 2.5 non-turbo chugs happily along on 87 octane and seems to get about 30 mpg (with a manual).

louiswei · December 2006

Malibu that is posted on the Inside Line mainpage looks like a Lexus LS to me

Malibu:

LS:

I don't see any resemblance...

However, these I do:

Malibu:

TL:

elroy5 · December 2006

I don't see many similarities between the TL and the Malibu. The headlights are totally different, the doors on the TL are almost flat with the BMW indention, the Malibu doors are a lot more rounded. The rear end on the TL is much shorter than the trunk lid on the Malibu. Grill, again totally different. The only thing that looks similar in size and shape is the fender flares, not enough to say they look alike.

imidazol97 · December 2006

They look similar to me unless you're trying to resist that something might have the TL characteristics. Well they are different: one's white; other, red.

louiswei · December 2006

Take a close look at the roof line, windows shape, C-pillar and rear shape (from the side) then tell me that those 2 don't look similar.

elroy5 · December 2006

From the top of the doors up, sure, but I'm sure you can find many sedans that have the same basic shape. But from the top of the doors down, not much in common. I guess you see what you want to see. It is however, what's under the sheet metal that really counts.

louiswei · December 2006

I'm sure you can find many sedans that have the same basic shape

I don't think so, I believe TL's roofline and window shape are pretty original, until this new Malibu came along that is...

The only other car I can think of that has the similar upper body shape is the Avalon:

However, Avalon's trunk shape (from the side) is very different than TL's, unlike the new Malibu.

imidazol97 · December 2006

The Avalon suffers the same rear end mistreatment that the 03-05 Accord does.
The Camry, Avalon, and ES Toyota model all have the same basic style and underpinnings look with sheetmetal changes to vary the overall effect some. Same basic car.

m1miata · December 2006

Guess that is one of the reasons people may choose to buy a CTS. The car looks like no other on the road. That Acura looks fine. One of the better looking FWD cars out there. But then again, even the Sonata is not too bad a look. Some people were excited by the Aura design - not sure why. The Camry is more designer now than is the Aura. That future Malibu is not too shabby looking. If they could sell it with the 3.6V6 for around $20k-22K, that would be good competition to the Camry. If too close to the $24K Camry in price, I think most people, other than rental fleet buyers, will opt for the Camry over the Malibu. Personally, the Milan is pretty good in respect to being styled different enough to be recognized as not just another Japan car.

As for cars all looking alike? Well of course they don't, yet most are not special enough in looks to standout. If you have a CTS or a Jaguar XJ8, it will not be mistaken as another auto. Now the world awaits the New Accord -- will it be a radical, and/or beautiful car?
-Loren

driverdm · December 2006

From the frontclip forward to me, the LS and Malibu resembal each other save for the grill. I think if we had two pictures from the same angle, you'd see what I am saying clearer. Thanks for posting them side by side though.

redsfan1 · December 2006

I have narrowed down my choice I am pretty sure to that Honda Accord. Now the hard part is deciding between the 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder. I have driven both and noticed the 6 was a little quieter. I am not that smart about cars. I am 25 and purchasing my first car. I have saved a decent down payment for the vehicle so I could afford both the 4 and the 6 cylinder. I was looking at the 6 cylinder sport edition but it seems as though all of the dealships in my area are sold out of that model that has an MSRP of around 23,900. I dont need a lot of extras like leather seats etc. I need to call one more dealership tomorrow.

Does anyone have any thoughts of there experience owning a 4 or 6 cylinder and the price you paid. Would you do it again?

Thanks! I promise I will let all of you know what I get soon! This has been a 3 month process. Its been stressing me out! These boards are very helpful though

redsfan1 · December 2006

Is it also true that you save more if you buy by the new year since dealerships want to get cars off the lot before they have to pay taxes on them. Any thoughts on this?

meateater · December 2006

Is it also true that you save more if you buy by the new year since dealerships want to get cars off the lot before they have to pay taxes on them. Any thoughts on this?

No.

One tax will probably offset another tax for the dealership. You'll never know the dealer's positions tax-wise anyway bro. That's an old tale.

And altho you may get a slightly better deal at the end of the year, there will be MANY people doing the same thing as you! Wanting to buy the last day of the year to get the supposedly 'best deal ever'. The dealers aren't stupid. They know you're in the buying mode which will put them at an advantage knowing you WANT TO LEAVE WITH A NEW CAR! They're not gonna give it away! Believe me.

I've done it. Bought last December 31'st. The dealership was packed with buyers. So yea- you'll probably get a good deal, but nothing better than any other day. In fact you may get a better deal on the slow Tuesday or Wednesday after New Years Day cause the dealership will be DEAD!

Don't let your enthusiasm to buy a new car cost you some money. Good luck.

neteng101 · December 2006

Does anyone have any thoughts of there experience owning a 4 or 6 cylinder and the price you paid.

You're having a hard time finding an SE V-6 because of the lease deals that are available for it right now till the end of the year. The SE V-6 is also an '07 addition, so there are no '06 leftovers to be had. The extras are nice but the SE V-6 is like the best value out there to be had, its not a lot more expensive than the SE 4.

I didn't test out the 4... but the 6 is a nice engine. V6 engines have a ton of torque that 4s are lacking, so its easy to pick up speed effortlessly while a 4 might have to be worked harder. But you'll be saving on gas with the 4. My dealer found me an '07 SE V-6... they couldn't get my exact color choice but since its a lease I wasn't being too picky (just did not want anything with beige inside).

Ask your dealers if they could do a swap and get you the SE V-6 if you want that... it might take a few days but they might be able to find one.

goodegg · December 2006

I am 25 and purchasing my first car. I have saved a decent down payment for the vehicle so I could afford both the 4 and the 6 cylinder.

I remember those days.......

If it was me I wouldn't put any money down. Finance the whole thing, but that's just me. I'd put my money into something that will leverage my earnings, like advertising for my business.

At 25 YMMV, but I could care less about the 'equity' in my car (probably cause I have none). But if your payoff = the value of your car if you sold it you can get out of it without taking a hit. And a Honda will allow you do do that.

redsfan1 · December 2006

You are exactly right about the lease deals. That is what they told me. I am going to call one dealership tomorrow. There website says they have 3 but I would be suprised. One place I called said all of the dealerships in the city i live in were out. I called another and it was out. However when looking at this one places inventory I saw one. I plan to call tomorrow at noon. Sounds like what I need in a car. Do you know how much I could get one of those for?

redsfan1 · December 2006

Thanks for your advice. I guess I am in more of a push to find something before the new year becacuse of this tale. I have even had dealerships tell me that over the phone. Do they have to pay taxes on all cars that don't sell? I was just worried I would get charged more next year.

jimmy81 · December 2006

Do they have to pay taxes on all cars that don't sell?
You mean paying a tax for being unsuccessful? Now that's some backwards economics. Ask them what kind of "tax" they're talking about.

dudleyr · December 2006

I would go for the 4-cylinder Accord. It gets better gas mileage, is cheaper and is plenty fast.

booyahcramer · December 2006

Do they have to pay taxes on all cars that don't sell?

I think this depends on the state the dealer operates in, but I don't think many states have an inventory tax. If there is such a tax in your state (what state are you in?), the dealer is, and has been, well aware of it, has operated for years with it, and more than likely just passes it along to its customers in its pricing, cause they're gonna carry inventory over to the next year. Plus its a deductible expense to them, which lessens it's carry thru impact to you.

To me its just smoke and mirrors. There are countless ways a dealer makes, and spends money. I'd bet this inventory tax, if it exists, is immaterial to the countless other expenses the dealer incurs every other day or month of the year.

Bust the dealer's chops. Ask how much the tax is and craft your deal that much lower. They brought it up.

Don't look too eager to buy. Good luck and Happy New Year.

scape2 · December 2006

This is a Camry LE V6 for $22,996.. Now add leather, heated seats, sunroof, 17" wheels, and so on.. watch that price rise to up over $27,000 really fast.. :shades:

tamu2002 · December 2006

I bought a manual 4-cy Accord Value Package for $16.3K before TTL in Sep. It's extremely quiet and refined, and plenty powerful. I've had V6 cars and our current quets van has 244hp (although much heavier for sure). My 4-cy accord compares very favorably to them powerwise. But I never tried to race it. I like to play the game of maximizing the mpg, so I drive gently and get 32-34 mpg consistently.

Take the 4-cy and save yourself some money. The V6 isn't worth it.

zzzoom6 · December 2006

just checked on the subie site, and you are right... the non-turbo legacy does recommend non premium gas. just assumed that my old 96 legacy's gas requirement would be the same. in city driving, my 2.5 liter got around 18mpg, and hwy was around 25. seems that they've made that boxer much more efficient.

mfletou1 · December 2006

The end of the month deal can also depend on financing. Just like everybody else, some dealers finance cars, they don't outlay cash for them. So every month, they pay a finance charge for vehicles that stay in inventory. That is partly where the "end of the month" push comes from.

I'm not aware of an "end of the year" issue though.

Yes, obviously if you option up a Camry that far, it will get up there. But it will also be nearly identical to a Lexus ES350, which costs a lot more than the Camry. However, the Camry LE V6 still comes with an acceptable level of standard equipment for most people, and with an excellent V6. I should point out also that the Camry V6 won the Edmunds comparo, even against the Accord.

You can't go wrong with either the 4 cyl or 6. But if you can afford the 6, why not? The fuel economy difference is actually not great at all...

jaxs1 · December 2006

Actually the fuel economy difference is quite noticeable especially if you do a lot of city driving.

redsfan1 · December 2006

I live in Ohio if that helps? Do you know there guidelines? I guess I had heard that tax thing and I had heard they needed to meet certain quotas by the end of the year?

akirby · December 2006

Inventory tax is real and I'm sure it varies by state, but I don't think it's enough by itself to make a big difference. If it was, then you'd see the dealers empty out their lots which they don't do.

autoboy16 · December 2006

IMO the best deal for an accord is a plain regular EX model. I NEED a sunroof and between 150-200hp is perfect for me. But thats just me.

When searching for a new/used/"CPO" car, the best place to check is Autotrader.com. It helped me find my car and could take some of the stress off of you!

For the amount you're looking for, you can find a great deal on a CPO/Used acura Tl if you want a v6 accord ot TSX if you want a 4cyl. But again thats just me.

HOPE THIS HELPS!
-Cj

booyahcramer · December 2006

they needed to meet certain quotas by the end of the year?

I think you're putting too much emphasis on the little gimics dealers throw at you to make you think you have to buy NOW. I have a quota in my business too. I need to make a million dollars by the end of the year. Will I?

Forget about all these sales facades. Start with emailing the dealers in your area for pricing, check Edmunds and other car pricing sites to see what others are paying and that will determine your pricing goals.

Then offer $500 less and keep your mouth shut. Be willing to walk away to the next dealer and you'll likely end up with a decent deal. Or you might just cave in like most people and pay what the dealer says you'll have to. They'll feed you "our great service department" BS.

Forget the dealer's service department. That's why you're buying an Accord (I imagine).

redsfan1 · December 2006

Thanks for your advice. I actually found a dealership here that is the only one with some SE V6 cars left. Looks like a decent deal below. What does everyone else think. I mean a 6 cylinder is only 1500 more. I am going to shoot for 500 less. Do you think I could shoot for more than 500 off of internet price?

1) 2007 Accord SE Sedan - 4 Cylinder
Honda's MSRP: $22,220
Our Internet Price: $19,832
Colors Available: Taffeta White, Cool Blue, Nighthawk
Black, Royal Blue, Graphite Pearl, Moroccan Red, and Alabaster Silver.

2) 2007 Accord SE Sedan - 6 Cylinder
Honda's MSRP: $23,945
Our Internet Price: $21,401
Colors Available: Royal Blue and Graphite Pearl

elroy5 · December 2006

I would go for the V6 myself, but that all depends on you, and what you want. If all your driving is in city traffic, the 4 cyl. would be more fuel efficient. I like the Graphite Pearl color. My favorite color is Blue, but Honda's particular shade of blue is not it (too bright).

jeffyscott · December 2006

Did a quick search on this inventory tax theory. This article indicates that the important date was March 1 in Indiana. So even if this tax exists in a particular state, it does not necessarily mean that Jan. 1 matters. In addition, since Indiana apparently eliminated it, I would assume it does not exist in a lot of other states.

For my own state it does not exist and when it did the key date was May 1:

The Wisconsin Automobile Trades Association was formed statewide to eliminate the personal property tax on automobiles and on dealer inventory. The tax was killing car sales in the months prior to the annual May first assessment date. By 1934 the dealers' proposal to offset the loss of revenue by repealing the personal property tax with an increase of one cent to the gas tax was accepted by the legislature.

from: http://www.watda.org/WATDA/Public/About.asp

goodegg · December 2006

$1500 more for the V6 sounds like a great deal.

My experience was that the internet price was about as low as they are gonna go, but that you can get some freebies thrown it, like the protection package (HD floor mats and trunk liner) splash guards, pin striping etc if you push them for a lower price, then revert to accessories instead when they don't budge on the price.

I know its kinda hard to try to go real low with the dealer when you know you're probably gonna buy the car, especially if there aren't a whole lot of them on the lot remaining. But it looks like you're gonna do just fine.

plekto · December 2006

I'd actually go for the 4cyl with stickshift. And learn how if you don't know

It's about as quick in city trsaffic this way as the 6 with automatic, more fun to drive, and loads cheaper.

I'd get this:

http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91107&acode=USB70HOC011A0&restor- - - e=false
Select manual transmission.
$16,985

It needs three things though to essentially be the LX.
1: add in the rear swaybar - simple task at any auto shop - few hundred dollars. OR get it done when you take delivery.
2: add in two rear speakers. $40 - snap right in - Kenwood 5*7s.
3: alloy wheel - optional if you want. Same weight as the steel wheels, actually - so it's only for looks.

Add in #1 and #2 and you essentially have the LX. Blue is the best color because it's the same look, other than the black door handles(not noticeable with dark blue) as the pricier models.

LOADS CHEAPER. Same engine and suspension. And for a first car, saving money is what it's about, afterall. And it's WAY WAY better than a GM or Ford sedan of the same price.

neteng101 · December 2006

The VP (and 4 cylinder LX too) both come with rear drum brakes though... and even with rear discs, the brakes are not the strong point on the Accord. A manual VP might be a hard sell come time to change cars later on too. And you get teeny tires (especially compared to the V6s).

The SE (either 4 or 6) is the best value trim level IMO - you get the best essentials (rear drums do nothing to stop a car, had that before). And yes you could engine brake with the manual to help but that places more stress on the transmission/engine instead.

lilengineerboy · December 2006

It needs three things though to essentially be the LX.
1: add in the rear swaybar - simple task at any auto shop - few hundred dollars. OR get it done when you take delivery.
2: add in two rear speakers. $40 - snap right in - Kenwood 5*7s.
3: alloy wheel - optional if you want. Same weight as the steel wheels, actually - so it's only for looks.

The rear also has drum brakes, not a super big deal but harder to change than discs. The rear brakes don't do a whole lot anyway.
Is the base stereo prepped for 4 speakers? If you don't have 4 channels coming out, you need to change the head unit which is kind of pricey because of the way its integrated into the dash.
Alloy wheels are typically lighter than steel with a hubcap, but the real issue is they are pizza tins. The car is a lot more fun with a little more rubber on the road and more aggressive.

Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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