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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    Doesn't quite get it huh...

    "All-wheel drive has become all the rage, but it's a phenomenon that seemed to sneak up on some automakers.

    General Motors and Ford Motor Co. are among those scrambling to catch up as awd cars catch on.

    At the Chicago Auto Show last week, Cadillac officials admitted they underestimated demand for awd STS V-8 models. And Ford has struggled to meet unexpectedly heavy demand for awd versions of its Ford Five Hundred sedan, Freestyle sport wagon and Mercury Montego sedan.

    Ford executives might make awd standard on a new generation of Lincoln sedans that debut this decade. The automaker also might increase production plans for both the awd Mercury Milan and Lincoln Zephyr, which go on sale in about a year.

    All-wheel drive is the industry's newest "gotta have it" equipment, and it is about to get hotter. CSM Worldwide in Farmington Hills, Mich., forecasts that North American automakers will build 1.96 million awd vehicles annually by the end of this decade. That's up from about 1.06 million units this year. And that doesn't include a separate wave of imported awd vehicles.

    "It's big," says forecaster Paul Haelterman of CSM Worldwide in Farmington Hills, Mich. "It's more than just a trend. Every carmaker understands that if they're going to have a performance sedan, they're going to have to get all-wheel drive.

    "By the end of this decade," Haelterman predicts, "all luxury or near-luxury cars will have awd as standard or option." "
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Most (95%+) of the buyers do not need AWD
    a good point - how many areas of the country are frequently afflicted with, for example, snow covered roads? Agree that a very small percentage of the population are so effected. NYC area or Mid Atlantic states, no - anywhere south of the Mason Dixon line, no etc. etc.. If you live in the Mountain States, the Western part of New York, parts of the upper Midwest, possibly northern NEngland then, maybe there are good reasons to consider the tradeoffs of AWD as money well invested. And in those areas, you are not competing with the Camcords of the world, there would be where you want to own a Subaru/Saab dealerships, brands that have been well out of the mainstream for years.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    When I see those AWD IS250 with Florida or Georgia tag I just couldn't help it but laugh my rear off.
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    What about rain ? It doesn't rain in all those places you're enumerating ? Check all the AWD ads and tell me if they're showing snow or RAIN in them, or at least a wet road.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    domestic content is for parts only and doesn't say a thing about who about who made the car, a Canadian, a Mexican, or an American. That American labor is what the domestic mfgrs. are trying to get out from under, while 'import' mfgrs continue to hire more and more. If you were advocating 'buy American' and did a little research, chances are the brands you would champion wouldn't have American surnames, although (currently) the Malibu may be one of the few!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    If one can't drive in rain with either FWD or RWD with all season tires then one should not be allowed to drive, period.

    I drive in both Georgia and Florida so summer afternoon downpour is a norm to me. I had no problem driving in those conditions with either my old Accord w/all season and new IS350 w/summer tires.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    where I now live (in the southern part of Texas), we get about 50 inches of rain a year - and I don't consider AWD necessary or even a desirable feature to pay for. Doesn't make enough of a difference vs. a std. FWD (or RWD) layout, but it does seem to indicate that those ads you reference are having the intended effect on you.
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    Uh-oh for Ford...

    http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=25114

    Ford sold less 500s this year, despite AWD option for it. The Fusion being its first full year its too soon to tell what will happen in 2007, my guess its gonna drop in its 2nd year. The only reason Ford sold more cars in 2006 than 2005 is because the Taurus was still in production feeding rental fleets. 2007 will be a bad year for Ford.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    What people "need" has NOTHING to do with it. No one NEEDS a 250 HP V6 Accord, either. Many now want to buy cars with AWD.

    I don't want to pay for AWD, I'd rather have ESC. But were I a manufacturer, I more likely want to offer AWD as it is more profitable (I assume) and (I would guess) in greater demand than ESC.

    I may think buyers are foolish for demanding AWD and not caring about ESC. But if that is the case, and I am a manufacturer, I'm certainly going to meet their demands, if I can do it profitably. Just as I am going to meet their foolish demands for a 250 HP V6 in a front wheel drive sedan, if there are extra profits to be made by doing so.
  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    "NYC area or Mid Atlantic states, no."

    I beg to differ. The average annual snowfall in New York City is about 30 inches. Twice in the last ten years we've gotten that much in a single storm, and you can count on at least one 8-10 inch storm annually. The terrain is very hilly in a lot of places, even close to sea level.

    So even if you boil down the benefits of AWD to just being able to get started on a snowy day (there's much more to it than that, imo), it's definitely worth it to NY-area residents who can't miss work.

    In fact, during the blizzard of 2005 (almost a year ago), no non-AWD cars could get out of our parking garage for two days. It's a subterranean garage, with the exit on the "roof", and anything greater than a 3-4 inch snowfall is a big problem for the super because he and his crew have to shovel it by hand. My wife and I gave a bunch of people rides to their shifts at her hospital.

    I feel badly now that we didn't ask for contributions to offset the "penalty" we paid for having AWD. Maybe I'll do that the next time we have a big snow.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you can count on at least one 8-10 inch storm annually
    wow - and for that one storm every year you are wanting to go out and pay that much more for a car (both in price and operational cost) for something that might help you one or two days out of 365? Having grown up in the Boston area, I will contend to you that getting around in snow is an infrequent occurrence there as well, and they might see an annual average double that of NYC. Besides that, I was under the impression, that nobody in 'the City' actually owned cars - a place where FE is measured in gallons/mile.. ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "What people "need" has NOTHING to do with it. No one NEEDS a 250 HP V6 Accord, either. Many now want to buy cars with AWD."

    If you don't tell me what I *need* in a car, I'll refrain from telling you your needs.

    My requirements are very different from yours even in the same segment.
  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    "wow - and for that one storm every year you are wanting to go out and pay that much more for a car (both in price and operational cost) for something that might help you one or two days out of 365?"

    Yes. If you're a surgeon, or an emergency room doctor, or an emergency services worker, or someone who literally can't miss work unless he or she is dead, you pay that "penalty" and you don't think twice about it. Or if you live on a steep hill, or a street that doesn't get plowed right away, and you don't feel like taking sick days every time it snows.

    (I guess you could always count on a neighbor w/AWD, though.)

    If you think that inclement winter weather is an infrequent occurrence in Boston, we must have wildly different definitions of what constitutes "infrequent". Or maybe you rode in the trunk as a kid and couldn't see what was going on outside?

    Footnote: there are a little less than 2 million passenger vehicles registered to residents of New York City.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the difference here is that one investment (AWD) will help you get around in bad conditions, the other (ESC (esp when combined with TRAC)) will hurt. The ESC can certainly make a car safer but in no way is it going to improve anything on snow covered roads - 2 different things to spend money on. You are right about 'needing' a 250hp Accord, except for the fact that, all else being equal, a more powerful car is also a safer car.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    maybe what you really need then is a 4wd Jeep - just in case. I am classifying as 'infrequent' as those number of times that you can't drive because you don't specifically have a 4WD or AWD vehicle, as opposed to your 10 inch snowstorm which most drivers (who see that a lot more than once a year) would handle without a problem in a 'normal' FWD or RWD vehicle, plows or no plows.
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    For me, having AWD is almost meaningless- maybe something else to go wrong later on. And I grew up in snowy Buffalo, New York and my Father's GM cars were RWD with snow tires. And now living in the Washington, DC area, when it snows, the already bad traffic gets so much worse that I would rather stay home. Once every few years, we get really big snowfalls and then the people with 4wd trucks and SUVs go out (maybe to show off) and more than once I had to help push those big vehicles out when they got stuck. No thanks, KISS (keep it simple stupid) for me.
  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    All of this is pretty much a matter of taste. Sure, there are plenty of snow days where I could probably get by with bald summer tires on a '76 Nova. But will I get by easier with AWD on those days? I think so.

    And I think the flatness of Buffalo and DC weakens your argument a little bit. Hills really accentuate the strengths of AWD.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Noooo!....please, not the endless ESC debate again.

    Show me the statistics that demonstrate that a V6 Accord is safer than a 4 cylinder Accord.
  • bds92bds92 Member Posts: 21
    First of all, I don't know how many of you live in an area where it snows. One thing's for sure; if you want to risk your neck with RWD in the winter, even with snows, at least where some people live, you'd better have insurance. FWD is adequate where I live, but only with snows. But I'm only speaking from personal experience. Therefore, I see that the only logical pick for me, at least, would be AWD. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't be wrong saying that some of you get snow.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Our AWD car gets 30 mpg, is a manual transmission, a station wagon body style, and was the same price as a comparable Accord (which doesn't offer AWD or a wagon). Everything we ever wanted :blush:
    Its magnificent in snow, frosty driveways, dirt roads, and down pours.
    ESC maximizes the traction you have to 2 wheels. AWD gives 4 wheels to maximize traction. Oh, and my car has 2 limited slip differentials.
    I get to be happy with my last purchase decision too :)
  • bds92bds92 Member Posts: 21
    If you look underneath the skin, you'll notice impeccable similarity in this car to Audi vehicles, of which surpass the likes of any Japanese or Korean car.
    Japanese and Korean cars always carry FWD. FWD, FWD, FWD. For nothing. My climate just doesn't allow that.
    I know the Subaru has AWD, as the only exception, but the thought drags me down that in a couple of years, I'll be asking myself, "Why did I buy a kid's car?"
    Which leaves me with the GMs and Fords, of which are horribly made.
    Therefore, I stick with the German.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Although never own an AWD before but if I am living north of the snow belt then I'll definitely want one. However, if I am ever going to get an AWD vehicle I would just opt for one of those new crossovers instead of a sedan. Many of the AWD CUVs today have comparable FE but offer more utility than their sedan counterparts.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    know the Subaru has AWD, as the only exception

    Are you still living in the 90's or what? Here are the list of Japanese AWD vehicles that's NOT a SUV or truck:

    Acura RL
    Infiniti G35x
    Infiniti M35x
    Lexus IS250 AWD
    Lexus GS350 AWD
    Mazda MS6

    Also, not to mention that all Japanese/Korean SUVs/CUVs offer AWD as option. On some of them AWD is standarded.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    jeff - know of no such statistics for any family of cars, but this one is common sense - there are times when the ability to avoid trouble or to safely merge into a faster lane of traffic (with that extra power) makes for a safer ride.
    And no didn't mean to start that 'endless' ESC debate again but the implication of you previous post seemed to be that ESC somehow is a preferred substitute for AWD in the context of bad condition winter driving. No way - AWD does improve something, ESC does not!
  • bds92bds92 Member Posts: 21
    Hey, reality check. I was talking about midsized sedans.
    You trust the Koreans? They sell on price and nothing else, may I remind you. They're not quick, they're not very luxurious, and they're the number one choice of rental cars, which means they're junk.
  • beantownbeantown Member Posts: 228
    I've never lost traction in any car I've ever owned, during the rain or during the worst Mass winters (unless I was purposely trying to)....all but one of which were FWD sedans. Even with mediocre tires, I've never gotten into trouble.

    I just don't get "the need" for AWD for 90% of the country. It has to be one of the most overrated features out there right now. Decent tires will do more for 99% of the folks out there than any AWD or traction control system would do.

    I agree with captain. If you need AWD to keep control of your midsize sedan, maybe there are other issues you should be dealing with.
  • bds92bds92 Member Posts: 21
    I live in Northern NJ. It gets cold. It snows. It rains. Incessantly. I need AWD, as do most of my tri-state comrads.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Many of the AWD CUVs today have comparable FE but offer more utility than their sedan counterparts.

    You are comparing a glorified station wagon to a sedan. If you compare a Cute Useless Vehicle to a conventional wagon or even a minivan, it will not be so favorable.
    Typically, CUVs have more weight, higher center of gravity, poorer handling, etc. I have no hangups at all about a vehicle's or manufacturer's country of origin, so that doesn't enter the equation.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    hey, double reality check. Mazda MS6 is a midsize car and don't forget Subaru Legacy as well.

    I'll trust the Koreans as long as they have the 100K/10 year warranty. BTW which car in this class is very quick and luxurious? Also, the number one choice of rental cars is call GM, not Hyundai.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    even judging by 60-70s 'musclecar' standards a number of these cars are very quick - the V6 Camrys, Altimas, and Accords and also the Passat 3.6. Luxurious, a different kind of judgement, more related to what somebody thinks a car should have in it, but not a problem with all of these cars down the option list a bit.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Mazda MS6 is a midsize car

    It sure is but it comes standard with summer tires. It seems that most owners of the MS6 on these forums are reporting decent snow traction in small amounts of snow but I wouldn't trust one on those tires in deep snow. AWD or not.
  • bds92bds92 Member Posts: 21
    Hey, triple reality check. Ford owns Mazda. American. Bad.
    The Subaru is a kid car, whether it has a little maturity on its little brother Impreza or not.
    I don't trust the Koreans because they put a 100K m/10 year warranty on their cars. That just means they don't trust their cars, and for good reason; they're horribly made.
    Rental car companies have large amounts of both.
    The Passat 3.6 AWD, with 280 hp and Audi luxury sure stands out as a quick, luxurious midsize sedan to me.
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    I live in Northern NJ.

    Same state, tons of snow, tons of rain, always FWD, never any trouble. I've driven a long ways from work home on some [non-permissible content removed] days when it snowed like mad and there were wrecks all over the GSP/NJTP and never had any issues. Also done FWD in Michigan winters, and never had any winter tires in either situation. In 2001, I drove through a horrible snowstorm overnight from Boston to NJ in a crappy '95 Corolla! Biggest problem was icing on the windshields from using the wipers to clear wet snow, had to get out and clear it several times.

    The one time I've had a bit trouble in wet weather, it was a rental Jeep Liberty POS that nearly tipped over... drank gas and for a Jeep, its traction sucked big time. SUVs are not necessarily better for bad weather, neither is AWD. The driver makes all the difference in most instances. Of course, doing snow with RWD and summer tires is just plain stupid! And then you have the people that run their tires bald... sufficient tread depth makes a ton of difference for snow/winter conditions.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    so Mazda is guilty by association? Unfair to a company that has long made some pretty fair cars. Also don't know that the 'horribly made' Korean cars is a fair assumption - anymore. They have improved THAT MUCH. But we do know that VWs come with a lot of that good German engineering at the expense of a increasingly horrid reliability rating (see BMW), a reality check for those of you that count. Your Passat, BTW, an absolute hoot to drive.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I disagree. I've gotten stuck with FWD. Never with AWD. Having four tires push is much better than two. Yes there is a downside, but I'll take the downside for the upside.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Ford owns Mazda. American. Bad.

    Following your analysis, since Ford owns Aston Martin and Land Rover I guess they are also bad as well...WOW :surprise: .

    Subaru is a kid car

    Have you been in one lately, especially the Legacy? The interior fit and finish rivals the class leader Honda Accord and its handling is also top notch in the class.

    because they put a 100K m/10 year warranty on their cars. That just means they don't trust their cars

    This is like saying I am trying to sell you my monitor and since it's so bad so I told you that I'll guarantee to give you a new one if it breaks...does it make any sense to you? :confuse:
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    This is like saying I am trying to sell you my monitor and since it's so bad so I told you that I'll guarantee to give you a new one if it breaks...does it make any sense to you?

    Makes sense to me to be wary of Hyundai because of their huge warranty. Most warranties are peppered with exclusions, caveats, prorations etc. that allows the warrantor to wiggle out of claims. I'd rather have the better car first off - one that does'nt have to lure me in because of the warranty.
  • germancarfan1germancarfan1 Member Posts: 221
    Overall, Hyundai was down 13% from a year ago (from Dec. 2005).

    Elantra, Tibby, and Tucson also saw steep declines.

    Interestly, no mention of the Hyundai strike as the cause of the steep decline. And if anecdotal evidence is any indication, my local Hyundai dealer is stocked full of Sonatas.

    Any idea why Sonatas are seeing such a decline?
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    bds92 wrote: "I don't trust the Koreans because they put a 100K m/10 year warranty on their cars. That just means they don't trust their cars, and for good reason; they're horribly made."

    As one who's has worked in engineering and marketing for consumer electronics manufacturers, a company doesn't offer a long warranty on a product because they feel that it's going to fail or it's an inferior product. In reality, the opposite is true. To be able to offer, and more importantly afford, a long haul warranty, a company has confidence in their build-quality and reliability. Hyundai offered the 100K/10 year powertrain warranty in an attempt to gain the trust of American consumers.

    And, as for your comment on Korean products being horribly made, evidently you haven't done much A-B comparing of their products against the accepted standards of quality - Honda and Toyota. Be objective, get on your hands and knees and give each vehicle a close "going over" scrutiny from top to bottom, stem to stern, and I think you will find the QC and build-quality is very good.

    Now, if you want to discuss long-term reliability of any vehicle, two that I would not want to own is a VW (anything) or an Audi. You better have a rather substantial bank account for maintenance - this is a well documented and proven statistic.

    You want to hear some blasphemy??? I spent some time talking to the service manager and sales manager (both friends) at a local superstore car dealer that sells Toyota, Scion, VW, Mazda, Hyundai, and Kia. Both overtly acknowledged that the new generation Hyundais and Kias are excellent and trouble free vehicles, but both also admitted the average consumer just can't get over the image and name of the Korean marques. In fact, the service manager went on record stating that they've had fewer warranty claims on any of the 2007 Hyundai or Kia products, as compared to their 2007 Toyota products. I found this rather astounding.
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    My service manager friend said the complete opposite of what your service manager friend said.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    blasphemous, maybe - astounding, no - surprising certainly. My only real problem with the Korean products has more to do with that consumer perception you mentioned and the resultant high discounts at purchase and the correspondent miniscule values at trade-in. Technologically, the Koreans are getting close but they do need to learn how to build things well without all that unnecessary weight. GM/Ford/Chrysler would do well to have Hyundai's product lines and Toyota/Honda/Nissan had better keep a wary eye on them.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    December's actually down a little over 9%. There are one less selling day in Dec. 2006 than Dec. 2005. You need to compare DSR, not just the raw figures.

    Why the sudden drop? Because Hyundai pulled back significantly on fleet (mainly Sonata). Production is still not 100% resulting from strike and the scandal a few months ago in Korea (i.e. full-line except Sonata/Santa Fe, which are built locally).

    VW is down over 23% in December - they didn't say why either, did they? :P Passat is down over 50% (2,874 sedan units sold) so neither performed well :)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    "I don't trust the Koreans because they put a 100K m/10 year warranty on their cars. That just means they don't trust their cars, and for good reason; they're horribly made."

    So by your logic, someone having the best warranty automatically makes the worst car - now that's some logic...

    Disagree. Hyundai has lowered its repair costs by half, and sales have skyrocketed since implementation of the 10/100K...look to me as if the brand is making better cars, instead the other way around. What do you think? :)

    RE: Passat 3.6, nice car but for the price, there are a lot alternatives I would choose over it...
  • germancarfan1germancarfan1 Member Posts: 221
    December's actually down a little over 9%

    Since when is 9.8% a little over 9 percent? LOL

    http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8ME0AOG0.htm
  • germancarfan1germancarfan1 Member Posts: 221
    Disagree. Hyundai has lowered its repair costs by half, and sales have skyrocketed since implementation of the 10/100K look to me as the brand making better cars, instead the other way around.

    Ask a Hyundai service man and he will angerly tell you that Hyundai pays some of the lowest fees to dealers in the industry.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Fine, slightly under 10%. You done nit-picking? I don't remember the actual %. I was just correcting the difference between raw and DSR.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I am simply stating info from industry/trade papers.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,299
    we have more and more people at work with hyundai's. saveral of them were replacements for several year old hyundai models.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    we have more and more people at work with hyundai's.

    With Hyundai's what?
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Hey, triple reality check. Ford owns Mazda. American. Bad.

    In REALITY, Ford owns a controlling stake in Mazda but does not own them outright. Also, Ford is the best thing that ever happened to Mazda. Without Ford, Mazda most likely would be dead and buried by now.

    I for one am thankful that they partnered up like they did. I owned a Mazda6 before my Mustang and it was one of, if not, the best car I ever drove up until the I bought the latter a few months ago.
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