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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    My fear is that they make it too big and bulky, and the handling turns from a true Mazda to a Buick (ie. not good!)


    Nah. The Fusion is a stretched version of it and it handles just fine. Mazda, or SVT for that matter, could make it a lot better too.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we have access to it now, in the form of the Mazda3 and the Volvo S40? I thought the CD3 platform is what the euro-Focus is built on as well...

    As I understand it the Modeo's platform is actually called the CD345 and it is the new version of the CD3 which the Mazda6 is based on. The C1 is what the Mazda3 and S40 are based on. Apparently the 2008 or 2009 Mazda6, whatever it ends up being, platform will be called the CD3 2 and from what I'm reading on Wikipedia (I know, take it with a grain of salt) several other FMC (not just the Ford brand mind you) models will be based on it too.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    The Fusion is a stretched version of it and it handles just fine.

    Yeah, it handles pretty well, but I still think it's a little more floaty and less precise than the current 6. It's better (IMO) than the CamCords, and I haven't tried the '07 Altima for size yet, but the Fusion handles better than the prev-gen.

    Mazda, or SVT for that matter, could make it a lot better too.

    That's what I'm hoping, for Mazda to work it's magic and keep it a true Mazda. :)

    The C1 is what the Mazda3 and S40 are based on.

    Ahh, my mistake.

    ...several other FMC (not just the Ford brand mind you) models will be based on it too.

    This wouldn't surprise me, since Ford is losing money so fast it would be smart of them to do so.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    down here (Texas), drivers ed is required as a condition of a 16 year old being allowed to drive and as a condition of outrageous insurance premiums otherwise. Ever try to tell your 16 year old that he/she couldn't have their DL as soon as they were able? My kids had me down at the DPS on their birthday!
    I was lucky, neither of them ever had an accident, or for that matter even a ticket - but I would suggest to you that it had little to do with me teaching them to drive, more likely what kind of kids they were to begin with?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    They just raised the driving age in California to 18, effective like 8 or 9 years from now. I was definitely at the DMV on my 16th bday at the first appointment of the day.
    I think in my mind, my physical existence began that day.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    wow! what happened? run out of parking spaces at the local high schools? somehow think that this would change, remembering that a kid with a driver's license can be a convenience (albeit an expensive one) for those parent voters.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    They already have graduated licensing so minors can't transport other minors (I think there is an exclusion for siblings), so the car-pooling point is mute.
    I actually was shocked it passed as well. I know my license made my parents life easier as I was one less kid to schlep and I could also cart siblings around.
    (Which was done in a variety of mid-sized sedans ranging from sorry to dreamy).
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The Fusion/Milan/MKZ use the CD3 platform which is a wider, longer Mazda6 platform. The Edge and MKX use a modified CD3. The Mondeo uses the EUCD platform. Ford doesn't need 2 or 3 different CD size platforms so expect one platform to be shared by Ford (Europe/NA). I could see Mazda keeping their own platform that's slightly smaller and sportier. Zoom zoom is their trademark.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    have always liked Mazdas especially when they weren't Fords which goes back awhile. Guess my question is, where does that zoom-zoom come from - a continued reliance on pressurizing the bejeepers out of a tiny 4 banger, or relying on Ford to be able to provide them with a better V6? One of those things Mazda is already doing, the other may be a long time coming or not happen at all.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Zoom zoom zoom is more about the styling and handling than pure speed. Mazda can use the 3.5 (they are, in the CX-9 e.g.) if they want to, but the bigger the engine the more adversely it will affect handling (especially in a transverse engine vehicle that's already front heavy).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    vehicle balance, as you suggest, may logically effect the handling. I have read that one of the reasons, besides Ford's finances, that the 3.5 has been so long in coming and TMK has not be announced yet in any 'established' vehicle other than the 500, is limited production capacities wherever that engine plant is. If this is the case, how does the 6 end up with an engine that is not available - it may well not be a case of 'if they want to'?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Is the Camry set to get old and stuffy?

    Kind of funny article talking comparing what Buick and Oldsmobile went through to Toyota's effort to lower median buyer age.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    this is something that I think has really always been the case - Toyota correctly understanding that the American buyer generally prefers big and soft to small and hard. And the older we get, this preference gets even more pronounced. While there are a few exceptions (the Celica/Supra come to mind), what was the last Toyota that could remotely be considered sporty? Besides which, they do have Scion, which apparently does pretty well catering to younger preferences especially in the bling dept..
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    what was the last Toyota that could remotely be considered sporty? Besides which, they do have Scion, which apparently does pretty well catering to younger preferences especially in the bling dept..

    I'm not sure anyone who is a serious driver would call the any Scion sporty... they tC has been criticized as being too soft in the handling department. Sounds familiar to me (EVERY Toyota lately is a softie)...Bling/younger styling do not make a sports car.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    did not say that the Scions were 'sporty' only that they
    do seem to be appealing to the younger set - maybe a lot of that having to do with silly things like 8 million watt subwoofers and custom colored trim panels. 50 yeare olds like me will never understand that - give me a shotgun to handle those subwoofers at traffic lights or car washes, and I couldn't give a damn about the color of my mobile phone is or whatever a text message is.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The last thing I read said that Ford would produce 325,000 3.5L engines this year. The plan is to grow production capacity over time and that Fields has mandated they ramp up production capacity more quickly than they had planned.

    The CX-9 production numbers shouldn't be that big anyway.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you surely don't think that Ford is going to be able to expand the plant and/or refit an existing one by putting those costs on their credit card?
    and yes, it is most likely that those 3.5s will make it into lower production vehicles a long time before it sees higher production ones.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    325,000 Duratec35 engines are produced in half of the newly renovated, flexible Lima Ohio engine plant right now. The other half produced the AJ35 V8 for the Lincoln LS as well as the Vulcan 3.0 for the Taurus. The latter two are gone, or soon to be gone, and the Duratec35 production can expand to the other half in the future. Ford, and not just the Ford brand, says 20% of it's vehicles will have the Duratec35 in them by the end of the decade. Currently that's about 600,000 (they sold just a touch under 3 million vehicles in 2006) vehicles right?

    Sounds like the math works to me. :)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Plans to expand use of the 3.5L have been known since the program began. Whatever is needed for increased production is either already in place or already funded. It's not like they suddenly decided to start using more of them - it was planned that way from the beginning.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you sound like somebody that might know - read somewhere that the 3.0 and 3.5 blocks were identical, the 3.5 being nothing more than a bored/stroked DT3.0. This 'Detroit' approach (attacking a problem with displacement as opposed to R&D) would make some sense given Ford's situation. If this is the case, Ford would still be lagging under the hood...
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Whatever is needed for increased production is either already in place or already funded.
    The 500 is the car that perhaps needs the 260hp the most and was 'promised' in 3 years - should have been for the 2007 MY. We are now working on 4, and still haven't seen it. Maybe they planned on being a year late from the beginning?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    you sound like somebody that might know - read somewhere that the 3.0 and 3.5 blocks were identical, the 3.5 being nothing more than a bored/stroked DT3.0. This 'Detroit' approach (attacking a problem with displacement as opposed to R&D) would make some sense given Ford's situation. If this is the case, Ford would still be lagging under the hood...

    Which is wayyyy different the way the Honda does it?:
    C-engine family
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The 3.5L is a clean sheet design that shares virtually nothing with the 3.0L. If it was just a displacement bump then it would have been ready 5 years ago. The 3.5L supports Direct Injection, twin turbos, etc. It will also spawn a 3.7L variant for Lincoln. The only problem with it is it was needed 2 years ago.

    The 08 Five Hundred is due out in April with the 3.5L.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    OK, point taken, but we are talking apples and oranges here - the engineering acumen in Honda engines, 4 or 6 cylinder, in a league that very very few other mfgrs. even approach.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    This is true. They are directed, as one can see from the ads, to the independent urban dweller.

    There are no beaches, open roads, lakes, pastures, twisties or parents in any of the commercials. It's all urban environment.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    The 08 Five Hundred is due out in April with the 3.5L.

    The redesigned Mazda6 is rumored to also get the 3.5L, as well as the revised Fusion/Milan twins, in '09.

    I don't remember exactly, but I've seen and heard this from more than one source. I'd assume that capacity at the engine plant will be up by then, if they're clearing out the other two assembly lines.

    This could also be the reason why they bumped back the Mazda6 redesign until mid-'08 as a '09 model, just to give themselves enough time to ensure adequate supply of the 3.5L.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    then what is specifically different about it - fitting something for an extra set of injectors, or a cheap fix solution to HP (turbocharging) etc. - does not a clean sheet design make even when they actually get around to doing it. The DT3.0, while DOHC, has a very rudimentary (inertially shifted cam) VVT system on the intake side only and is regarded by almost all automotive experts as a 'rough and unrefined' engine - granted it is 15 years old. Indeed all the consumer has to do is drive one and ask it to do something it doesn't 'like' - maybe something like revving past 4 or 5000 rpm or so. I have read (MT TOY issue) that the 3.5 has the same problem in the Edge. OTH the reports I've read on the Lincolns have been generally complimentary. Tell me something about a CVVTi system, technology that many of the mfgrs of the cars in this group have been doing since before Ford started promising it.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    What's different? You mean besides the block and the heads? They spent $335M upgrading the Lima plant to produce it. They wouldn't do that if it was just a modified 3.0L.
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    Just so we are clear, the engine is assembled in Lima, Ohio. The components aren't all made in the US though...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Cyclone_engine

    Its certainly a competitive engine in the V6 space. I doubt if anyone else has an answer to compete with a Honda 4 though.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    See the link in post 11246. It seems to spell out all of the major differences between the 35 and the 30.

    It also mentions that future expansion is planned for the Clevland engine plant. I had not read that before and I don't know how true it is because that plant is not flexible IIRC and the Lima plant is. Ford's statements seem to imply the two need to go together. Probably because the Mazda version will have different heads, the lincoln version probably has something different, etc, etc.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Over a 100 posts I've skimmed/read over and have to say wow.... :surprise:

    Rocky
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    According to the wikipedia information, the Fusion/Milan, Mazda6, are not going to get the 3.5L. The Mustang, CX-9, and Jag S-Type are considered as future possible applications.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Personally, I can't help but feel the next generation 2011 Altima will have head and taillights that wrap all the way around the car at this rate...

    :D

    Now that's funny...I don't care who you are...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    This forum used to discuss merits of individual cars. Now, we have a new Altima, a new Camry, and several other new vehicles on the market (Optima, Aura, Sebring) and we're talking about engine production plants?

    BOR-ING. :)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I could see Mazda keeping their own platform that's slightly smaller and sportier. Zoom zoom is their trademark.

    Except some of the things I have seen have impled the 6 is to get bigger than the Fusion/Milan.
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    You don't have to participate. I think its good to hear about engines since there seems to be some hope for Ford in the engine department. Help's one overlook their tough interiors.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well, what about the Optima? Wouldn't the Sonata make more sense? I would think the dealer network may be more strong, the car seems to have a good initial quality score, they have the new Alabama plant, and well let's say for other reasons, like it is not a Kia, I would consider a Hyundai first for a Korean make. All the data and reviews are looking pretty promising for the new Sonata. Worthy of consideration, is it not? I took a brief test run and it was OK. Same with the Aura, which I am thinking may be best to test in both flavors XE and XR. I only tested the XE. And you mentioned the New Sebring. Have you seen the car? If you liked the looks, then proceed. I personally would rather consider a Charger or 300 if going with that brand.

    Kinda like the looks of the Fusion and really like the Milan. I know the tail is a bit high. Looks like the Milan stylining sort of controls the big butt look, just a tad compare to Fusion. Overall, a good looking auto. So will Ford be around for years to come? I am more concerned about the company than lack of a few ponies in that 3.o engine. The V6 seems adequate. Would be nice to have the 3.5 - no doubt. Let's see, the side air bags are standard. No stability control standard, but I guess I can live without it. That said, stability control is suppose to be a very good safety feature to have -- there when needed. And Hyundai has it on the Sonata. Is it really a gotta have? I have never had a car out of control and sideways, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Only takes once to ruin a lifetime. At the moment, it appears not to be a deal breaker though, as people buy loads of cars without that feature. Speaking of safety features, my PT has no side bags, no stability control, no anti-lock brakes, and well not much other than brakes and an old pilot steering it. About 38 years of driving now without an incident -- not bad!
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Fusion and Milan interiors aren't all that bad -- pretty good, I would say. The pop-up bin on the top looks like something which has some potential to rattle, and some other lighter plastics, but overall it ain't all bad. What elements are not appealing to you?

    I would like to see orange back lit gauges. Seemed like nice seats, as I recall.
    -Loren
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    One interesting thing about Kia . . . its market and quality perception is much different in Europe than here in the USA. It's actually more popular than Hyundai in Europe, and well accepted. But, that's the case with many cars in Europe, as compared to the USA. Kia is building a new plant in Georgia, so it too will have a USA manufacturing presence soon.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Except some of the things I have seen have implied the 6 is to get bigger than the Fusion/Milan.

    I hope not. If they want to go big they should bring back the 929 or something. Midsized cars should be midsized. If I wanted to pilot a barge I would get a cop car or something.

    The Mazda6 is the most fun car at its price point, like the Contour was before. I hope they don't mess with it too much.

    Its interesting that the cars keep getting bigger to the point the manufacturers have to keep adding cars in at the bottom. Look at the Civic...it got as big as the Accord used to be so they had to add the Fit so they would have something actually small. Mazda realized this nitch with minivans...the Mazda5 and MPV are both smaller than other imported minivans...that is to say they are actually mini.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    may be BOR-ING, but for some of us, it is the drivetrain and the engines, in particular, that make or break a car. Is your Accord, for example even half the car that it is without that wonderful 4 cylinder, or the Altima 3.5 half of what it is without the VQ. This may seem like Ford bashing, but for some reason Ford followers take specific offense when that company's ability to produce competitive smaller engines is questioned, something that does have some historical basis in fact.
    The 3.5 is apparently a really new engine (I appreciate the wikipedia reference) that is, at least, in terms of HP/torque, competitive, although it is not apparently going to end up in things like the Fusion/mazda 6. Unfortunate because putting an engine with those kind of specs might seriously improve those cars, both of which ARE solid designs to start with.
    But OK, enough about the 3.5 - we'll see how well it really does.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm not knocking the engine aspect of a car, just the "where are they manufactured" kind of talk. I didn't mean to sound obnoxious with that comment... I was just trying to get back to individual cars instead of engine lines...

    Y'all carry on with whatever y'all like, I'm not the boss in here :)

    PS Captain2: And I do love that I4 in my Accord... :)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    that's OK, our host doesn't like the where they are made talk either!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    stability control is suppose to be a very good safety feature to have.
    actually probably is, but please read a comparo done in this months (02-07) C&D on the new M5 with a MT. Stability control has apparently almost ruined what ought to be THE premium ride. The article will give you a good idea of how these systems as well as other electronic systems, improperly applied, can work to make a car almost undriveable.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    According to the wikipedia information, the Fusion/Milan, Mazda6, are not going to get the 3.5L.

    This is why I don't trust wikipedia...

    Click Me

    More '09 Mazda6 info:
    article

    It also mentions that the redesign will retain the 5-door and wagon as well as the sedan, and a hybrid version is expected as well.

    Am I saying any of this is set in stone? Nope. It means that I'm not ruling ANYTHING out (in terms of the 3.5L or body styles) until official word comes from Mazda.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The article will give you a good idea of how these systems as well as other electronic systems, improperly applied, can work to make a car almost undriveable.

    Which is why there should always be an OFF button to these systems. I'm all for putting these systems in every car made, but WITH AN OFF BUTTON like Honda provides.
  • micro99micro99 Member Posts: 51
    hey w9cw , you raise a very interesting issue indeed concerning the differences between the European and American perspectives on KIA products. KIA has a lot of work to do to improve it`s market share here but is, from what I read, beginning to make some small inroads.
    I find it fascinating (and amusing) that many of those who diss the Optima justify their comments simply on the grounds that `its a KIA`!! It`s my bet that they have never closely looked at, sat in, or driven one and the long -held negative perception prevails .
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    don't know about the Honda system, but there are several makes out there, that turning these things off doesn't mean that is necessarily off! Probably some TV lawyers at work.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Disabling the stability control also flags the black box in the car (event data recorder) to help absolve the manufacturer in the event of a crash.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Anyone who disses the Optima because "it's a Kia" should read the recent reviews by MT, C/D, and CR... thoroughly.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    same source - different stories, and who says we can't trust the press? ;)
    Hope the article is right, the 6s would really be nicer with a smooth 260hp or so and likely less pricey than the Speed6. It is interesting to me that also in the same article it is noted that the better acceleration times on the Speed6 were possible only with the stability control off
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