Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

captain2 · February 2007

you're kidding! one of the most ludricrous examples of how far down the CYA path we've gone....

lilengineerboy · February 2007

you're kidding! one of the most ludricrous examples of how far down the CYA path we've gone....

I have no problem with this, people feel they can "outdrive" the system, then let them, but then they are on their own. I don't think people deserve to have it both ways anyway. Why should the manufacturer be responsible for that?

captain2 · February 2007

ever read any George Orwell? Welcome to the past!

mz6greyghost · February 2007

So what?

I don't think it's a bad thing either. In this sue-happy society we live in, I don't blame the manufacturer for taking steps against paying out in lawsuits for someone else's stupidity. I wouldn't want that liability, would you?

There's no Orwellian connection here. I just blame the lawyers, like everything else they've screwed up...

You purposely decide to turn off ESP to showboat and you wreck your car, too bad!

captain2 · February 2007

Ok so we can shoot all the lawyers, but there is also a potential for the opposite to be true. The fact is, that these systems do limit ultimate evasive capabilities - just like that M5 article I referenced or just for grins check out what happens with the Chrysler 300 - a C&D July 2005 road test. If this is the case, as things like acceleration times, skidpad performance, and lane change numbers would indicate that yes these systems do exactly that - then, what happens with all your lawyers when the car wouldn't let you avoid something, that you (who like most folks overestimate their own abilities) THINK you could've avoided without the interference you encountered with the system on? Betcha those lawyers would be licking their chops.
It is an interesting problem. Keep in mind Big Brother has mandated these things in our cars by 2010, I think.

thegraduate · February 2007

Honda's system is actually O-F-F off! Some systems like in Mercedes just raise the intervention threshold. Others don't even give you the option (Toyota?)

captain2 · February 2007

and I assume that even if you turn it off on purpose, it automatically rearms itself the next time you start the car? Likely means that it is on basically all the time?

thegraduate · February 2007

You must push the button to disengage it once the car is restarted, yes. Most of the time, I assume 98% of drivers would want it left on. I would - 98% of the time, that is.

captain2 · February 2007

and as much as I dislike this idea of a computer making driving decisions for us, I would tell you that 99%+ of the drivers need to have it on 98% of the time. The only time I would consciously turn it off - snow and/or ice covered roads.
I do have this image in my head that has some 16 year old kid intentionally driving hard enough to get the system to work, experimentation, if you will, and a situation not good for any of us 'sane' older folks that happen to be on the same roads.

m1miata · February 2007

Since emergency maneuver problems with your FWD car would most likely involve understeer in the mix, wouldn't the ESC work better than anything you could think of doing to regain control. I here of people using emergency brakes to give the FWD some oversteer drive dynamics, but really, that sounds a bit dangerous. What exactly can a person do with FWD in say entering a curve too fast. Natural reaction is to slow down, which is taking foot off the gas or braking. I can see how, in theory a RWD car without ESC may be in some stretch of the imagination more controllable without it on. And I too have heard of the over-eager ESC like on the Chrysler 300 possibly slowing your more sporty / fun runs.

You said you have the four cylinder Honda. It came with ESC or is that an option on the 4 banger?
-Loren

elroy5 · February 2007

It (ESC) is only on V6 models.

captain2 · February 2007

understeer is an inherently safer condition for any car because that correction for entering a corner too fast for example, is intuitive - meaning lifting off the gas. FWD vehicles because they must understeer (that tendency to want to go straight out of a corner) with that front wght bias, are therefore a better setup for most drivers. Very few vehicles will oversteer (want to go deeper into that corner) although it is possible to induce oversteer with a little throttle action on some RWD cars. The best example I can remember of an oversteering nightmare was actually a early Porsche 911- and yes, when you got in too deep, the best thing to do was counterintuitive - nail the accelerator.

andres3 · February 2007

You guys are all assuming the ice is complet and all over, thereby negating the benefits of AWD. You are also assuming that maintaining control with the help of ESP wouldn't be beneficial, but in many cases it could be.

andres3 · February 2007

Wow, did you buy my Neon? It was brilliant blue.

plekto · February 2007

No, it was an ugly white that looked like there was never any clearcoat applied.(or so little that it faded as fast as a one-day paint(tm) paintjob).

Now, truth to be told, my 20 year old 4Runner isn't much better(engine is fine, though) - but it's a *20 year old truck* versus a 5 year old car. And it has a cool of-road factor, since it has off-road equipment on it and the dents and dings to prove it's been there and back. The perfect commuter-beater.

The Neon was just... there. A thing with 4 wheels and a windshield. Good riddance.

captain2 · February 2007

yes it could - but given a choice in this kind of situation (iced over roads), give me the AWD before the stability control.

andres3 · February 2007

I can't imagine what would happen if a kid used to driving with ABS-equipped vehicles gets behind the wheel of a non-ABS-equipped vehicle and gets into a panic-stop situation.

I can imagine it, they'll go into a skid and still stop fairly quickly, but with no control whatsoever.

captain2 · February 2007

to fully address your point - if the correct reaction to an understeer condition is lifting throttle and shooting some juice to your brakes (even better a specific brake) these are both things that ESC would be more than happy to do for you faster than you could do it yourself. To me, it is more a question of at what level does this happen, by definition it must happen at some level below what the car is actually capable of, otherwise it wouldn't be a 'safety feature' at all, would it?
IHTSA is estimating that 10000 lives may be saved if all cars had some sort of stability control on them, primarily in single vehicle loss-of-control accidents. Have no doubt that this may be true unless folks end up driving around like crazed banchies mistakenly thinking that their computer is somehow making them immune from the consequences of bad judgement.

jeffyscott · February 2007

One article with spy photos had estimated the Mazda6 would grow by 7 inches in length. Maybe the 6 becomes a large car and the 3 will also grow and become the midsize and something new will become the compact.

m1miata · February 2007

I am thinking ESC systems, because they can brake a wheel at a time, may indeed work well with FWD cars. I am sure you have heard of the Preludes with the fancy electronics to help them behave more like a RWD car. In a way, is this not a handy helper for the FWD. And I suppose the anti-lock brakes systems are more important these days considering all TOO much weight up front with FWD while trying to brake, let alone steer around a turn. I always feel more secure moving down a hill with RWD. With FWD the lower gearing just is not doing it correctly due to engine braking up front, and with even more load of weight to the front, I can feel the end plowing more. My bet is that there is some serious under-steering going on at that moment, and if brakes locked, off ya go. Also the pitching of the car towards the corner of the loaded side. Now going uphill allways feels OK. Well unless radically steep, then once again more problems for FWD if wet roads or ice is a condition. For simple light snow or rain, and on most roads, FWD feels pretty good. And like you stated, the natural tendency is to back off when scared during a turn, which let's the FWD car settle down and possibly slow down the under-steer as it bites in better and the rear floats out. Most every car out now has FWD, and right now I am driving a FWD, but I kinda miss the little Miata had used to sport around the country road in. That said, there are some great handling FWD cars. Test drove a Celica one day, and it was pretty fun. Would say a FWD is the same as good ol' RWD though.

Best stopping car I ever had was a Dodge Stealth with 4 disk brakes, but know anti-lock brakes. Strangest brakes were on an Achieva which were the only anti-locks I have ever used. After the car was stopped, the back end would give a little jump, like a skip or push. I got the brakes adjusted and it was alright for a few thousand miles, then started to do weird stuff again. But alas, we are talking pretty old fashion anti-lock. Those used today on GM cars is likely three or four generations of technology higher. I may get anti-lock next time.
-Loren

m1miata · February 2007

Won't it just be the same size as the Fusion? The press is always saying it is too small compared to the Camry, Accord, Altima and such. Yet they are saying it is the most fun to drive. What sells though is important. If Mazda can not find enough people will to buy the smaller, they are somewhat forced into resizing venture. Hopefully they lengthen without making it less maneuverable in the process.

I think the Mazda3, which is selling well, remains its size for some years to come.
-Loren

elroy5 · February 2007

My 92 Accord had anti-lock four wheel disk brakes, and it saved me at least two times from hitting a car that pulled out in front of me on a wet road. I could hit the brakes as hard as I wanted, and still control the car. I would have hit both cars without anti-lock.

bhmr59 · February 2007

No offence, but that's debatable. ABS helps you stop straighter, not faster.

It was likely that your driving skills is what saved you from the potential accidents.

thegraduate · February 2007

Well, if there is limited traction, using what limited traction you have is how ABS helps you stop shorter than locking up and sliding, I believe.

It may be debatable, but as the driver of a car without ABS (which helped me end-up in a guardrail) and the driver of one with ABS and EBD which has helped me stop in wet conditions where my old car would normally slide (one particular intersection downtown where I've slid straight through an intersection before - scared me silly!)

germancarfan1 · February 2007

Jan 07 Sonata sales down 38% from one year ago. 5th straight month of declining Sonata sales. Anyone know what's going on?

Meanwhile, sales of the 4-year old designed Accord are up. Is it that Hyundai doesn't have any staying power or something else?

Elantra, Tibby, Azera, and Tucson also down.

bhmr59 · February 2007

ABS helps you stop shorter than locking up and sliding, I believe.

Actually, limited traction causes a longer stopping distance for cars with ABS since the brake may be "off" when contacting a "traction" portion of the road. The reason for ABS is to allow the driver to be able to steer the car, which he cannot do when the brakes are locked.

You probably don't have to deal with snow/ice very often in Birmingham. Where I am in CT, I have a steep winding hill to navigate to get to the main road. Depending on snow/ice conditions, I've slid a bit sideways going slower than 5 mph (I don't have ABS) due to having to manually pump the brakes even while in 1st gear. (That problem existed on that road with either manual or A/T.)

After the initial political correctness, a lot of insurance companies no longer offer a discount, in CT, for ABS equipped cars.

Yes, ABS can help avoid an accident. I'll probably want it in my next car, years from now (may not have a choice, LOL) but I don't think it's as important in avoiding accidents as traction and stability control.

andres3 · February 2007

Laws of physics:

Rolling traction is greater than sliding/skidding traction. Therefore, greater traction means more braking power.

stevehecht · February 2007

XLE V6 Camry 60.5 mph
3.6 Passat 4Motion Wagon 62
Hyundai Sonata LX V6 62.1
Mazda6 63.1
3.6 Passat Sedan 63.7
Legacy GT Wagon 63.9 (4-cyl, 250 hp)
Saturn Aura XE V6 64.0
SEL V6 Ford Fusion 64.2
EX V6 Accord 64.6
3.5 SE Altima 67.0
[from Edmunds.com]

The big surprise for me is that the V6 Accord came in second, ahead of the Passat, Aura, Legacy GT, Fusion, and Mazda6. Since I drive a V6 it is a happy surprise!

shipo · February 2007

Actually no. Published in test after test after test, in limited traction conditions, non-ABS cars (or cars with their ABS disabled) stopped shorter. This has been a truism since the dawn of ABS, and was widely publicized by the anti-ABS crowd back when it was first being offered by manufacturers. The most extreme example of non-ABS cars stopping shorter comes when in deep snow or when on a gravel road, IIRC, the non-ABS cars stopped as much as 20% shorter than ABS equipped (or enabled) cars.

That having been said, the absolute benefit of ABS is the resultant vehicle control. You may well not stop as quickly, however, you will be able to maneuver when in a full on panic stop with ABS, not so without.

For my part, I prefer ABS equipped cars with a defeat switch, which gives me the best of both worlds. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

meateater · February 2007

Jan 07 Sonata sales down 38% from one year ago. 5th straight month of declining Sonata sales. Anyone know what's going on?

Meanwhile, sales of the 4-year old designed Accord are up. Is it that Hyundai doesn't have any staying power or something else?

Elantra, Tibby, Azera, and Tucson also down.

Do they still sell the Tiburon? I haven't seen a new one of those forever.

Hyundai's appeal is low pricing. Obviously that's not enough appeal. They should change the name of the car. Hyundai is a quirky name....quirky cars too.

captain2 · February 2007

would be interested to know how edmunds came up with these numbers - a definite indicator of accident avoidance capability. Would be willing to bet that the lower finishing cars were handicapped by VSC? The enthusiast mags will generally try to do their best to turn it off for testing, the consumer mags will leave it on. Can't imagine, for example, that the Sonata would've finished so low except for its std. VSC/TRAC and the 'softer' Camry, as is Toyota's practrice, gets a system that can't be disabled.

captain2 · February 2007

from what I understand, Hyundai is cutting back 'sales' to the rental lots - which is a good thing.

kdhspyder · February 2007

...and last year is that the plant in AL is now up and running instead of being in 'start up' mode.

Hyundai correctly noted it's own failings in the past and it's relatively low retail volume but it still had to fill a plant to a minimum operating level. If they knew for example that they needed 10000 units a month going over the line but they could only count on 5000 to 12000 units depending on seasonal demand they needed to offload the non-retail units somewhere.
.. ultra low pricing similar to fleet pricing to get real retail buyers in these new much better vehicles;
.. fleet sales to fill the gaps.

This costs money ( in profits foregone ) so it's factored into the startup costs of the new plant. I'd guess that the plant and the product line broke even in the first year. But Hyundai is not in it for the charity toward US buyers. It's a huge for-profit operation.

So now the first year is up, the plant apparently operates very well and puts out a good product so it's up to the Commercial Department and the dealers to get bodies into the showrooms and out the doors. Make profits like the others are making.

chrisford · February 2007

SEL V6 Ford Fusion 64.2

wonder how the AWD Fusion will do in this test. Didn't it beat the Accord in Fusionchallenge.

Legacy GT Wagon 63.9 (4-cyl, 250 hp)
someone mentioned why didn't Ford include the Subi in the compo, cause it has AWD. Well Fusion beats it according to edmunds. As always. Honda comes out near the top, what's new? Either Honda is that good or these Mags have some heavy vested interest in Honda.

backy · February 2007

The other thing to consider is that the Alabama plant has a fixed capacity. At first, all it produced was the Sonata. Now it builds the Sonata and the new Santa Fe. Maybe what is happening is that Hyundai has made a decision to improve profit-per-vehicle even if that means cutting volume on the Sonata and other cars. The average selling price of a Santa Fe is higher than that of a Sonata--more profit in the Santa Fe maybe? Also note how Hyundai has cut way back on rebates across its lineup since last year. No more $3000 in rebates on the Sonata, and rebates on the Santa Fe, Elantra, Accent, etc. are also down from recent levels.

I remember many posts in various discussions, including this one, noting how Hyundai should cut sales to fleets and raise its prices. Now that they're doing that, they get criticized for doing it.

Anyone notice that Honda is propping up Accord sales with large manufacturer-to-dealer rebates and subsidized lease deals? Since the Accord is such a great mid-sized car, why do they need to do that?

thegraduate · February 2007

Yes, ABS can help avoid an accident. I'll probably want it in my next car, years from now (may not have a choice, LOL) but I don't think it's as important in avoiding accidents as traction and stability control.

I wouldn't pay ten cents for traction control in an accident avoidance maneuver. Stability control is different, though...

You probably don't have to deal with snow/ice very often in Birmingham

Sadly, we are on out longest streak without measurable snow (0.1 inches or greater) in recorded history (since the late 1880s). We haven't seen snow around here since January 2000.

Send us some please! Snow missed us to the north yesterday, and forecasts are putting snow in Montgomery (south) Saturday. I'm frustrated!

w9cw · February 2007

germancarfan1 and meateater are well-know Hyundai haters on this board.

Yes, Hyundai still sells the Tiburon, in fact, the 2007 is a new generation, albeit a redesign, not entirely new.

Hyundai's appeal is not only low pricing, but quality at a low price, exactly analogous to the initial Honda and Toyota marketing and pricing strategy in the USA.

I'm a Honda, SAAB, and Hyundai owner, and the new 2006 Hyundai I bought for my wife for Christmas 2005 has had absolutely no warranty claims, or any problems whatsoever since purchase. In fact, it's the first new car I've ever purchased that was, and still is, totally glitch free in every respect. The same can't be said for our Honda. It had 3 warranty claims within the first 9 months, including replacement of the ECU.

jimmy81 · February 2007

Hyundai's "quality" is nowhere near that of Honda's. Better than before, but Hyundai's still dealing with many issues that aren't reflected in these JD Power type inital quality survey gimmicks.

4-5 years down the line is what I'm most concerned with. My brother's Elantra is what he bought it as - cheap transportation - but the comparison to Honda, as he points out, is a major stretch. Its 3 years old and doing OK, but has numerous fit and finish and noise issues.

But he bought the car because it was cheap but decent. I agree that's the sector Hyundai fills.

goodegg · February 2007

Hyundai's appeal is low pricing. Obviously that's not enough appeal. They should change the name of the car. Hyundai is a quirky name....quirky cars too.

I thought I was the only one proposing a name change for Hyundai. It would make sense to me since 'what's in a name?' is huge for marketing purposes. And Hyundai is an odd name.

germancarfan1 · February 2007

So someone who merely pastes Hyundai sales figures for Jan 07 (which happen to be down) is considered a "Hyundai hater?" Had I posted Honda sales figures (which are coincidently up), would I be a "honda lover?"

backy · February 2007

When you think about it, names like Toyota (is it a toy or a real car?), Honda (wasn't that a movie?), Nissan (rhymes with a rather crude phrase), Suzuki ('nuff said), Kia (is it a car company or is this a martial arts thing?), Mitsubishi (we need more syllables!!), Audi (not an innie), Scion (what the heck is THAT, and can you pronounce it correctly?), and many others are "odd" also. From a myopic perspective anyway.

joe97 · February 2007

"Had I posted Honda sales figures (which are coincidently up)"

Where do you see Honda sales being up? We went over this, it's called DSR, there was an extra day of selling.

http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1000?mid=2007020140906&mime=asc

I see -1.7%, tell me if you see something different.

joe97 · February 2007

"So someone who merely pastes Hyundai sales figures for Jan 07 (which happen to be down) is considered a "Hyundai hater?""

Beacuse time after time, you have isolated your negativities on Hyundai and posted one-sided comments. You could have also posted sales figures from other manuf., such as GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, etc to show the comparison, instead of isolating one automaker. If my memory serves correct, January was a bad month for most automakers in the US.

Also, you have always included Kia with Hyundai to show their inferiority. There are reasons why you didn't include Kia in your original post, just like the same reasons you didn't post Hyundai's went they were up or had something that should be praised and contributed in the industry.

Karen_S · February 2007

We all have our preferences and that's not a crime, so let's keep the comments about the cars and not the people.

goodegg · February 2007

I guess, but there isn't another word or name in the English language that begins with a 'Hyun' combination of syllables. I think it hinders acceptance of their products.

mz6greyghost · February 2007

I think it hinders acceptance of their products.

I think that's ludicrous.

I bet that when people first saw the words Honda, Toyota, Datsun, Mitsubishi, etc., they may have thought it strange at first, but it was their products that made them accepted, and their names aren't so strange anymore, aren't they?

Hyundai (and Kia) can be named whatever they want. It's their products that'll either help or hurt their acceptance.

pat · February 2007

The names are what they are and there's really nothing to be gained by arguing about whether they are or are not what they should be.

Let's get back to the actual features and attributes of the vehicles - whatever they are named - and move on.

baggs32 · February 2007

What do you think about this line of discussion grad? Want to go back to discussing engines now? :P

lilengineerboy · February 2007

Lets go back to the driving dynamics of fwd cars with front weight bias...
In performance driving with a FWD car, typically its a matter of aiming the front wheels where you want the car to go and pushing the gas. A limited slip (a real one, like a Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec-V or an Integra Type-R) allows the driver to get on the power sooner, helping corner exit speeds. Traction control just cuts power to the wheels which will lower corner exit speeds.
Corner entry on a front wheel drive car typically involves hard braking for weight transfer, occasionally trail braking to help rotation. It is reasonably easy to achieve oversteer in a FWD car, either by trail braking or jumping off the gas in mid-corner.
I think most of the Stability Controls will do everything they can to eliminate oversteer while reducing power at the same time. I think plowing (understeering) off the road (slowly) is how they see safety.
I am very curious to see how these systems adapt in snow and ice, in addition to a performance driving environment.

swhitehorn · February 2007

I've read enough propaganda from Car & Friver to last me a lifetime. They always pick the Honda Accord as tops amongst midsize sedans and seldom get it right. There are better midsizers out there. Witness Consumer Reports unbiased selection of the Nissan Altima as the new king of the road in midsize sedans. Quite simply, Nissan has the most efficient non hybrid 4 cylinder powertrain in the industry. Only Toyota has a more efficient 6 cyinder. However, Nissan wins the best ride/handing compromise for both the 4 cylinder & 6 cylinder power plants. This new benchmark Altima also has better steering & brake feel than the others. The one thing that stood out in the Car & Drver test was exterior styling. They rated the Accord & Altima as even. Not in your wildest Honda dreams! The current Accord has one of the most boring designs in all of automobiledom. Additionally, C & D stated the Altima had epa estimates of 23/29, when it is acutally 26/34. Evidently, C & D was using the '02-06 Altima epa estimates. One other item they misquoted was the cargo space. The '07 Altima does NOt have 17.9 cu ft, but 15.3 cu ft. The bottom line is that Car & Driver failed to get even the car manufacturer sepcifications right, much less the more subjective criterion, i.e. exterior styling.

Steve

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