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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Comments
It's not sad, it's very good. Interestingly, that's exactly what Hyundai did with the '06 Sonata, and then some.
Have you driven the Accord back-to-back on the same roads vs. the '06 Sonata? It's an enlightening experience. I agree with your assessment that the Sonata is the "underdog" today, because it has to overcome a large bias in favor of Honda and Toyota. And people who have that bias will go buy an Accord or Camry and never even look at a Sonata. That's too bad for them, though. Every review I've seen of the '06 Sonata has said it's worth a look--even the relatively negative Healy review said that.
One thing about crash tests--a lot of buyers don't pay much attention to them. Remember the poor side impact crash test on the latest Camry, when it first came out? That didn't stop the Camry from being the top-selling car in the U.S. But being the underdog, the Sonata will be expected to ace the crash tests, be tops in reliability (something an all-new design rarely is, even for Honda and Toyota), and generally walk on water. It's tough being the underdog.
just drive one
If the H badge on the hyundai was Honda you would be praising Hyundai. Stop being brainwashed. Next you will tell me the civic is the best compact car when clearly the Mazda 3 is head and above the best in its segment.
just drive the Sonata then you will see
Why do you have to lie to make the Sonata look better?
anonymousposts- People who want Accords and Camrys will buy Accords and Camrys and barely give the Sonata a sideways glance
Agree with you on that, i know a lot of loyal Camry and Accord buyers that dont even look at the Sonata.
The Hyundai Sonata is far from leading, it's still considered an underdog like anonymousposts said.
This topic should be more about car comparisons then personal attacks, but there are a few of you proud accord, camry loyalists who think that they are the best and smartest owners out there.
Ctalk i just get a email back from one of the car and driver editors who in his opinion believes the sonata could possibly have a chance to crack top 10 car of the year, something that would be laughable given any past years or any cars hyundai has to offer.
I guess until something like that happens, you will think the accord or camry are the greatest cars in the world.
Like i said fine cars, but if you could get a similiar car a couple grand cheaper, its a no brainer.
and i'm sorry about that #1 competitor crap
Honda Accord is the sonatas #1 competitor now
I do not think the Accord and Camry are the greatest cars in the world they are no where from perfect they have their problems for Camry it is its bland personality, for the Accord it is its styling...
I did test drive the Sonata infact my friend works at the dealer and would have gave me a great discount on the Sonata but i felt the Accord was a better fit for me because it has a sportier interior, better steering, firmer suspension and strong reputation. But the Sonata is great, it's very powerful, nice steering (better then Camry's numb feel), and nice supsension. It's a huge improvement over the previous model.
But i still think the Accord is leading (and the Camry is in sales). Hyundai has a great chance at leading its just like i said before if the Sonata is priced the same way as Honda people will most likely buy Honda. Hyundai still needs a couple years to take its image of 'Price advantage' off or it will never be as strong as Honda and Toyota are today.
I'm sorry if i came a little to hard on you, I am very open minded compared to my friends some of them dont even consider Honda because its not as reliable as Toyota :P. The Sonata is a well rounded vehicle, but the Accord was more to my taste and needs.
The Mazda3 overall is a better car than the current Civic. However, my husband can't drive the Mazda so we would still have to buy the Civic.
"Actually the Sonata is the current benchmark in midsize class.
Honda and Toyota have a lot of catching up to do to barely match the overall performance and refinement.
The Sonata has 6,200 body welds, about TWO THOUSAND more than the Camry's(4,300).
How about paint? Matching the quality of the 18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat is simply out of the question. They don't have the Rho-dip facility. Only one other plant in N. America has one.
There are other stuff left out in the consumer brochures like the PWM-controlled enigne cooling fan because it's too technical.
It's a stepless speed control.
You're not gonna hear the fan kicking in like the Camcords even if you stick your ear close to the grille of the Sonata. The fan itself is quieter and has higher CFM spec than the Camry's.
Simply put, the current Accord and Camry is a generation behind the Sonata in NVH performance and body integrity.
Also the factory is a benchmark, it's the future of auto plants. No fork-lift trucks are there. Material and parts handling is completely automated.
The plant requires only 2,000 workers for 300,000 annual production.
Honda's Alabama plant needs 4000 for their 300,000 max. output. Two thousand more people...think about that.
http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/060502.html
"One benefit to the Montgomery operation is the fact that the Sonata has been in production in Korea since September, 2004. Not only has this afforded the Hyundai America people an opportunity to become familiar with the process (the processes and equipment used in the two plants are common), but Krafcek observes that generally, the six months before a vehicle is launched is the time during which there is a flurry of issues that arise and need to be addressed and that the number of these issues then diminishes in the months after launch. Consequently, he maintains, the six months of production in Korea will help the people in Montgomery achieve a stable operation."
If you're considering Sonata, don't worry about the quality.
They are aiming for an IQS score of 80 PP100 for 2006 Sonata. Good enough to put it in top 3 in premium midsze category, I think. "
They are the same company road and track and car and driver that is, but have two different way of explaining this car. There are also a couple of statements that say in the terms of " something the accord and camry could not achieve" . Warm up to hear alot of those statements
Positive review
Resale value compared to MSRP will be lower on the Sonata than the Acord. However, resale compared to actual purchase price will be close (Sonata may even come out ahead). I plan to keep the car at least 6 years.
Does the Acord have heated seats, homelink mirror, auto climate control, CD & cassette, heated out side mirrors and many other features? I don't know, am not being smarta**. But feature for feature, the '05 GLS SV stacks up great against any non-premium midsize (probably does well against many of the premiums also). Leather seats & sunroofs don't excite me, but I could have had both for about $1400 additional.
$4 to $5,00 less for the Hyundai vs Honda. I didn't have to think too hard. (Don't judge the '05 Sonata by the GL or even the GLS.) 0 to 60 doesn't turn me on, as long as the car has adequate power. I mean what's the difference between 8.7 and 7.9 seconds in regular driving? I don't know Honda's rating but would guess it's no faster than 7.9.
* Why did you make the control layout on the center stack so darn complex?
* Why can't you equip the driver's seat of a car that list for over $23,000 with something better than a simple up/down adjustment for the seat bottom?
* When are you going to ditch the mouse-fur cloth interior of the Accord EX with something a little classier, and more befitting its price?
* Why, after seven generations of Accord, haven't you figured out how to make a good-handling car that doesn't make you feel every little imperfection on the roadway?
* Why can't you back up your reputation for quality with a warranty that lasts more than 3 years, like almost all of your competitors do?
As for the future, don't forget that Hyundai still has some tricks up its sleeve waiting in the wings with the Sonata, e.g. the adaptive rear suspension and the 3.8L V6 from the Azera. And shortly after the new Accord comes out for '08, the Sonata will be due for its mid-life refresh. Recall what Hyundai did with the '02 Sonata: almost a complete restyle, engine upgrades, updated interior.
It has to walk on water?? second coming of jesus?? unlike the Honda Accord it is trying. Offering more safety features, longer warranty, benchmarking cars like audi and lexus for superior craftmanship and NVH.
What has Accord done for you or any of its loyal fans lately?? i don't think adding an i to VTECH is called fan pleasing in my books. It has a halfdone exterior design makeup also.
Honda needs the TSX to be the accord , and then i will gladly admit it is a better car. But until then, a solid yet untrying car like the accord, cannot fool a customer like me.
and just why your husband can't drive the mazda3???
To Choe13: What are you talking about? Frankly to convince the many Accord and Camry loyalists to switch it does have be the second coming of christ. Hyundai is the underdog. It is seen as the lower cost inferior alternative. Being able to compete well or even have a slight advantage against 3 year old designs from honda and toyota just does not cut it. It had to be worlds away from the accord and camry and be able to compete with their upcoming redesigns.
I was just trying to back up the "lowley" '05 Sonata that he was ragging on. The '05's 2.7L engine is rated at 8.7 seconds, 0 to 60. It's plenty fast enough for when I have to pull into traffic or merge onto a highway.
I first test drove an '05 in February and a friend was with me. We got on a highway and were doing 70+ in no time. Slowed down to 50 and then punched it about half throttle. Bang, back over 70 real quick. Friend has a V-8 Merc Mountaineer and couldn't believe the punch the Sonata has.
While the '06 has improved features over the '05, I'm still very happy with the '05. With the $1500 rebate I got and dealer willingness to discount, I saved about $4K compared to a similar '06. (Plus, I like the '05styling better. But, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.)
No matter how you slice it, Hyundai Sonata has come a long way in just a few years and keeps getting better.
Hyundai used to make crappy cars, just like Honda did. A few model years from now I think we'll see Hyundai resale jump just like Honda's did when they went from crappy to good. On the used car market there is , naturally, a time lag from the introduction of a model until a significant number of the models are sold as used cars.
I already did acknowledge that the legions of Accord and Camry loyalists probably won't even look at a Hyundai. But there's lots more buyers, including people who own other mid-sized cars, most of which without a doubt pale in comparison to the '06 Sonata. There's also the people looking to move up from a smaller car--like the 500,000 people who have purchased Elantras in the past few years. Hyundai has one of the highest brand loyalties around--no doubt helped by the "loyalty rebates" they offer. Bottom line is, Hyundai doesn't have to draw from the Accord and Camry loyalists to be successful with the Sonata. The first-year sales projections are only 150,000. They aren't trying to leapfrog the Accord and Camry sales numbers overnight.
An 8-way power seat is nice to have but hardly a necessity. I get along just find in our Si with no power seat.
I didn't see anything wrong with the cloth in the Accord EX. In fact, I have yet to hear anyone complain about the quality of the cloth in the Accord. I have seen 10-13 year old Accords with 200,000 miles without a rip or tear in the seat.
If you don't like the Accord's ride then you don't need an Accord. My Accord handles road imperfections just fine IMO. The Mazda6 handles great but one of it's downfalls is a firm ride on the highway. BMW's aren't exactly known for being quiet or cushy but they are considered the benchmark by which all sedans are measured.
The best warranty is one that you don't need. Why should Honda offer a longer warranty when the don't need to? Honda has a track record for standing behind their product if there is a widespread problem. Hyundai's bumper-to-bumper is only 2 years longer and is only good for the first owner IIRC. If Hyundai's are the be all end all why is there a mileage limit at all on their warranty? Why not cover the entire car for 10 years/120,000 miles? I can buy an extended warranty for my Accord and still be out less money with that than I would be with the normal depreciation on the Hyundai.
"The Sonata is at best a slight improvement over its competition."
So you even acknowledge this yet you still say its behind the accord and camry. I never said the sonata is head above better but slightly like you said.
Also you keep mentioning this second coming to christ nonsense, when clearly if you didn't notice 05 hyunda sonata (no offense to any owners) was nothing optimistic to expect for the 06 sonata. It has made HUMONGOUS strides, maybe in all of auto history( G35, M45) are probably some other exmaples.
You talk about 07 camry, while yes i finally can say the camry will be stylish looking, the wheels still look awfully small and they got to do a better job to make it look like it has bigger tires than that.
We can also affirm camry being camry , it will lack sporty appeal , which is ok since some people just want family cars, though the Sonata and Accord do a little extra to add some sportyness.
Lastly do you think hyundai is going to sit back while the accord and camry upgrade?? just wait for xenon lights, 5 speed auto tranny with shiftronic for the V4, enhance design cues, horsepower increases, and their unique suspension system add on to make it mimic its handling close to a rear wheel drive car.
It will be a full fledge midsize car war but i'm glad even a accord and camry critique like yourself can admit at the current time
"The Sonata is at best a slight improvement over its competition."
I wasn't referring to the Sonata's optional (standard on LX) 8-way power seat. I was referring to the 8-way seat that is standard on ALL Sonatas, even the base GL. (Actually, that kind of seat is standard even on the low-buck Accent.) The dual-mode height adjuster on the Sonata makes it possible to adjust the seat cushion exactly as I like it for comfort. To me, this is a HUGE feature and a major advantage of the Sonata over the Accord. For a company (Honda) that is supposedly so great about ergonomics, the control layout and lack of seat adjustments on the Accord don't say much to me about Honda's superiority here, and in fact I see Hyundai being superior in that area. That is a major reason I bought an Elantra in '00 instead of a Civic.
I wasn't complaining about the durability of the Accord's fabric; for all I know it will wear like iron. But you commented on the look of the Sonata's fabric; I was noting that the Accord's is no better and IMO actually looks worse.
I've driven both the Accord and Mazda6 and to me the Mazda6 has the superior ride on the highway, as bumps are more muted than on the Accord. I also found the Sonata much superior to the Accord in this area. What was your impression of the Accord vs. Sonata here? This is also a biggie for me because I drive on pot-holed roads in the Midwest, so smooth ride is more important than the ability to carve mountain canyon roads. But you are right--if I don't like the Accord's ride, I don't have to buy one. And I won't.
Re warranty, personally I think the fact that the Sonata's bumper-to-bumper warranty is 67% longer than that of the Accord (and the powertrain warranty more than three times longer) is significant. We know that Accords do fail sometimes. I think you know why there is a mileage limit on Hyundai's warranty--an unlimited mileage warranty would be very expensive to support. Re extended warranties on the Accord--why would you want to buy one? The best warranty is the one you don't need, right? And Honda stands behind their products if (or when) there is a problem, right? But interestingly, Honda does sell extended warranties for the Accord. But then, so does Hyundai for its cars--so people who want a 10/100 bumper-to-bumper, transferrable warranty can have that. How long is the Honda extended warranty? Is it 10 years? I had this idea it was only 7 years.
"As for the 07 camry lacking sport appeal, yes the current camry's SE trim failed spectacularly." How is that the case? It posts better objective numbers than Accord EX V6s, especially braking. Im just not sure in which ways it failed.
~alpha
The Camry SE V6 is only better then the EX V6 in braking performance. Many Sites (Edmunds, Car and Driver, Motortrend) have praised the Accord for having excellent steering and suspension (for having the most 'BMW like ride'). The SE V6 has only been praised for its quite cabin ride, powerful V6 and braking performance and has actually been criticized for having a not very entertaining drive. I admit the Accord is also not very entertaining to drive but is still more fun to drive then Camry (Even on its SE model). The Camry SE V6 should not be comparable to the Accord EX V6, it should be comparable to the Mazda 6. What i find sad is the EX V6 has a more entertaining drive (tighter suspension, better steering) then the SE V6 even when it is not a sport model. I find that the SE trim is more about cosmetics than actual performance.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=106434/pageId=64745
All I can say is--WOW! I sure didn't expect to see a result like that so soon!
I know there will be some sour grapes about how this comparo was unfair because both the Accord and Camry were 2005 4cyl models vs a 2006 Sonata V6 GLS model, but remember the premise--the best equipped version of that model for a sticker of $22,000. It can't get more fair than that. The content and value equation are heavily in Hyundai's favor with a car that not only competes, but outperforms on a dollar for dollar basis. Go Hyundai!
Plus, the new lambda 3.3 is no worse than camry V6, and not much behind the Honda VTEC 3.0. Even if it was a comparo among V6 models, I'm sure Hyundai would have done admirably, probably taking the second place behinf Accord.
I may have found a mistake, under the Specifications and Performance it says the Sonata V6 goes from 0-60 in 9.5 seconds and the Accord inline 4 in 8.2. That cant be true. But if you read about the Sonata edmunds says it goes from 0-60 in 8.2, they must have switched the numbers around :confuse: .
I was actually disappointed that it didn't battle the V6 camry and accord, because HONESTLY it would have still won. Try to do the scores yourself, and you will see hyundai would still win. It is incredible also that even the V6 of hyundais is cheaper than the 4 cylender of either Camry or Accord. And while not only being outpriced those cars are being outdesigned and outclassed, its a serious no brainer which car a rational consumer would pick.
Edmunds did a great job, and they always come out first for these kind of things. We should see what other car mags have to say, but Edmunds seriously hit the buttons talking about overall design, materials, even talking about little stiching to prove quality.
Hyundai needs to forget about "it" needs to do something to uprgrade for later so lets wait bs, and add a 5 speed auto onto their 4 cylinder soon, to make their assault on the accord and camry that much more complete.
Even with the inline 4 the Accord has better overall handling even edmunds agrees "We all agreed that both on the road and at the track, the Accord felt the sportiest, but the Sonata wasn't far behind." Makes you wonder how the V6 Accord would do against the V6 Sonata. If you look at Editors Evaluation with the inline 4 the Accord is first in transmission, braking, suspension, steering and is pretty damn close in engine performance. Where the Accord falls short is feature content to Sonata.
The Sonata is a great vehicle but is not the best sedan in the market. I admit the Sonata has more bang for the buck than the Accord and Camry but the Sonata should have been able to beat the LX-G in not only # features but handling. The Accord's 3 year old design still has many advantages over the Sonata. If it wants to be named 'best family sedan' it should be first in every category of editor's evaluations (especially against an inline 4.)
No, you got it backward. For FWD cars with transverse mounted engines and 6:4 weight distribution, having a bigger engine makes the car nose-heavy, which negatively affects the handling. (drive Mazda6 i and s and tell me which one handles better) I don't see any reason to expect V6 Accord to handle better than an I4 equiped one, with the possible exception of the V6 EX manual coupe which seems to get some suspension revision.
I do agree that Accord V6 would probably win over the Sonata V6 for the other reasons you mentioned though. But again, for the price differential, it better too. It's just like some people saying VW Jetta's so much better than the Japanese competitors "in its class" such as Corolla and Civic. Yeah sure, in its class where it costs 20% more than all of the competition. To me, that's a moot point since nobody cross-shops cars based on the arbitrary class distinction that magazines come up with.
Not for anything, but at Hyundais extremely well executed consumer comparison event in Philly, the stability controlled Sonata LX was much easier to manuever through the pylons than was the Accord EX V6, which slipped and slid around the cones with notable fishtailing. I know I'm not a pro, and maybe for the pros the Accord's slip angles are better-- but for most folks, the Sonata was reassuring.
Ctalk, one thing you should consider is that its universally stated that the Accord EX 4 is a BETTER handler than the EX V6, on account of more neutral weight balance (less over the nose reduces front end plow). The V6 DOESNT improve the Accords handling. Now, given that, the same goes for the FWD Sonata, whose V6 outweighs the 4. I wonder how much better a handler, if at all, the Accord EX 4 would be if the Sonata were tested in its version offering a better weight balance????????
Overall, I thought this was one of Edmunds most impressive comparison tests, aside from their terrible Acceleration numbers. However, I'd look to Car and Driver's Street Start and Passing tests, which seem to be more consistent. Even Consumer Reports has published 0-60 figures (for the Camry and Accord I4s) that are 6 and 5 tenths quicker than what Edmunds.com showed, for example (Putting the Camry at 9.7 seconds and Accord at 9 flat). Kinda makes me wonder exactly how Edmunds.com does their acceleration testing? Maybe they dont use math to neutralize for effects of the enviornment.
Should also be interesting in 7 months from now when the totally redesigned Camry debuts, and the Accord receives some major upgrades.
~alpha
But consider this. The evaluation system used by Edmunds includes a weighting for each of the different categories considered. Price is weighted 20%. Presumably, this weighting reflects Edmunds' estimate of the relative importance of price to consumers. When Edmunds decided to compare the best version costing less than $22K, they gave the Sonata a distinct advantage in 2 categories worth a total of 40% of the final score:
Features - Since the base price of the Sonata is lower than the Accord and Camry, Edmunds got to go on shopping spree for bells and whistles on the Sonata, leaving the Accord and Camry out of the running.
Performance - Expecting the Accord and Camry to make up for a 75hp deficit is just plain ludicrous
In my opinion, a more fair and unbiased approach would have been to compare equally equipped models (as close as feature availability allows), and let the difference in price to be reflected in the price category alone.
Interestingly, if you ignore the Features and Performance categories of this evaluation, the Personal, Recommended and Evaluation Score categories were really tight between the Accord and Sonata. Which means that in a fair fight, the Sonata would have given the Accord a really good run for its... well... money. It's too bad that Edmunds stacked the cards so heavily in favour of the Sonata that it damaged the credibility of this review. In the end, I guess Edmunds got their point across, but they manipulated their own system to make a tight race look like a landslide.
The Sonata clearly kicked booty, especially considering everything you get for the price.
Rear drum brakes on an Accord? Is that even legal in this day and age? :P
I sincerely believe that the 2006 Sonata is the best car in its class.
~alpha
I am sure that Edmund's has put a lot of thought into the various weightings and percentages allowed for each category. The various algorithms that they would have had to use are surely time-tested and tweaked periodically to improve their results. (Hey, I work in a major university and I see this type of survey/testing all the time).
The method that Edmund's uses is a valid test. If we were to disregard their methodology and just cherry-pick the data points we want, we open ourselves to absurd comparisons, such as a Ford Mustang GT vs a McClaren F1 vs a Ferrari vs a Mazda Miata. I am sure that we could option them to nearly similar equipment levels except for engines, etc, but do we have a valid comparison set? No.
So until Honda and Toyota decide to include the same type of equipment as is found on the Sonata and also lower their prices, this current methodology is as valid as it gets.
Demerits were issued for the stereo's odd controls (we can't count how many times we turned up the fan speed when we meant to pump up the volume)...
Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks the Accord's center-stack controls are more complex than the Sonata's.
I love the subtitle about "Hell freezing over". That's exactly what many people said about Hyundai a couple of years ago--it would be a cold day in that place when a Hyundai was the equal of or--dare we say--superior to a Honda or Toyota. Get your coats--that day is here, folks.
I believe the "Sonata effect" is starting to happen already. From what I understand, the refreshed 2006 Accord will offer stability control (albeit only on the V6-equipped models).
Hyunda Sonata GLS V6 Honda Accord LX Toyota Camry LE
Personal Rating (10% of score) 75% 89% 50%
Recommended Rating (10% of score) 88% 75% 63%
Evaluation Score (20% of score) 88% 87% 82%
Feature Content (20% of score) 80% 33% 47%
Performance (20% of score) 99% 72% 56%
Price (20% of score) 100% 98% 96%
Total Score 89.7% 74.4% 67.5%
Final Ranking 1
Lets just say V6 accord was into play. And lets leave what the hyundai scores would be and add what Accord could get more. recommended would jump to 90 percent. Features 75 percent(no way it beats hyundai still), performance 100, price 70(generous) . lets add it up . Accord would be 85 percent still compared to 89.7 still by hyundai. You could say lets drop at least 9 percent from hyundais performance because it would comparing to the accord, but then we could say lets drop 5 more percent from the pricing since a 26 grand accord comapred to a 21 grand sonata is almost 5 grand cheaper. It would be a tight comparison, but the price would be the kicker regardless that hyundai would beat the accord.
I would seriously welcome a v6 fully loaded comparison of all three cars and even a 2007 comparison test scores, but the truth is the accord and camry will not lower their prices , actually toyota has said that they will raise the price of all their cars(pretty dumb mistake) which will always hamper the ability for them to edge out the sonata. The sonata will be competitive for a while, unless the camcord drastically change which i doubt they will because they are cheap as heck