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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    That Accord also makes more power than that 4-speed Aura, doesn't it?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    that's funny - own an 03 3.5SE, now with 70k or so, it has never been in the shop or had any recall notifications on anything. Bulletproof (at least, thus far)as have my previous two Altimas a '98 and 01. Would be interested on details on these supposed recalls (searching the NHTSA site doesn't show any), maybe I missed something. Does go to show you, that results can differ car to car.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Ridiculous!

    Here are those same results, but instead of alphabetical by make, I have sorted them with the "most reliable" brands on top:

    HYUNDAI 14.87%
    MITSUBISHI 16.80%
    KIA 17.39%
    DAEWOO 19.18%
    MAZDA 21.20%
    ISUZU 21.73%
    SUBARU 21.83%
    SUZUKI 22.35%
    LAND ROVER 22.89%
    PLYMOUTH 22.99%
    EAGLE 23.06%
    TOYOTA 24.05%
    VOLKSWAGEN 24.29%
    HONDA 25.07%
    CHEVROLET 25.34%
    FORD 26.11%
    MERCURY 26.11%
    OLDSMOBILE 26.20%
    DODGE 26.47%
    BUICK 26.89%
    PONTIAC 27.45%
    JEEP 27.74%
    CHRYSLER 28.28%
    GMC 28.69%
    NISSAN 29.37%
    AUDI 30.78%
    SATURN 31.11%
    LINCOLN 32.59%
    ACURA 33.29%
    MERCEDES BENZ 36.23%
    BMW 36.79%
    INFINITI 36.93%
    SAAB 37.23%
    LEXUS 39.25%
    CADILLAC 40.20%
    PORSCHE 41.48%
    VOLVO 42.76%
    JAGUAR 57.84%

    I have a lot of problems with that site. For one, it is sponsored by a company which sells aftermarket warranties! Conflict of interests, anyone? Further, it doesn't even give ANY information as to how those results were obtained. Lexus, Acura and Infiniti near the bottom? Land Rover and Volkswagen above average? And when was the last time anyone saw a an Eagle???

    Does anyone have a ranking of reliability that is actually a good source of info? By this, I mean a source that is willing to share how they collected their data and show that the principles of market research are adhered to, so that the info is statistically valid and projectable? PLUS, where the data can realistically be used to estimate problems down the road? (see below)

    Consumer Reports... Besides the inadequacy of their methodology (only people with strong opinions one way or the other are likely to respond to their surveys), they treat all reported problems equally, whether it is a radio button falling off or a transmission falling out. I could stand the weird noises and minor flaws in my last Ford (a 2004 model), but not the tranny issues and the occasional struggling to start.

    JD Power... They look at "Initial Quality" - I want to know about 5-7 years down the road, and beyond. I don't think it is accurate to project long-term reliability off of initial quality rankings, as people often do.

    So far, the only reliability info I have seen which I tend to agree with (that I can think of right now) is the MSN Autos reliabilty ratings; see how MSN Autos' Reliability Ratings are determined. In my opinion, they have good methods of data collection, and the data is analyzed well, plus the "problem areas" are specified if you look up a particular model. This is useful if you want to look at the reliability history of a specific make and model. From my past experience with several cars, the results are quite accurate. UNFORTUNATELY, I can't find where they have done a current ranking of car manufacturers overall...
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    They *might* share an engine block or a few accessories but that's it. Different platform, different time, different Ford. I understand that skeptics like you don't want to believe that Ford has changed but the data says otherwise.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    While the Accord in the family is getting up there in age and miles (almost 140k), its not yet our age/mileage leader (the Galant the Contour, and the Caravan all had it beat). It is, however, the record holder for most times on a hook, and most times leaving driver stranded (dead batteries and flat tires don't count, either).
    Its a fine car, build quality was above average (although 6 trips to the dealer couldn't fix the rear door handle so it worked correctly, the AC smelled, and the paint didn't last very long), dealer service is terrible and it had some interesting designs that made its services more costly than other vehicles (namely the front brakes, oh and the rubber band holding the engine together).
    Its a car. Its been fine. I just haven't found it to be made from holiness or anything.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Would be interested on details on these supposed recalls (searching the NHTSA site doesn't show any), maybe I missed something.

    I quickly checked the site myself, and found 5 that pertained to the Altima:

    NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number : 06V242000
    03V084000
    03V251000
    06E023000
    06E064000
    Yes, her car has the 2.5L.

    I have to check on the other repairs that were done, since I don't remember offhand what exactly they were.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    I know, I was only nervous because the Altima is their first import, and if it turns out to be only equal to, or becomes worse than, their previous American cars... They'd probably never strongly consider an import again, and all the relatives would keep putting Imports down (for the record, they live in rural North Carolina, a stronghold for domestics). I would have preferred for their first import to be a Honda or Subaru.

    So far it's been OK, it had to go right back to the dealer after purchase for an issue with the brake-shift interlock on the Auto tranny... I think she has around 15 or 20k on it now. We'll see how it holds up.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    It sure does. The good side is that the 3.5 OHV gives you more HP than the four cylinder Accord, if going model to model by price. The Aura XR has the 3.6 DOHC and has 6 count'em 6 speeds. That one is the equal to the Honda V6 with the 5 sp. All four seem like good car choices in their own way. -Loren
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    A Taurus that debuted in the 2000MY was probably designed from 1995 to 1999. Even though the car was a 2000 model (first year if I'm not mistaken) it is basically a 12 year old design when you think about it.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "That Accord also makes more power than that 4-speed Aura, doesn't it? "

    Of course it does, its a DOHC design and Hondas always have good specific output. My point was the 4 speed in the Aura doesnt hinder its mileage when compared to the much lighter Accord V6 with its smaller displacement engine. I'm not sure how your statement disproves my point.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    a) you never showed us where you got this 80% customer retention figure from
    b) The Accord is ONE car brand when I was talking about GM's overall retention rate. Sure the Accord may be higher, but GM has good retention overall.
    c) It's difficult to argue that overall GM's vehicles are unreliable and more problematic than imports when they lead the industry in return customers.
    d)the survey I was talking about was based on much more recent sales data than the link you provided.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    in case you didnt know JD Power does a 3 year dependability study as well and several american brands do well and some place above Nissan if I'm not mistaken. You arent going to find reliability studies covering 5-7 years of ownership because many people dont even keep their cars that long.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Check back with me in 30 years and I'll give the Fusion some consideration if there's been good reports"

    Well that more or less sums up your position on Fords. You arent going to consider one regardless of reliability data. I understand you got burned and I can understand not wanting anything but Toyotas but as others have said the data indicates Fords are pretty reliable, as are most cars these days. Do you remove all domestics from consideration or just all Ford products? Also, would you drive a Volvo?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Actually real world gas mileage is vastly different than EPA gas mileage. My take the Aura will get significantly less mileage in real world situations. But that wouldn't be the reason I never buy an Aura. And when I need a family type car, the Honda is at the top of the list automatically.
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    Of course it does, its a DOHC design and Hondas always have good specific output.

    The Honda V6 in the Accord is a SOHC design. Honda efficiency at extracting the most out of an engine.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    That's a great link. Thanks.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    I understand you got burned and I can understand not wanting anything but Toyotas but as others have said the data indicates Fords are pretty reliable, as are most cars these days. Do you remove all domestics from consideration or just all Ford products? Also, would you drive a Volvo?

    Actually I find Toyota rather boring - too "soft". The Lexus IS is a nice car though, and the entire Lexus line is looking really good with the L-Finesse designs. Honda/Acura is for good overall reliability/value/etc, though Acura is getting to be a bit pricey these days.

    I would buy a domestic in a heartbeat if I had cash to blow - a Corvette Z06 in Lemans Blue! :shades:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    How about posting a torque curve for that motor. I'm interested in how much torque it produces at 2500 rpm, e.g., to compare with other motors.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Wish them luck with their Altima. My mother, after owning a '90 and '99 Taurus, traded for a '03 Nissan Altima. It's had 6 recalls, and over $800 worth of "non-warranty" work, with only 32K miles. Needless to say, she hates it, and wishes she had her Taurus back.
    and then later,
    So far it's been OK, it had to go right back to the dealer after purchase for an issue with the brake-shift interlock on the Auto tranny... I think she has around 15 or 20k on it now. We'll see how it holds up.

    now you really got me confused, at first you talk about your Altima with 6 recalls (which I can't find), and $800 spent on something in 32k, and then you talk about a shift interlock and 'so far it's been OK'.

    Which is it?

    The Altima, BTW, is anything but an import.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Why is it ridiculous? The data is simply based on the number of problems per vehicle. This does have the weakness that all problems are treated as equal. If you go to their UK data, they give a ranking based on cost and number of problems.

    MSN data is useful too, but as you indicate they do not give you any sort of summary.

    I do wonder if the warranty direct data is only counting problems that are not covered by manufacturer's warranty...because the top three all have longer warranty than is typical.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    You are confused!

    I wasn't the one talking about the 6 recalls, that was someone else.

    Re-read my post. The top part (in quotes, and bold) was a quote from the poster I was replying to. The lower quote was part of my response.

    The original poster was relating the problems with his Mother's Altima to me, and I was stating that so far, my Mother-in-law's Altima has been OK with that one exception.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Here THIS LINKshould help ya! JD Powers long term data, if you dig for it, can be unearthed on the Edmund's site -- thanks Ed!
    -Loren
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    jeffyscott: "Why is it ridiculous? The data is simply based on the number of problems per vehicle. This does have the weakness that all problems are treated as equal."

    How did they obtain this "data"? And when? In my opinion, a credible research study should cite their sources and methodolgies. Also, it is misleading to state that one brand is more reliable than another when all problems are treated equally.

    Example:

    Midsize sedan "A" has been in the shop twice; once for a door lock that malfunctioned, and once when the radio stopped picking up FM channels.

    Midsize sedan "B" has been in the shop only once, after the transmission suddenly self-destructed.

    Which car has been more "reliable"? According to most of the studies which are being cited in this forum, it would be car "B" because it is less likely to develop a "problem." But which car would you rather buy? Which one would you consider reliable?

    Seems like most of these studies don't use common sense...

    And why are they all so scared to let you know EXACTLY how they came up with their results? I mean specifics; if they are using surveys, how many surveys were taken, how long ago, among what population or group of respondents, and how were they compared with one another? Were all "problems" treated as equal, were repair costs taken into account, etc?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Not so sure about the gas mileage on Aura. While it seems a bit heavy, my past experience with GM V6 OHV engines, is that they got figures for MPG at or above listed. Not sure how the DOHC will do. I may drive the Aura again. After several runs with the Honda, I decided on a V6 in that line. Just one sweet ride. And while classified as a family car, it really does well on the road. Good feel, nice steering and not too much lean in cornering. The Aura seemed like a decent car. The engine being a bit rougher than the Honda V6, but then again, I tested the base with the 3.5. And I may add, it may not be a bad compromise in that it sells in the price range of the Honda i4 cars. Of course not matching i4 gas mileage, but is a little quicker. In looking around the city and highways, if you own an Aura, you have a unique car - a rare find. Seems like they are not selling. Wonder if the advertising did not work well, or something else is going on here. Looks like Saturn was asleep too long???
    -Loren
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Thanks for the link. It's nice to see a long term (4-5 year) study that is organized so well (breaks out problems by mechanical, body integrity and accessories- I like that).

    From what I read on their site, based on their claims, they are doing good market research. However, I still have questions... It says "These scores come from owners who have rated their vehicle on dependability after four-to-five years of ownership."

    What owners? Has anyone ever been asked by J.D. Power to rate their own car after 4-5 years? How do we know that their sample is representative of the total population?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I thought I heard a while back that the G8 would be a Bonneville replacement. Is it basically the Grand Prix replacement instead?

    It was always the Grand Prix replacement. You obviously heard wrong. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I've seen a few Aura's even here in truck country. ;)

    I guess you wouldn't see them on the left coast. Is that really surprising. ;)

    Rocky
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the car I was asking about specifically the 3.5SE?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    sorry, duh!
    but, I would guess your MIL will have the same sort of luck I've had with Nissans overall - a total of four of them, over 15 years, a total of about 500,000 miles, and never had one in the shop - although I did lose the 92 Maxima to a blown tranny at 250k (my fault). They are great cars, and that 3.5 VQ is perhaps the best V6 out there (apologies and a tip of the hat to Toyota and Honda).
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    didn't anybody catch the fact that this extended warranty co and reliability stats are apparently for Great Britain!?
    Not the same cars (although mostly the same mfgrs.) - got to be careful about the silly Internet, you can find info on all kinds of things that don't really apply.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Edmunds has figures for estimated (5 yr/75,000 mi) repair costs for in their "true cost to own". There is very little difference in the expected repair costs for the models I looked up: Fusion, Accord, Camry, or Mazda6.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I believe more in comparison tests, than reliability data reports. In a comparison test they drive the cars back to back, and I think that gives them a good assessment of which car they like best, and why. The car reviewer (doing a comparison test) can give you an idea what to look for during the test drive (personal pros and cons).

    Reliability data is relevant, as far as the highest rated cars, will probably be more reliable than the lowest rated. The rest is a wash, IMO. You can pick a lemon, in ANY brand.
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    Ok - I just thought about this - what exactly does Saturn stand for? The Japanese make it easy - get a Honda/Toyota for mainstream, an Acura/Lexus for luxury.

    GM has too many brands... Chevy is mainstream. Cadillac is the luxury. Pontiac is sorta sporty/younger/value??? (sort of like a Scion?). And then you have Buick and Saturn. So it confuses buyers a great deal. The Aura is not upscale enough to be a Lexus/Acura equal to the Malibu. The CTS is more like competition for an Acura TL. The Malibu is the Accord/Camry direct competition. So the Aura is lost.

    I think GM is failing to realize that people are confused by their many offerings and a simplified lineup would make things much easier.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well, its not really disproving your point, but rather making another. The Aura 3.5L with similar mileage as Accord V6 isn't nearly as quick according to instrumented testing and power ratings.

    The 3.6L is a good competitor to the Camry, Accord, and Altima V6s. The 3.5L is good if you don't care about mileage and want V6 torque but don't care about being particularly fast or advanced.
  • tncarmantncarman Member Posts: 82
    Saturn is trying to be, according from an article I read, mainstream yet more upscale. It's more a middle-of-the-road brand now, between your basic midsize car and a luxury car. Think of it like this.
    You have your vinyl seats: You get Chevy
    You have your cloth seats: You get Saturn
    You have your leather seats: You get Cadillac
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Nope, I would say the New Malibu 2008 and the Aura 2007 are direct competition to the Accord and Camry. Malibu and Aura will be a choice of styles, the Aura looking more like the Opel / Euro look.
    -Loren
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I haven't seen vinyl seats in a Chevy for a long time.

    Now that Saturn is losing its uniqueness (no more plastic panels, no real unique models except the Opel-based hatch coming soon), it seems redundant with Pontiac, since both have a sporting flair. Or maybe Saturn is the reincarnation of Oldsmobile??
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Saturn could be the North American Opel. Yeah, not exactly the same, with different engines and transmissions, but as close as ya get to Euro division cars sold here in the states. I do believe the new hatch is going to be the Euro Opel. Is it imported, or is it another near-Opel car.
    -Loren
  • neteng101neteng101 Member Posts: 176
    It makes even less sense with the Ford trio - Fusion, Milan, Zephyr. Basically the top trim Zephyr is really a Fusion with leather seats, HIDs, etc. Its isn't like they're reusing the same foundation and revising/tuning the car differently (like the Lexus ES and Acura TL). All this badge engineering just makes it more confusing for the consumers.

    The same practices of the good old days are still at work in Detroit with badge engineering. Why not just make one solid mainstream and luxury model in each class segment and sell it like crazy (witness the Accord/TL and Camry/ES success)? :confuse:

    And if vinyl is Chevy, cloth is Saturn and leather is Cadillac... what exactly are Buick and Pontiac? Suede and plastic? :confuse:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Basically the top trim Zephyr is really a Fusion with leather seats, HIDs, etc. Its isn't like they're reusing the same foundation and revising/tuning the car differently (like the Lexus ES and Acura TL).

    That's true for the Milan but not the MKZ. The MKZ is significantly different and upgraded from the Fusion and Milan starting with the 3.5L V6.
  • exshomanexshoman Member Posts: 109
    You'll find that people who are loyal to imports will typically say problems like the ones you describe are the exception and not the rule. Sometimes people will trade in a trouble prone import for another vehicle from the SAME brand. Could you imagine anyone doing that with a domestic?

    I just had a friend who did that exact thing. He had a 99 Outback that had about 90K miles. Don't recall the details, but at 60K, he had a problem that cost over a thousand dollars. Then his AC went, as well as another problem that combined was going to cost two thousand dollars. The final straw was his engine started overheating a few weeks ago (in the middle of winter!). He spent a couple hundred replacing his thermostat, but when it continued to overheat, the mechanic said it was probably a blown head gasket. He traded it in to Carmax for $3500.

    He then went out and bought a new 2007 Outback last week.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Well, I don't blame him, really. There are only four AWD systems that work properly on the market. Subaru, Audi, Volvo, and Mercedes. Everything else actually makes the car handle worse or not even good enough to do simple off-road tasks(say a 25 degree dirt hill). Considering that the other manufacturers just cost a fortune, the Subaru is a good alternative.

    And the last couple of years they have been pretty reliable.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    The MKZ is significantly different and upgraded from the Fusion and Milan starting with the 3.5L V6.

    Why do they keep throwing that aweful grill on Lincolns? I think its a nice car otherwise.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    You'll find that people who are loyal to imports will typically say problems like the ones you describe are the exception and not the rule. Sometimes people will trade in a trouble prone import for another vehicle from the SAME brand. Could you imagine anyone doing that with a domestic?

    A comment like that sure is broad-based and accusatory for one-person with limited communication with the millions of import car owners. (And yes I know you 'exshoman' aren't the original poster who said that)

    And, for the record my great aunt who now is on her third Honda once sold her old, suspension-troubled Buick Regal (I say old I think it was 6 years old at the time) on a Buick Century. This was around 1990 though. She didn't make the same mistake again though. Her Century was more trouble free than the 80s Regal she had but she eventually left GM for Honda and hasn't looked back.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The MKZ is significantly different and upgraded from the Fusion and Milan starting with the 3.5L V6.

    Why do they keep throwing that aweful grill on Lincolns? I think its a nice car otherwise.

    Well, it's their design language. Too bad more people don't speak it!
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    That's true for the Milan but not the MKZ. The MKZ is significantly different and upgraded from the Fusion and Milan starting with the 3.5L V6.

    I could be completely nuts, but I disagree on the Milan being the same as the Fusion. I think the ride and handling differs from the Fusion. Ride seemed a little softer and steering was lighter. I also think the mercury was a bit quieter and the seats were slightly different...not as deep as the Ford.

    Finally there is nothing wrong with having a choice of cars that differ in styling. I like the styling of the Milan much more than the Fusion. If Honda did this, without sticking me with a premium equipment level, that I don't want, I might have considered one of their vehicles. I could not get past the unattractive (to me) styling of the Accord (and then they want a premium price for it too). I know it is not based on the US Accord, but had TSX been available equipped at about the Accord SE level, I might have considered that, depending on price.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    Subarus are nice cars, but they do have some weak points. Some (all??) of their engines still use timing belts instead of chains, and the replacement cost is not trivial. Also, they do have a tendency to blow head gaskets, and most shops pull the engine to replace them.

    If you own a Subaru, you must follow the recommended service intervals exactly, or you may see some rather expensive repairs. This is anecdotal evidence from my aunt and uncle's experience with a Legacy and Outback.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "My take the Aura will get significantly less mileage in real world situations. "

    That makes no sense, EPA ratings are off for ALL vehicles, not just certain brands. To say that the Aura would do substantially worse than its EPA ratings but the Accord wouldn't is illogical. Most V6 family sedans get 20-22mpg in mixed driving per magazine tests. The Accord four cylinder in a recent C&D test averaged 24mpg and the Aura averaged 20mpg.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    my bad, the Accord does have SOHC layout. Honda gets great hp/l but it means little in the real world. The mileage of the Accord V6 is about the same as the average V6 family car. The Impala gets 21/31 with it's base V6. The Aura/G6 get 20/28 in spite of having 3.6L V6s vs Honda's 3L. It doesnt really matter in the end. The TSX is another example. The TSX gets 21/30 or 22/30 I believe while the Malibu with 3.5L V6 and 4 speed gets 22/32. Sure the TSX gets 205hp from only 2.4L but it makes little difference at the gas pump.
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    I could not get past the unattractive (to me) styling of the Accord

    I agree. The Accord's a fantastic car mechanically but the 06 restyle is lame. I think the 08 Accord will revive the Accord's appeal from a design angle.

    The TSX (and the TL) is a thing of beauty - much better looking than the Accord and worth the extra money.
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