Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

m1miata · February 2007

The Aura is pretty heavy. The 3.5 V6 is a cheaper option to power the weight, which it does for decent 0-60 of around 7.5 seconds. The four cylinder would not seem right in this particular car. I guess they could turbo the thing. Test drove the 3.6 V6 today, and it is a rocket! Very powerful, and pretty smooth engine. Sounds good too. Adds $4K to the bill, and you get a couple other things, such as stability control.

I understand the Malibu will have a four cylinder. If the weight is the same as an Aura, less the i4 vs. v6 weigh in difference and it has an automatic, it will not move out too well. The 3.5 is a better choice, and the 3.6 fills the need for speed urge.
-Loren

elroy5 · February 2007

while I would agree that reliability is less a concern than it was 10 years ago, when car shopping. The differences in craftsmanship, and refinement, are still very noticeable, and real. My Chevy has been very reliable (at least the problems it does have, I can fix myself), but I still consider it a piece of crap. The engine is not very smooth or powerful. The blinker stalk feels like it's about to fall off (but then it's felt like that for 4 years now). The seats are not comfortable. Not a pleasure to drive. My Accord is smooth, comfortable, solid, and everything works like it should. That is the difference to me, and worth the extra cost, if any IMO.

thegraduate · February 2007

i'm amazed you would post anything to do with top gear, they don't think much of your state.

And I don't think a lot of their country (their food and weather are quite awful, and most people lack any kind of courtesy or kindness that I came into contact with), but I like their program overall. It's pretty funny.

tncarman · February 2007

I think Top Gear is a great show. And I do agree with most of waht they say, even on Americans. And Ive nvr left North America so hey. ITs a GREAT program, great

explorerx4 · February 2007

i like most of their stuff, too. i just think they went over the line. english soccer fans are not know for their decorum, but i don't see motorweak going over there to agitate them.

lilengineerboy · February 2007

I personally don't think the lack of a 4 cylinder will matter in the purchase decision for an Aura.

I know I'm just one consumer of a midsize sedan, but it would certainly save me a trip to the Saturn dealer by learning of no 4-cylinder option.

Yes but you had no intention of going there anyway and commented on how much you enjoyed your other Accord, so I don't think you were in the market for that vehicle anyway. Very generically, they are all midsized 4dr sedans, but as far as market demographics, they are pretty different.
It may also be the fuel economy different isn't so great (3-4mpg really isn't going to make a huge difference at 15k/yr).
If you are one of the folks that like the sound of a 4 cylinder winding out, thats cool, I can totally understand that, but agian, someone who likes rev-happy engine noises isn't the person who is looking for a plush sedan like the Saturn.

lilengineerboy · February 2007

How are they going to make profits when they're already starting all the discounting so early into the year?

Its the middle of winter, its slow season. Toyota is offering discounts on the Prius. Its a seasonal thing.

Some choices are good, the CTS is a RWD performance oriented platform..thats G35/IS250/3-series range. The other FWD mid-sizers seem like the have pretty different tuning and styling to appeal to different markets. Depending on how similar they are underneath, it might not be that huge of an expense with respect to design, engineering and manufacturing costs, but still each one has to be marketed.

thegraduate · February 2007

Yes but you had no intention of going there anyway and commented on how much you enjoyed your other Accord, so I don't think you were in the market for that vehicle anyway. Very generically, they are all midsized 4dr sedans, but as far as market demographics, they are pretty different.
It may also be the fuel economy different isn't so great (3-4mpg really isn't going to make a huge difference at 15k/yr).

Actually, I tested several models, including a V6 Fusion and a V6 Hyundai that were the same price of my I4 Accord, but I went with the Accord because it was just that good of an engine and had better interior quality. At the time, GM had no offering that came close to the quality of the other compeitors based on my simple auto-show sit-ins. The 2006 Malibu and G6 were pretty sad in comparison with even the Altima, which isn't particularly well-made. Again, one experience, one perception, but that was mine.

If you are one of the folks that like the sound of a 4 cylinder winding out, thats cool, I can totally understand that, but agian, someone who likes rev-happy engine noises isn't the person who is looking for a plush sedan like the Saturn.

Actually, having been in several GM pushrods, I can tell you that I felt that the I4 Accord is much smoother and less thrashy at high RPMs than the 3.4 and 3.8L engines on which the 3.5L and 3.9L GM engines come from. I do not know about the 3.5L from the Aura XR, but it is more expensive than 4-cylinder competitor, so I won't go there.

Anybody heard a Pontiac 3.8L after 5 years (a family from church has a Bonneville which is what I'm referring to)? I swear that "sporty" exhaust note makes the car sound like it is falling apart.

ex_tdier · February 2007

Most reliability surveys dont break down ppv by severity or expense of repair. This isnt unique at all. JD POwers just gives problems per 100 vehicles but there is no additional weight given to "serious" problems. Obviously keeping track of that would make the survey and its results very complex. The same applies to CR and their little dot ratings system. When a car gets an average rating you dont know if thats because of a high rate of windsheild wiper problems or leaking head gaskets

Even the minor problems can add up to being big problems if there are enough of them. IMO, it comes down to overall quality.

rockylee · February 2007

You didn't have the Twin Turbo did you Loren ?

Rocky

tlong · February 2007

How are they going to make profits when they're already starting all the discounting so early into the year? Instead of building 5 mid-sized sedans - Malibu, CTS, Lacrosse, G6, Aura, they should focus their engineering on building 2 kick [non-permissible content removed] cars, one mainstream, one luxury and sell them like hotcakes.

I posted a comment just like this one many months ago. GM should examine the Accord, the Camry -- and then build a better car in every way!. Sell it at a loss if they have to to be competitive. Think of the PR that one car would get, what value it would add to the brand name. Change consumer perception! Ten pretty-good models aren't going to do it.

m1miata · February 2007

Nope, the base model, all 164HP of it. :shades: Car looked great, drove the corner well, and got decent gas mileage (and a large tank).
-Loren

m1miata · February 2007

Have you driven the Aura? The 3.5 is good -- 3.6 is really fast! It is a competitor. Even if you come away thinking it is less in one way or another, it has its good points. Seems quiet on the road. Depends what you are looking for. I could point out a plus for the Aura over the Accord say, though I could also note where is has a negative score. It is right in there among the rest in class from Japan. The 3.6 in the XR is really a spirited ride. Of course the other two, Accord and Camry scoot along well. I would say handling is good with both Accord and Aura. I do like the Honda road feel, though road noise is more prominent. Have not driven the Camry, but going by the numbers, it is quick. Steering a Camry though is usually too sport like, so that is one of several reasons I did not try it out. The transmission woes and such have me concerned. I am wondering now about the New Malibu looking perhaps too close to the Aura. Will they just eat up each others sales? Aura is fresh now, and a good lookin' car.

-Loren

1487 · February 2007

The hybrid will be the Aura's four cyliner model and will get 28/35 using 2007 ratings. There's your four cylinder. If you want a cheaper four cylinder the G6 is available and the Malibu will be this summer. BTW, the Aura hyrbid will not be much more than a COMPARABLY equipped Acccord/Camry four cylinder. We all know that those two cars start under $20k but the models most people buy with the features people want are over $20k. The Altima starts at $18k but that model doesnt even have AC standard so who really cares.

1487 · February 2007

"Actually, having been in several GM pushrods, I can tell you that I felt that the I4 Accord is much smoother and less thrashy at high RPMs than the 3.4 and 3.8L engines on which the 3.5L and 3.9L GM engines come from. "

The 3.5L and 3.9L have nothing to do with the 3800 whatsoever. Furthermore the 3500 and 3900 are heavy evolutions of the 3.4L V6 and have VVT and are way more refined. If you look at the recent C&D test you will see the 3.5L Aura is about as quiet as the Accord and Altima 4 cylinder cars in the test.

"The 2006 Malibu and G6 were pretty sad in comparison with even the Altima, which isn't particularly well-made. Again, one experience, one perception, but that was mine."

Totally disagree. My brother had a renatl 2006 altima and it was far cheaper looking than the G6 and had huge panel gaps in certain location. There is no way that it was in a different league than the GM cars. The new one is much better but is still very similar to the G6 on the inside, right down to the round air vents.

ontop · February 2007

When you buy an Accord you know you're gonna have a solid vehicle 4-5 years from now, and that it will also retain a lot of its value.

When you buy a Aura (or similar GM) you know you're gonna have a loose vehicle 4-5 years from now, and that it will also lose a lot of its value.

Plain and simple reality of Japan vs. domestic.

1487 · February 2007

"The engine is not very smooth or powerful. The blinker stalk feels like it's about to fall off (but then it's felt like that for 4 years now). The seats are not comfortable. Not a pleasure to drive. My Accord is smooth, comfortable, solid, and everything works like it should. That is the difference to me, and worth the extra cost, if any IMO. "

This is the problem with making generalizations based on last generation models. The new Impala is far more refined than the last one. The new Malibu will be far more refined than the current one. The G6 is more refined than the Grand Am and so on. This is why they REDESIGN cars in the first place. I can assure you the tactile feel of current GM midsizers is far beyond my 2002 MY vehicle. I rented a Lacrosse a few months back and its interior components were far better than what's in my car. The stalks, switches and materials were all top notch and just as good as anything in the camry or Accord. Sit in or drive the Aura and compare it to your Accord. Every door is damped, every knob has heft, every stalk moves precisely. Trust me, its not a step down from an Accord. You pay more for an accord to get resale value.

1487 · February 2007

"When you buy a Aura (or similar GM) you know you're gonna have a loose vehicle 4-5 years from now, and that it will also lose a lot of its value. "

My parents have a '98 Intrigue that is still rock solid. Loose vehicle? please, GM sedans are amongst the most rigid in industry.

Speaking of Japanese cars and high resale value, let's remember that Toyota and Honda are the ones with the great resale. Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Nissan, Suburu, etc. are not that great. Hyundai (Korean) is also average in resale. If you really care about resale than you need to get a German car.

imidazol97 · February 2007

>GM should examine the Accord, the Camry -- and then build a better car in every way!

I'll bet GM has already thought of that.

And Honda and Toyo and all the others. They buy a car and take it apart and take the parts apart, looking for engineering and money-saving techniques as well as patent infringments.

1487 · February 2007

"How are they going to make profits when they're already starting all the discounting so early into the year? Instead of building 5 mid-sized sedans - Malibu, CTS, Lacrosse, G6, Aura, they should focus their engineering on building 2 kick [non-permissible content removed] cars, one mainstream, one luxury and sell them like hotcakes."

The rampant discounting you are talking about lasts until 2/20 and is a very limited promotion. As someone esle stated Toyota dealers are running President's Day discounts as we speak. I looked at some dealer ads yesterday and Camrys, Corollas and everything else in the Toyota lineup is being disconted by the dealer. The Corolla already has a factory rebate available. The new Altima/Maxima/Sentra are also being discounted at local dealers and the Maxima has a factory rebate available. What was your point again?

As for killing brands and streamlining, Gm tried that with Olds and it paid no dividends. Didnt boost sales, didnt help grow or even maintain share. They had to cut one brand and they did so but it didnt make the drastic improvement "experts" predicted. Now people are suggesting they should cut more brands to grow. It wont work. As for "few cars = huge sales numbers per model" I think its important to note that only the CAmry and Corolla sell in huge numbers for Toyota and only the RX and ES rack up big numbers for Lexus. The rest of Toyota's products are either average sellers or marginal players on the market. In fact Toyota is the sales leader in two categories (based on nameplate basis); midsize cars and compact cars. Toyota keeps getting share because a) they have had a constant flow of new products in recent years and b) they are constantly expanding their number of offerings.

captain2 · February 2007

have heard reports of untamed torque steer in the XR, much like the older Altimas. Wonder if you had a chance to push it that hard? While it may not quite keep up with the Camry/Altima, it would seem that it should give the current Accord V6 a run. The 3.6 may, indeed, be GMs entry into this high performance V6 race. Hope the Aura/Malibu does well, it would be good for the car buyer to have as many good choices as he can.
Incidentally, while Toyota has deservedly been receiving some bad pub for its new trannies - understand it is not a transmission problem in a traditional sense - it is a computer problem. Other than a few hundred trannies that did get out of the factory with a physical (snap ring) defect, all others issues (for several hundred thousand cars) seems to be in computer related gear selections and engagements. Not to excuse Toyota, but these recalcitrant multiple speed electronic 'learning' transmissions infect many many cars from a variety of manufacturers.

jeffyscott · February 2007

Steering a Camry though is usually too sport like

:confuse: I thought Toyota's were always known for having vague steering and handling. Have not driven one recently, though.

lilengineerboy · February 2007

If you are one of the folks that like the sound of a 4 cylinder winding out, thats cool, I can totally understand that, but agian, someone who likes rev-happy engine noises isn't the person who is looking for a plush sedan like the Saturn.

Actually, having been in several GM pushrods, I can tell you that I felt that the I4 Accord is much smoother and less thrashy at high RPMs than the 3.4 and 3.8L engines on which the 3.5L and 3.9L GM engines come from.

I have found the 3.8 to be more than adequate, I think its main strength is it doesn't have to rev. The Grand Prix rental (man is that a big car) had no issues with maintaining speed on the Conejo grade, the Cuesta grade, or the Grapevine w/4 people and luggage (and a dog). It never felt thrashy to me.
The Vulcan Taurus had a little bit more trouble with those hills with roughly the same load, but the Fusion (4 cyl) was fine, as was the duratec Taurus. The last Accord I had for that trip was a 4th gen but it spent a lot of time in 3rd and 4th.
I'm glad you have a car you enjoy so much and feel so passionate about. This is why there are so many different models available, so everyone can find something that makes them happy.

lightfootfl · February 2007

Hey guys....you can use (math) statistics to "proof" ANYTHING. It really is just another factor that we must all consider when it comes to making our choices of purchases etc.. Every vehicle will have something happen to it sooner or later, big or small. We have to try to figure it all out, and all of the sources available ?? help ?? us do just that.

Wheee ain't it fun ??

van

thegraduate · February 2007

If you look at the recent C&D test you will see the 3.5L Aura is about as quiet as the Accord and Altima 4 cylinder cars in the test.

Noise insulation does not make an engine more refined, smooth, or less thrashy when revved, with all-due respect. It simply mutes the noises and engine is making.

My brother had a renatl 2006 altima and it was far cheaper looking than the G6 and had huge panel gaps in certain location. There is no way that it was in a different league than the GM cars. The new one is much better but is still very similar to the G6 on the inside, right down to the round air vents.

I guess we can agree to disagree. The G6 was worse in design (to me) than the 05-06 Altima, but now the Altima is really Pontiac-busy inside too, so I'm pretty sure I wouldn't go with either. On exteriors between those two, I'd go with Pontiac.

m1miata · February 2007

Should have read NOT too sport like.
--correction needed & noted--

Loren

thegraduate · February 2007

I have found the 3.8 to be more than adequate, I think its main strength is it doesn't have to rev. The Grand Prix rental (man is that a big car) had no issues with maintaining speed on the Conejo grade, the Cuesta grade, or the Grapevine w/4 people and luggage (and a dog). It never felt thrashy to me.

Under 3,500 RPM they are fine; it's just when you need to punch it to pass when the old 3.8L gets rowdy. I guess it's not bad considering its age. I think Moses had a 3.8L Oldsmobile when he was a kid...

thegraduate · February 2007

Good. I was about to be REALLY concerned with you, having just read the questioned comment myself.

kyrpto · February 2007

QUOTE:
"If you really care about resale than you need to get a German car."

Hogwash! With VW reaching for the stratosphere in pricing most model lines and Mercedes recent reliability issues, Hondas and Toyotas are unbeatable for resale value.
Example: traded a 2yr old Tundra D Cab - got $27K for SR5.

thegraduate · February 2007

If you really care about resale than you need to get a German car.

But you need the high resale to make up for the high cost of maintenance and repairs!

lilengineerboy · February 2007

Noise insulation does not make an engine more refined, smooth, or less thrashy when revved, with all-due respect. It simply mutes the noises and engine is making.

I personally don't mind a little bit of engine noise when I am on it. A bit of a growl is okay with me. I don't need to be so isolated from the driving experience as to feel like I am in a sensory deprivation chamber. It's not a big secret that there is an engine in the car, I don't mind hearing from it occasionally. Its a mechanical thing, it is going to make some noise.
My previous vehicles had an aftermarket performance exhaust systems anyway (Borla, Bossal, and Dynomax)and I liked the exhaust note as the engine reved up. The Borla on the 2.5 duratec was fantastic. Come to think of it, they had intakes as well. Those were amazingly loud.

m1miata · February 2007

Well the 3.6 V6 is a kicker. Best used on the RWD CTS, but fun enough on the Aura, as the front wheels beg for some traction. That instant power I am sure truly belongs on the back wheels for best launch of the missile. It is almost too much for the Aura FWD car.

I have not driven a new Toyota Camry. Should give it a go, I guess. Don't care for a CVT Altima, so that is out.
-Loren

thegraduate · February 2007

I personally don't mind a little bit of engine noise when I am on it

Personally, me neither, as long as it is a pleasant sound, which is why I drive an (loud by today's standards but still quiet by mine) Accord.

By the way, it was funny and scary to see a girl nearly hit by a Toyota Prius in our parking deck at school. The Prius saw her so it wasn't a near-death thing, but it certainly scared the girl. She never heard it coming because it was running on electric-only at the time. Interesting.

1487 · February 2007

The new Altima with automatic tranny isnt faster than the Aura. Only the Camy V6 is faster than Aura V6 unless you count manual transmission V6 sedans in this class.

lilengineerboy · February 2007

By the way, it was funny and scary to see a girl nearly hit by a Toyota Prius in our parking deck at school. The Prius saw her so it wasn't a near-death thing, but it certainly scared the girl. She never heard it coming because it was running on electric-only at the time. Interesting.

How timely of a comment... my Autonews safety breifing had this article linked:
BLIND PEDESTRIANS SAY QUIET HYBRIDS POSE SAFETY THREAT

1487 · February 2007

"Noise insulation does not make an engine more refined, smooth, or less thrashy when revved, with all-due respect. It simply mutes the noises and engine is making. "

Honestly, it doesnt matter. You can make whatever excuses you want, but the Aura is just as quiet as the competition even with the OHV engine. 60 degree V6s are naturally more balanced than 4 cylinder engines regardless of the layout of that V6. This why fours always have a degree of buziness when revving and V6s do not. The OHV v6 may make a different type of sound, but its not a less refined or louder sound.

You think the old Altima interior is better than the current one? That is the first I have heard of that. I think the old Altima interior was one of the worst in class and the current car is now on par with GM sedans and the Fusion/6 but not as nice as Camry or Passat.

thegraduate · February 2007

You think the old Altima interior is better than the current one?

Well, I was only able to judge a new 2006 Altima vs. an Auto-Show veteran 2007, which already looked rough and beaten up somewhat. The design of the 2006 wasn't bad to me, but I don't like the busy-ness of the 2007 version. I don't necessarily mean, quality, but design.

Honestly, it doesnt matter. You can make whatever excuses you want, but the Aura is just as quiet as the competition even with the OHV engine.

Nobody's deabting quietness; I'm debating smoothness. And to me the GM "High Value" V6s tend to sound more coarse than the Honda I4. My opinion is mine, yours is yours. At least we can move on. Agree to disagree

.

fours always have a degree of buziness when revving and V6s do not.

Eh, just drove into town today, had to gun it to merge - revving to probably 5,000 RPM. No buzz, just smoothness. Car and Driver seems to have the same impression I do according to their Article comparing 5 4-cylinders and the Aura. Here are their comments on the Accord engine:

Second, the powertrain is marvelous. It has torque, it is hot-blooded for revs, the vibrations stay out of the cabin, and the transmission is never in the wrong gear (even though it lacks a manumatic function). At redline the exhaust snarls, a lively contrast to the other cars, which have nothing to offer but a rising crescendo of whirs, hums, and buzzes.

MOST 4-cylinder's will buzz; not the Accord 2.4L. Actually, my 2.2L in the 1996 model doesn't buzz either, but it sure gets loud relative to new cars!

plekto · February 2007

Oh gheez you should have heard my dad's 1975 Cutlass Supreme with a 350 V6 the previous owner stuffed in it.

Or my old 1967 Mercedes at higher rpms.

Or any motorcycle.

Feh. Who cares whether it sounds like a sewing machine or not if it goes like stink or has an amazing feel to it.

that said - no contest between an old GM 3.8 versus any import's 4. I'll take 200+ lb-ft of torque anyday.

captain2 · February 2007

Loren- the funy part of this contradiction is that the use of that CVT (which I can understand not liking) and the associated computer control is what has largely eliminated that torque steer that Nissan Altimas/Maximas have had for years. And yep, some folks will find the 'tugging' annoying and others will find it 'fun'.

whahappan · February 2007

psst...the EPA changed the testing protocol for MY 2008, hence the drop in estimated MPG. This will affect MPG ratings for all 2008 models. Of course this doesn't affect real world mpg, only reflects it more accurately.

rockylee · February 2007

I think he was referring to BMW's :P

Rocky

jeffyscott · February 2007

These are numbers for 2006 and 2007, so what does a change that affects 2008 models have to do with it?

rockylee · February 2007

Well next year IMHO, the Malibu will set the bar for the midsize sedan segment with it's very broad configuration, quality, price, and new design. The 08' Malibu, should at least be crossed shop by the camcord crowd because it will make dollars and sense.

Rocky

benderofbows · February 2007

lilengineerboy, what car did you have a 2.5 Duratec in? I have always wondered about the similarities between that engine and the 2.5L V6 I had in my 1998 Mazda 626 ES (leather, bose, alloys, moonroof).

That was a fun car, mostly because it didn't redline until 7,000 RPM, weighed only about 2,700 pounds and the 5-speed manual was geared very, very low (5th gear was 4,000 RPM at 80mph). I think it was rated for 170hp and 160lb-ft. It didn't have variable valve timing, but it did have some sort of variable intake manifold. It would run to 60 in about 7.2 seconds.

My new Accord I4 5-speed drives almost exactly the same way, except for just slightly less low end torque and a little more top end with the VTEC. Maybe slightly slower to 60, I'm thinking 7.5 secs as an Automatic 4-cyl Accord has been clocked at 8.1? Probably the same quarter mile.

I never modded my 2.5 V6, but I kinda wish I had. I know it would have sounded better than the new 2.4 4-cyl would if I were to put a coffee can on it (definately not)

captain2 · February 2007

If you really care about resale than you need to get a German car.
while it is certainly true that a 5 year old 530, for example, will fetch a lot more dollars than a 5 year old Accord - the fact is that in terms of gross dollars spent (a TCO type number) the BMW is much much more expensive to own (as it should be). TCO of that $50k 530 (according to Edmunds) for 5 years is $65 grand (with 29k depreciation) the Accord is $35k (with $12k depreciation). So yes the resale value is high mostly becuase the 530 costs so much new, but so is the gross dollar hit in resale value.

captain2 · February 2007

devil's advocate here - why should the Malibu 'set the bar' when the Aura, as good as it may be, hasn't.

lilengineerboy · February 2007

Bender,
I had a '96 Contour SE V6/MTX with 170hp/165 lb ft torque and 2900 lbs or so. It did 0-60 in about 7.5 or so. The car was actually geared pretty tall in 4th and 5th, and I usually got 28 or 29 mpg. The motor seems similar, no VVT but it did have the dual intake runner thing (which was one of two repairs the car needed while I had it). The car was loaded (lthr, roof, alloys, htd mirrors, etc) and it had the greatest, most comfortable supportive bolstered seats...they de-contented those seats in '98. The 95-97 SEs actually had more aggressive suspension tuning than the later SVTs. That car was 155k of smiles and chuckles.

I had a KKM intake and a Borla exhaust and it sounded beautiful (although it probably wasn't any more powerful), and the only other "modification" was Brembo rotors and KVR brake pads, which I need for the track events as R-compound tires are very hard on brakes (moves the weakest link upwards in the system).
I still miss it.

rockylee · February 2007

Malibu, will be able to conquest Accord buyers something the Aura, isn't designed for. The Aura, is more of a Camry fighter.

Rocky

captain2 · February 2007

so you are assumming the Malibu will be a little 'tighter' and the Aura, I guess, must already be, a little 'softer'? A good portion of Toyota's success has always been based on correctly understanding that we Americans prefer 'soft' to 'hard'. A Malibu setup like the Mazda6 may not have the broad appeal that you think to the average midsize sedan buyer.

neteng101 · February 2007

Well given the pricing, the Impala SS is actually a sweeter buy for a performance oriented buyer. When it comes to muscle V8s sedans, leave it to Detroit! :shades:

And the Impala already sells better than the Malibu at the moment too.

Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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