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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    driverdm,

    I'm taking notes here: Never...try..to..reason...with...car..owner...that...gives...his...car...a...nam- e. There! All written down!

    driverdm I'm sure Kesha is nice. Be sure to tell her hello for me. :P
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    Think about the resale value, are you as a consumer going to buy a car at $16K , (24% less than the $21K figure and 11% less than the $18K figure) when you can get it brand new for $3K less???? You may,... and I'd tell you, you need a stupid sign. I apologize in advance, I will say I am sorry five times to the next Sonata I see on the road.

    No need to apoligize to me. I paid $17,500 for my GLS I-4 Sonata and plan on driving it until the 10-year 100,000 warranty us up at least. After 10K miles this car is just as tight as the day I drove it off the lot. The only people that may feel like they got ripped off is the people that are buying the 07 Camry at MSRP when you can have a comparable Sonata for about $5,000 less. I've been laughing all the way to the bank since I bought this car.

    By the way, at my dealership the prices are going up because the rebates changed at the first of April. This ad was probably the old bait and switch routine.
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    Simple Joke for a Simple man. I will say this after hearing that joke that Jay needs to get with the new millenium if he wants to keep that show. Everybody knows that Hyundai's have come a long way since the break of the new millenium. This Sonata is every bit as reliable as a Camry or Accord for thousands less. Everybody that owns a Sonata knows the joke is on other car owners.
  • sambojoho1sambojoho1 Member Posts: 10
    Yep, well said 94hawkskin. I own a 2002 Sonata LX, my first Hyundai. I bought it new and fully loaded in 2001 for $19k, and it has so far given me 75k trouble free miles. I plan on keeping it well past the extended 12yr/120k mile warranty expiration.

    Hyundai is definitely on the right track, and has been since they first caught my attention with the 1999 Sonata back in the Fall of 98. As long as they continue to keep a strong customer/quality/reliability focus, they've definitely earned my repeat business. This from a reformed "buy American only" guy.

    The only thing funny about Leno's comments is how moronic it makes him look.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Actually, off subject for a sec, Jay Leno's contract is through 2009, so you are liable to hear more of the same until then. By 2009 though, it is quite likely that Hyundai's reputation will be much better than it currently is now (which, IMO, is still better than a domestic).
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The fees are always separate but they have nothing to do with the vehicle per se since they apply to all vehicles of every make. This particular group is multi-franchised with ads that often follow one after the other after the other; Hyundai, Honda, Subaru all within 60 sec. All with the same wording except for the price. There is one disclaimer at the end applying to all.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I guess your Kesha isn't too dear to your heart or you would make her your #1 Car instead of your 2001 Altima. If Kesha ever catches wind of that, watch out! H*** hath no fury like a woman scorned. ;)
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Hyundai will find it much tougher going than the Japanese a couple of decades ago, because then GM, Ford and Chrysler were sitting ducks, kept delaying new tech until it was too late. Now the companies Hyundai is chasing (J-3 of Toyota, Honda and Nissan) are technology leaders. It'll be tough keeping up with them, much less passing.

    the resale leader Accord

    Accord's second best in segment to Altima! I thought most people know that!
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    I would guess that one disclaimer is something like "see dealer for details."

    My point was that the advertised price bore no resemblance to what the dealer actually wanted to put in his pocket if I bought the car from him. The radio ad you heard may be the same type of "deal."

    According to Bloomberg, Hyundai sold 15,716 Sonata's last month, an increase of 46% compared to last year. So, their sales can't be dropping as you predicted. April was not a good sales month for the industry. Ford, GM, Chrysler & Nissan sales declined from a year ago. Bloomberg didn't have a report on Honda or Toyota April sales yet. Although it has a story that Honda's profit may drop 8%, while increasing sales, due to a one time shift of its pension oblilgations to the Japanese government last fiscal year.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    The mere fact that Toyota, and their very vocal salesmen, are discussing Hyundai proves that Hyundai is finally on their collective radar. I think it's rather funny, as I'm only a few months away from my 60th birthday, and have considered all of the negatives that this age implies. On the other hand, age gives one a certain perspective. Having been there (Japan's entrance into the competitive U.S. auto market back in the '60s and '70s), and done that (owned several Japanese cars), it's deja vu "all over again." Domestic dealer's reps would go out of their way to knock all Japanese cars; now it's the Japanese dealer's reps knocking all things Korean. I wonder if in the next five or ten years, Korean dealer's reps will be knocking Chinese cars? And, later the Chinese the Indian's?

    The big winner here, obviously, is the American consumer. Most people today keep their cars longer than ever, simply because of the price of a new car. With the relatively low price of a Hyundai or Kia, coupled with a 10 to 12 year ownership, the resale value and depreciation argument is really somewhat moot. I could care less if a car I bought today for $20,000 is worth $10,000 next month - as I keep cars from 10 to 20 years anyway. When I sold my last Camry it practically had no market value due to its age, and an odometer reading of over 250K. If you have surplus disposable income to trade cars every 3 years, then yes, buy a Honda or Toyota - do not consider anything else. Most people, however, aren't so blessed.

    One doesn't buy a car for an investment, unless it's a collectible such as mid-60's muscle car, an old Ferrari, etc.
  • wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=199242035&dealer_id=79889&car_year=- 2005&search_type=used&make=HYUND&distance=50&model=SONATA&address=21209&certifie- d=&advanced=&max_price=&bkms=1146595520759&min_price=&end_year=2005&start_year=2- 005&isp=y&lang=en&cardist=50
    http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=199682193&dealer_id=79889&car_year=- 2005&search_type=used&make=HYUND&distance=50&model=SONATA&address=21209&certifie- d=&advanced=&max_price=&bkms=1146595520759&min_price=&end_year=2005&start_year=2- 005&isp=y&lang=en&cardist=50
    http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=199909941&dealer_id=566995&car_year- =2005&search_type=used&make=HYUND&distance=50&model=SONATA&address=21209&certifi- ed=&advanced=&max_price=&bkms=1146595520759&min_price=&end_year=2005&start_year=- 2005&isp=y&lang=en&cardist=40
    http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=199923713&dealer_id=54858809&car_ye- ar=2005&search_type=used&make=HYUND&distance=50&model=SONATA&address=21209&certi- fied=&advanced=&max_price=&bkms=1146595520759&min_price=&end_year=2005&start_yea- r=2005&isp=y&lang=en&cardist=50

    so 10500 trade value for a 4c makes sense.
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    To some people resale value means a lot. These are the people that only keep a car for three to five years.

    For me resale value means nothing. I keep my cars until they no longer run or cost too much to maintain. My last car was a 1991 Thunderbird that I gave to my Brother in Law who is a good mechanic. That car had 210,000 miles on it and was ready to fall apart.

    I can already tell this Sonata is a lot better built, which it should be since it is 15 years newer. I hope to get at least 250,000 miles out of it at which point every car is considered worthless, even a Camry or Accord.

    So it seems like resale value is the one main trump card that Camry and Accord has on the Sonata. I can't dispute that. But like I said, it has no bearing on my situation.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    To some people resale value means a lot. These are the people that only keep a car for three to five years.

    This is absolutely the truth.

    While being a keeper is definitely the smarter move, most consumers - by a long shot - are looking to trade in the normal 3 to 4 year range.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I can already tell this Sonata is a lot better built, which it should be since it is 15 years newer. I hope to get at least 250,000 miles out of it at which point every car is considered worthless, even a Camry or Accord.


    You might be surprised what a Honda with 215,000 miles will go for...an asking price of $6,000 for a 1990 Accord with no automatic and 215,000 miles? Even I think that's overpriced, but the more cars being sold at abnormally high prices (hondas) the more I can get for my Accord LX 1996 with 160,000 miles (and climbing about 1,000 miles monthly). Shoot, if someone pays the $5,995 listed on wwww.getauto.com/vehicledetail/adid-5685926/1990/honda/accord-ex/west-union/sc then maybe I should ask $10,000 for my MUCH NEWER 1996... :blush:

    Ok, I'm just being facicious...But the 1990 Accord on that site IS going for $6k. Many 10-15 year old Honda's still got for $3,000-$6,000 easy today, and this likely won't change for awhile. Long story short, a 250,000 mile Honda is just now broken in!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    For those 3-4 year people, maybe leases are the answer. For example, $179/month, 0 out of pocket on a Sonata V6, or $204/month, 0 out of pocket for a Milan (actual lease deals within the past few days). Interestingly, even though the resale values of Accords and Camrys are supposed to be higher, the lease deals on those cars don't seem to reflect that.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Accord's second best in segment to Altima! I thought most people know that!

    Really?

    According to ALG, the Accord is the leader.

    link title

    The Altima was the leader last year.
    The Accord is the leader this year.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    trivia: facetious is the only word in English with all the vowels - in order.

    1997 Camry 4c LE with 185,000 mi and needing tranny work traded for $2000 but with the tranny fixed was going for ~ $4200 retail.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    yeah, i get lazy and dont spell check sometimes...i apologize. I have one more I'd like to share, and it will amaze you what they want for this car!

    http://wwww.getauto.com/vehicledetail/adid-5061140/1997/honda/accord-ex/portland- /or

    I'm a Honda guy, but this car is about $10k too expensive!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I agree wholeheartedly but trying to convince them not to 'buy' a vehicle which they never have any intention of owning. What a struggle!!

    Back in the late 90's as you I'm sure know the residuals were WAY too high and the finance companies were getting killed on turn-ins. In August 2000 they reduced the residuals across the board to roughly approximate the real world ACV's, which were still too high - but not as much.

    Now they prefer to work with the money factors. By subventing these they are foregoing some profit but they are not booking a huge loss automatically with an unrealistic residual.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I agree wholeheartedly but trying to convince them not to 'buy' a vehicle which they never have any intention of owning. What a struggle!!

    :confuse:
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Sadly I was one of those people not too long ago. I have since seen the light. ;)

    My wife and I just don't want long term relationships with vehicles and like to "freshen" the garage every two or three years. We don't mind having reasonable car payments all the time, and we can afford to, so leasing makes a lot of sense for us. Especially since we would pay off cars we bought and then go get a new one.

    On that note, I probably will buy a Mustang next. Some cars just don't make sense to lease.
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    My wife and I just don't want long term relationships with vehicles and like to "freshen" the garage every two or three years

    You don't have to lease to have this benefit. In fact, owning gives you more flexibility at trade/sale time. If you get a decent deal on the car you buy, and it traditionally holds its value (Honda, BMW etc.), at trade time you'll do OK, and you can get that other vehicle.....and not be held to the lessor's timetable (like the 24'th or 36'th month) as to when to change your ride.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    http://www.autoblog.com/2006/05/02/toyota-avalon-proving-problematic-as-quality-- - concerns-grow-for/

    camrys 6 transmission, and avalons constant problems.

    it takes 20 years of reputation building for legit quality, but one mistake that can ruin alot of that(not one but too many american like mistakes)

    Toyota to me lately are chilling like i said. Hyundais quality improvements couldn't come in a better time

    and btw the azera is a winner, it destroys the avalon in exterior design and it has some kind of value. Hyundai right now out of any car companys has the highest "potential" level
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Quick....the No 2 selling auto in the US through April 2006?
    Which domestic automaker outsells Toyota by 50% in the midsized segment?
    Which former No 1 auto has slipped to 4th and almost lower?
    Which rising star lost sales relatively on a month to month basis?

    These all include fleet sales which are not broken out separately.

    Without DC's results yet: Top 11 name plates
    monthly sales: Jan-Feb-Mar-Apr : YTD
    1. Camry........27 - 27 - 29 - 40 : 134,000
    2. Corolla......25 - 25 - 32 - 36 : 118,400
    3. Civic..........25 - 25 - 29 - 31 : 109,800
    4. Accord.......22 - 25 - 30 - 32 : 108,500
    5. Malibu/G6....34 - 24 - 26 - 24 : 107,600
    6. Impala.........22 - 19 - 24 - 26 : 90,400
    7. Altima.........17 - 20 - 24 - 20 : 80,900
    8. Cobalt.........18 - 14 - 21 - 19 : 71,700
    9. Taur/Sab........15 - 17 - 20 - 15 : 66,600
    10. Fus/Mil/Zep....15 - 13 - 17 - 20 : 64,800
    11. Focus..........13 - 14 - 16 - 18 : 60,200
    12. Sonata........12 - 14 - 18 - 16 : 58,600

    GM and Ford obviously have huge fleet sales which hurt profits generally. Hyundai also has significant sales to fleets estimated in the 30% range.

    Can anything stop the Corolla and Civic from racing to the top position in tandem as fuel prices go out of sight?

    Why is the FMZ triplet from Ford being kept to such low numbers? Is this the real 'heart' of Ford's retail sales in the midsized segment? 15-20,000 units a month?
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    Honda doesn't have anything on Hyundai when it comes to resale :) . Check this link out and tell me if it should be higher or lower.

    http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=195387266&dealer_id=55735154&car_ye- ar=2001&search_type=both&make=HYUND&distance=0&model=SONATA&address=70819&certif- ied=&advanced=&max_price=&bkms=1146603759706&min_price=&end_year=2005&start_year- =2000&isp=y&lang=&cardist=0
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Choe13 posted:
    and btw the azera is a winner, - Yes it is
    it destroys the avalon in exterior design - NO that's only your opinion
    and it has some kind of value. - Yes it does
    Hyundai right now out of any car companys has the highest "potential" level - your opinion again but sales may be slipping somewhat. Hmmm

    Here is a another perspective on Toyota's 'faults'. Every model is not perfect as seen by the V6's in the 90's, the Sienna fuel tank 'recall', the Prius software anomaly, the Avalon shifting question and the isolated Camry 6AT incidents. But all are addressed quickly, then they go away and sales grow even faster. This is why Toyota and Honda continue to succeed.
  • steve333steve333 Member Posts: 201
    I think Hyundia owners are so defensive about their purchase because deep down they are either embarrassed about owning something called 'Hyundai' or are ashamed that they just go after the cheapest thing they can find.
    In either case, I would much rather own a Mazda 6 than a Hyundai Sonata. Heck, I'd rather own a Mazda 3.
    Mazda makes some very good cars. I owned a used 1986 Mazda 626 that I had to get rid of a couple years ago. I was very attached to that car.
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    Either a lot of people paid too much money for the 07 Camry or they bought up slashed prices on the 06, but Camry sold 11,000 more vehicles than last month.

    That is amazing. I'm guessing a lot of both happened. That is great news again for a great company. I love Toyota and think they do things the right way, which is why they can sell their vehicles for more money.

    I heard something on the radio the other day and it said that Ford and Gm make about $200 per vehicle sold and that Toyota and Honda make about $1300 per vehicle sold. DOn't know if that was true but was on the radio.
  • steve333steve333 Member Posts: 201
    I agree, not putting in the gear selector was a bizarre move. However, the Impala's dash is very clean and nice to look at (with the aluminum trim, not the fake wood).
    As for the malibu, it could use a re-do, but I think the Sonata is butt ugly.
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    I'm not ashamed and have even helped some friends buy this car as well with complete confidence. That should tell you how much I think this is the smartest buy on the road right now. No it doesn't fit everybodies situation, but if you are looking at buying a midsized sedan then you have to check the Sonata out.

    I think most of the Sonata owners are tired of people talking bad about the car. Most of these people that talk bad about the Sonata have never sat in one to know any better. This is the best kept secret in the mid-sized sedan world right now and Sonata owners want everybody to at least check it out before thay make their next purchase. Apparently Hyundai does too if you watch their Ads.

    Hyundai has now built reliable transportation for the last 5 or so years.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    and avoid speculation about the people who own them.

    Thanks!
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    You might be surprised what a Honda with 215,000 miles will go for...an asking price of $6,000 for a 1990 Accord with no automatic and 215,000 miles? Even I think that's overpriced, but the more cars being sold at abnormally high prices (hondas) the more I can get for my Accord LX 1996 with 160,000 miles (and climbing about 1,000 miles monthly).

    Yea, but the Sonata is ~$5K cheaper up front. There goes your trade-in difference down the tube. I'll take the money up front any day! :)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually in Toyota's planning system the last of the '06's should be gone in the week that the new model arrives. Many places 'run out' of old models before the new ones come in. That would have been back in March though. April is certainly all the new '07's and mostly in the higher trim levels. Next week the hybrid Camry's hit the lots... more traffic.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Hahahaha...ROFL...That's priceless, actually, it's about $99,999! You've got me beat!
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Why is the FMZ triplet from Ford being kept to such low numbers?

    Impala, Malibu & G6 numbers are inflated from fleet sales, they are all among fleet leaders. But so far Ford refuses to give FMZ to fleets.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I wonder if that will change when the Taurus and Sable go bye-bye in October?

    And there are Fusions and Milans in fleets. I've seen them at Hertz for one.
  • dave2222dave2222 Member Posts: 78
    Ford couldn't give them to fleets if they tried, between Mexico, Canada, and the USA the Fusion is selling about 15k units/month ,and currently producing approx. 16k units/month. 12% are going into fleets currently and with the addition of the AWD it should max out production. I think the question is whether they can afford to even give these to fleets? I think they should cut back fleets even further, maybe down to 5-6% which would put residuals higher then the camry, and cut the $500 incentive to limit demand a little.

    If we're looking at a supply-demand curve the demand is higher then the supply. One can only assume that demand is going to increase, and they're already running on 3 shifts at the plant right now. They may want to start production at Atlanta to help take up some of the capacity, espically once the 2007 M.Y. vehicles come.

    Notice - DOES NOT factor in April Mexican sales, or April canadian sales. Fusion and Zephyr both had their highest sales this month so these numbers are conservative.

    April Production Figures
    Fusion - 16,240
    Milan - 3,419
    Zephyr - 3,701

    Ford of USA
    Fusion - 12,613
    Milan - 3,557
    Zephyr - 3,378

    Ford of Canada MARCH SALES CONSERVATIVE NUMBER
    Fusion - 1,546
    Zephyr - 156

    Sales (combined USA and Canada)
    Fusion - 14,159
    Milan - 3,557
    Zephyr - 3,534

    +/(-) Production - Sales
    Fusion - 2,081
    Milan - (138)
    Zephyr - 167
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Taurus/Sable have been selling in large volume for a while now, despite exclusively to fleet. It'd be interesting to see how Ford fills the void of 20-25K/month later this year when production of Taurus/Sable stop.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Number 3 ain't bad at all

    It is, when there were only 3 cars tested.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Four were tested. The others didn't even make the cut to be tested.
  • hraohrao Member Posts: 78
    Avalon shows dent in Toyota quality
    Avalon shows dent in Toyota quality
    Fixes sought for 'problematic vehicle'
    Alan Seider has owned 11 Toyotas since 1982, but his 2006 Avalon likely will be his last. He says quality glitches have bedeviled his Toyota sedan, which he has driven less than 6,000 miles since he bought it last July. His dealer could not solve the car's problems. story
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    Kdhspyder i'm sorry bro, your the only person in this forum that may feel that way.

    The azera is almost as good as mercedez design in terms of exterior lines
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    These all seem very sound and it confirms that Ford's core midsized retail market is about 15-20K units monthly. For them this seems like a good sustainable balance in order to make the vehicle profitable.

    Here's a question. The fleets?

    GM says it cut back dramatically this past month on fleet sales. Ford is planning to drop the T/S in the Fall, 15K units monthly. So where do the fleets go to get their units? I guess they will just have to bite the bullet and pay more to get a F/M/Z rather than steal a Taurus.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    I own a protoge mp3 and i bought it because it is amazing.

    What was mazda before that?? pretty much mediocre. People bought the cars cuz of the sporty appeal and design but not much else. The Protoge and miatas were the cars that saved the companies name(with some help with ford of course) And now the mazda 3 and 6 are respected cars.

    So hyundai has the sonata, tucson and azera to do the job the protoge had to, it will be a similiar mazda story

    Mazda 3 is def a winner(better than civic, corolla) but the mazda 6 needs a better engine and better interior tightness and quality for its class. its almost their though

    I rather buy a Sonata, Mazda 6 than a hondayota any day. I can't trust cars with shady braking, something the mazda 6 and sonata have no problems with
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I think you posted this in the wrong forum. This is not the Hyundai forum.

    There might be 3 of you in total who are in love with the Azera looks but since it's all subjective your opinions mean nothing ... nor does mine.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    Fleet sales are a brilliant way to get your first year cars advertised don't you think?? Just ask alpha01 who was a hyunai anti fan and a accord man and now can't believe how good the sonata and azera(more so) are. His rental i'll bet you would entice him if he were to buy a new mid size car to get a sonatazera now. (alpha01 i know you are amazed by the azera and hyundais capabilities if you are reading this)

    There is no point of bashing fleet sales, and caring about how much profits each companies make(thats not the consumer has to care about). The f150 is prob one of the greatest pickups made, and it is prob big time favorites of hertz an d budget etc. It doesn't mean its a bad pickup, actually one of the best. Your fleet theory is not legit with that
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I can't trust cars with shady braking, something the mazda 6 and sonata have no problems with

    Agreed.. I can't buy cars with shady long term reliability therefore all the Hyundais are out until 2012 or so.

    Same logic.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Member Posts: 245
    Its funny you gave me a hard time about me speaking broken English last time. I also seen your other post that complains others not spell right. Its about time you get the lesson.

    BTW, a sentence should start with capital letter.
    "yeah, i get lazy and dont spell check sometimes." is incorrect.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    how about your toyotas short term reliability these days?

    your comebacks have no substance , just like your car of choice toyota sorry to say my friend. Ask them to make some basic decent brakes , it will save your life one day
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    No!

    This is the amateurs strategy. See GM and ask them if it works. What it does is it gives everyone who rents a vehicle that 100 other people have gotten sick in it, smoked in it, had sex in it, bumped it into garages and parking curbs; abused the engines and brakes and dials and switches.

    THIS is what Hyundai wants new prospective buyers to see? Are you nuts? Again look at GM and Ford. Look at the Taurus especially. Fleet sales ruined what was the No 1 car in N America in the late 80's/90's.

    But as I said it's the amateurs strategy. It's just been proven to be worthless as a primary means to move units.
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