Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

choe13 · May 2006

If i was in a trashed mercedez benz or acura tl as a rental car, i dont' care if it has drink spilled etc, scratches whatever, as a driver i know its a good car even with all that crap dumb drivers do to rental cars. The taurus however even if u wax it a million times, armor all the interior, put some nice freshner, it still can't save its mediocre self. It was just a big car, decent highway car AND thats it

Maybe hyundai wants to let consumer know how durable their cars can be. Like i said the exposure has been been a positive outcome. Hyundai knows once u step inside, it will be a shocker

kdhspyder · May 2006

You'll need to be clearer. Nothing made sense in your statement.

But as I said you have your opinion and I have mine and both have no value whatsoever. The market does speak though. It seems that more people hold my worthless opinion than yours.

OH, I guess you omitted to notice that the Sonata's sales went down this month ( OUCH !! ) while the 4 Honda Toyota vehicles were up? Ahhh the market speaks again.

In 5-6 years you can come back and likely then your vehicles will be on an even par. They might even reach 50% of a Corolla's sales by then.

thegraduate · May 2006

I also seen your other post

It's "I have...", or, in contraction form, "I've seen your other post..."

And you are dogging me over a letter?

Forgive me, I didn't realize one lower case letter made sentences hard to read. I'm not the only one having issues understanding you (judging from what kdhspyder has said). It's not personal. If it was personal, I wouldn't respond at all because it would be deleted in no time anyway.

Back to the cars, shall we?

Sorry...I wasn't trying to be snotty about it when i corrected you weeks ago, it was a clarity issue, and still is for me when I try reading what you write. I guess it's a personal fault of a broadcasting major.

pat · May 2006

Things are getting entirely too heated in here.

We are supposed to be comparing the features and attributes of the vehicles under discussion. Somehow this discussion has devolved into personal sniping, insults, attacks, and other inappropriate posts which are not helpful to those trying to make a purchasing decision.

With apologies to the few who have not contributed to this melee, and there are a few of you, we're going to take a time out now.

pat · May 2006

All rested up and cooled off, we'll try this again. We just need to refrain from the personal comments and the taking (and giving) offense when opinions differ.

It's not that hard ... all we have to do is turn the temperature down on the posts and stick to the cars, avoiding any personal comments. Let's give it a try, okay?

mf15 · May 2006

Great this is one of my favorite discussions, glad to see it back on-line. That being said I am looking forward to the 07 Altima. I love driving my son's 05 3.5 SE but I would like him to trade it for an 07 with all of the safety features that could not be easily found on an Altima with manual trans. I think I will like the 07 enough to perhaps buy one myself. It might be a bigger car than I really need, a TSX would be nice but I may want more power than the TSX provides. Old Mike

tinatina · May 2006

I concur. Hopefully the Toyota groupies and the Hyundia groupies can have a cease fire and stop with the monthly sales, politics, etc.

Lets get to talking about the new Altima, next generation Accord, revisions to the Sonata for 2007, and the Avalon, etc.

This is my favorite thread at Edmunds, so please don't close it.

baggs32 · May 2006

You don't have to lease to have this benefit. In fact, owning gives you more flexibility at trade/sale time. If you get a decent deal on the car you buy, and it traditionally holds its value (Honda, BMW etc.), at trade time you'll do OK, and you can get that other vehicle.....and not be held to the lessor's timetable (like the 24'th or 36'th month) as to when to change your ride.

I'm well aware of that. However that method forces you to choose from a small group of vehicles which ruins all of the fun.

I'm not looking to be frugal or make the "smart choice". I'm a big fan of the whole driving experience and need to be able to choose from the whole.

Look at the cars being compared in this thread. Some hold their value very well, some moderately well, and some just tank after a few years. I have to say, I'm not a big fan of the two at the top and therefore I'll continue to lease.

seniorjose · May 2006

I didn't see anything wrong with the cloth in the Accord EX. In fact, I have yet to hear anyone complain about the quality of the cloth in the Accord. I have seen 10-13 year old Accords with 200,000 miles without a rip or tear in the seat.

Quality failures on Hyundai interiors are showing up. The 06 Sonata leather seats seem to be "scaling", discoloring and losing their color treatment already. See the Hyundai forum. This is a decades old problem with poor leather preparation. This should not be hard to fix once some leather quality experts are hired by Hyundai...evidently their suppliers are not experienced in the prepping of quality leather products...not a major problem. It might be better if current Sonata purchasers stick to the cloth seats for the time being. But, then that is the reason for the long warranty in the first place.

njerald · May 2006

Just one person mentioned this!!!

seniorjose · May 2006

"Fleet sales are a brilliant way to get your first year cars advertised don't you think??"

GM announced this week that they will no longer sharply discount sales of their fleet autos, they expect that costs of the autos bought for rental car agencies will rise sharply...BLOOMBERG TV NEWS. I wonder if Ford will follow suit!

seniorjose · May 2006

Did anyone notice that the Honda Accord has 38 pages listed for their 2003-2006 complaints and Hyundai was already up to 58 pages of Maintenance and Repair complaints...hmmm, now to check out Toyota Camry, Mazda 6, and Altima....interesting!

backy · May 2006

You are comparing apples and oranges--the Sonata "Problems and Solutions" discussion (which dates back to August 2001 and has about 1100 posts) and the Accord "Repair and Maintenance" discussion, which cover different topics. The comparable topic for the Accord is "Honda Accord Quality Control Issues", which has over 3000 posts in the same timeframe (since August 2001).

Yes, that is very interesting.

pat · May 2006

We've been around this block before. Numbers of posts in any given discussion do not indicate anything that is statistically significant. You can't assume every post represents a problem, you can't assume that one person hasn't made 50 or 100 posts about one single problem and most importantly, you can't assume that the numbers of people posting in any of our discussions represents a statistically accurate segment of the car-owning population. In fact, my money is on the fact that in no way do we represent a statistically accurate segment for a number of reasons - not all car-owners post on the internet, for one thing, unhappy people are more likely to find a place to vent than are happy ones, for another.

In any case, we're not going there.

We're going to compare the features and attributes of the vehicles in this segment, we're not going to compare numbers of posts. :-)

gefilte · May 2006

after reading countless forums on the attributes of midsize sedans. i finally spent a few grand more and got myself a 06 accord se. couldnt be happier.i guess there is some underlying reason why this vehicle costs significantly more than the sonata, for instance.its not about air bag count but about real world driving and ownership experience

backy · May 2006

And also a lot about brand equity. But that is a verboten topic.

Hope you enjoy your new Accord for many years!

habitat1 · May 2006

"And also a lot about brand equity. But that is a verboten topic."

Thank goodness for "brand equity" and consumers that have memories lasting longer than the latest fad in kids clothes.

The first time I saw a Hyundai is when a business associate bought an Excel in the early 90's. He was an attorney and could afford anything, but being from NY and single, he preferred subways and taxis and only drove the car on weekends. Even under minimal use, that Excel began to self destruct in about 3 years. The paint on the hood and roof began to peel. Numerous mechanical problems surfaced. My associate, a corporate attorney, contacted a law school buddy in private practice and they filed and won a class action suit for several hundred thousand dollars. Others followed.

Nearly two decades earlier, back in 1977, I had almost purchased a Honda Civic CCVC as my first car. (Went with a Datsun instead). I still remember how tiny and spartan those early Civics were, but they were pretty well built for their time and instead of inspiring lawsuits, inspired an entire generation to take Honda quality seriously, especially as an alternative to low quality Ford and GM products.

Hyundai seems to be trying hard to reverse their image. And perhaps someday they will succeed. But I think the long term success of Honda is well deserved and, if there wasn't such a thing as "brand equity" no one would be incentivized to strive for excellence from day one. Hyundai entered the US market with junk - and whatever challenges they now face with respect to image are very well deserved. You are certainly free to turn a blind eye to the past, but given Hyundai's recent corporate transgressions, I'm not so sure they have evolved from it.

imidazol97 · May 2006

>Nearly two decades earlier, back in 1977, I had almost purchased a Honda Civic CCVC as my first car. (Went with a Datsun instead). I still remember how tiny and spartan those early Civics were, but they were pretty well built for their time and instead of inspiring lawsuits, inspired an entire generation to take Honda quality seriously, especially as an alternative to low quality Ford and GM products.

I disagree about the inspiration method of the small, little economical cars of that era. They were called econoboxes because they were economical to buy (minimal complications-no power steering power brakes power windows?), and they got great gas mileage making them economical as daily drivers. The Honda CVCC required premium fuel. A friend had one in Charleston when I would visit. It died if you drove through standing rainwater on roads after the daily rain storms. Wouldn't restart for hours. It had some other foibles that was a typical problem of many cars of the era so I won't try to recall them. He dumped it for a pickup truck, IIRC.

The small cars of the 80s were just that. Small for 4 people or at least two comfortably. SMall wheels and tires for saving original cost. No PS PB PW etc. A basic car. And they got good mileage with the 4 cyl manual trans. That based the reputation. Then they started adding features and increasing the size to move into the larger car market.

backy · May 2006

Have you owned or even driven a recent Hyundai, especially the Sonata or Azera? They are as far from those Excels as one could possibly imagine. While Hyundai has been laser-focused on quality the past six years, it's been companies like Toyota and Honda that have struggled with major quality issues in their mid-sized cars. So you can stay stuck in the past if you want; others are keeping up with what is happening in today's automotive world and are taking advantage of current realities to get excellent cars like the Sonata for much less money than the HonYotas.

joe97 · May 2006

1) Your story from the past doesn't quite add up.
2) You are in the miniority as far as not accepting the fact Hyundai has far evolved from the past.
3) Try moving away from ignorance and appreciate good competitions.
4) Let's get back on topic and talk about cars before the mods lock this up for good.

meateater · May 2006

Have you owned or even driven a recent Hyundai, especially the Sonata or Azera?

I've driven both these cars. I liked the Sonata's price tag for what you (seem to) get. Little unsure about owning a Hyundai for the long term just yet.

I don't get the appeal of the Azera. Once you get into the higher dollars for a vehicle, Hyundai is low on my list. The Azera just seems plain Jane. Stick with the Sonata.

goodegg · May 2006

I don't get the appeal of the Azera. Once you get into the higher dollars for a vehicle, Hyundai is low on my list. The Azera just seems plain Jane. Stick with the Sonata.

I agree. The Sonata seems to be a lot for the buck, but I think people have a 7' ceiling when it comes to how much money they'll put into a Hyundai.

alpha01 · May 2006

For this reason precisely, Toyota launched Lexus, Nissan Infiniti, and Honda Acura (first and less of a segway...)

~alpha

backy · May 2006

Go take a look at the Azera owners discussion--seems quite a few people will put over $25k into a Hyundai. Also, the Sonata will shoot above $25k MSRP once features like nav are added.

jrock65 · May 2006

Speaking of Nav, do you know when Hyundai will add it as a factory option?

I can't understand why that something that was available in Korea 8 years ago, and is now available on the Korean Elantra, is not available here.

beantown · May 2006

The Sonata would never make my short list for one reason: the interior. IMO - it is the ugliest in the class. Considering that is where I will be looking at the car 95% of the time, it HAS to look good. I can't even count how many posts from Hyundai loyalists have commented on how they missed the mark with this one, so I know my opinion is shared.

pat · May 2006

Posts not specifically about vehicles have just now been and will continue to be removed.

Comments to me should be made in email, not here.

We are talking about specific cars, not economies.

The News & Views board is for opinionated conversation about these kinds of things. The Sedans board, where you are, is about sedans. If you don't like a sedan in this class, speak to the features and attributes of the sedan. Not the economy that you perceive is behind it.

I am going to continue to try to save this discussion for a bit longer. It has been a long-running and useful conversation, and it is a shame for a few to ruin it for the rest. But we are on our last legs - not threatening, just sharing the reality with you.

When someone makes an off-topic post, as in a post not about the vehicles themselves, you people who want the discussion to continue need to not respond and instead make every effort to right the listing ship instead of taking the bait. You are the ones in control of the future here, not I.

Sorry for the harsh reality. I really am. But it's up to you; I cannot make this work with so many of you posting every which way but on-topic

mahiri · May 2006

Hello,
I am debating between buying a Saturn ION for about 10,900 or a 1997-98 used Honda Civic (70,000 miles) for 7,000. I would appreciate any input on which is the better deal.

driverdm · May 2006

I agree that the interior is horid, though I fear for our safety for saying such things about the beloved Sonata.

Anyhow, to get away from the "Sonata Midsize Forum" for a little bit which is what the forum has been for pages on end. Has anyone seriously looked at the VW Passat? I had a chance to see a white one and they are on sale at dealers near me to clear out the 06 models. They have a ton of nice standard features and don't even come in clothe!! I sat in the baseline Value Edition with a friend of mine and honest too goodness didn't know it was leatherette until the salesman told me. We then sat in a leather model and noticed we liked the firmer feel of the leatherette better!!! Good stuff, real good stuff. The outside is as bland as a piece of wood though.

backy · May 2006

You might have better luck with your question in a discussion dedicated to small cars like the ION and Civic, or maybe in the "Purchasing Used Vehicles" discussion.

backy · May 2006

Does every post of yours need to drip with sarcasm about Hyundais/Sonatas?

What are the prices on these '06 Passat VEs, and how do you suppose the leatherette would feel in the summer (i.e. I wonder if it breathes)? The Passats have very good safety scores (IIHS "Silver" pick) in their favor, but reliability has not been a strong suit. Maybe the new model will be better there.

jimmy81 · May 2006

Let me be the one that says lurking this thread has been pretty enjoyable. Loyalties abound. I think its great to let everybody have a chance to lay it out there on a site like this. If we all agreed how great we are than it would be, well, very boring. I say let it ride (maybe I missed the juicy stuff tho).

scape2 · May 2006

Go the ION you get a warranty and most of all a new car that will last you..

scape2 · May 2006

These boards are great! A great way to get information, find information and spread information.

scape2 · May 2006

What is this car doing on this board? The Passat is a very spendy vehicle. They start at about 24K on up to about 36K! This car is a notch above the Camry/Accord/Fusion/Sonata/Altima ect.. :surprise:

backy · May 2006

You may not have noticed, but the 2007 Camry is in that same range now--$24k for a loaded LE I4, and over $30k for a loaded XLE V6, and even more for the hybrid. But I see your point. I too see the Passat in the next class up--with the likes of the Avalon and Azera. But there's a lot of overlap, plus the Passat is VW's only mid-sized sedan.

booyahcramer · May 2006

Does every post of yours need to drip with sarcasm about Hyundais/Sonatas?

Not everybody loves Hyundais. These boards do seem to attract the Hyundaiers tho, that's for sure.

But where are the Fusioners? I test drove one twice cause the first drive was uneventful. The second time was about the same. I give it a B- when it comes to taking on the others in this comparo. But this is a tough class to hang with. I gotta hand it to Sonata LX tho. A much better run at CamCords than the Fusion.

joe97 · May 2006

As far as the Sonata interior, while there are better interiors out there, this one works, simply because it's inoffensive. Would I like to see improvements? Sure! And that's what refreshes are for...

At the same time, every car has merits and downsides, at least mass produced cars. Just as much as there are room for improvements on the Sonata, the same goes for others; every single car mentioned in here.

Just as an aside, from talking with current Sonata owners and examing the car on a personal basis many times, the build quality on this car is superb - a clear indication how far Hyundai has come from the past, on its full-line. Numbers speak for themselves, as more and more people praises Sonata and Hyundai - competing exceptional well in respectively classes of their lineup.

driverdm · May 2006

"What is this car doing on this board? The Passat is a very spendy vehicle."

The Passat is a little upscale for this general forum but I havce been seeing some attractive pricing in the Sunday papers that perked my interest so I wanted to see what everyone thought of it.

driverdm · May 2006

"Does every post of yours need to drip with sarcasm about Hyundais/Sonatas?"

When a car is treated like it is created by God, Himaelf and the majority of people would sacrifice their first born instead of admitting that the car is not the end all, be all, of all things. When someone can compare the car to any other car, a Civic, a Mazda3, a 3 Series, a Rolls Royce Phantom. When this happens instead of trying to shine a flash light in the effort to bring light to a universe with no sun (a pointless venture), I will counter with sarcasm.

backy · May 2006

You probably want to hurry over to the Fit discussion, then--that car is being compared to everything this side of a Hummer.

Sometimes just rolling your eyes works too.

So did you want to discuss the Passat or not?

meateater · May 2006

the Passat

Man - who likes those funky button controls? Too metro for me. Also - funky name - Passat - probably means 'overpriced' in Slovakian.

alpha01 · May 2006

backy, I still feel theres a big difference between the Camry and Passat in top end price. One can option up a Passat to just under $37K, the Camry tops out at $30,840. (Also, last year's loaded LE 4 was also 24K. No difference there.) The Accord, which doesnt have the same level of features on the top-end EX V6, is only a grand less with NAV.

~alpha

kingsalmon · May 2006

Not everybody loves Hyundais. These boards do seem to attract the Hyundaiers tho, that's for sure.

There is nothing wrong with attracting "Hyundaiers." I could turn the tables and also say that there are a lot of people who like to bash on Hyundai. Perhaps that's the reason why some people who actually drove, bought, and enjoy their Sonata's are coming to its defense.

If there are a lot of Hyundaiers, then Hyundai must be doing something right with the Sonata. It doesn't scream, "Look at me! I'm sportier and Mazdaish like the redesigned Camry." I think it looks tastefully handsome from the exterior without trying so much and looks inoffensive in the interior. I personally think this is a great vehicle for the money and even if price was similar to the other makes, I might consider it because I like the exterior so much!

Here's one vote for the Sonata as a "Hyundaier."

backy · May 2006

Have you priced the Camry with the hybrid powertrain option? It prices out a lot more than $30k.

As I said, there is a lot of overlap in pricing in these cars, and the Passat is available in the mid-20s range into which a lot of mid-sized car sales fall.

And note it is on the masthead of this discussion.

joe97 · May 2006

Well said kingsalmon - I share your sentiments.

Here is another vote for the Sonata

bobad · May 2006

When a car is treated like it is created by God, Himaelf and the majority of people would sacrifice their first born instead of admitting that the car is not the end all, be all, of all things.

I beg to differ. One of Sonata's biggest attractions is that you do not have to sacrifice your first-born to own a quality car.

However, I think the Sonata should only be compared to $17-$22,000 cars. It should not be compared to $30K cars, although the quality stacks up to some. Just look at the JD Power and CR ratings. The VW's are abysmal, as are the (cough!) BMW's and Audi's. When we bought our Sonata, our goal was to buy the safest, roomiest, all around best car we could find for $18,000 OTD. For those bucks, everything was either way too small, rough, noisy, and under powered. Then we drove the Sonata. We were delighted that we could afford a car in this class. After comparing features, quality, and prices, we almost felt like we stole the car for $18.6K OTD. (Ya, we went $600.00 over budget)

Would I rather have an Accord or Camry? Probably, but while we're fantacising, I would wish to be richer instead of wishing for a nicer car. If I were richer, I may not look at any of the cars in this class.

kdhspyder · May 2006

Be careful.

There are 3 'trim levels'.

$26900 standard
$29000 standard + SR
$30500 'XLE' trim ( SR, Navi, Leather + Htd Seats )

That's it ..tops - unless you want accessories.

These are roughly the same prices as the Prius and the Prius is still flying off the lots. The top trim level of the TCH is $1000 under the XLE V6 - ICE version - but the TCH get 37-39 mpg from real world reports.

V6 power, XLE/Lexus amenities, Corolla fuel economy, normal maintenance ( free in some cases ).

backy · May 2006

Thanks for the correction. If the TCH is as good as you say it is, I wonder how long it will be before we see dealers tacking on another $2-3000 as they have done on the Prius?

What real-world mpg reports are you referring to? I didn't think the TCH had been available for very long--or is it available yet?

driverdm · May 2006

Backy, this is exactly why you will see my sarcasm. How did a request to talk about the attributes of a VW Passat turn into a comparison between it and the Sonata almost automatically when I expressly asked to not talk about the Sonata IN THE SAME POST!! :mad: Am I wrong for just wanting to hear about the VW Passat in comparison to other cars (save for the Sonata) in a forum where it is listed as one of the comparison cars at the top of the page? :mad:

Who cares anymore about why someone bought their Sonata? We have all heard your love stories already. Do you talk about it everyday when you say goodbye to your children for school and around the dinner table at night and right before they go too bed? You guys got a great value, no doubt, but it is not the be all, end all car and some people on here would like to talk about the attributes of other cars without having to go through the mundane and repetitive love stories of Sonata owners. There is also a Sonata board. When does the want to share ones opinion become inconsideration? I'd say right about now. :mad:

It is not equivalent to a BMW. If you buy a Bimmer because it is a Bimmer, you are not foolishly spending your money. You just have other things playing a factor besides value. Same goes for the Camry, Accord, Passat, Fusion, Mazda6, and all the rest. There is a solid reason to buy one over the other. Safety and quality are so close these days that many consider them a given. Some love style, some love performance, some love quality, some love image, some love the best combination with some compromise. The Sonata is the latter of all of those. If you prefer one of the others, that does not make you a foolish buyer as some have posted many many times over. It is the same as picking red paint over silver. The silver will obviously wear better, but some of us fell in love with the look of the red and may not be keeping the car that long anyway. Is trading in a car every three or four years the best thing to do with your money, no. Does that make you a foolish buyer (again as some Sonata owners have posted over and over again), NO. It makes you someone who chose what you wanted over what was most economical.

Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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