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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You want to talk about the Passat. Fine. You have ignored multiple opportunities and requests to engage in that discussion, in order to harp on the people who like the Sonata. Here is a suggestion: IGNORE THOSE POSTS IF YOU DON'T LIKE THEM. Did it occur to you that you are feeding the very behavior that you don't like?
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Backy, the Passat certainly does appear on the masthead of this discussion, of which I am aware. And honestly, I think it belongs there. My only point of contention was that you placed top end Camrys and Passats in the same price class and made the allusion that this generation of Camry is more expensive than the previous generation, when in many cases, thats not true. That's all.

    Camry ranges from $18,850 for a CE 2.4L 4 5M to $31,700 for a very tricked out XLE 3.5L V6 6A (In area code 19146, and including the following options: Heated Seats, VSC, Smart Key, Navigation, Sirius radio, 5 piece mat set, Glass Breakage Sensor, First Aid Kit).

    ~alpha
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Apparently there are 'attempts' to do so ( add premiums ) in the regions where Toyota has 'less influence' in the local marketing, SET and GST for example. The Camry is the center of the world for Toyota here. Everything revolves around it ( note how quickly TMS jumped on the 160 vehicle issue).

    IMO anything that looks like it might besmirch the Camry image, like the perception of taking advantage of high demand, is quickly dealt with even though Toyota legally has no control over what happens at the local level.

    Initial reports on the other boards indicate 36-38 mpg is a typical range of fuel economy ( ~2.7 GPC ). Yes it is very early so the statistics are anecdotal presently. However since the HSD has been in use now for 10 yrs ( 6 yrs here ) and hundreds of thousands of drivers here use it on a daily basis the FE results can be predicted fairly accurately.; c.f. my posts #843 & #848 on the 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid board.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Camrys and Passats are in the same price class for a large range of pricing, i.e. $23k-$32k. Passats go beyond that range, since VW doesn't have anything like the Avalon, so the Passat must satisfy that market also.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The "typical" fuel economy range you stated for the TCH would mean that the Camry would be the first HSD vehicle to routinely meet or exceed its EPA numbers in real-world driving. So I think I will wait for more real-world experience reports before I agree that the Camry can typically average 37 mpg in real-world driving.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Just as reference point, in case some readers here want to know more aobut the TCH and competitors-

    I believe it was Automobile magazine that recently tested a Camry 4 and a Camry Hybrid over the same terrain/course, averaging 37 MPG in the TCH and 31 MPG in the 4. I believe this was more of a Highway loop and not "Overall", but provides a comparison between the two nonetheless.

    Also, Car and Driver's June issue has a great 'Short Take' on the TCH very positive overall, (except I thought braking distances were disappointing, especially compared to the SE 4 5M already tested).

    And finally, Road and Track's May issue had a great article on the Camry SE V6 and Camry Hybrid (along with the Ford Escape V6 and Hybrid, and Civic EX and Hybrid).

    ~alpha
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    For the last 2 months I am just at EPA Values in the Prius.

    The reported values on hybrids on most boards and the GH database for example indicate that while the EPA values are 'perfect condition' values most drivers are attaining just under the EPA Highway value as a combined driving result.

    Prius II 48.5 mpg mean (GH) vs 51 mpg (EPA)
    HH.......26 mpg mean (GH) vs 28 (EPA)
    400h......25 mpg mean (GH) vs 27 (EPA)

    The GH database values consider full year driving in all conditions including winter driving and highspeed highway driving, each of which deteriorates FE by least 10%. Neither is taken into account in the EPA testing.

    With advances in knowledge and technology in the TCH I would not at all be shocked to see GH values on the database to show the mean FE to be in the 36-38 mpg range.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, but the EPA Highway value is the lower of the two values for the Prius (and the TCH). So the EPA combined mpg for the Prius and TCH is higher than the highway rating. Meaning in the real world, drivers are not achieving the EPA combined rating for the Prius. Another data point, CR achieved a 44 mpg average in their tests of the Prius. So it will be interesting to see what they achieve with the TCH.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    "Who cares anymore about why someone bought their Sonata? We have all heard your love stories already. Do you talk about it everyday when you say goodbye to your children for school and around the dinner table at night and right before they go too bed?"

    With all due respect, the above is very inconsiderate and extremely rude.

    "Who cares anymore about why someone bought their _______ (fill in the blanks)" - not only insenstitive but childish at the same time. Regardless of the trim/model/brand, someone cares so I would suggest you move away from the personal attacks. I don't know much about you but what if people said the same thing regarding the car you purchased - I don't think that would be fun.

    Everyone has difference perference, and not everyone shares the same likes/dislikes as you...if someone wants to talk about a midsize car in this forum, I don't see why you have any reasons to discourage it...
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    backy, I only get to come on periodically during the day. I am not intentionally trying to overlook the Passat comments. I do believe the vehicle competes with the upper end Camcords because as others stated it sells in the $23K - $30K range and it comes very well equiped. It slants on the premium niche were the upper level Camcords due as well.

    I am intrigued by hybrid cars. I would love for someone to offer a hybird diesal midsive in the US. I think that be great.

    Joe97, I am not even going to bother responding. If you are privy to the discussion as I have been since its inception, you'd know that they are plenty that share my same frustration. The point being is I specified the Sonata for a reason. You cannot add in any car to it. It is just in reference to that car specifically. I will not perpetuate the situation by continuing down this road though. Take it as you will. Interesting though you'd comment on it since you are a Sonata fan (nothing wrong with that) and post in a lot of Sonata forums.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Corect but also a weakness and fallacy in the analysis of the EPA values.

    Please refer to my last point in post #843. The EPA for lack of better data 'assumes' ( we all know what that makes of you and me ) that we all drive 50/50 between city and highway. Huge error on their part.

    My actual driving is 85% Highway and 15% City at about 60 mph on average. Thus my weighted EPA combined should be about 52 mpg combined. EPA conditions: about 50 mph in flat terrain with no wind and moderate temps. I'm just at 51-52 mpg since the weather warmed.

    The CR report from a couple of years back:
    One test and one data point are extremely, extemely anecdotal just a s mine above is. Overall GH is a much better source statistically since it includes thousands of data points and it's margin of error is minimal. After this year's brouhaha over the CR article about hybrids do you think a lot of people still consider it to be relevent in assessing hybrids? The next analysis CR makes will be scrutinized so closely due to their huge 'Ooops' this year that the printers will sweat.

    A data base with thousands of data points and millions of miles is much more useful. Note CR makes no mention at all of this source. Does it appear that they might be wearing blinders?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I am intrigued by hybrid cars. I would love for someone to offer a hybird diesal midsive in the US. I think that be great

    A link to Toyota Georgetown's website concering hybrids:

    http://www.toyotageorgetown.com/hybrid/index.asp

    Note that they acknowledge a 'discussion' in-house about which fuel to use but all agree that the hybrid technology should and can be used as a 'multiplier' no matter which fuel source is used ( page 4 of the link).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    A data base with thousands of data points and millions of miles is much more useful.

    I agree. Which is why I will wait for more real-world data before assuming the TCH will average 37 mpg in real-world driving.
  • tncarmantncarman Member Posts: 82
    I was recently at a car show and I found myself in the Mercury exhibit quite a bit. I thought the Milan looked great and the fit and finished wasn't bad, espicially for an American car. What does everyone else think? I don't see that many on the roads.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I like the Milan, but I don't like it enough compared to the Sonata to pay the extra $$$$. If they were comparably priced out-the-door, with similar equipment including ABS and side bags/curtains, it would be a real tough decision for me. It would help if Ford offered a better warranty.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I think the Milan is a heck of a nice car. I liked a few more things about the Sonata. In the end, I had a bit more confidence in the Sonata's quality and warranty. This sector is so competitive that it doesn't have any duds. They are all great cars. I think the very best is only a smidgen better than the worst.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Agreed.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Maybe you were at the Milan exhibit more because the girls were hotter there than at the other displays.

    Or were there male models there considering Mercury seems to be courting the female buyer morewso with the Milan vs. the Fusion?

    Either way, Milan is less than a hit, which is why you don't see many on the road. I see more Zephyrs (is that what they're calling them now?)
  • tncarmantncarman Member Posts: 82
    Now that i think of it, yea, there were women around there. But didn't they change the Zephyr to the MKZ? Or is that next year?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually, the Nissan exihibit (in Chicago) had far and away the best-looking women reps, IMO. I spent a lot of time there, asking lots of questions. ;)

    The Mercury exhibit had an older gentleman (local sales rep I think) who was quite helpful and remembered with me those halcyon days when most cars had foldaway side mirrors--something the newest mid-sizers like Fulan, Sonata, and Camry have ditched in the name of, I assume, cost savings.

    I like the Milan better than the Fusion mainly because the grille and tail are more subdued (and do not share a name and five bright metal bars with a razor), and the "base" interior on the Milan is much nicer (albeit costlier). All I would need added to the base Milan is the ABS and side bag packages.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    tncarman, the Milan is well respected in these forums. It may not sell much but it gets a lot of respect like the Subaru Legacy.

    For model year 2007 it will come with most of the Sonata's standard safety equiptment. I don't believe the MSRP of the Milan and Sonata are that far apart though transaction prices for the Sonata are probably lower due to the high incentives on the Sonata while the Milan has had minimal fleet sales. The trade off there depends on how long you are goign to keep the car. The Milan's resale value should be significantly better. Dispite what might be said to the contrary, due to the high fleet sales, the lower transaction amount will not offset the lesser resale value completely.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    First, the Milan has had pretty high incentives also--subsidized leases and rebates. So prices on the I4s are getting pretty close to those of the Sonata, although the Sonata has the advantage still in standard safety equipment. V6 incentives are better on the Sonata. Second, the Milan is in fleets. Once the Taurus and Sable exit this fall, it will be interesting to see if Ford sells more Fulans to fleets or greatly restricts sales to that channel.

    If you have any facts to back up your assertion that lower transaction amounts will not offest lesser resale values, I would like to see them. This has not been my personal experience.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    The starting Sonata GL MSRP is $18,495 while the Milan is $18,995 (both including destination) but has a power driver's seat and heated outside mirrors. When you figure in discounts, the Sonata price gap will increase but as aforementioned at the cost of resale value.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Sonata has heated mirrors also. Also ABS, side bags/curtains, and ESC. What is the price of the Milan with those options added (or is ESC still not available on the Milan)?
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    I believe that it has been published that those safety features will be standard for model year 2007 and I don't believe there will be a significant pricing increase if there is an increase at all.

    Good call, I missed that the base Sonata has heated mirrors as well. The interior of the Milan I like a lot more, just a personal opinion, especially if you get the two tone leather and mahogany wood package. Real nice.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    On the Ford Fusion/ Mercury Milan board it was posted today the following by my friend mschmai:

    Major news for the 07 Fusion:

    Safety and Security package become standard on every Fusion.

    The SE Sport Package (wheels and 6 CD) becomes standard on SE 4 and 6

    The SEL premium package (autolamp dash treatment) becomes standard on SEL 4 and 6.

    And also in another recent post by ryguy1718:

    hey guys,

    I work at a ford dealer,
    The ordering guide came out yesterday for the 07 fusion's.

    Here are the Job #2 Changes,

    All wheel drive
    Dvd Navi

    It seems like ford got the message

    The Milan gets the same features as the Fusion so the safety features are there as well as nav and AWD which the competition doesn't really offer. It gives these two cars a good edge.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If the safety stuff can be added with little/no price increase that will be a big boost to the Fulan. But it looks like ESC will still not be available, or at least not standard. AWD should help boost sales in the snowbelt. Navi seems to be becoming a necessary option in this class... wonder when Chevy, Hyundai, Kia et. al. will ante up (in the U.S.)?
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    I think the demand for nav is interesting. Very few get it but it is almost like a feature that people like to know they have the option of. They look at the technology offered and assume a car is more premium by the offerings even though they don't get it.

    The ESC isn't offered but the safety benefits of it may not be that great. I don't know, but it seems like safety is very close these days like reliability.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yeah, I don't know how I have survived all these years without nav. Maps, and a good sense of direction, I guess.

    I know some studies have been posted, if not here someplace in Town Hall, about the benefits of ESC in accident avoidance. I think the IIHS did some work on that. Anyway, when it comes to safety I'll take every advantage I can get. If ESC is readily available and not too pricey, I'll take it. Overall, car safety has improved a lot in the last few years; the IIHS has even delegated frontal crash tests to the automakers to concentrate on other stuff.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    I like to be safe as much as the next guy. I just love performance and style a little more than the next guy. I wouldn't buy a Fusion because it does not come with manu-shift, but nothing in regards to the safety issue. I mean the new Merc has a lane change warning system and rear lights that blink wildly when the brakes are slammed on that they have proven through testing can decrease accidents. Will it sway my buying decision? No. As long as I can safely walk away, I'll be good in something that performs and looks like temptation itself.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    With the demand for navigation, especially the passion expressed in forums, you'd think people can't go to Mapquest as easily as they can Edmunds. :P
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Here you will appreciate this from the european Ins Inst.

    http://www.theautochannel.com/link.html?http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_r- - atings/introduction.php

    The recommendation is that Europeans should never buy a vehicle that doesn't have Stability Control. Click Recommendation then click the links.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    Stability control will help you out in a swerving accident situation by applying brakes to individual wheels to correct the swerve. It compensates for over steering and under steering. I have been in a couple situations where me and the Mazda6 (named Kecia) have had to swerve to avoid an accident and been fine doing so. The Mazda6 dances around the road at a touch of the wheel. ESC doesn't move my buying decision. I am more worried about skidding into something on these New England roads in the winter or being hit by some fool working his navigation screen or readiing while driving. I can see why someone would want it, it just doesn't move the needle for me.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    I know some studies have been posted, if not here someplace in Town Hall, about the benefits of ESC in accident avoidance. I think the IIHS did some work on that.

    Here's a few links about ESC for you:

    NHTSA

    NHTSA ESC Research

    IIHS Report(pdf)
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I have been in a couple situations where me and the Mazda6 (named Kecia) have had to swerve to avoid an accident and been fine doing so. The Mazda6 dances around the road at a touch of the wheel. ESC doesn't move my buying decision.

    Amen. I'm not one who will add ESC as an option to a car (most of them anyway) because I don't feel it's worth it in one regardless of what the studies show. Does my SUV have it? You bet! Buy my Mazda6 does not and it's superb handling and braking more than compensate for my and other's errors.

    I'd really be annoyed if I added it and it intruded too much ruining the driving experience. Hear that Toyota?! :P
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I would be very surprised if the Milan/Fusion has a better resale value than Sonata. In fact, I would be astounded. "Foreign" cars have better resale value than "domestic". A 5 year-old Sonata could have a lot of warranty left, the Milan/Fusion will have none. I can't even imagine it. You'll have to show me more than half-baked theories and projections.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    ESC is not intrusive at all. It doesn't even activate unless you skid. If you like to autocross, simply turn ESC off. ESC can be a life saver even for hot-shot macho drivers. If you think about it, every serious accident is totally unexpected. The NHSTA statistics are very revealing, surprised even me. The data shows that ESC can save hundreds of lives and injuries annually. Avoided accidents aren't even listed, and could be very high. I wouldn't be surprised if insurance rates go down on vehicles with ESC. ESC may even be mandatory just like seat belts some day.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually it is very unlikely a Sonata will have any warranty left, in a resale situation, after 5 years. Unless a transferrable extended warranty was purchased.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think the "intrusive" note was regarding some test reports on the new Camry (C/D?) that complained the VSC was too intrusive. Probably too "intrusive" for these auto mag editors who run up and down mountain passes, but I would expect not too intrusive for the vast majority of the target market of the Camry.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Actually it is very unlikely a Sonata will have any warranty left, in a resale situation, after 5 years. Unless a transferrable extended warranty was purchased.

    It's even less likely I would sell a car with 5 years left on the warranty! :D
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Yesterday, my Hyundai Sonata that I've had for 10 days (a rental from Hertz with just over 1200 miles on the odo), decided that Reverse and Park were no longer appropriate options. The gear shift is stuck in Neutral, with the option to move to drive, but that's.

    It almost seems as though something is wrong with the brake interlock; the brake lights are activated all the time, regardless of pressure on the brakes. Whatever the case, I had to taxi to work and will work out the issue with Hertz later tonight. (The key cannot be removed from the ignition, either.)

    This saddens me- its the fourth Sonata I've had since January and fifth Hyundai (I had a jazzy Azera two calendar weeks ago). All of them served very well, save this recent Sonata.

    Any thoughts, or experience like this one?
    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Don't be too sad... it's a rental car, and it can be fixed.

    I know some trannies have a "limp home" mode that puts it into 2nd gear--had that happen once on a Grand Caravan when a sensor went out. A problem with the brake interlock sounds right, since the key cannot be removed.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Alpha1, it sounds like it went into "safe mode". It's probably something very simple, but it could be complete computer failure?
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    "I would be very surprised if the Milan/Fusion has a better resale value than Sonata. I would be astounded. "Foreign" cars have better resale value than "domestic". "

    Resale values are the product of a couple factors which has been proven by numerous articles with Ford, Toyota, Honda, VW, and GM (too name a few) stating that it is the product of fleet sales and incentives that have the most affect on resale values. Also included in that is demand on used vehicles. Whether a car is domestic r foreign has nothing really to do with it. What has happened to make it seem that way is that foreign cars usually have less incentive, less fleet sales, and higher demand than domestics. The Sonata has had far higher fleet sales and incentives than the Fusion. In fact, I would dare say that the year old Fusion resale is higher than the year old Sonata right now because of the high incentives. If you bought your new Sonata when it came out last year it was $20K, now the same car could be had last month for $17K. The used car retail has to be under $17K for the car you paid $20K for or you'd just buy a new one. The Fusion doesn't have those issues and right now, demand is very close to supply. It had $1K rebate when it came out and it has $1K rebate now.

    It's not as much theories and projections as it is how the used car market works. If you can't believe in Ford and GM, then believe in VW and Honda who have all said the same thing.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    Too piggy back off of backy. Not just the Camry review faults Toyota's VSC but any review of any Lexus product has that as a weakness. There are many people who test drove both the BMW and the IS and felt the difference.

    I don't know if ESC only comes on when you are skidding. Doesn't it also come on in heavy cornering?

    Me and Kecia danced around a Tahoe this morning, even in the rain. I think ESC is a great feature but it just doesn't move the needle for me. Yes, the insurance institute's findings are great, but liek I said before there is all types of new technology that is great on safety in tests. Like the brakes that brake for you if they detect an eminant accident, or the pedals that move, or several other new safety technology. It just doesn't move the needle for me anymore. Side air bags, now that is something that could move the needle. Like I said, I fear more someone running into me then me swerving into an accident.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    People who buy a brand-new model, whether it be a Sonata or Camry or whatever, at near full price should expect to take a bath when they sell it. That is what they paid to be the first on their block with the latest-and-greatest.

    I just laughed to myself when I heard about some dealers selling the all-new Sonata and then the new Azera for list price or more. And some folks bought at that price! The wiser buyers waited.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I am sad though, b/c its an enjoyable car to drive and ride in (not saying its sporty, but it is enjoyable), and its a MAJOR inconvience. Even if it is in "limp-home" mode, the issue was only discovered (by my colleague, I actually wasnt driving it) upon parking in our corporate apartment garage... head in... against a concrete wall. No reverse leaves very few options except a tow truck... I just dont have time for the pain of coordinating Hertz's efforts!

    :P

    But yea, glad its not mine.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I don't know if ESC only comes on when you are skidding. Doesn't it also come on in heavy cornering?

    No, unless you lose control. The professional drivers can live on the edge of 'loss of control' but not your everyday driver with family in the car.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    driverdm, That's a whole lot of words to explain a simple thing like resale value. I don't think the average used car buyer would have any idea about what you are talking about. If I were a used car salesman or appraiser, I would take all of your wisdom into consideration. But I only need to sell 1 car every 10 years, and it's not that hard to get the price you want. If a car is clean, looks nice, drives nice, and has a solid reputation, it will fetch a fair price. The last car I sold was 11 years old, and worth practically nothing according to "conventional wisdom". I got a very good price for it because the owner was pleased that it was a "1 owner car and well taken care of", ran perfectly, and looked very nice. I have even been bugged by people for 2-3 years asking me to "let me know when you want to sell that car". Oops! That's a lot of words. Sorry! :blush:
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    No, unless you lose control. The professional drivers can live on the edge of 'loss of control' but not your everyday driver with family in the car.

    That's not entirely true. Some systems have been noted as coming on too early and ruining some fun. Even the system in our '06 Explorer has been harped on about that but it's an SUV, what do they expect?

    Someone else said you can always turn it off. Well that's not always true either. Some systems still remain on even when you supposedly deactivated them. Toyota comes to mind again IIRC.

    Maybe it's because of where and how I drive, I just don't see the need for ESC in most cars. Side air bags and curtains, ABS, door beams, I'll gladly pay for.
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