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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    C/D's Short Take on the TCH. I think overall observed MPG of 33 is pretty decent, given their affinity to driving hard.

    Stability control, ABS, airbags/curtains... all standard on the TCH.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroadtests/11035/short-take-review-2007-toyota-c- amry-hybrid.html

    ~alpha
  • cxccxc Member Posts: 122
    Hyundai Azera Wins AutoPacific 2006 Vehicle Satisfaction Award for Large Cars -- Also Top-Ranked Car: "The satisfaction results for the all-new Hyundai Azera prove that Hyundai is serious about selling top class products. In its first year on the market, Azera achieves not only a class win, but is the highest scoring passenger car ahead of vaunted Premium Luxury Cars like the Lexus LS, Jaguar XJ and Mercedes S-Class. The fact that these cars are twice the price of an Azera is just icing on the cake."

    Azera is a better deal than either Accord V6 or Camry V6.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    And Mercury Milan wins top mid sized car in the same AutoPacific 2006 Vehicle Satisfaction.

    Azera might compete in the top end of this class on a price basis, but it is considered a large car, not a mid size.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Azera is a better deal than either Accord V6 or Camry V6.

    To you, anyway. Some people value economy and acceleration over size, and are willing to pay for it. (22MPG vs 19MPG and 0-60 about a sec. quicker in the Camry). This isn't my particular view, but I'm playing devil's advocate.
  • steve333steve333 Member Posts: 201
    That means nothing. All it means is that people who buy Hyundais need to convince everyone that they aren't fools. Yeh, my cars the greatest, love those Hyundais. Give me a break.

    By the way, you want to know how good a car is, ask a mechanic. My mechanic says Hyundai's are crap and he had one on his lift and showed me a part of the steering system that had to be replaced. He said it was junk. he also noted that the customer refused to bring it to Hyndai to have it replaced so they came to him and paid him even though it was under warranty.

    What car did he recommend? The Chevy Impala!
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Ask a mechanic? Are you saying mechanics are smarter than the average person? Or are you saying mechanics are less biased than the average person? As an X-mechanic, I have known dozens, and a lot of them became mechanics because they weren't exactly, how can I say it politely... college material? Most young mechanics I knew had 1 favorite badge, and the rest were crap. The Azera may not be the legend that Lexus is, but it certainly isn't "crap".
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Interesting... a survey of thousands of owners means nothing, but the opinion of one mechanic means a lot. And his idea of the best car in this class is the Chevy Impala. Okee-doke.
  • cxccxc Member Posts: 122
    Yes, people value cars differently:

    2007 BMW 530i - 19/27 mpg; 0-60 mph 6.7s
    2007 Camry V6 - 22/31 mpg; 0-60 mph 6.5s
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    And you'll have the usual people on this thread (the you're not allowed to say anything disparaging against Hyundais - you must like and accept them!) tell you how silly you are and your opinion should be discounted.

    I don't think Hyundais are crap, but I'd never buy one. But I like the Impala, but would never buy one either. No brainer - buy Hondas.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,251
    which one wins the ugly contest? ;)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    And you have people bashing Hyundais with ignorance (and without much substance). I myself was a non-believer until just a few years ago...long story short, Hyundai has truly flourished as of late. Not only their cars overall are competitive, qualities are at the top of the class. Generally, when you produce good and quality cars, satisfaction for today's award for Azera is easily explained (which won overall satisfaction for all new car models and luxury/large segment). Adding to the unbeatable combination of value, safety commitment, warranty, and price, no wonder Hyundais are drawing so much attention, in many good ways.

    While in the minority, some people continue to call Hyundais crap because they ignore facts and reality. If anyone is still skeptical about Hyundais, then sorry to say but you are living in the past. Given Hyundai's current models and upcoming onslaught, they made a believer out of me.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    joe97, I agree 100%. Hyundai has come a long way and are making decent cars now-in-days. I wouldn't say that they make the be all, end all cars but their cars are nice. I actually was at a dealership looking to purchase a Sonata. I stepped away because the design, inside and out doesn't float my boat, and the performance isn't there for me. I am eagerly awaiting the New Altima, the Mazda CX-7, and the next Mazda6. I want something a little more premium so the CX-7 tops the list so far.

    On the other hand. You have to admit that there are a lot of Believe-Or-Be-Beaten Hyundai loyalists. Many times when people shoot for the underdog they are more vocal in expressing their satisfaction in their purchase. If you buy a Camry and it is bullet proof... well that is what it is expected and supposed to do anyway. Very few would be so enthused and astounded by it, especially at the price they paid for it. You've got to admit that that does have an influence on these ratings. Same thing with the Milan. Some people gave Mercury a try and seeing that Mercury delivered are estatic about it.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Well, after work today, I contacted Hertz and the Sonata was hauled away.....The tow dude jammed the shift lever into reverse with the aid of tools and the Shift Lock Override, then jammed it back into drive with the tools and Shift Lock Override.. all the while the brake lights were on and any application of the brakes yielded some highly funky noises. Pity, I'm not going to know what went wrong.

    Hertz replaced the sonata with a G6 GTP. It's loaded, priced around 28 or 29 grand new. This is a $28K car? I've driven it about a mile, and miss the Sonata.

    ~alpha
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    "I don't think Hyundais are crap, but I'd never buy one. But I like the Impala, but would never buy one either. No brainer - buy Hondas."

    Though I do not like Hondas. I am with you in spirit, until the Hyundai elite find a way to track my IP and get to my house. Hondas are also great cars. My brother owns a top line Accord that I think is basically a luxury vehicle (he has extra bird's eye maple wood trim kit, sweet). I wouldn't buy one because the design doesn't do it for me and they don't offer a manu-shift but I can't fault anyone for buying one. Let me put it this way. When my brother's old Accord after 170K miles of abuse was stolen, I was the one to tell him he owed Honda another buy.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    Now the G6 is another story. I don't think it is $28K loaded. That would have to violate some type of international laws. The interior does that car in. I had a friend that was comparing it to the Mazda6. It does handle and perform like a Mazda and go after the same niche.. kinda. I told him to sit in both and call me back. Next time I heard from him, he was telling me how he loved his new Mazda. We never discussed the G6 again.

    I know Enterprise rents Mazda6's or used to. I don't see many on the lots any more as I think Mazda has reduced the 6's fleet numbers. If you can get your hands on one, I say get it and have fun. Someone once posted that Mazda's tagline should be the relentless pursuit of fun. I rented a 6 and now there is one in my driveway. The good thing about renting often is you get to experience different cars.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    No, its $28K loaded.... The G6 is a shame because its not ALL bad as far as the interior goes and theres potential for the chassis. The steering wheel feels GINORMOUS, though... wonder if thats something people just get used to.

    Hertz has a few MZ6 rentals. I had a HB in either March or Feb, but it was elderly among rental fleet models, in the 30,000 mile range, so maybe you're right about Mazda reducing rentals. Still felt fairly solid though. I don't think I'd ever buy the MZ6 because the 3 is cheaper, just as fun, not that much smaller inside, gets better mileage, has better resale, etc. I don't rent from Enterprise because the man has a contract with Hertz and Avis, so they are our 'preferred' agents.

    ~alpha
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    I looked at the Mazda3 in comparison to the Mazda6 as well. Though the numbers say something different, the Mazda6 seemed much more roomy. Also with incentives the Mazda6 was a little cheaper than the 3 I was interested in. The 3 has a better interior though. Either is a good choice. The 3 is so big because the next 6 is gaining much more room than the current one. I Mazda can trasnlate the quality and attributes of the current 6 and 3 into an even more luxurious, larger, and fun to drive sedan, they may have a customer yet again.
  • rgray3rgray3 Member Posts: 23
    How come I never see a Hyundai on the road that is more than a few years old?? They have been around a longggg time. They may look nice and be priced low...but will they "survive" more than 4 or 5 years on the road? I know 3 people who have owned them in the past and all 3 will never buy another one. I mentioned how nice the new Azera is and they looked at me like I was CRAZY.... :lemon:

    If these "new" Hyundais are still on the road in good shape in 5 or 7 years I may then consider one..but till then I will stick with Honda/Acura.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    rgray that is a fair position to take. I had two Nissan Altimas in the past that gave me a load of problems. It has left a sour taste in my mouth for Nissan. Even though Nissan has made many quality improvements, once bitten twice shy. To anyone who asks me about a Nissan I tell my car experiences though preface it with the newer ones are supposedly better and how I had a great dealer experience with the several times I was at the Nissan dealer for several fixes. To many Hyundai has done the same as well as GM and Ford. The newer model are significantly better but it will take time for people to see that in their real life experiences and not just reports and statistics.
  • kingsalmonkingsalmon Member Posts: 97
    Also consider when Hyundai started selling more cars. I believe they are selling many times more cars now than in 1998 so give them some time.

    I don't see that many Toyota's from 1998 when compared to new Toyota's. I don't exactly know where the older cars go (used car lot's or junk yards) but there seems to be loads of new cars in Los Angeles but the 5+ year old cars just seems to disappear.

    I believe Hyundai's started drastically improving their quality from 2000-2004. Hyundai's of the 80's and early 90's were basically junk. I just know that my 2005 Hyundai Elantra is the best car I've had thus far (including Honda).

    We'll all just have to wait I guess.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Good point. Hyundai's U.S. sales volume was pitiful in the '90s, so there are few cars from then to be seen. I don't see much of anything in my area from before the '90s anymore (rust belt). I did see a gen 1 Accent from around '95-96 yesterday, looked to be in good shape. I have read owners reports on those that they hold up pretty well--maybe the first solid Hyundai sold in the U.S. The cars from 2000-on are much better due to the quality program you mentioned.

    As for the G6, I drove a loaded one from Hertz recently and liked the tan perforated leather in the car. That was it as far as likes. The car drove and handled without any precision, nowhere like a Mazda6 or even an Accord or Sonata. I wouldn't buy one for half that $28k. I have driven several Mazda6's from Hertz but it has been awhile, so maybe they are buying more Sonatas now since the price is lower, there is more room for passengers etc.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    On the other hand. You have to admit that there are a lot of Believe-Or-Be-Beaten Hyundai loyalists.

    From talking to other Sonata owners, I think you have a bad read on us.

    I don't think the average Hyundai owner is any sort of "loyalist" or "fanboy". I think Sonata owners are pragmatic about cars, and simply want the most quality and features for their hard-earned dollars. I don't think Sonata owners are in awe of badges like many other owners. Personally, if I could trade my 06 Sonata even for an identically equipped Accord or Camry, I would. Fusion or Mazda6... no, but very close.

    Yes, I root for the underdog. But the underdog here is not Hyundai, it's me. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Funny how people who express positive views on one make of car are branded as rabid loyalists, while fans of other makes who are just as vociferous are not.

    I don't know that I would take an Accord over an equally-equipped Sonata. The Accord's ride is a bit too hard for my taste (lots of rough roads where I live and getting worse per a recent study). I like the airy interior of the Sonata also. A Camry? Maybe, but I haven't driven the 2007 Camry yet. I wouldn't take a 2006 Camry over the Sonata. I might take a Mazda6 5-door over the Sonata because the 5-door is more versatile and handles better, but I'm not sure those attributes are worth the extra bucks for my needs. Thing is, all these cars are perfectly fine for family-hauling, so it's possible to shop by price unless there is some overriding requirement like needing AWD or a hatch/wagon.
  • rgray3rgray3 Member Posts: 23
    I am sure the Hyundai 06 compares well to a Honda 06 or Toyota 6. I am sure they both run great now, BUT I am not sure that Hyundai will be "running" in 5 years or more.....

    Do any of you Hyundai guys have one that is older than 5 years and still running great?
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Funny how people who express positive views on one make of car are branded as rabid loyalists, while fans of other makes who are just as vociferous are not.

    Huh? You mean if you're a Hyundai loyalist you get 'the treatment'? I think most cars are great these days, just some greater than others. A car is more about a bunch of features bundled together. Its gotta have SOUL. Does Hyundai have soul? I know Hondas do. Their racing heritage is inspiring.

    It seems most people who visit this board think of their car as more than an appliance.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Soul? I am focused on whether a car meets my needs for the lowest possible price. "Soul" isn't one of my needs. Maybe it is for others. How much is "soul" worth to you? OTOH, if you answer that we would be getting into the topic of buying/selling soul(s) so maybe that's not a good idea. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I just sold a nearly six-year-old Elantra to my sister for 50% of what I paid for it. She was very happy to get it. It runs better than new (gets better fuel economy than when new, and the replacement tires I put on are better than the OEM Michelins). The interior looks new except for some grime on the floor mats. The exterior has glossy paint, but does have a few little touched-up scratches from parking lot encounters.

    With experiences like that, do you still wonder why some people have no problem seriously considering a Sonata, which is light years aheads of that '01 Elantra?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Plenty, actually. My neighbor is a good example, he owns a '98 Sonata V6, and by my count, that's eight solid years. It still runs great; in fact, I was just in it the other day when he gave me a ride to work. Other than regular maintaining, it has been in the shop for exactly one time - for a fender-bender accident which they did a fantastic job (you wouldn't know if this car has ever been in one).

    I personally have seen quite a few older generations of Hyundais.

    "I am sure the Hyundai 06 compares well to a Honda 06 or Toyota 6. I am sure they both run great now, BUT I am not sure that Hyundai will be "running" in 5 years or more..... "

    Come on now, don't be so pessimistic :) I have a friend who has a 06 Sonata and plans to keep at least for five years, I will see you in four years (he's coming to one year ownership) and update you on the progress - I'm more than 99.99% sure if will be running by then :)

    Reliabliity wise, the Sonata is actually one of the top cars out there. The outgoing version acheived the #3 spot (behind Malibu and Alero) in the JD Power's 05 VDS, which measures problems on 3 years old models. More, CR gave the most reliable car nod to the Sonata as well last year. As for initial quality, the Sonata (outgoing version) has consistently finished in top three, along with Malibu, Alero, Jetta - at least once notched the #1 spot. I supsect the 06+ Sonata would follow suit.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Most buyers purchase a Camry, Accord, Sonata, etc as means of basic transportation. Few looks for the race-inspired niche, truth to be told. Personally, I am looking for a Porsche to fill my satisfaction of all-around fun. :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm not sure I'd trust anything that says the Sonata, Accord, and Camry were behind the Malibu and Alero...the previous Malibu (now "Classic") was one of the most problematic cars GM has produced here lately (ever heard one driving down the road WITHOUT a transmission whine or at least 2 brakelights not working?). I'd give the Sonata more credit than that, but I certainly don't think that survey holds very true.

    P.S. the only other car company that seems worse in reliability is VW, and IT made that list. I'm not knocking the Hyundai here, keep in mind everyone, I'm just saying that I don't think that survey does the Hyundai justice.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Come on guys, no matter what the commercials hype, none of these mid-sized cars are "driver's cars". They're nothing more than plush-ed up commuter cars to take Mom to work in comfort, safety, and style. I really laugh when people assign human attributes to their cars. The way I see it, a car is just a way to get from point A to point B with acceptable comfort, safety, style, and economy. Cars are just a tool; sort of a cross between a hammer, a sofa, and a computer. :D

    That said, why are all the cars in this category so refined and good? Because that's the way Mom wants them! ;)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The truth. Keep Mom happy and the family is happy. :)
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Member Posts: 277
    A new Honda Manufacturing plant have been announced for The United States.

    In addition, a new Canadian and ??????? manufacturing plant were announced.

    Honda has announced a new very large American plant to employ over 1,500 workers in response to the spectacular and rising sales of Honda automobiles (Reports are that the Civic is very short in supply). Now the individual states and regions are clamoring for the best deal for Honda -- who will get the prize. :)

    CNN and FOX also headlined the three manufacturing plants in their news reports as being needed to keep up with demand and "spectacular sales).

    Joke! ... Will Honda PASSPORT name be resurrected? Since our Canadian friends will no longer be able to enter the United States (starting in 2007) with just a driver's license and an insurance card...maybe the Canadian Hondas should go back to the name --PASSPORT? ... chuckle!
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    "Soul? I am focused on whether a car meets my needs for the lowest possible price. "Soul" isn't one of my needs."

    backy, that's why you like the Sonata so much. You are only focused on practical needs. That is not why car buyers buy Mecredes, BMW, Audis, Lexus, Mazdas, Subarus, and too some extent Accords, Fusions, etc. They are focused on a "soul", a personality, something that makes the car more than just an assembling of its parts. The Mazda6's qualities to dance on the road, stop on a dime, corner like it was on rails, gives it something more than the practical analysis will lead show. The sweet song the Mustang V8 makes tells you there is something more than metal in front of you. There is an experience waiting to be had. You are also focused on price. For many of us we will pay for that extra attribute, maybe it is styling, maybe it is performance, maybe it is quality.

    joe97, ask your friend what he feels about resale value since he bought his Sonata basically when they came out since you said he is coming up on a year of ownership shortly and he is only looking to keep the car five years.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The truth. Keep Mom happy and the family is happy.

    Bingo! :D:D:D
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Member Posts: 277
    Sonata owners report that the lack of a gasoline tank baffle contributes to the interior noisiness, however, the sloshing sound does go away when the tank gets close to empty!.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I have never once heard the gas sloshing. Maybe my hearing is not as acute as those who hear it. I heard the gas sloshing once while vigorously waxing the trunk lid, so I have no dubt it does slosh. But my interior is so quiet I can hear myself breathing. Some of the roads here are so rough that I occasionally get road noise, but that's understandable.
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    I agree, the times that ive been in a 06 Sonata ive never heard the gas sloshing that some complain about. And with an interior so quiet im sure it would make it self evident.
  • thesniperthesniper Member Posts: 44
    You started the fire again. Don't say anything like it because to some, it's sacrilegious.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    That's interesting. The only vehicle I could tell gas was sloshing in was our Odyssey minivan (probably because it's hatchback architecture makes it easy to hear back there) but it wasn't always heard, as much as it was felt. You could almost swear you'd feel the car swaying forward and backward slightly after abrupt stops when the tank was full. Can you ever "feel" the sloshing? Just curious and thought this might help clarify some things for some readers.

    bobad, this really isn't directed at you since you haven't had the "sloshing" issue at all, it was just convenient to post as a reply to your message! Thanks! :)
  • thesniperthesniper Member Posts: 44
    "If these "new" Hyundais are still on the road in good shape in 5 or 7 years I may then consider one.."

    They will stay on the road 5 to 7 years because their warranty is good for 10 years.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    "Come on guys, no matter what the commercials hype, none of these mid-sized cars are "driver's cars".

    bobad, have you ever driven a Mazda6 or a Subaru Legacy? Have you read the numerous reviews on those two cars? Have you read about the suspension set up in the Mazda6 or about the turbo in teh Legacy GT? Take it from a Mazda6 owner, you don't know what you are saying. Also, read what otehr people on this board who have driven and/or own a Mazda6. Then take a look at the Mazda6 and Subaru forum. There's too much real life experiences to the contrary. Take a hard drive in one of those cars and you'll know why Edmunds said that the Mazda6 is the only car in the group of seven that they'd make excuses to just do out and drive and that would make a smile come to their face every time they saw a curve.

    "The way I see it, a car is just a way to get from point A to point B with acceptable comfort, safety, style, and economy."

    Exactly. That's the way you see it. Others see it different;y and company's cater to that niche. Even Toyota recognizes that there is something to it. That's why they dropped the 268hp V6 in the Camry. That's not for you average everyday Mom driver. Also look at the VW Passat, it too has more too it than just what you can see on a spec sheet. The quality (not to be confused with reliability) is top notch, attention to detail is very high, and luxury (have you seen the pictures with the wood?)is on par with cars much costlier.

    By the way for anyone that is interested you can get the Passat woodgrain in Value Edition models aftermarket. Not the stick on wood kits, the actually wood used in the upper end models from the factory.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    bobad, have you ever driven a Mazda6 or a Subaru Legacy?

    I drove the Mazda6, not the Legacy. I did drive a Lancer EVO, however. That's a Dad car. No way I could get away with buying that little gem.

    Look, I don't put a lot of stock in car magazine reviews. Those guys bow down to the advertising Gods. I have seen them play down weaknesses and highlite strengths on big advertisers over the years. Even CR is not immune to the Money Gods.

    Look, you're preaching to the choir driverdm. I know the Mazda6 is a very nice car. It was my 2nd choice overall. However, it was too noisy and rode too rough for the missus. :cry:

    I admit that both of us like the Mazda's exterior styling a little better than the Sonata, but we prefer the Sonata's clean interior.

    All that said, the car was for my wife, not me. The car had to be smooth and quiet, or it was a no-go.

    And don't tell me a peppy V6 is not for Mom! She absolutely loves it. She was afraid to pass 18 wheelers in our old Mazda, but absolutely OWN's them now. The Sonata has a great 3rd gear from 55-75mph. Zoom zoom zoom! Oops, can I say that? :blush:
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    bobad, this really isn't directed at you since you haven't had the "sloshing" issue at all, it was just convenient to post as a reply to your message! Thanks!

    Aw come on! I don't bite! I can take any criticism as long as it's fair. Things like "the so-and-so car is crap" gets sort of irritating, but I don't let it bother me.
  • chidorochidoro Member Posts: 125
    They will stay on the road 5 to 7 years because their warranty is good for 10 years.

    10 years or 100k is not necessarily 10 years. Hell, it's not even 5 years in my case.
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    The last thing I shop for in a car is the warranty. I expect the car to last. That's why I'll buy a Honda. I'd rather buy a car I KNOW will always be ready than hope the one I bought with the longer warranty performs.

    Plus how many caveats, exclusions, and prorations are in these warranties anyway? The powertrain is the last thing to go out on a car.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    The powertrain is the last to go in a car? I disagree. Heck, in those early 160 Camrys with the tranny issue, it went in about 1000 miles. And just this week, my rental Sonata's tranny went kaput in 1200.... I could make the statement that powertrains are the FIRST thing to go based on this evidence... but that would be absurd!

    ~alpha
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    You are only focused on practical needs.

    Man...if you're not into the 'soul' of cars, why bother to post on these boards? Check out the posts in other forums (BMW, Acura, Subaru) and see the vitality and spirit in the people buying and DRIVING these cars. Even a CamCord or Fusion can be pushed into delivering a racing heartbeat.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If I were focused only on practical needs, I'd buy a used Malibu or Taurus. I like attributes like sharp handling, great stopping power, great styling, etc. But they are not tops on my list (secure handling and stopping power are pretty high, for safety, and the Sonata does very well there, btw). Personally I like the styling of the Sonata and don't like the styling of the Fusion, or the Accord for that matter. The Mustang V8 is a totally impractical car for me now, and with gas prices always rising probably forever. I will have my 3 Series someday, when the kids are gone. I appreciate cars like that but they aren't what I need right now. For those who are willing and able to pay for attributes like performance etc., more power to them.
  • steve333steve333 Member Posts: 201
    Mechanics actually see and know the parts the manufacturers put in, so yes, they know more than you do.
This discussion has been closed.