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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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    jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    If we're going to combine sales, then the sales of the Sonata/Optima siblings should be combined as well.

    Optima sold 4761, so Sonata/Optima sales is 21,800. About the same as the Altima.

    I think Fusion/Milan sales should be combined, but not the Zephyr. That's like combining Accord sales with the TSX and TL. The Fusion/Milan competes in the same category and same price point, but the Zephyr is the entry offering of a luxury brand and is at a different price point.
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    jrock,

    That worked until the new Optima came out. The Optima took a different direction, leaning toward economy. It has a smaller V6, cheaper McPherson strut suspension, and a few more differences. So, I think the Sonata and Optima are no longer "twins".
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Stupid or not... it's been done this way for 20+ yrs. The Taurus/Sable have always been reported this way.

    You are entitled to your opinion though.

    Hey don't worry, your favorite will get there eventually.
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    jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The two are differentiated more than the previous generation, but I still think that they are close enough, especially the volume 4 cylinders.

    The Optima may be a bit more "economy oriented", but at the heart of it, both the Sonata and Optima are mainstream sedans that cater to the same market of buyers. It's Hyundai's two-pronged approach to the same market.

    When doing a sales analysis, I think it's more important to consider whether the two cars compete for the same buyers at the same price point. Engine and platform sharing is less important. For example, the Camry V6 and ES350 have the exact same engine and platform/suspension, but I wouldn't combine their sales.
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The Optima is substantially less car and substantially less money than the Sonata. I don't think they share enough common frame/suspension/engine components to be called "stable mates" like the Fusion and Milan.
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    jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The 4 cyl. versions are essentially the same, other than suspension.

    "Substantially" less money than the Sonata? Perhaps you haven't seen what Sonatas are going for street price. Comparably equipped Optima is about $1000 less MSRP than the Sonata, but the rebates on Sonata are $1500 more. They definitely compete at the same price point.

    I do agree that they are not as close as Fusion/Milan.
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    alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    How is the Optima substantially less car than the Sonata? Because it has a 5 speed automatic transmission which offers a bit better acceleration than the Sonata's 4sp in 4 cylindr versions? Because it hasn't flooded every rental fleet this side of the Pacific?

    You might do well to check out Car and Driver's favorable Short Take in the July issue.

    ~alpha
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    How is the Optima substantially less car than the Sonata? Because it has a 5 speed automatic transmission which offers a bit better acceleration than the Sonata's 4sp in 4 cylindr versions? Because it hasn't flooded every rental fleet this side of the Pacific?

    No, I didn't say that at all. :D

    All I said was the Optima has strut suspension and a smaller V6, both very substantial downgrades. And you're mystifying me with the comment about fleet sales. That's irrelevant to the average car shopper. :confuse:

    I may be wrong, but I think when the 2006.5 Optima's rebates kick in, it will cost substantially less than the Sonata. That's a GOOD thing. The Optima is a darn good car, and lower prices are icing on the cake.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I agree with you bobad; different customers will come to the Optima than the Sonata...

    Optima buyers will likely be those who would cross-shop Sebrings/Stratuses, and once shopped the old Optima/Old Sonata. With a 185 hp engine as the top grade motor, it doesn't even match the 2.7L 200 hp engine that Dodge Stratus rentals have used for many years now. It's four-cylinder is better than those Dodge's though, so I'd say they are likely to share some cross-shoppers (a new Stratus debuts very soon).

    Sonata buyers will likely be cross-shopping more expensive models (Camrys mainly, since they share ride-characteristics, with some Accord buyers mixed in).

    I'm willing to bet that a 2006.5 Optima V6 will cost $1,000+ less than an equally equipped Sonata V6 pretty soon.

    I don't mean to state these statements as fact (something I feel people lose sight of sometimes), they are merely my outlook on the situation.
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    seniorjoseseniorjose Member Posts: 277
    EPA numbers are created in test scenarios in the lab...not on any open highway. Items like how efficient an auto is designed to move through the air are never taken into account. There is NO highway or city loop, but just tests done inside a lab. That is why some autos never reach their EPA numbers and others that beat the numbers. EPA tests do not differentiate between a brick or a air slick design. Mainly the lab tests for hybrids are a joke... no relation to the real world.

    As far as new autos from new companies... remember that the Edsel was once rated a very good car... and so was the Yugo!
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    alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Ok, so 185 horses may not seem amazing, but if they move the car well, I see no problem. According to Car and Driver, last year's 190 horse Camry needed 7.6 seconds to 60, not at the head of the class, but certainly fleet enough for most buyers and definitely in the range of its competition. Also, thegraduate, note that the Kia's 185 horses are SAE certified, the Stratus' 200 horses are not.

    FWIW, the Optima needed only 8.9 seconds to hit 60 with the 4 cylinder and 5A, which is not bad at all (C/D, July 06)

    Have you seen prices on the Sonata V6? I dont know how Kia could make any money if they sell for a GRAND under THAT...Personally, I think the Kia is a bit sharper looking, and it definitely has a more cohesive, stylish, and user-friendly interior than the Sonata. The previous point I was making (albeit poorly) regarding the Sonata's fleet sales was that the Kia may be more desirable in terms of resale if there isnt a glut of the vehicle in the rental market...

    ~alpha
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The previous point I was making (albeit poorly) regarding the Sonata's fleet sales was that the Kia may be more desirable in terms of resale if there isnt a glut of the vehicle in the rental market...

    You made your point well. I just don't think it's relevant. I don't think the average seller or buyer knows or cares beans about fleet sales or the rental market. That data is not collected for the average consumer. It's for dealers, used car salesmen, and insurance companies. When I put my old cars up for sale, I have never once heard a buyer say "WAIT! I've got to go check fleet sales!" :D

    The average buyer is much more interested in a clean used car that has no leaks, everything works, and has obviously been well maintained. Instead of spending all your time worrying over "projected resale value" and "fleet sales", why not spend it wash and waxing your car? It's much more profitable, and less stressful too! :D
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Mainly the lab tests for hybrids are a joke... no relation to the real world.

    This is not correct. The test for the hybrids and the ICE's are exactly the same. The 4c Camry and V6 Camry and hybrid Camry all have exactly the same test. As does the Prius and Corolla and Accord and 300. The test doesn't change only the vehicle does.

    Now what is a problem is that there is a basic misunderstanding of how the tests are done and what they mean to an individual driver. In addition factors such as winter weather, terrain and local traffic conditions are never expressed in any way on the EPA site except 'Your Mileage May Vary'. Big help that is.

    Actually in my Prius I get exactly the EPA values now that the weather has improved taking into account that I drive faster than the speed of the tests.
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Spyder,

    What are your driving impressions of the Prius? Do you ever notice the batteries losing oomph just before the engine kicks back in? Don't you think a hybrid would be a perfect application for a diesel engine? I find hybrids fascinating because they are a great test bed for electric car and battery development. With a few small changes, someone with a short commute could drive for weeks without the IC engine ever kicking in. I'm also wondering if a hybrid will pay you back in fuel savings in its lifetime. Maybe my next car will be a hybrid. Maybe it will HAVE to be a hybrid. :cry:
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    seniorjoseseniorjose Member Posts: 277
    The EPA haqs noted that Hybrid milegae figues are 15-20% too high and that is a conservative estimate. They just do not know how to program the tests for these Rube Goldberg autos.
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    seniorjoseseniorjose Member Posts: 277
    There is no PAYBACK FOR THE HYBRIDS! Their initial cost is about 25-40% and payback figures estimate that you would break even at about 150,000 miles. PLUS...nobody wants to work on them...including the dealer's mechanics. ford gives the mechanics a long fiberglass pole so that the backup mechanic can knock the main mechanic off the electricao charge if they get hung up!

    There is no way anyone could drive weeks only on the battery paCK...ANOTHER MYTH PROMULGATED BY A SALESMAN GETTING FAR OVER MSRP FOR THE HYBRID.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The whole article about the new EPA tests states that the present values are 10-15% overstated on all regular ICE vehicles. This is mainly due to the following factors which are not taken into account in the current EPA tests:
    -high speed driving; over 65 mph
    -winter driving
    -the use of AC

    In MY 2008 all vehicles will have lower EPA values by about 10-15%.

    The Estimate of the hybrids is that the effect will be about 15-20% because
    -in highspeed driving you are driving mostly on the ICE and not gaining as much benefit from the e-motor
    -in winter driving the ICE is in use more due to the need to heat up the cabin etc.
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    njeraldnjerald Member Posts: 689
    There is no PAYBACK FOR THE HYBRIDS!

    I agree except our tax money is used (both federal and state) to subsidize their purchase. That brings them closer to a reasonable break even point, if you pay taxes, which a lot of people don't.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Just heard a report on CBS News that Nissan has told its dealers to stop selling 4-cylinder Altimas (and also Sentra SE-Rs) because the cars are catching fire. The radio report was not too clear, but it had something to do with oil catching fire. I am sure we'll hear more about this in the days ahead. Not good news for Nissan as they try to clear out the old Altimas and make way for the '07s. Also shows that problems can occur even with a time-tested design such as the Altima and its 2.5L engine.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    There is no PAYBACK FOR THE HYBRIDS! Their initial cost is about 25-40% and payback figures estimate that you would break even at about 150,000 miles. PLUS...nobody wants to work on them...including the dealer's mechanics. ford gives the mechanics a long fiberglass pole so that the backup mechanic can knock the main mechanic off the electricao charge if they get hung up!

    There is no way anyone could drive weeks only on the battery paCK...ANOTHER MYTH PROMULGATED BY A SALESMAN GETTING FAR OVER MSRP FOR THE HYBRID.

    his entire post is so weird I can only imagine it was written during happy hour. :P Bottoms up.

    Weeks on a battery pack??? That's a first. I'll take a double :shades:
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Weeks on a battery pack??? That's a first. I'll take a double

    You mean you haven't heard about upcoming plans to charge hybrids overnight on a 120v outlet? Do you live in a cave, spyder? (where else, heh heh!) If your daily city commute is 10 miles or less, it would be do-able even with the current crappy battery technology. You could conceivably go weeks without the IC engine cranking. But, you're the hybrid expert. You tell me what's coming up. ;)
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    bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    As reported elsewhere, Nissan has told their dealers to halt sales of 2006 4 cyl Altima's & Sentra's. They did the right thing by notifying (whatever) government agency and extended the engine portion of the powertrain warranty to 84 months/100K miles, which is still less than Hyundai's 120 month/100K miles on the entire powertrain.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    sorry I missed your original post to which senor was responding. My apologies. I thought the good senor was ranting

    The PHEV option - rumored possibly in the future Gen3. It's rumored so that's all anyone knows except maybe the engineers. It's intriquing as you say for anyone with a 20 mi commote to be able to drive one way in ev-mode on zero fuel and then back in hybrid mode to recharge and do it all over again.

    For longer trips I'd see it being an ev-vehicle for the beginning and a diesel/electric hybrid vehicle ( DEHV ? )for the rest of the trip.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I'd be very excited about combining a hybrid multiplier to an already efficient diesel engine to get 60-70% better fuel economy or even better yet use Biodiesel and use no fossil fuel at all. I'd trade my Prius in a heartbeat if this option - and the fuel - were readily available.

    Regarding the Prius now my commute is nearly perfectly in synch with EPA testing except that I drive a little faster than the speeds at which the tests are done. Reports of my first 17000 miles ( 6 months ) are on GreenHybrid. The weather has a strong effect on fuel economy. -10%

    It's warmer now so the tanks average just over 500 mi on ~10 gal/refill.

    I don't notice any difference in driving performance whether the battery is low ( at startup ) or high ( at the end ). What is counter-intuitive is that the more you drive the higher the charge is on the battery - in most cases - at the end.
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    maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Funny thing is I was at the local Nissan dealership in my area today helping my aunt find a new Altima.

    When I got there all the Altimas on the back lot were running and being tested for engine problems. The sales people wouldn't even allow us to touch the cars...not even to look at window stickers. I mean there were a BUNCH of them literally sitting at the back of the lot running. One ignorant salesmen didn't even know that this recall affects Sentra SE-R models as well.

    I got my aunt a deal on a new Altima...one of the one's that didn't have the engine trouble that is...and in the process the general mananger of the dealership offered me a job as a salesperson. Claiming to be impressed with my knowledge of Nissan's cars... So I ended up helping my aunt get a new Altima (Black 2.5S with Special Edition Pkg, and Premium Pkg) and I landed myself a new summer job. I'm so happy I don't know what to do...

    It worked out great for the both of us...wish me luck

    Also, thought I'd note that only ONE Altima thus far has caught fire...and that Nissan itself issued the recall in order to prevent any other cases that might occur. So far only ONE Altima has really had the problem.
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    goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Gotta say the new Carbon Bronze color on the 06 Accord is just beautiful. What a unique color. Really sweet. As are the EX 17" alloy wheels. Honda designers got style!
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    choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    i'm sorry to say i don't think they do, though it is improving(new civic, upcoming rdx).

    The accord is lets be honest a uncohersive exteriorly designed car(ugliest rear, plain front). I don't know how it had a wikked nickname like bionic cheetah.

    I know some of you loyal accord owners will be angry, but i'm just stating the truth(be upset with the designers, not me).

    The next accord from the spy pictures does not look what the next big mid size sedan should look(looks like a dodge stratus!) in my opinion. Unlike The next altima which looks revolutionary in exterior design.

    Honda needs some new artists
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    styling. Some call the new Accord "beautiful"?? Plain and boring is more like it. Toyota is just now starting to get its feet wet in the styling arena. The new Camry is a good start. I have not gotten used to the frontend yet.. back end is nice and sporty looking. My favorite cars for styling are: Not in any order..

    1. Passat/Jetta
    2. Fusion/Milan
    3. Mazda 6
    4. Altima/Maxima
    5. 300C/Charger
    6. Civic

    Once again, in my opinion.. These cars have styling, soul and character.. And.. so I am not deemed a Honda/Toyota hater.. The Civic styling is a definite step in the right direction for Honda...
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    People don't buy Accords for their looks. They buy them for what is under the hood (best engines in the business) and what's behind the doors (best interior) Beauty is only sheet metal deep, quality goes to the chassis. When I decided to replace my old Accord, it was going to be with a new Accord, even if it looked like an Aztec. That's my opinion.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Where have you seen a spy picture of the Honda Accord that is over a year away? NOWHERE on the net have I seen a "spy" photo of the Accord for 2008; I've just now started seeing spy-shots of the 2007 CR-V due out in the fall of 06. Would you mind sharing where you saw such photos?

    Truth be told, I'm not sure how anyone can be angry with your opinion on the Accord's styling, because your opinion is just as important as the Accord owners. Will it affect how much I like my car? Not one bit. You don't like it, you didn't buy one. I'm not mad! :)

    I have to disagree with your opinion that the new Altima's styling is revolutionary. Evolutionary, yes, but revolutionary? Nah. It has the same bling-bling taillights (lots of chrome in the housing, like a Fusion, and the 2002 Altima), and headlights that are (i'm guessing) supposed to mimic the 350Z? It DOES work better here than on the little Sentra, I'll give you that!

    The interior is a step-up, as it should've been from the start. I like the Altima, I really do. I just don't think it's new design is a huge step forward. Again, I'm not wrong, and you aren't either.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I kind of feel like elroy on this particular subject, especially after being a repeat customer now. I like Accords, as well as Camrys (Camries?). I really can't stand the stylistic "wart" that comes on the new Camry (that bump on the hood/grill), but I know that is is one heck of an automobile, and if it offered more car for the money (quality included) than my Accord, I'd likely be in one right now.

    Hey, I know you aren't a Honda hater, you just disagree with some of the Honda owners, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    I happen to agree with a lot of picks on your list, but I'd have to remove the Maxima, Jetta (looks like a Corolla to me), and Charger, and replace them with something like an S2000, Audi A8, and BMW 330Ci (old model 1999-2005).

    Have a good sunday, folks. I'm outta here!

    :)

    Thegrad
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    When I decided to replace my old Accord, it was going to be with a new Accord, even if it looked like an Aztec.

    Now that's brand loyalty! :)
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    tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    Now that's brand loyalty!

    Wow... it may be more than just brand loyalty. I'm on my second Accord and love them both but an Aztek?? :) I think I would have to draw the line at that point.
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    lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    My opinion is... I'll bet you wouldn't even consider it at that point., regardless of your brand loyalty.
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    People don't buy Accords for their looks. They buy them for what is under the hood

    I never met an Accord owner that bought for the engine.

    Accord and Camry owners are mostly "defensive buyers". They buy the entire package, and the nameplate. Instead of buying a car with beautiful styling, they buy one that's not ugly. Instead of buying one with a sweet mechanicals, they buy one that won't fall apart. People absolutely hate unreliable cars, and will pay big bucks for the just the perception and reputation of reliability. Luckily, for the most part, they get what they pay for!

    If Accord and Camry would start making their engines from pot metal for 2008, and started crumbling by the thousands, people would still line up to buy them because of their reputation. It's obvious that people are creatures of great loyalty and faith.

    Having said that, I agree the Accord's engine is wonderful. But so is the Camry's, and the Altima's. And the Sonata's 3.3 Lambda V6 is quickly proving it's worthy to join that elite group.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Instead of buying one with a sweet mechanicals, they buy one that won't fall apart.

    I think I got both, thank you very much. :)

    The Accord I-4 has been renowned as one of, if not the best 4-cylinder engines mass produced. It is smoother than many V-6s, and produces plenty of power for the MPG it delivers. One the "won't fall apart" front, I have kept my 1996, which is living proof of what you stated...it still runs, and very smoothly, I might add. It is still buzz free up to 4,000 RPM, and only then does it get a little boomy. It's solid though, like you said, and I feel like we DO get what we pay for (again, just like you said)

    The window sticker on my 1996 LX Accord lists the price at $19k, with my EX being $23,800 (sticker, not what we actually paid). Considering how much improved these cars are from ten years ago, and how the price really hasn't changed much despite the ever rising cost of most products, I'd say my car was a better deal now in 2006 than the old 1996 sitting in the driveway.
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    goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Honda needs some new artists

    Yea - I agree the 06 Accord's design has aged beyond it's appeal - I do love the Carbon Bronze color tho!

    Honda's redesign of the Accord for 08 seems like ages away considering every other car in this comparo has been redone to take into account all the changes since 2001 (about when the 2003-7 Accord was born). The Sports4 concept of the new Accord looks beautiful - but kinda looks like a big Civic. May be a little too sleek for this class, but the world is changing.
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    tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    I know people try to speak for others but I'm not sure it is really possible. Opinions are fine, however, so I'll share mine as an actual Accord owner.

    I'm one of those owners who is loyal because of my experiences. I owned a Nissan (Datsun at the time) and a Toyota. The Datsun had a major issue after 5 years and I've never given Nissan much thought after that. Short-sighted? Maybe, but it's my choice based on my experience.

    I bought a new Accord in 95 because I felt that I got more for the money over the Camry. Everything I read at the time confirmed that. Actually, I went back and forth between the Accord and the Mazda 626. It just turned 213,000 miles so I can't complain at all.

    That was a major reason why I bought the 06 Accord a few months ago. However, I also liked how it looked. And my opinion (that seems to be shared by many) is that the interior is superb.

    I'm in a lot of rental cars and Hyundai, Chevy, Kia, Dodge, and Toyota don't impress me at all. The Camry comes closer than the others though.

    Now if I didn't have a family, I'd certainly be looking at other options. I wasn't buying Accords when I was young and single. In fact, it almost killed me to buy something with 4 doors in 95! However, at this stage in my life, I'm quite content. Time will tell if this car will hold up as well as the old one but I'm willing to take that chance.
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    booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Time will tell if this car will hold up as well as the old one but I'm willing to take that chance

    Pretty darn good odds of that!

    The Accord interior is TOPS in this class. I think the exterior does need new life tho. Almost Paddles! Clear!
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    philliplcphilliplc Member Posts: 136
    IMO current accord still looks much better than 07 camry. exterior on 06 is not even close to out of style yet.
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    choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    http://www.autoblog.com/2006/06/03/honda-fit-accord-and-cr-v-spotted-on-chinese-- site/

    just click on that. Look at the wheels area and where it bulges(Stratus). And like we had a discussion before i can't be a hypocrite and accuse of copying(because every car does from each other) , but why try to get ideas from a car like the ex stratus is beyond me. Maybe it is still the concept version shown but it does not look that great in my opinion(like someone said as well, looks like an overstretched civic(maybe a good thing or bad, doesn't have the grown up feel though if so).

    all that being said about the exterior, i'm sure it will be like the current honda, and have a very nicely made engine, interior, quality, hopefully the brakes are good for once. However i know it will be expensive like the camry, and now with so many other viable cheaper alter(sonata, mazda6, new altima) that are just as comparable, it wont' sell like fruitcakes as previous.
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    goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Not gonna touch this - anyone else?
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Be careful, you seem to be trying to disagree with me, but I think we're 99.9% in agreement.

    I wasn't talking about 4cyl engines, but you're right. the Honda 4 is a hella great engine. I have another modern day classic in my garage. A Toyota 22RE! It's 14 years old and runs flawlessly, and always has.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Here's my thought for each of the 3 pictures:

    Fit: looks like Malibu's front end with current Fit's rear end glued together.

    Accord: like a Civic on steroed (pretty sure I am not the only one thinking this way).

    CR-V: I am pretty sure this one is photoshopped because it looks like an Acura RDX with a butt-ugly front end.

    If these pictures are real then I'll have to ask: has Honda's designers gone mad??? :cry:
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Careful what you take from these previews. If you'll read closely, it says the "Accord that is soon to be released in Japan"...this would be our Acura TSX, not the US Honda Accord. It is widely held info that the Sports4 concept (which looks like the picture you gave a link to) will be the Japan/Euro Accord and US Acura TSX.

    Also,

    I think you meant hotcakes, not fruitcakes. ;)

    There are many competitors that cost less, but if they were just as good as Accord, they'd be able to sell at the price of an Accord. On the same logic, if the Accord wasn't any better than these competitors, it wouldn't have the pricetag that it does, because noone would buy it (which is about $25k for a loaded EX-V6 w/o Navi at the current market prices).
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    alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    The Chinese Camry doesn't have the bulge-nose. Note the invisible seamless hood-line along the grill. Looks much sleeker and more integrated than the US model, more like a Passat. Take a look... takes a while to load:

    www.guangzhoutoyota.com.cn
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Looks like the only difference is the exterior. Here are some pictures:

    image
    image
    image
    image

    I've gotta say the black interior looks pretty good though.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Looks like the new Passat on the front, and I like this better than the "bumpy" nose of the US Camry.
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    alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    Makes me wonder why manufacturers fiddle with their cars to make them ugly for the US market. The previous model Japanese export Maxima (and domestic Cifero) were far better looking than the uglified US version. The Japanese and Asian-market Mitsubishi Galant have a streamlined hood and grill without that horrible bone in it's nose, making it a much more appealing car than the one Mitsubishi sells here. I think the Camry looks positively ugly with that snout, and the visible hood lines between the grill and hood.
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    alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    Talking about ugly cars, I found these Asian website pictures of what appear to be Dodges. Someone must have exhumed some Chrysler graveyards from the '50s. Makes the 300C look almost pretty by comparison.

    Whatever you do, do NOT click on the Pontiac at the top of the page. ;)

    http://picture.auto.sohu.com/@category_c53764_p1.html
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