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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    The Honda inline 4-cylinder is a wonderful engine, as is the Toyota 22RE. However, there are a number of smooth and reliable inline-4's out there, but they generally don't get the publicity due to their relative small production numbers compared to the Japanese makes. This includes the SAAB-built 2.0L SOHC and DOHC Inline-4 used in the Classic 900 series. Smooth and very reliable, many with proper care go over 500K before any major maintenance. And, don't discount the older Volvo Inline-4 as well; it was so reliable that Volvo-Penta used it as a industrial and marine engine. It certainly wasn't a terribly smooth engine, but reliable was its forte. It had more sq. in. of main bearing area than a Chevy 350 cu.in. V8!
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The front looks just like the Civic (nothing like a Stratus). I doubt very much the Accord will look anything like that picture anyway. The 08 Accord will sell (like HOTCAKES NOT FRUITCAKES) for what it is (quality), not what it looks like (whatever that may be).
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I heard a Toyota commercial on the radio today that made me chuckle and wonder. The commercial talked all about the revolutionary Toyota quality and reliability. Also how not to be mislead by other carmakers incentives and claims to quality/reliability. How the higher price paid for a Toyota is worth the value and its ok to pay higher prices for Toyota. I wonder, are consumers getting smarter? are sales stagnent at Toyota or not rising as fast as they would like? Is Hyundai getting to Toyota with the Sonata? Ford with the Fusion/Milan? GM with the G6/Impala? Mazda with the 6? Passat?
    Are the news stories on the internet starting to take thier toll about increased recalls? reliaiblity issues that have popped up on Tundra? and Camry? Avalon? This commercial almost sounded desperate. Desperate for people to follow blindly to Toyota and just believe.. :surprise:
  • beantownbeantown Member Posts: 228
    are sales stagnent at Toyota or not rising as fast as they would like?

    Doubtful....the Camry and Corolla are the top 2 in car sales in the U.S. right now. And the new, redesigned Rav4 is dwarfing prior sales numbers. I don't think Toyota is struggling at all.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Desperate for people to follow blindly to Toyota and just believe

    Sounds like that's what you'd like to believe. Toyota can bank on their reputation, something every one of the others makers you listed can't, but would give their left one for.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Listening to commercials as if they were onsite news reports is slightly......naive.

    A major purpose of a commercial is to generate traffic .. nothing else. Furniture stores have been 'going out of business for 40 yrs' 'Last chance' ( on this particular shipment of inventory ;) )

    Retailing is based on getting the most foot traffic into a sales environment.
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    Toyota can bank on their reputation

    Isn't this what thousands of other top shelf companies do every day? Of course. And a reputation as strong as Toyota's doesn't happen with one or two good models and one or two good sales years. They've earned their top tier rep.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    <with one or two good models and one or two good sales years.

    ...nor without some attitudinal help from the media folks through the years to mitigate problems which Toyota did (does) have like most companies with their cars. But when the media downplays the problems there and plays them up elsewhere for other companies, the public's opinion is affected. (Can you say "sludge, hesitations, etc.?) That's my opinion based on years of observation.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    Toyota absolutely earned their reputation for quality over 30 years. Hyundai also earned their reputation for junk over 20 years.

    Suddenly the new Hyundais are top quality and nothing like the junk of the past, but it will take years to shake their bad reputation.

    Paradoxically, suddenly the new Toyotas are inferior quality and really nothing like their high-quality forebearers, and it will take a few less years to shake their good reputation.

    Having scratched below the surface of these new Toyotas and taken them apart just like I did the older Toyotas, I am convinced that the quality has been compromised.

    Take a look at the engine mounts, suspension components and other components on the new Hyundais, and they have obviously been copied from the designs of the quality Toyotas of yore.

    The press, however, does tend to side with the perceived winner of the day.

    If Toyota doesn't pull it's socks up, what is happening to GM today will happen to Toyota tomorrow. The mighty shall fall again.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    One problem with many cars is they cheapen the quality of certain parts as they go along because the public won't know the difference, they hope, and they decontent the car of certain options thinking the public won't notice. And most don't.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    They've earned their top tier rep.

    Yes they have!

    Problem is, Toyota could start making pure junk it wouldn't change a thing for years. Many owners have developed such firece loyalty they would keep buying Toyota and go down with the ship. Yes, a good 15 year record is important to know, but not as important as a good 2 year or 1 year record.

    No, I'm not saying Toyota makes bad cars. In spite of the recent sniping, I think they make great cars. My point is, don't buy a car on past history alone. Always check for current problems. Eveven Toyota or Honda could have an off year on certain cars, as recent events indicate.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    If Toyota doesn't pull it's socks up, what is happening to GM today will happen to Toyota tomorrow. The mighty shall fall again.

    Toyota isn't bulletproof, but they will never go down the tubes like GM. It took many years of unions, government regulations, and management apathy to bring GM down to current levels. Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, are too light on their feet to fall into the same type of quagmire that GM did.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually Toyota helps to 'downplay' or mitigate the potential bad press by jumping on things right away. Problems don't get out of hand where masses of irate customers and victims have to take them to court to sue for damages.

    If the worst case scenario for Toyota was the 'sludged V6's' in the late 90's then they learned a valuable lesson about responding before a problem becomes a firestorm; literally a la the Exploder fiasco.

    The 'hesitations' to which you refer is a performance issue similar to saying 'I wish the 4c had more oomph'. It is not a safety issue and not a recall issue. It should/might be improved.

    But... what if.. all electronic engines/tranny's - from all manufacturers - in the future are made with these electronic interfaces. Those that haven't gone through this learning curve as Toyota and Lexus are now doing will be that much further behind. Will you want to buy a Chrysler with its exemplary rep on transmissions when it tells you that it's gone fully electronic?

    I consider that Toyota has taken this step to advance the state of engineering in engines, throttle, transmissions and emissions since it knows it's own capabilities and is wlling to make itself the trial horse for the industry. In a few years after Toyota has ironed out the wrinkles then the others can follow behind with their own versions.

    I see it as Toyota saying that it can handle the initial resistance since down the road the electronic vehicle will be the vehicle of the future.

    You don't have to agree ... but are you ready to bet against Toyota?? I wouldn't.
  • alan_salan_s Member Posts: 362
    I disagree on one point. A 1 to 2 sec throttle response delay IS a safety issue, and it did get me into trouble - twice. 2 seconds may not sound like a lot, but try a gas-on gas-off and gas-on situation as you are trying to nudge into traffic, and you have a 4 second delay followed by a non-linear surge of power when you least expect it!
    Drive a Nissan or Honda who also have up to the minute DBW systems and then drive a new model Toyota and you will see who got it right and who got it WRONG!
    When a user has to adapt on the fly to a non-linear variable machine, the machine is the problem, not the user.
    I'd rather have an obedient and predictable vehicle than one that is trying to outsmart me at every move.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    I understand what you're saying. The hesitation problem is the Lexus Avalon and maybe now the 6 cyl Camry (same car) that had a discussion group here on Edmunds. It wasn't the 4 cyl.

    The company does jump on responding to e.g. the transproblem with wrong parts put into many that just occured and another one I just heard. But other companies also respond to allegations and to problems. However they don't get the pass from the media. It's sort of like the media likes one president and allows weasel words and downplays problems while another president gets creamed with negativism all the time. Personally I think they're all a mess and we need new blood, but that's another disucssion.

    The

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    Gee that picture of the Camry a few threads back looks better than the U.S. version in my opionion I also saw the alleged new picture of the 2008 Honda Accord by doing a google search. Those pictures look pretty good also. Hopefully, Honda rises to the occassion, but I would not expect too many changes (other than a slight boost in hp to the 4 cylinder car and a greater increase in hp on the six cylinder car. Look for Honda to boost fuel economy slightly on both versions - probably between 1 to 3 miles city/highway.

    As far as the Toyota issue with the tranny hesitation due to software issues (or the one on the Avalon thread due to foot/pedal position), this may become a problem for Toyota. The fact is that this has been an issue since the 2002 model year (in the Lexus ES 300). They may get a pass due to their stellar reputation, but this may soon end over customer complaints and poor dealer service. I do think Toyota makes great cars and do own two of them, but I have noticed an increase in problems and fit and finish problems (comparing a 1991 model to a 2002 model). Although the 2007 Camry LE is an improvemnt over the previous model (whose clother interior was really cheap looking), the interior of that vehicle is still not up to par with the current generation Accord Lx's interior. This is just my opinion though.

    I will wait to see what Honda and Nissan come out with, and compare it to the 2007 Camry before changing vehicle.

    Alans - I passed on the Pilot at this time due to fuel economy issues. I still think its the top vehicle in its class though.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    Not yet but because they are so greedy to topple gm they are losing site of who matters most which is their consumers.

    Just go check out ie carpoint.com and other sites owners review and see why this mid size king has a 8.4 compared to a sonata which has a 9 + by car owners. I thought mainly cuz the sonata is cheaper it got more satified marks, but it was mostly because of how many problems the camry has had including safety hazards including its so called advanced tranny. Toyoa def has lost its edge at least with camry at this moment in regards to making superior quality cars

    My guess is that the camry was rushed to production since toyota was scared other mid size cars would keep biting at their sales and that they could get closer to gm in sacrifice of usual superior quality. Where is the homework done?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Toyoa def has lost its edge at least with camry at this moment in regards to making superior quality cars

    That's quite a broad-brush statement you made there.
  • andy82471andy82471 Member Posts: 120
    Even with initial quality issues, it is a safe bet that the Camry will be more reliable in the long run than most of its competitiors. Toyota still tops Consumer Reports long term reliability survey.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Toyota and Honda stay on top because they are always improving, and don't make many "bad" cars. People hear the names Camry and Accord and associate the names with quality cars. The other companies make so many "bad" cars, they have to keep changing the names. They change the name of the car so it hopefully won't be associated with the previous "piece of crap" from the year before. Such as Fusion (Ford doesn't want people to associate this car with the Taurus) Altima (used to be the Stanza, not a good car) Malibu (came and went, then came back) due for another name change. Sonata (my guess is the Sonata will not be called the Sonata in 7 years from now).
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I thought mainly cuz the sonata is cheaper it got more satified marks, but it was mostly because of how many problems the camry has had including safety hazards including its so called advanced tranny. Toyoa def has lost its edge at least with camry at this moment in regards to making superior quality cars

    How can you make up stuff like this and expect anyone to take you seriously? There are no safety issues at all, zero, none, nada, zip. You hope that there might be but in fact there are none. Please don't make up crazy ideas.

    Fact:
    The Sonata continues to struggle to gain traction here despite all the money being sunk into incentives ( increased this month again ).
    FAct:
    The public votes with it's pocketbook sending Camry sales soaring as the new Generation flys off the lots.

    The quality still surpasses any vehicle made by Hyundai including both the Sonata and Azera in 95% of the populations perception because that is reality.

    That is just fact. You can cite minor errors all day long but with the huge volume being done here it is a very very small part of the total picture. These little issues do give hope to Sonata enthusiasts that not everything is perfect in Toyota's world, but it's a very small hope.

    Enjoy it :D ,

    Fact:
    the Sonata continues to fall behind.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Stop and think for a minute. What if.. A car did come along that did rival the namestay Honda/Toyota's? The media and many auto writers find it easier to just go with the namestay winners, it appeases the masses and makes them money. Get out on the net. Toyota has stumbled. The proof is all over the net, around the other chat rooms. However, do you hear about this in the media, no. why? Honda also, not too hard to find a peeved off Honda owner who expected perfection and received a surprise. What about the first year of Odessey? a disaster, yet it still won best minivan.. hmm...As consumers figure out for themselves they don't have to pay extra for a good value, reliable vehicle, what then for Toyota/Honda? Its an whole new ballgame...
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I was just surprised to hear a commercial like this from Toyota. Justifying to consumers to pay the extra dollars, you won't be sorry. Saying over and over again about Toyota legendary quality ect, ect... I was just wondering why would Toyota put a commercial like this out? I have never heard a commercial like this from Toyota before? It really sounds to me that news of Toyotas quality issues have made it around enough that Toyota execs may be worried?
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Yes, even Honda has problems with their cars, from time to time. When Honda had the transmission problems, they extended the warranty. "Honda of America" does a great job of settling disputes with customers. If it is a common problem, Honda will "good will" the repair (out of warranty), or at least not charge for the part (only labor). This is how they get so many repeat customers. If the customer is not happy with the first Honda (car and service), he or she will not buy another one. The other car companies could learn a lot about customer relations from Honda.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    "WE were so "DISAPPOINTED" WITH THE "QUALITY" WE TRADED BOTH CARS IN WITHIN(2)MONTHS. The Camry is a very different car than it's predecessors,and does not come close to the "QUALITY"of past. The CAMRY sits extremely low and is very hard to get comfortable in the drivers seat and you cannot rest your arm on the window ledge as you normally would,it's to high.The "INTERIOR" is "EXTREMELY CHEAP". The plastic is SO CHEAP AND A LOT "THINNER",with several
    "RATTLES" and "BUZZ NOISES" from the plastic.The "4"cyl.is so "underpowered" it's a "JOKE" and when you step on the "GAS" it don't go anywhere,it hesitates around corners and when it downshifts to a stop,it downshifts hard to the next gears." carpoint

    Now i'm not going to be cheap and expect everything this guy say to be valid but there are lots of similiar complaints i had when i took a test drive. First the quality is not camry of 90's up to the last gen just how we can say the previous sonata before the last gen was crap , which are both the truth(all the recalls issues, last general felt more buttoned down made, smoother ride trans+Engine). The interior has some style but the materials are definitely thin and look fraile just as the review complained about in addition to the quality complaint

    I have no problem to say lets see about the long term aspect, but as of right now the sonata beats the camry in initial quality(less recalls, less complaints).
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Some people are just complainers. They will complain no matter what. Reminds me of a guy I work with. If the boss told him to just sit in a chair all day, and not do any work. He would complain that his but hurts, from sitting down all day. Like he or she didn't know the car was low (to the ground before he bought it). Typical complainer.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    "WE were so "DISAPPOINTED" WITH THE "QUALITY" WE TRADED BOTH CARS IN WITHIN(2)MONTHS

    OK to be precise you are quoting a buyer who likely bought the previous generation Camry. The current generation hasn't been out three months yet! This poster was likely complaining about last Generation.

    The 4c is 10 hp less than the Honda and about the same as the sonata. How can it be so underpowered. You apparently chose to write a review ( oops.. you didnt write this yourself did you? )..

    Facts: There are no recalls and the total Hyundai auto sales much less than all Camry's.

    Please just stay with the facts. This Gen is only 10 weeks old, don't make things up.

    Your anger against Japan and Toyota is starting to get you riled up again. Try the Malibu it's a neutral subject.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Before you go putting too much faith into individual reviews like the one you quoted ( wrote?) look at this gem from someone who gave the new Camry the lowest rating of all because of the transmission problem(?).

    franc wrote:
    Review: This 2007 is my fifth Toyota and probably the last. I was just told that the 5 speed auto transmission that I was complaining about is suppose to: hunt for gears, hesitate, surge, and brake. It is "new and improved" and they say that it will get better. I hope so, but doubt it. I have over 300 miles and it hasn't improved yet. What was Toyota thinking? My 2004 Camry shifted very smoothly,had more power and got better mileage. How can they expect a smooth ride with a transmission that is continuously braking, shifting, and hunting for a gear; all while on level ground. I do believe Toyota will be getting many complaints about this new age "improved" transmission.
    Favorite Features: I like the interior, dash lights are nice.
    Suggested Improvements: Recall the transmission and put back the side body moulding.


    Ahh now for the punch line. What model did franc buy?

    2007 Camry LE 2.4L 5M..... 5M?????? This guy wrote this about the MANUAL TRANNY. Did he realize that he had to use the clutch? His rating 3.6!!

    OK benefit of the doubt.. he probably meant to write 2.4L 5AT, I guess.

    BTW: 65 consumer reviews here at Edmunds with a overall rating of 9.1. Take out the 5 highest and the 5 lowest in order to eliminate 'ringer entries' and the result is 9.3
  • ykangykang Member Posts: 88
    You surely have a lot of free time. Did you do all the calculation? Add all 65 review scores and subtract 5 highest and lowest scores then divide by 55???
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It's easy - and this sort of stuff appeals to my mathmatical side.

    65 x 9.1 = 591.5 Total

    5 x 10 = 50 ( 5 highest ) easy
    1 x 3.6
    1 x 5.6
    1 x 5.9
    1 x 6.0
    1 x 7.1 = 28.2 ( 5 lowest ) easy

    Net is 513.3 / 55 = 9.33

    3 min at the most. The longest time was to find the 5 lowest scores
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    You think that commercial is surprising? You should hear what the Camry salesmen say when they find out you are snubbing the Camry and buying a Sonata. They are incredulous, flabbergasted, shocked. :D

    I also agree with your previous post. Yes, Toyota has stumbled. However, the reality is that Toyota has built up so much customer adoration and loyalty "capital" that they can afford to stumble. If a car with a long record of quality stumbles, it's "understandable". If a car with only 4-5 year record of good quality stumbles, it would be simply unforgivable. It's human nature. People have a strong herding instinct and many develop an irrational loyalty to steel.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    KD: Is this chassis different from the 05 chassis? Or is it just one with the typical tweaks to improve certain characteristics?

    Someone said the car sits up higher now in response to a comment that the car is too low to get into easily.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    The radio commercials I've heard are by corporate toyota. Are you hearing those or local stores' commercials.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yes, Toyota has stumbled....??

    The market begs to differ. Capital or not this Gen is 10 weeks old and it highly premature to make any assessment. Initial reactions, save the peripheral few, are nearly universally positive.

    You do a disservice to the American public, methinks.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    You do a disservice to my statement. Please go back and read. I'm a huge Toyota fan. :D

    Seriously, I didn't mean to say Toyota's sales have stumbled. I meant their legendary quality stumbled. Being an excellent company, it's just a bump in the road for Toyota. They'll resolve it and not suffer at all. The only thing I have against Toyota is their outrageous pricing. It's Toyota's right to make 8K profit on a Camry, and it's the buyer's right to pay it. But I'm not playing that game.
  • beantownbeantown Member Posts: 228
    BTW: 65 consumer reviews here at Edmunds with a overall rating of 9.1. Take out the 5 highest and the 5 lowest in order to eliminate 'ringer entries' and the result is 9.3

    Two things: (1) it's way too early to start analyzing numbers when you are talking about ONLY 55 reviews and (2) it's even more misleading when you are looking at reviews from people that on average have owned the car for only one month. Some of these great scores are coming from people that have only owned the car for a few days....those should clearly be ignored.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Some of these great scores are coming from people that have only owned the car for a few days....those should clearly be ignored.

    Do you get the feeling that the reviews were already formulated in the owner's minds even before they even bought the car? :D
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Good point.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • seniorjoseseniorjose Member Posts: 277
    I don't believe that any sales are coming from Toyota or Honda customers...there is no comparison. Toyota will sell more autos in America than GM and Honda sells what they can produce without the "fire sale" attitude of some autos -- can't even give them away. There is a lot of baloney "spin" to try to put down the Cam/Hon twins...chuckle.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >There is a lot of baloney "spin" to try to put down the Cam/Hon twins...chuckle.

    I strongly see the opposite in this area. Lots of past Hotoy buyers have Hyundai and Kia in their garage. They tired of the arrogant salesmen and service departments and bought something that has quality and a long warranty.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    This Gen6 chassis is essentially the same as the last. They moved the wheels back and out slightly. The last Gen5 was HUGE inside in comparison to the Gen4's ( 97-01 ) which were low to the ground. The Gen5's seating was 3" higher than the smaller/lower Gen4's. Frankly it appealed to a more geriatric buyer who didn't want to bend down to get in it.

    This new Gen6 is on the same chassis but the seating is 1" lower and the roofline is sleeker so the OAH is 0.8" lower also. The net is that the inside headroom is 0.4" less than the humongous gen5.

    The chassis sit the same off the ground. The new Gen6 is an optical illusion depending from where one is coming. From a Gen4 ( 97-01 ) this new one seems huge. From a Gen5 ( 02-06 ) this new one seems like a big Corolla.

    Dimensions: Gen6 vs Gen5
    OAL......189.2 vs 189.2
    OAW...... 71.7 vs 70.7
    OAH...... 57.9 vs 58.7
    GrClr.... . 5.5 vs 5.5
    Curb Wt.. 3307 vs 3164 lbs
    FrHR..... 38.8 vs 38.2
    FrSh..... 57.8 vs 57.5
    FrHip.... 54.6 vs 54.4
    FrLeg.... 41.7 vs 41.6
    RrHR..... 37.8 vs 38.4
    RrSh..... 56.9 vs 56.7
    RrHip.... 53.9 vs 54.1
    RrLeg.... 38.3 vs 37.8
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Thats why I took out the top 5 and the bottom 5 as well. Sort of what they used to do in Figure skating scoring.

    65 reviews in 10 weeks is not statistically significant but frankly there aren't that many reviews of any of the models. At 500+ reviews then it becomes more significant. At 1000+ there is a relatively small margin of error. But as you imply these are not random samples either. None of the reviews of any of the models are random samples.
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Member Posts: 277
    I strongly see the opposite in this area. Lots of past Hotoy buyers have Hyundai and Kia in their garage. They tired of the arrogant salesmen and service departments and bought something that has quality and a long warranty.

    You have your opinion and I have mine, Kia of course has a much better reputation and you will note that the "new" Hyundai minivan is just a rebadged Kia.

    Hyundai, of course, has earned the reputation of being the most troublesome auto mark since the Yugo, by their owners and their own admission.

    NOBODY says the Honda/Toyota Japanese auto companies are in trouble, they still are selling all they can produce, while Hyundai cannot even give their low quality vehicles away...more and more discounts to try to keep their factory workers employed. It is a sin that their V6 is being peddled so cheap...better they change the name of their company to Kia.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Hyundai cannot even give their low quality vehicles away...more and more discounts to try to keep their factory workers employed. It is a sin that their V6 is being peddled so cheap.

    Where are you getting your information and wild assumptions? Maybe the above is true on your planet, but it's not even close on Earth. The Montgomery Sonata plant has been going full tilt since it opened to KEEP UP WITH DEMAND, not to keep from laying off workers. Maybe on your planet it's a sin to be inexpensive, but on Earth, it's a GOOD THING to be inexpensive. Cars you like are "sold", cars you dislike are "peddled". You need to come back to Earth Jose. There have been some interesting changes in the past 5 years. ;)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The Sonata will still be called Sonata in seven years.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    With all due respect, I think you have your "facts" 180 degrees out-of-phase. The Entourage is not a re-badged Sedona, as Hyundai is the parent company of Kia. If anything, the reverse is true.

    Ask any mechanic about a Hyundai vs. Kia, especially prior to Hyundai's acquisition of Kia. Earlier Kia's used the same color code on all electrical wiring. How would you like to troubleshoot a Kia electrical problem?

    Hyundai as the most troublesome auto marque (note proper spelling). . . not quite. I've purchased new Hondas, Nissans, Toyotas, but my latest purchase was a new Hyundai last year. No problems whatsover, and it was the first new car I've ever purchased that was absolutely perfect aesthetically and mechanically upon delivery. No, not even my previous Hondas or Toyotas were delivered as such.

    We all know you're anti-Hyundai and pro-Honda and Toyota, and I'm not blatantly pro-Hyundai, as I've supported the Japanese cars with multi-thousands of dollars over the past 30 years and am very objective as to quality vs. price. The Hyundai is an excellent car at a reasonable price, and the dealer treats me as a human being with respect. This may come as a shock to you, but Hyundai's reputation as a quality manufacturer is growing rapidly. We are no longer in the 1980's.

    The final straw for me was during the pre-purchase research for this last car purchase. I seriously considered a new Accord or Camry, but the utter arrogance of the respective sales staff drove me away from each dealership. I've bought my last Honda, Nissan, or Toyota.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    "Fact:
    The Sonata continues to struggle to gain traction here despite all the money being sunk into incentives ( increased this month again )."

    The Sonata continues to struggle to gain traction is not a fact. The Sonata sales have continued to exceed target (even when fleet sales are discounted, sales have met targeted units).

    "The quality still surpasses any vehicle made by Hyundai including both the Sonata and Azera in 95% of the populations perception because that is reality."

    I tend to think it is too early to make such statement.

    "Fact:
    the Sonata continues to fall behind."

    How do you figure exactly and in what areas do they fall behind in? If you mean the Sonata continues to fall behind the Camry in sales, then that would be a given :) The fact of the matter remains, the Sonata continues to be a formidable player in the family sedan category. The current generation is actually catching up to the leaders and quickly closing the gap. In that respect, Hyundai is actually gaining ground and improving at an amazing pace!
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    "Kia of course has a much better reputation"

    Incorrect.

    "Hyundai cannot even give their low quality vehicles away...more and more discounts to try to keep their factory workers employed. It is a sin that their V6 is being peddled so cheap...better they change the name of their company to Kia."

    Can we move away from the igorance and face the reality. With all due respect, every single item you mentioned in the above quote is far from the truth and extremely igorant.

    There are lots of resources online about how Sonatas are built in the US plant. The plant is claimed as the most technologically advanced in the US, Santa Fe now joins the Sonata there also. The assembly line is so automated, Hyundai is able to build cars at less time, faster pace and better quality (I am not doubting the workers but humans are humans; robots, on the other hand, do not call in sick :)) Anyway, I am certain the Sonata quality numbers, as well as numbers for the plant will be superb.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    I'm not going to be personal and point fingers, but honestly there are a few toyota owners i've read in this forum that frankly seem to like this car because the PUBLIC said so. Because the public buys the car so its the best, because the public will jump off the cliff and so will they.

    I mean lets be independent please.

    For one i don't give a care what the public thinks, i care about my end first, and i will listen to the publics opinion because we are humans and we all want to be "normal" and advice is good, but the public does not dictate what i know is logical or not in the end

    One thing that i know for a fact is that the older gen camries never had these many recalls as the new one now, and that can't be something to be proud of. If the sonata had the same issues i would say that same stuff(and i have as the previous sonata before 2002 were crap). Since the publics opinion is very important to some, it will be proven in time with the sales decrease compared to previous sales figures, unless toyota does some better quality assurance measures and maybe also lower the prices instead of always increasing it every single year(8k profits rearing its ugly corp head).
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I'll say this much, the Hyundai Sonata, especially the new one, is very much on par, if not better than the rest of the class - IT IS one of the best midsize sedans out there. From every review I read, every current owner I talked to, and every Sonata I examined, the car is nothing short of excellence. I have heard nothing but praises, build qualities, standard features, value, warranty, quite cabin, efficient I-4 (mpg 24/34), powerful V6 (234 hp - fair mpg 20/30), safety, braking, etc...

    Intellichoice 2006 Lowest Repair Costs By Class:

    http://www.intellichoice.com/top10/Top_List/year/2006/list/Lowest%20Repair

    Base Sport Hyundai Tiburon GT (Manual)
    Compact Kia Rio (Manual)
    Full-Size Van Ford E150 Super Duty XL Passenger Wagon
    Large Hyundai Sonata GL (Manual)
    Large Pickup Nissan Titan King Cab XE 2WD
    Luxury Infiniti M35
    Midsize Kia Optima LX (Manual)
    Midsize Wag Ford Focus ZXW SE
    Mini Van Honda Odyssey EX w/Leather
    Near Luxury Infiniti G35 (Auto)
    Small Pickup Isuzu i-280 Extended Cab S
    Small Utility Mitsubishi Outlander SE 2WD (Auto)
    Small Wag Suzuki Aerio SX (Auto)
    Sport Infiniti G35 (Auto)
    Subcompact Hyundai Tiburon GS (Manual)
    Utility Mitsubishi Montero
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