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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    That's all well and good, but we're not really talking about the Big 3 vs. the World, or the 90s, or the Success/Failure of dependence on SUVs.

    Now, if we're talking about the current entries from the Big 2.5 in the midsize field, here's what I think:

    DCX- Stratus/Sebring- out of date, unrefined, way below safety standards for the class, inefficient, poor interior materials quality, in dire need of the redesign that's coming. (I've had both a 2.4L Stratus and a 2.7 Sebring as rentals from Hertz in the recent past- both, strangely, lacking ABS- inexcusable in this segment.)

    GM- Malibu, G6, Aura- The Malibu strikes me as a good value though not necessarily a vehicle I'd buy. Most aspects of the car are good to very good but not class leading- acceleration, efficiency, safety features/rating, ride, noise, etc. Sames goes for the G6, though I think the electric steering in both is a bit weird. (I've had a 3.9L G6 GTP and 3.5L Malibu as rentals as well, and some experience with them I'd take either in a heartbeak over the DCX losers.) The nice thing about the GM entries is that they offer a ton of body styles, engines, transmissions, trim levels. Factory remote start is really neat, IMO, though ESC should be available.

    With all that said, I still would be hard pressed to buy a Malibu or G6 over a similarly priced Sonata or nearly departed Altima (on which sale pricing will continue as we move through the summer).

    Ford- clearly leaving the other two in the dust with the new Fusion. By a few points, the new Fusion beat out the last generation Camry XLE V6 and current Sonata V6 in the Dec. 05 issue of C/D by virtue of its sharp handling, composed ride, feature content, interior space, etc. But IMO, it does fall short on some materials quality, engine refinement and power, and the 'Acceptable' rating in the IIHS frontal offset is unacceptable in my book. Where are ESC, Nav, keyless start, etc? Still, the price is right and the styling is also sharp. I've not had one for a rental though I have driven one for a short time. Hands down, this is the best Big 2.5 offering.

    Just IMO.

    ~alpha
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Well stated Alpha. I agree that of the big 2.5 Fusion is far and away the best, and except for missing a very few features most of which have dubious value(at least to me)it stacks up right in the pack with Camry and Accord, and in price it is about $1k-$2k less. I'll take a bit of less refined interior materials and engine refinement if the handling is there and I can get it for $1-2K less.

    Malibu and G6 would not make my list, Malibu for its lame styling and interior blandness even if it is competent and reliable. Malibu exterior styling has always struck me as trying to have Cadillac edges, but it comes off more as a K-mart blue light special.

    DC will soon be introducing a new model in the midsize field that may make it a contender, the jury has not even convened on that yet since it is not in production.

    I would bet that Fusion will certainly do better on the IIHS side impact test when it is retested with the full complement of side airbags, which become standard on Fusion for 2007. As far as IIHS offset front test, aside from a bit of intrusion in the foot area, it probably would have earned 5 stars rather than 4. Yes a bit of improvement needed there, but it certainly cannot be considered a death trap!

    Toyota is beginning to show signs of quality/refinement issues. If you read the Inside Line "2007 Camry Woes" discussion you get a flavor of it. I see no "Fusion Woes" or even a "Fusion Maintenance and Repair" discussion being initiated yet, and Fusion has been on the market quite a bit longer than 2007 Camry.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I was excited by the looks of the concept Aura. I was disappointed by the production version. It looks too chunky to me.
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    I was pleasantly surprised by the bright red kia optima 4 cyl rental i used this weekend. I had a Sonata on reserve but it had already been rented. The optima's exterior styling is very nice, crisp and clean. looks alot better in person than on tv or pictures. The cabin felt a little rough around the edges, but was generally well laid out and put together nicely. The gauges are nice, except for the weird fuel and temp gauges, there in a digital read out beneath the tach and speedo. The gauge illumination is downright gorgeous, they're lit in a bright blue and white color scheme. (hyundai please add this to sonata immediately) The best part of this car has to be the powertrain, the 2.4L engine is a gem, it revs so smoothly and is very sedate and quiet at cruise even at 85 mph. The 5spd auto shifts smartly and transparently, very impressive powertrain. The only downside i saw to this vehicle was the suspension tuning is god awful. I felt every bump, rock or pebble in the road, while some will say its sporty, this was just terrible to me. You can tune a midsize sedan to be sporty without being so harsh, trust me drive a mazda6 and you'll see. But all in all, the car is very nice and while i probably will not buy one, i would deffinately recommend at least a test drive.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It sounds like Kia tuned the suspension to mimic the Accord's. Honda has sold a lot of Accords over the years, so that may not be a killer.

    The Optima would be much more attractive to me if they had all the safety goodies standard (or even available!) on the LX trim.
  • gefiltegefilte Member Posts: 21
    your 1 or 2 thousand you would save on a fusion purchase now would quickly evaporate well before trade in time. in the long run you would probably be spending 2-3 thousand more in total ownershipo costs for the fusion over the life of the car.also, the reason you see no 'fusion woes' inside line is probably because there arent enough owners out there to form a small group.im sure every ford dealer is bending over backwards to correct any complaint a fusion owner may have, BUT,the real answer is , had they been bending over backwards for the last 15 years, ford would never have been in the shape it is in today. they arent bold and certainly do not have a 'better idea' :lemon:
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    I was excited by the looks of the concept Aura. I was disappointed by the production version. It looks too chunky to me.

    I agree, I think its the alloys that they're using, The alloys on the concept were very nice and gave the car a clearner appearance. The Aura also appears to be unusally tall, especially in the rear. Gm needs to drop the car a few inches to give the car a better tire to body ratio and a more aggressive stance
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It sounds like Kia tuned the suspension to mimic the Accord's. Honda has sold a lot of Accords over the years, so that may not be a killer.

    Sounds like it may even be firmer (based on his opinion). Judging by ace's words about the Mazda6 being balanced well between handling and ride (which is tuned tauter than Accord), the Kia sounds like it may even be firmer. Personally, I like the tight ride motions of the Accord, because it has no "float" or "bobbing" motion when going over bumps.
  • cxccxc Member Posts: 122
    AutoPacific 2006 Ideal Vehicle Awards-Hyundai Top Brand

    Top-rated 2006 Ideal Vehicle brand: Hyundai
    Top-rated 2006 Ideal Product Segment: Large Car/Luxury Car

    Top rated 2006 Ideal Vehicles by segment:

    PASSENGER CARS:
    Premium Luxury Car Lexus LS
    Entry Luxury Car BMW 3-Series
    Large Car/Luxury Car Mercury Montego
    Premium Mid-Size Car Hyundai Sonata
    Mid-Size Car Mercury Milan
    Image Compact Car Toyota Prius
    Compact Car Ford Focus
    Sports Car Porsche 911
    Sporty Car Acura RSX

    SUT, SUV, and MINIVAN:
    Sport Utility Truck Honda Ridgeline
    Luxury Sport Utility BMW X-5
    Large Sport Utility GMC Yukon
    Premium Mid-Size Sport Utility Nissan Murano
    Mid-Size Sport Utility Hyundai Santa Fe
    Compact Sport Utility Subaru Forester
    Minivan Honda Odyssey
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    Exactly thegraduate, the ride is very harsh, in my opinion to much so for a family sedan, every bump transmits directly to the cabin, via a loud thud. The car only had 9,000 or so miles, so wouldnt attribute the harshness to the tires which were not sport tires. In regards to the accord, i feel the kia is harsher, the accord strikes a nice balance, it feels taut and well controlled, but also has excellent dampening and isolation from road imprefections. I wonder if the Optima V6 has the same tuning ?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I wonder if the Optima V6 has the same tuning ?

    Beats me...if it has a different wheel/tire combo the ride will probably be different, but likely even MORE harsh than the 4-cylinder.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I had an opportunity to take a Hybrid Camry for an extended drive this week. It was the top trim model similar to the XLE V6 tested in the recent comparo here at Edmunds.

    Navi, BT, Leather + heated seats, Sunroof, VDIM, JBL 440 watt 4 disc w/8 speakers.

    What was exceptional about this was that in 650 mi from sealevel up and over the Appalachians it registered 39 mpg - at 70 mph on average.

    Most of the drive was in dead silence with little or no engine noise. It was just the sound of the tires on the pavement and the extraordinary sound system.

    For those looking at top of the line trims the Camry with the power of a V6 and the fuel economy of a Civic/Corolla/Elantra is a great choice.

    Ahhh... it currently costs less than the XLE V6 trim in the Edmunds comparo.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I found the Accord taut but still comfy enough for long rides. Not the Mazda6 though. It was just too bumpy for me, and a little noisy too. Camry had a good ride, but not confidence inspiring like Accord and Mazda6. Never sat in an Optima. Sounds worthwhile to take a test drive.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Well, I have spent nothing beyond one set of tires and one set of front brakes and routine oil and filter and one transmission fluid change and one battery for my 2000 Taurus which is now at 59K miles, and actually I could have run the brakes for a bit longer than I did. Prior to that I had a 1990 Taurus and spent about $2K total for non routine maintenance in that ten year period, most of it related to an AC repair and a radiator.

    So, my Ford experience has been excellent, and I keep cars ten years so depreciation matters little to me.

    Let see, I save $2k up front. I invest that at say 5% return, and at the end of ten years I have $3258. Based on past performance I have experienced, this should cover any repairs I will need with some money left over.

    Take your blinders off. Toyonda aren't the only ones making decent cars these days.

    There are a lot more Fusion owners out there at this point in time than there are 2007 Camry owners. If Fusion had any significant problems to date, be assured Inside Line would be crawling with them.
  • 94hawkskin94hawkskin Member Posts: 116
    Anybody catch the Modern Marvels show on the History channel about assembly lines. They showed the state of the art facility that Hyundai has in Alabama and how they can produce more cars that cost less than the competition and even at a higher quality.

    That is some plant!
  • pekelopdpekelopd Member Posts: 139
    you can catch a video clip of it at the modern marvels website.

    http://www.historychannel.com/modernmarvels/?page=video
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    It is scheduled to be broadcast again Thursday, 6/15, at 7 PM EDT. That is a pretty impressive clip!
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I saw the piece, and was more impressed with the workers than the robots. They seemed all about building cars, if you know what I mean. Back to robots... I believe Hyundai is the biggest robot maker in the world, so naturally they would be ahead on robots and robot technology. It must be nice to get your robots robots on the cheap! :D
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    Hyundai seems to be on a roll piling up a lot of awards recently on its Sonata. I do like their styling on the Sonata, the Azera, and even the new Santa Fe SUV (a bit off topic). This is good for the very competitive mid-size car segment. This field is just too crowded and prices will continue to decline. One can expect some amazing sales this November and December. I can't believe I just paid less for a new, 2006 Accord SE than what I would have paid for a non-VTEC Accord LX in 1994 or 1995.
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    I do like their styling on the Sonata

    Wow - really? Cause as good as they've engineered the car I feel its biggest drawback is it's LameO looks. Especially the front end - looks like a Russian or Eastern European design from the 80s (was that a Treblinka?)
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    Well that's your opinion. However, styling in the mid- size segment tends to be conservative as discussed ad nauseum on this thread in the past. In this area, perhaps manufacturers do not push the envelope too far because everyone remembers what happened to the Ford Taurus.

    I would not say it looks like 80s styling because its not -then your saying the styling is like a Yugo - that's a big exaggeration.
  • joblowjoblow Member Posts: 11
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.I personally love the look of the Audi6 and the Sonata is as close as you can get,as far as looks go and at a much better price.I know I have said this before,but the compliments about the looks on our Sonata never stop coming,the latest being a building inspector,who aproached us and did not know the make,saying wow I love the looks and style of your car.Everyone has their own idea of whats stylish and sharp as in everything in life.It would be pretty hilarious if our wives all looked the same. :) Hmmm but then I think the HondaCam owners would probably like that.Just joking now.
    As far as getting boring about all this Hyundia talk,my guess is ,if there was more about Hondas or Camrys,it wouldn't be as boring.
  • lservelserve Member Posts: 50
    One thing - that interior is well done. It was mostly preserved from the concept.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Wow - really? Cause as good as they've engineered the car I feel its biggest drawback is it's LameO looks.

    You're way in the minority on that opinion. I don't think the car's looks are what's LameO. I am a low profile guy, and wanted a slightly nondescript car. Well, I find it turning heads and fetching quite a few compliments. I guess I still like it anyway. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I like it too! The styling of the Fusion stands out and screams look at me! Plus, since the best kept secret is just now getting out, there aren't many around yet.. So, its nice to be different.. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Honda has never had a "bad reputation". Hyundai has"
    This shows how young you must be.. When Honda first came to the U.S. its rep was not that good. I remember, my sister owned the first civic.. boy what a piece of garbage it was, constantly breaking down.. Times sure have changed...
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Honda and its reputation.. Don't get me wrong. Honda build good cars.. but with the internet and the free flow of information.. go to google and type in "Honda problems" Wow! what an eye opener for those who think all Honda's are perfect... :surprise:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    google and type in "Honda problems" Wow! what an eye opener for those who think all Honda's are perfect...

    I don't think you have to do that...after all, we ALL know that everything everyone posts on the internet must be true, right? :) Just kidding with ya, but, while you will definitely find problems with Honda when "Googling", the same can be said of all other car companies too. It proves very little, unless someone actually thinks Honda's ARE in fact perfect, which they definitely are not. But for me, the driving experience was as close to perfect as I could get with 34 MPG and $21k (Accord EX, I-4).
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "your 1 or 2 thousand you would save on a fusion purchase now would quickly evaporate well before trade in time. in the long run you would probably be spending 2-3 thousand more in total ownershipo costs for the fusion over the life of the car.also, the reason you see no 'fusion woes' inside line is probably because there arent enough owners out there to form a small group.im sure every ford dealer is bending over backwards to correct any complaint a fusion owner may have, BUT,the real answer is , had they been bending over backwards for the last 15 years, ford would never have been in the shape it is in today. they arent bold and certainly do not have a 'better idea'
    You don't count the 0% financing? compared to the 3.9 or 5 percent a Honda/Toyota owner pays over the lifetime of the payments? Get out on the net there are plenty of Fusion owners out here. Fact is the Fusion is proving very quickly to be a reliable, quality built vehicle.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    To me a major drawback for the Kia is the engine selections. None have any real power. If you are going to shell out the cash for a V6, you will want something with a little more grunt. The Fusion's 221 has been considered a little too soft. The Kia is even worse. The Optima in base model form with 161 seems just okay, but to shell out the extra 1,700 hundred needed to move up to the V6, you should get more than 185 horses. I guess if they had given it the Sonata engine, they believed it would steal Sonata sales... which it probably would. THe interior of the Kia is much better than the Sonata's.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    "your 1 or 2 thousand you would save on a fusion purchase now would quickly evaporate well before trade in time. in the long run you would probably be spending 2-3 thousand more in total ownershipo costs for the fusion over the life of the car."

    Whoever said this I'd like to see them prove it. The Fusion is the fourth top reliable midsive car according the JD Powers so how is it that its ownership costs will be so high. I think it will be in line with everyone else. The differences in the reliability numbers are so small now that it won't even cause a significant difference in ownership costs. Additionally I think you can save even more than the MSRP difference as Ford dealers are more flexible when it comes to pricing than Honda and Toyota. You have to remember that if you don't buy that Camry, Toyota knows someone else will. With Ford, they are hungry for any sale they can get.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    This car is the size closer to a tsx. Also if the altima with its hefty size can feel fast with even its 165 hp vq engine, than that is possible with a v6 180 hp optima. Even i'm sure the 4 banger will be good mated to the 5 speed auto and should be 70 percent of the sales anyways

    This is not meant to be a premium midsize sedan, but a sedan that is for a starting family who may want bigger room than a civic or mazda 3.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I agree; my thought on the V6 was, what's the point? Kia expects to sell mostly I4s. I wonder why...
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    ...there are lots of good options in the midsized auto segment for families that may be dropping their $35,000 SUV's for one or two more efficient vehicles.

    This segment and the one below it, the commuter segment, with vehicles like the Civic, Corolla, Elantra, Focus and Cobalt will be hot in the near term.

    Everyone of these models should grow rapidly in volume.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Isn't the new Optima supposed to be bigger on the inside than the Accord or previous model Camry because that's what I read in Kia's owm brochure. Further, the Optima is definitely larger than the TSX and can't compete (a true lack of feature content and most definitely pricing is different)TSX is smaller than the Accord..and the new Optima is bigger than the current Accord.

    Further, while the Altima 2.5L may be good enough in say I4 form, a V6 should defintiely be more powerful than 185 in a time when everybody has 220plus.

    I do find the Optima more attractive than say the Sonata, but they both look like bland pototes to me. They both have that round "wanna be Audi" look but the cars aren't executed as well as say the A4 or A6, but then again I shouldn't expect them to be..since they cost half the price.

    I'm FINALLY starting to see the resemblance between the Audi A6 and Sonata, it looks especially like the previous A6 which had a round "potato" look to it.
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Everyone of these models should grow rapidly in volume

    Maybe. People still want roomy vehicles. Minivans are coming back. They have more room than an SUV, get better gas mileage, typically have more/better safety features, handle and feel better, are more comfortable, also sit higher than a typical automobile, seat 7...(stop me whenever you want)...look better, cost less to insure, have better resale......etc.

    So smaller doesn't mean much. Most families don't want a Yaris/Fit, or a Civic/Corolla, or even a CamCord.
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    I'm FINALLY starting to see the resemblance between the Audi A6 and Sonata

    Not me.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    I can see your point...it took me a while to see it in the previous generation A6, not the current one. I don't like the styling of the Sonata, I find it bland and boring, but I find the Accord and Camry boring as well. I don't see as much resemblance between the new A6 and the current Sonata though. I think the latest one is better designed than the last and doesn't have the "potato" shape the previous model did.

    Too bad Hyundai didn't use Audi for interior design and quality of materials, which seem to be lacking on the Sonata IMO. It does everything well, but the interior is a low point. IMO.

    But to each his own...I respect all opinions and enjoy these forums.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Can't argue with you on the advantages of minivans,we have a minivan and a mid sized sedan, so we have both. It is hard to beat the utility and flexibility of a minivan along with not too big a fuel efficiency penalty.

    If you are a multicar family, usually you don't need TWO minivans, however, and the midsize sedans fill the bill with better fuel efficiency and still enough room for a lot of routine trips, with still enough metal around you to be reasonably safe.

    There are a lot of people that would never need a minivan either, so for them it is overkill.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The Fusion is the fourth top reliable midsive car according the JD Powers

    How do they know? It has only been around (it doesn't even have a nameplate to look at for past history) for what, a year tops? I'm not saying it will or will not be reliable, I just wonder how JD Power can assume how reliable a car will be when it has no real history. Reliability doesn't come from "initial quality".
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    The increase in small cars sales may just be temporary. Its all due to gas prices, which are heading down (they are down about 15 to 20 cents in my hood - but still expensive nonetheless). I also think the increase in sales in that segment is due to the re design of the Civic which is now the top-gun in that segment. The new Civic/current Corolla has dimensions comparable to an early 1990s Accord -so they are not econoboxes.

    For comfort and safety though, I would have to agree with you. Specifically, I really wanted a Honda Pilot SUV, but with gas prices and lack of garaging (garage narrow) I went with another Accord 4
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    You all need to understand JD Power's surveys. They have an initial quality survey done of owners after 90 days of ownership. They also have a three year survey which should catch more of the long term reliability/satisfaction issues.

    Obviously the JD Powers survey done to date on Fusion or Milan is the 90 day variety. Not definitive, but still a good sign that they rank right up there in the top four.
  • tonycdtonycd Member Posts: 223
    It's been amply documented that American makers' poor relationship with their third-party suppliers, made worse by constant cost squeezing of them, results in American cars deteriorating more over time than Japanese makes. This is true even for those American models that start out reliable.

    A survey of the American vendors themselves revealed that the American carmakers treat them with so little respect, they will actually give the Japanese carmaker with an American factory a better part than they'll give the American one. (Note that Nissan, now under French ownership and squeezing its vendors American-style, may now be an exception.)

    It's just another example of how American workers and unions have been unfairly saddled with the blame for the incompetence of their American-business-school-trained managements. Unfortunately, it's also another reason not to give American carmakers your money.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    Though the sonata does resemble the audi a6(Especially side profile) its overall design is hyundai. (compare it to the last generation elantra, hyundais best selling sedan and you can tell why)

    Just wanted to add also Audis new a6 does look sleeker than the previous one hyundai benchmarked, but the new audi a4 looks horrendous compared to the old one(tried to get a lil too cute)

    lastly with interior matters, the sonata is not in the same league as the audi a6 but how can it be anyways with the kind of capital it can work with. It is definitely a tightly made interior for a midsize regardless, european styled
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    lastly with interior matters, the sonata is not in the same league as the audi a6 but how can it be anyways with the kind of capital it can work with. It is definitely a tightly made interior for a midsize regardless, european styled

    I agree with you. I think the Sonata interior is nice, and very functional for its price point, however, i wish hyundai had chosen the layout of maybe the azera's interior. Being that the new 07 elantra gets an azera like interior, hopefully Sonata will get this design also with its next update.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    I agree with your point.

    Whereas the new elantra and sante fe look tremendous in quality, finish and lastly design the sonata while having quality and finish lacks in the design deparment(a little awkward).

    I don't think the sonata anytime will be able to adopt the new interior of hyundai, but at least unlike most cars in its class it is willing to offer 3 color trim levels(black looks really good)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I don't expect to see a new interior on the Sonata until a mid-gen refresh, which would come for the '09 MY if Hyundai keeps to its traditional schedule. But they could do some little things to improve the interior, e.g. blue gauges, cut the chrome surround on the center-stack panel, use real brushed aluminum door handles inside, beefier knobs on the stereo, maybe offer different types of faux wood depending on the interior color. Those are all pretty easy to put in but would help the overall feel quite a bit IMO.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "How do they know? It has only been around (it doesn't even have a nameplate to look at for past history) for what, a year tops? I'm not saying it will or will not be reliable, I just wonder how JD Power can assume how reliable a car will be when it has no real history. Reliability doesn't come from "initial quality".

    I guess this question can really go both ways? How can Toyota start a whole new line (Scion) and automatically they are deemed reliable?

    History shows cars that have good initial quality are generally great cars. I'm sure there are some exceptions.. But overall initial quality is a good indicator...

    Ford is listening and producing results. Now its time for the media to step up and report the good news about Ford if its going to report the bad so readily.. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Look, If you believe the Japanese are in the car building business purely for reputation, I have a beautiful bridge to sell you, red, crosses an open bay, and has beautiful views too..
    Fact is the Japanese do squeeze vendors just as harsh as American car companies might. All in the name of profits and bottom line. The Japanese do it in a different manner however.. seen it, done it, lived it.. :shades:
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Man, you've got that right! They can be absolutely ruthless. If anything gets in the way of profits (or quality) it's toast.

    It's great to have long standing vendor relationships, but loyalties must be ranked below quality, and a lesser degree to profits. I'm sure Camry and Accord are making the best profits in the segment by far.
This discussion has been closed.