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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    You often cite that the Camry only narrowly outpointed the Accord in the recent comparison test, however, the scores don't always tell the whole story.

    The folks at Edmunds.com said themselves: "With the anticipation of parents watching their child win a spelling bee with the final letter, we watched the Camry's point total edge out the Accord's by a 0.64 margin. Despite what this might indicate, there really was no dispute regarding which of these four cars should win the comparison.

    In truth, however, after the first five minutes behind the wheel of the all-new 2007 Camry, each evaluator came away with the same impression: "This is a Camry?" Every so often, an automaker produces something so extraordinary that it manages to not only eclipse its own predecessor, but also succeeds in making the competition appear obsolete."

    Those are pretty strong words.

    "I think they [Nissan] are waiting to see how Toyota and Honda's hybrid vehicles pan out before they get into the game. I think Nissan is ONLY using the Hybrid so that it can met some type of gas mileage requirement (or so I heard, and I work for a Nissan dealer now)"

    Uhm, what? The success of the Prius, the RX-h, GS-h the Highlander Hybrid, and the wait lists for this Camry arent indication?

    And actually, in the case of the Civic vs. Corolla, its the opposite scenario- the Corolla has the benefit of second release, and with the last generation, outpointed the Civic (reference: C/D comparo, Nov 2002 of 2003 models).

    "If Honda plays is cards right (and avoids the styling of the Civic) the Accord will be fine...and I work for a Nissan dealership....and I'll be the first to admit that...folks really will play on the "value" card then."

    Again, what? The Civic is selling over 10% better than its predecessor, has won numerous awards, from Motor Trend's Car of the Year to the first in class EVER to achieve a Gold IIHS recognition for Front, Side, and Rear impact protection. So what is the negative of the Civic....

    But wait, you reminded us... this is a comparison about the Midsize Sedans.

    So what's your point?

    ~alpha
  • ykangykang Member Posts: 88
    If Sonata limited is selling for $13k I would buy 10. What is wrong with that Hyundai provide decent car at a frugal price? If there are so many choices with competition isn't it good for consumers? Why are you complaining?
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Alpha...if you want to further discuss details on my theories on the STYLING of the Civic since that I find so negative with the car in my previous post...hit my e-mail, seeing as the Accord has gotten so much slack for its styling, I don't think Honda would want to risk styling like the Civic on the Accord..that was my point... :confuse:

    But back to the topic...my point was that typically Honda's vehicles do better in comparison to others in the class...and I will continue to believe that they will do the same thing again..they always have... Honda's have typically done VERY well in comparsion with other vehicles...not in just the midsize realm but in other classes as well.

    And you are right, what Edmunds had to say about the Camry and Accord makes perfect sense, sometimes it's not about the numbers (as many a Camcordnata owner can tell you.) but when the cold data is that close, credit is still due to those who deserve it. I'm quite impressed that even despite it's age, the Accord was BARELY beaten by the Camry in a comparison test. Impressive in the least. Rather the Camry was "the winner" based on other reasoning, the fact that the Accord still came that close despite it's age is downright impressive and makes me wonder just what Honda's gonna do next. :)

    The Prius and Highlander are in a TOTALLY different class from the Accord, Camry and Altima...my POINT was that Nissan's Altima Hybrid is simply a vehicle Nissan is using to get a few Hybrid sales here and there and that Ghosn doesn't believe in the technology. So they are "testing" the waters with a limited number of Hybrid Altimas. I won't see one in South Carolina... As one can see the Accord didn't do so hot (V6-performance based) but the Camry seems to be succesful so far. And your whole point on successful Hybrids is nice, except for the fact that Nissan would have no idea that Camry Hybrids would be on waiting list when they planned their Hybrid with Toyota.

    Just because cars like the PRIUS sell, doesn't mean the comparable midsize sedans with the technology will sell as well, aka the Accord, even though it has a rather strange V6/Hybrid combo. Camry Hybrid is a success because Toyota is the leader in the technology. Nissan is just getting into it...with the use of Toyota's older system...I don't think Nissan would see the same success as Toyota, Honda or even Ford if they produced Hybrid Altimas... Further, Nissan isn't really known for gas mileage so chances are it would be a wash. Nissan is tight with the all mighty dollar, they aren't going to invest in something that they don't believe in..rather they are wrong or right.

    And as far as "complaining" about 13K Sonata Limited? You won't see me complaining about one...chances are, I'll probably scoop one up for my niece...lol...because if they ever do get that cheap, I'll buy two as well. It was a joke...because can't some folks get Sonata LX's for like 17K now already?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The Accord hybrid is without a doubt a FLOP...but I bet the next one will be an I4 and will do better.

    I have a feeling that based on the HAH experience that Honda will stay away from hybrids for larger vehicles concentrating on the HCH and the Fit hybrid.

    Now for the Accord, Ody, MDX, Pilot..... diesel. Blam same savings as the hybrids with proven experience.

    The really huge problem is to educate the public that it's OK and 'green' to drive a diesel. The new technology might be somewhat costly too - but then so are hybrids and the task is to reduce the cost.

    Now combine both technologies and somebody has a huge jump on the market. Wanna bet 6 big companies ( MB, T, GM, H, BMW, F ) are all hiding some really interesting technology waiting for the ULSD to be available everywhere here.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    but one thing Honda does learn quickly...if they make a mistake with one product, but the market turns out to be a profitable or good "PR" move, they'll redo it and get it right the next time. Gen 1 Odyssey to 2 ring a bell.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Comparison shoppers may note that pricing for the 2006 Honda Accord - one of the AURA primary competitors - starts at a little over $18,000. However, the base Accord only comes with a 4-cylinder coupled to a manual transmission; the 4-cylinder automatic Accord starts at over $19,000. Meanwhile, the AURA XE comes with a standard V6 and is equipped with more standard equipment that the Accord. Honda's better equipped automatic Accord V6 starts at over $25,000."

    snippet: only comes with a 4-cylinder ...Meanwhile, the AURA XE comes with a standard V6

    I mentioned in a prior post that I like the look of the Aura very much and it should be a worth competitor in the field ..'.if GM doesn't screw it up.' I think they just did. IMO that have just marginalized it to the relatively small part of the midsized market that wants a V6 in lieu of the efficiency of the I4. Honda, Toyota and Nissan all sell well in excess of 60% of their vehicles as I4's. GM just told all these frugal shoppers to 'Get lost, go see the transplants' Yes there is still a large part of the market that wants V6 power and they may be able to fill the plant with V6's but GM is attempting to impose its product mentality on the market. IMO this can only end in failure or marginalizing the vehicle. I think it just became a small niche player like the Mazda's.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yes all vehicles are safer than 20 yrs ago but there is simply no reason for the F/M twins to rank 18th out of 18 in the midsized sedan segment at the IIHS.

    This is a completely new design following the Five Hundred which is ranked first in it's class.

    The vehicle aside this is a massive corporate crime on the part of the product managers and plant managers and engineers at Ford to allow its new flagship midsize sedan to fail to show well. Heck it ranks below the outdated Chrysler product. Any rational buyer looking for safety will immediately eliminate the Ford entries from consideration.

    If any Ford manager/engineer involved with the crash testing of the F/M twins survived this fiasco it would shock me. It makes the vehicle look unnecessarily bad>

    Who wants their brand spanking new vehilce to be rated last from jump street?
  • cm77cm77 Member Posts: 12
    Mazda 3 vs. Honda Civic EX

    or

    Mazda 6 vs. Honda Accord EX

    All 4 cylinder engines.

    Which car would you choose and why?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'd go with Hondas because of personal experience, and my bias towards economy. Also, the relatively poor reliability I read/hear about with the Mazda 6 put me off. I like the Mazda 3s, since it's more of a sporty compact than the Civic, but since that car (Mazda 3) only manages to get the same mileage as the Honda Accord (26/34), a much larger car with more horsepower and weight than the 3, it went off my list. Also, the Honda's have better standard safety features and did better in crash tests. That became a big deal to me after chewing on a guardrail in my 1996 Accord last year.

    Just my opinion, and I drive two Hondas, so I'm definitely biased, but keep in mind that I'm biased for a reason!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    image

    image
    image

    Some pics of the Sebring interior. Take note, the cupholder is refridgerated.
  • cxccxc Member Posts: 122
    Most people agree that 2006 BMW 330 is a driving machine with both speed and dynamic while 2007 V6 Camry is a quick runner. The specified horsepower and torque of Camry V6 are higher than those of BMW 330. You have to ask what makes BMW a driving machine with legendary driving dynamic. Besides suspension, tires, etc., average torque is a key. Average torques for 2006 BMW 330, Sonata, Camry, and Accord are as follows:

    BMW 330: 255HP@6600 rpm, 220 ft-lbs@2750 rpm, average torque= 0.080 ft-lbs/rpm
    Sonata :235 HP@6000rpm, 226 ft-lbs@3500 rpm, average torque=0.065 ft-lbs/rpm
    Camry: 268 HP@6200 rpm, 248 ft-lbs@4700 rpm, average torque = 0.053 ft-lbs/rpm
    Accord: 244HP@6224rpm, 211 ft-lbs@5000 rpm, average torque = 0.041 ft-lbs/rpm

    The average torque of BMW 330 is about 50% higher than that of Camry, and about 100% higher than that of Accord. If BMW responds to the press of its acceleration pedal like a rabbit, both Camry and Accord are like a turtle especially when cars are moving. Sonata is more responsive than both Camry and Accord, but not near BMW. This is why Lexus IS350 having an average torque of 0.057 ft-lbs/rpm is a loser in the comparison test with BMW330 although IS350 has 300 HP and 277 ft-lbs torque.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    I don't think average torque has anything to do with responsiveness.

    Its about where in the RPM range the maximum torque happens. If it happens at a low RPM, the car will be more responsive off the line; if it occurs at higher RPM, the car will take off at higher revs. While on the move, there are many variables like gearing, and thats where BMWs shine.

    As for the IS 350 losing to the 330 in a comparison test; I haven't seen any test where the 330 has beaten the IS 350 in acceleration tests, whether 0-60 or in-gear acceleration on the move (mind you, most comparisons have an auto IS 350 v/s a manual 330 since Lexus does not offer manual IS 350s. Even then the IS 350 beats the BMW in measured tests. BMWs are not only about acceleration, they are about handling preciseness, steering response, driving feel etc., that's why the 3 series consistently beats competition that is quicker than it.

    Neither have I seen any instrumented tests where the Sonata is more responsive on the move than an Accord or the new Camry.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Pedal response is 90% in how the throttle is tuned to deliver the power. My girlfriend's mother's Lexus GX470 (4.7 liter V-8 - gobs of torque compared to anything mentioned above) has an extremely long pedal travel, with very gentle throttle tip-in relative to my I-4 Accord, which jumps off the line with 1 inch of throttle input. Both are elcetronically controlled throttles.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I think ESC kicks in and prevents wheel spin, which is normally a good thing. ;)
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The following press release is about the 2007 Santa Fe, but what caught my eye was this:

    "an optional navigation system
    available in 2007."

    This may mean that Navi will be available next year on the Sonata as well.

    http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-22-200- 6/0004385601&EDATE=
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    The Accord Hybrid may be a bit of a sales flop, but its still a pretty special car...its a total rocket that gets 4 cyl gas mileage. Its not supposed to be an economy car and its not. But if you are performance oriented, its a great choice.
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    I must admit, the interior is pretty nice looking, i just hope the dash materials are not as hard as they appear in the photo. I think the interior works just fine, but what has Chrysler done to the exterior of this car, the design does not flow well at all for me, it looks clunky and bloated. Hopefully it just doesnt photograph well. We'll see.
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    I think it has to do with a hybrid 6 versus a hybrid 4. Although the Accord Hybrid sales have flopped, in my area neither the Hybrid Highlander nor the RX is selling quite well. Honda has the highest CAFE of all major brands. The Civic hybrids are selling quiet well and like the Toyota Hybrid Camry are mostly pre-sold, as are the Prius. At one of my local Toyota dealerships, they had 30 Hybrid Highlanders in stock. Another dealership was giving $4k off of sticker, and they had 15 units. When I attended a workshop on the Toyota hybrids - the dealer said that they had "plenty of inventory" on the Hybrid Highlander. When I went to the Lexus dealership to look at the regular RX, that dealership had 15 Hybrids in stock. Carsdirect was giving ample discounts on the RX hybrid The benefit of the Hybrids with 6 appears marginal at best in terms of fuel economy versus a gasoline 4 (like the Camry or the Accord).
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    In case you didnt know the Northstar isnt really available on anything in this price range. On top of that, the GM cars with the LS4 are faster than the STS because they weigh so much less. I really dont see your point.

    The EPA's figures tend to be optimistic for all cars, not just DoD equipped cars so its silly to act like only GM vehicles wont get the mileage on the stickers.

    The camry's mileage is impressive, but how many miles would one have to drive for the extra 3 to 4 mpg to make a significant difference? The put the DOD cars in perspective, I believe the G35 gets 19/26 and the Mazda 6 with 215hp gets 19/27. When you look at cars other than the camry you see the V8 is pretty efficient.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I think ESC kicks in and prevents wheel spin, which is normally a good thing.

    Huh? My car doesn't have ESC, and the Lexus' throttle tip-in is so senile that it wouldn't chirp the tires unless I pinned the gas pedal to the carpet.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    You are in fantasy land. Have you ever bothered to look at any competitive cars in this class? I doubt that you have. The fit/finish that was once the hallmark of the Accord is now standard on everything from the Sonata to the Malibu. EVERYONE is doing great buid quality these days. This isn't 1990. The Camry and Accord are sales leaders and to that I say so what. One thing I notice about import drivers is that they always use sales as a basis for success when an import is the sales leader. Cadillac sells more DTS' than Mercedes sells S classese but that doesnt mean the DTS is a superior car. The Mazda6 was largely regarded as superior to the last gen camry and yet the camry crushes the 6 in sales because it is an established brand. The F150 crushes the Tundra in sales but that doesnt mean the Tundra is a bad truck.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The camry's mileage is impressive, but how many miles would one have to drive for the extra 3 to 4 mpg to make a significant difference?

    If you consistently buy fuel efficient cars, how long you keep it doesn't matter.

    I have 162,000 miles on my 1996 Accord. I think that if I had gotten 4MPG less (on average), a significant difference would be evident. In fact, I'll do a little math to illustrate.

    In fact, if I got 23 MPG vs. the average 27 MPG over the entire life of the car so far (162,000 miles), I'd use more than 1,000 extra gallons of gasoline, or in today's dollars, about $2,850 (in Birmingham, AL).

    162,000 / 27MPG = 6,000 gallons

    162,000 / 23MPG = 7,043.47 gallons

    1,043.47 gallons extra at an average of $2.80 a gallon, and you have over $2,921 that I have kept as opposed to shelling out to oil companies. In fact, that 4 MPG has outweighed the amount of repairs ever made on my car by over $2,300 (assuming today's prices, which aren't likely to fall much any more)!

    That 4 MPG makes a HUGE difference in my opinion.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    That goes for any engine, not just the LS4. Leave to import lovers to turn an efficient V8 into a negative thing. So I assume you can gun a Camry V6 all around town and still expect to get EPA mileage right? Give me a break. We all know the EPA's estimates are no good if you are an aggressive or fast driver, but those EPA ratings apply to every car so you can at least compare different models.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    YOu are being ridiculous. How many years did it take you to get that many miles? You have to spread out the cost over the number of years you've had the car. You also assume that the V8 and the V6 cars cost the same amount of money. What if the Impala SS cost $1000 or $1500 less than the Camry V6 and you only drive it for 80K miles before getting a new car? That throws your logic out of the window. Most people nowadays do not keep a car for 162k miles. Other people may feel the V8 soundtrack and acceleration are worth an extra $200 a year in gas. Just admit the Impala gets decent mileage and then say the car isnt for you. Just because you dont like it doesnt make it a gas guzzler or a bad buy.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Cadillac sells more DTS' than Mercedes sells S classese but that doesnt mean the DTS is a superior car.

    It's more likely due to Hertz fleet sales and that minor $50,000 (at least) price differential between the two.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Other people may feel the V8 soundtrack and acceleration are worth an extra $200 a year in gas

    I don't doubt it, but that wasn't the question you posed.

    What if the Impala SS cost $1000 or $1500 more than the Camry V6 and you only drive it for 80K miles before getting a new car?

    Once again, all I posted on was fuel economy...you never mentioned price differentials in that post, so back off a little...I cant read your mind and can only post replies to what you actually say in your post...not the pretense behind it.

    On that note though, you'd likely come out much better in the end with higher resale values consistently coming from Toyota.

    Oh, and please refrain from calling me and my posts rediculous...it just isn't necessary.

    Thanks
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    OK smart guy. Chevy sells far more cobalts than Mazda sells of the 3 EVEN IF YOU EXCLUDE FLEET SALES and yet I doubt many people would say the cobalt is the better car. My point still stands.

    The old Escalade outsold the LX470 and yet most people wouldnt consider it a better vehicle. Must be all those Enterprise rentals I suppose.

    I love how every non import that has found some market success is always dismissed as a rental company favorite and nothing more.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    If resale value is you only criteria for buying a car then by all means you should get a Toyota. Of course if a car cost $2000 more when you bought it and then is worth $2300 more when you trade it in 6 years down the road I dont think it's a huge deal. Personally, I dont select cars based on how much they will be worth when I trade them in. To me, that shouldnt be the first, or second, reason you look a particular model.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    OK smart guy. I love how every non import that has found some market success is always dismissed as a rental company favorite.

    Not dismissed, it just is. Not every car that enters fleet sales is a bad car. I really like the new Ford Fusion, and only a couple of factors I wasn't willing to overlook kept me from it. Does it make me a Ford "hater" or a domestic "hater" just because I mention its fleet sale? Nope.

    Again with the hostility too? I can see this forum going south again...the host keeps having to remove posts (as they did recently here).
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    The interior of the sebring looks OK, but it is definitely inspired by the Accord. It looks cheap to me, but perhaps reality is somewhat different. The exterior of the car does nothing for me. It actually looks worse than most Japanese cars in this segment. It's not as ugly as the Galant but everything else has it beat. The features the car offers are impressive though. I really cant find anything they omitted.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If resale value is you only criteria for buying a car then by all means you should get a Toyota. Of course if a car cost $2000 more when you bought it and then is worth $2300 more when you trade it in 6 years down the road I dont think it's a huge deal. Personally, I dont select cars based on how much they will be worth when I trade them in. To me, that shouldnt be the first, or second, reason you look a particular model.

    Couldn't agree more.

    When it's more like $3,000 after 6 years instead of $300 like this however, it becomes a matter of investment to me. I can do a lot with $3,000 as a young man, including put that much more down on my next automobile purchase.

    2000 Impala LS - $6600
    2000 Accord V6 - $9500

    Both w/standard equipment, good condition, 74000 miles.

    Accord equipment:
    Vehicle Details Equipment
    Engine: V6 3.0 Liter VTEC
    Transmission: Automatic
    Drivetrain: FWD
    Mileage: 74,000
    Selected Standard Equipment
    Air Conditioning
    Power Steering
    Power Windows
    Power Door Locks Tilt Wheel
    Cruise Control
    AM/FM Stereo
    Single Compact Disc Dual Front Air Bags
    Moon Roof
    Alloy Wheels

    Impala Equipment:
    Vehicle Details Equipment
    Engine: V6 3.8 Liter
    Transmission: Automatic
    Drivetrain: FWD
    Mileage: 74,000
    Selected Standard Equipment
    Air Conditioning
    Power Steering
    Power Windows
    Power Door Locks Tilt Wheel
    Cruise Control
    AM/FM Stereo
    Single CD
    Dual Front Air Bags
    LH Front Side AirBag
    Traction Control
    Power Seat

    The Impala, as equipped like Accord, went for $24,715.

    The Accord, went for $24,550.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I dont think the forum has to go south just because we arent all on the same "nobody beats Toyota" wavelength. I am able to support anything I say on here and it's nothing personal. The fact of the matter is that many people seem to believe that any fleet sales indicate a car is a failure just because Honda doesnt sell to fleets. There are negatives to fleet sales but they are part of the business. If Ford and GM go out of business then you will have to rent Hondas and Toyotas. Fleet cars are just a fact of life and the Big3 happen to own that part of the market for better or worse. I see so many base model accords and camrys on the road that they might as well be fleet cars.

    The Fusion is a nice effort from Ford, but hardly perfect so you have no argument from me on that point. The 2007 does address some of that cars weaknesses, but not all of them. It still needs 18" wheels, stability and a new center stack.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    OK, but you didnt factor in purchase price. Unless the cars sold for the exact same price you arent losing $3000. You also dont know equipment levels or original MSRPs. You can't do a comparison like that without all the information. How do you know exactly what options were on both cars? Please clarify that. You can bend the numbers all you want, but there is no way around what I am saying.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The 2007 does address some of that cars weaknesses, but not all of them. It still needs 18" wheels, stability and a new center stack.

    Standard 6 airbags and some form of Stability Control are necessary additions IMO. A new stack with higher climate controls is needed too. I could do without the 18"s, since I keep cars long enough to buy several sets of tires (obviously, 162k right?) :) , and 16s are much cheaper than 18s.

    Personally, on the "nobody beats Toyota" idea, I disagree. Toyota, at least every one i've driven, is about as exciting as driving my lawn mower, except the lawn mower actually has some steering feedback. I haven't driven the 2007 Camry, so I can't speak about its addressing the issue of "numbness" in handling/steering.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    standard 6 airbags are there for 2007. I posted that earlier I believe.

    C&D wasnt impressed by the "sporty" new camry. Its basically the same as it ever was only a LOT faster. For all the talk of the camry being such a benchmark the car's best feature is really its engine. I dont see anything else groundbreaking about the car other than the hybrid model. It has some nice features, but not much that isnt already offered on some competitors or will offered on new '07 models like the Altima.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I clarified like you asked...please see my edited (earlier)post for all the details of why I said what I did.

    I have to leave, as I have plans at 7:00PM (CST) and am not ready to go yet!

    Everyone have an enjoyable Thursday night, and remember, tomorrow is FRIDAY!
    Thanks again,

    thegrad
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    "The average torque of BMW 330 is about 50% higher than that of Camry, and about 100% higher than that of Accord. If BMW responds to the press of its acceleration pedal like a rabbit, both Camry and Accord are like a turtle especially when cars are moving. Sonata is more responsive than both Camry and Accord, but not near BMW. This is why Lexus IS350 having an average torque of 0.057 ft-lbs/rpm is a loser in the comparison test with BMW330 although IS350 has 300 HP and 277 ft-lbs torque."

    It is certainly not about having the most horses or torque in terms of acceleration but how well the engine as a whole responds all together as cxc stated.

    The sonata and altima i think have two of the best responding engines way down low in the rpm in the mid size catergory. Accord has some good emergency power when the vtec kicks in during merging lanes.

    But personally i enjoy the instant run acceleration that is provided by the sonatas car, especially from the v6.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    You are in fantasy land. Have you ever bothered to look at any competitive cars in this class? I doubt that you have

    OK knucklehead. I've owned 2 of the cars in this comparo (Accord, Camry) and have test driven the Sonata LX (twice) the Fusion (twice) and the 6. The Accord DEFINITELY has the SUPERIOR interior of ALL these cars. I didn't even think about the joke Malibu. Saying it can hang with an Accord shows your grasp on reality (or lack of). The Impala looks pretty weak as well.

    You'd think that after many years of getting their clocks cleaned in this sector Chevy could put something together better than ImpalBu. So EVERYONE except Chevy is putting out nicer interiors. Chevy's car sales are to A to Bers. Or to little old ladies that don't realize there are better cars out there.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    With all due respect, grad, your gasoline prices need to be adjusted for a comparison over a 10 year period. In my area, gas prices were about $.80 less a year ago than today @ $3.10. Three years ago the price was in the $1.50 +/- range.

    We don't know what will happen to prices in the future (except that inflation will surely come in to play). Adjusted for inflation, gasoline prices about 6 years before you were born were the highest they have ever been. The deregulation of oil resulted in significant price reductions (after an initial, short term price spike).

    Future federal government policies regarding drilling, refining, blended gasoline and taxes can help either reduce or increase the price of car & home heating fuel. But that's an economic or political policy discussion.

    Yes, an extra 4 MPG is always better for our wallets. I could have bought a 4 rather than a V6 and probably obtained the extra 4 mpg. However, with the amount I drive I thought the trade off wasn't worth it.

    If I drive 8,000 mile a year, over a 10 year period, using your MPG figures, I'd be looking at 515 gallons difference. If the average price were $2/gallon (it was lower), then I'd be looking at a price difference of $1,000 or an average of $100 per year.

    Our individual usages should be considered when buying a car, just as it did in your decision to buy the 4 cyl Accord vs the V6. That same consideration can be applied when considering one make compared to another.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    But personally i enjoy the instant run acceleration that is provided by the sonatas car, especially from the v6.

    Don't you think power is more important when passing another car, rather than from the stoplight. When I pass another car, I want to do it as quickly as possible. Why would you want to beat the guy next to you at the red light, to the next red light? The Accord V6 has more power in the right place for me. What are you doing? Drag racing?
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    My '05 Sonata with "only" 170 hp, has plenty of juice when accelerating from 50 to 70. The '06 is most likely better.

    A friend who has a V8 Merc Mountaineer couldn't believe the passing power on my Sonata (more than his Merc). Maybe it's the torque, maybe the matching of tranny to engine, whatever. Anyway, if this '05 Sonata can't pass safely, I shouldn't consider passing in the same situation, unless maybe, I was driving a Dodge Viper.
  • joblowjoblow Member Posts: 11
    You sure show your real colours ,everytime someone in here has something good to say about the Sonata you have some wisecrack comment.Why are you so threatened,we all know you are a Honda maniac,we also know you don't like the Sonata,but why always some smart comment when someone else likes something different than you? The guy expressed what he liked about the Sonata and that should have been good enough,but not for you.If he doesn't like Honda as you do, doesn't make him wrong.Everyone is entitled to their opinions and likes and dislikes.You go beyond a opinion ,you are obsessed with Honda and ridicule everyone that isn't.I read in here that some are saying too much about the Sonata and it is boring.Maybe its because Honda isn't the be all for everyone and they want to talk about their Sonata.I think that says a lot about the Sonata,there are many supporters.Also there is an awful lot in here about Honda and that doesn't seem to bother us Sonata owners.This is an open forum and I enjoy it,I enjoy reading everyones thoughts and opinions,but your posts tend to attack certain types with unclassy comments.Honda is not the only good vehicle and folks do not have to agree with you to be right about their choice of vehicle. If you are bored or bothered by us then don't reply or read the posts.Respect others opinions ,they don't all have to agree with you!
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    But the GM cars are discounted like $3k at the least to what-say some $5K off. No one, completly sane, would ever pay retail for an Impala. Now, which car would be more of a pleasure to own is another factor all together. I would imagine the Impala could be the cheapest, if you paid say $4k less, and invested that money in stocks with gains of 10 to 20% a year, you would have enough to upgrade next buy time - six years down the road :shades: Gee ya may have some $7K more to spend! Or you could buy a four banger Accord, or say a Sonata V6 for around $20K.
    -Loren
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    "The sonata and altima i think have two of the best responding engines way down low in the rpm in the mid size catergory. Accord has some good emergency power when the vtec kicks in during merging lanes."

    Choe13, you've been a Sonata fan for a long time on here but come on now. Again the Sonata's engine is nothing to get excited about in this segment and no way near the Nissan Altima. I mean look at the numbers. You expect engines "responding way down low" to be quick 0-60. The Accord, Altima, and Camry out run the Sonata, period. The engines in those cars are better V6s than in the Sonata. The BMW V6s are in a different class by themself. Teamed up with pin point steering, those V6s give BMW the right to be the pinnacle of the 3-Series' segment.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    "Objectively speaking, the Sonata 3.3L V6 is more than adequate for the needs of today's driving. The engine is smooth and extremly quite, even at full throttle."

    I was responding to someone's post saying "V6's just don't get much better than the Sonata's" which has nothing to do with whether or not the engine is adequate for normal driving. It is an engine comparison issue where the Sonata comes up short.

    "By the way, as for this discussion, midsize sedans, I wasn't aware Toyota and Nissan, respectively, are hitting 300+hp with their offering of family sedans."

    Again, I was refering to the comment that "V6's just don't get much better than the Sonata's". That's when the 300+ VQ and Toyota engines sprung up. In its segment as I mentioned in other posts, the Sonata engine isn't anything to write home about either. The Accord, Altima, and Camry V6s eat it all day long and Ford has a 3.5 that will make it into the Fusion that will also make it road kill (almost literally. Toyota's engine by the way is also very smoothe and quiet. Also, most people buying a V6 like a little engine roar. Lexus had to find a way to tune some into the IS350 because the car, with 305hp, was too silent.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The engines in those cars are better V6s than in the Sonata. The BMW V6s are in a different class by themself.

    I think both of those statements are false at worst, and impossible to prove at best. I think all 4 engines will out last the BMW. I have no confidence in any of the German cars until they turn their quality around.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    What happened to inline 6? I thought all BMWs are inline 6. Maybe some new cars with a V6 now? Where did you hear of bad engines in any BMW?
    -Loren
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I was responding to someone's post saying "V6's just don't get much better than the Sonata's" which has nothing to do with whether or not the engine is adequate for normal driving. It is an engine comparison issue where the Sonata comes up short.

    What are you, some kind of engine designer? I effectively said the other V6 engines in the class may be better than the Sonata's, but not much. You act as though you are offended by my even mentioning Sonata's engine with your favorites. I wish you would pay attention and quit reading things into my posts that I did not really say. You conveniently ignored the truth. The truth is, the Sonata's V6 is so smooth you can't detect it idling inside the cabin. What good would it do to make a smoother engine? It's also jet smooth under acceleration up to 130+ mph, and has a rich sounding growl under full throttle. It will only last ~300K miles, so the Honda's and Camry's will probably out last it. But probably not the Altima's, Fusion's, and BMW's. I may be wrong, but I bet I'm very close.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well if you are in dire need of a few more ponies than the Sonata has, there is the Azera, with the larger 3.8 V6. I think all those mentioned are just fine V6 engines for a sedan. If price is no object, people would most likely get an Accord V6 or the an Altima, Camry as other favored choices. The Sonata and Fusion will be more value plays. That is if Ford dealers heavily discount; which I am sure they will. Coming soon, is the Aura, so here we go with yet another choice. Oops, did people forget the GM line of sedans with V6 engines? The most talk seems to be of the 3.6 V6 as GMs great hope in the V6 wars. Guess that is the one to go head to head with big boys, like Honda and Toyota. Guess it is worthy of same class status? What ya think?
    -Loren
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    i know your a camcord fan but come on now lets be real. I was talking about low end rpm pull and how the engine works all together in matters of seconds and here you are talking about 0-60?

    you can have the accords engine since its your favorite, but its not mine, i don't like engine revving to the max anymore at this age. I like lower rpm pull, it has a higher luxury feel to me

    the accord is suppose to be more on the sports side, so its vtech is very good for revving but you definitely don't get the same kind of initial pull as the sonata
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