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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Comments
The folks at Edmunds.com said themselves: "With the anticipation of parents watching their child win a spelling bee with the final letter, we watched the Camry's point total edge out the Accord's by a 0.64 margin. Despite what this might indicate, there really was no dispute regarding which of these four cars should win the comparison.
In truth, however, after the first five minutes behind the wheel of the all-new 2007 Camry, each evaluator came away with the same impression: "This is a Camry?" Every so often, an automaker produces something so extraordinary that it manages to not only eclipse its own predecessor, but also succeeds in making the competition appear obsolete."
Those are pretty strong words.
"I think they [Nissan] are waiting to see how Toyota and Honda's hybrid vehicles pan out before they get into the game. I think Nissan is ONLY using the Hybrid so that it can met some type of gas mileage requirement (or so I heard, and I work for a Nissan dealer now)"
Uhm, what? The success of the Prius, the RX-h, GS-h the Highlander Hybrid, and the wait lists for this Camry arent indication?
And actually, in the case of the Civic vs. Corolla, its the opposite scenario- the Corolla has the benefit of second release, and with the last generation, outpointed the Civic (reference: C/D comparo, Nov 2002 of 2003 models).
"If Honda plays is cards right (and avoids the styling of the Civic) the Accord will be fine...and I work for a Nissan dealership....and I'll be the first to admit that...folks really will play on the "value" card then."
Again, what? The Civic is selling over 10% better than its predecessor, has won numerous awards, from Motor Trend's Car of the Year to the first in class EVER to achieve a Gold IIHS recognition for Front, Side, and Rear impact protection. So what is the negative of the Civic....
But wait, you reminded us... this is a comparison about the Midsize Sedans.
So what's your point?
~alpha
But back to the topic...my point was that typically Honda's vehicles do better in comparison to others in the class...and I will continue to believe that they will do the same thing again..they always have... Honda's have typically done VERY well in comparsion with other vehicles...not in just the midsize realm but in other classes as well.
And you are right, what Edmunds had to say about the Camry and Accord makes perfect sense, sometimes it's not about the numbers (as many a Camcordnata owner can tell you.) but when the cold data is that close, credit is still due to those who deserve it. I'm quite impressed that even despite it's age, the Accord was BARELY beaten by the Camry in a comparison test. Impressive in the least. Rather the Camry was "the winner" based on other reasoning, the fact that the Accord still came that close despite it's age is downright impressive and makes me wonder just what Honda's gonna do next.
The Prius and Highlander are in a TOTALLY different class from the Accord, Camry and Altima...my POINT was that Nissan's Altima Hybrid is simply a vehicle Nissan is using to get a few Hybrid sales here and there and that Ghosn doesn't believe in the technology. So they are "testing" the waters with a limited number of Hybrid Altimas. I won't see one in South Carolina... As one can see the Accord didn't do so hot (V6-performance based) but the Camry seems to be succesful so far. And your whole point on successful Hybrids is nice, except for the fact that Nissan would have no idea that Camry Hybrids would be on waiting list when they planned their Hybrid with Toyota.
Just because cars like the PRIUS sell, doesn't mean the comparable midsize sedans with the technology will sell as well, aka the Accord, even though it has a rather strange V6/Hybrid combo. Camry Hybrid is a success because Toyota is the leader in the technology. Nissan is just getting into it...with the use of Toyota's older system...I don't think Nissan would see the same success as Toyota, Honda or even Ford if they produced Hybrid Altimas... Further, Nissan isn't really known for gas mileage so chances are it would be a wash. Nissan is tight with the all mighty dollar, they aren't going to invest in something that they don't believe in..rather they are wrong or right.
And as far as "complaining" about 13K Sonata Limited? You won't see me complaining about one...chances are, I'll probably scoop one up for my niece...lol...because if they ever do get that cheap, I'll buy two as well. It was a joke...because can't some folks get Sonata LX's for like 17K now already?
I have a feeling that based on the HAH experience that Honda will stay away from hybrids for larger vehicles concentrating on the HCH and the Fit hybrid.
Now for the Accord, Ody, MDX, Pilot..... diesel. Blam same savings as the hybrids with proven experience.
The really huge problem is to educate the public that it's OK and 'green' to drive a diesel. The new technology might be somewhat costly too - but then so are hybrids and the task is to reduce the cost.
Now combine both technologies and somebody has a huge jump on the market. Wanna bet 6 big companies ( MB, T, GM, H, BMW, F ) are all hiding some really interesting technology waiting for the ULSD to be available everywhere here.
snippet: only comes with a 4-cylinder ...Meanwhile, the AURA XE comes with a standard V6
I mentioned in a prior post that I like the look of the Aura very much and it should be a worth competitor in the field ..'.if GM doesn't screw it up.' I think they just did. IMO that have just marginalized it to the relatively small part of the midsized market that wants a V6 in lieu of the efficiency of the I4. Honda, Toyota and Nissan all sell well in excess of 60% of their vehicles as I4's. GM just told all these frugal shoppers to 'Get lost, go see the transplants' Yes there is still a large part of the market that wants V6 power and they may be able to fill the plant with V6's but GM is attempting to impose its product mentality on the market. IMO this can only end in failure or marginalizing the vehicle. I think it just became a small niche player like the Mazda's.
This is a completely new design following the Five Hundred which is ranked first in it's class.
The vehicle aside this is a massive corporate crime on the part of the product managers and plant managers and engineers at Ford to allow its new flagship midsize sedan to fail to show well. Heck it ranks below the outdated Chrysler product. Any rational buyer looking for safety will immediately eliminate the Ford entries from consideration.
If any Ford manager/engineer involved with the crash testing of the F/M twins survived this fiasco it would shock me. It makes the vehicle look unnecessarily bad>
Who wants their brand spanking new vehilce to be rated last from jump street?
or
Mazda 6 vs. Honda Accord EX
All 4 cylinder engines.
Which car would you choose and why?
Just my opinion, and I drive two Hondas, so I'm definitely biased, but keep in mind that I'm biased for a reason!
Some pics of the Sebring interior. Take note, the cupholder is refridgerated.
BMW 330: 255HP@6600 rpm, 220 ft-lbs@2750 rpm, average torque= 0.080 ft-lbs/rpm
Sonata :235 HP@6000rpm, 226 ft-lbs@3500 rpm, average torque=0.065 ft-lbs/rpm
Camry: 268 HP@6200 rpm, 248 ft-lbs@4700 rpm, average torque = 0.053 ft-lbs/rpm
Accord: 244HP@6224rpm, 211 ft-lbs@5000 rpm, average torque = 0.041 ft-lbs/rpm
The average torque of BMW 330 is about 50% higher than that of Camry, and about 100% higher than that of Accord. If BMW responds to the press of its acceleration pedal like a rabbit, both Camry and Accord are like a turtle especially when cars are moving. Sonata is more responsive than both Camry and Accord, but not near BMW. This is why Lexus IS350 having an average torque of 0.057 ft-lbs/rpm is a loser in the comparison test with BMW330 although IS350 has 300 HP and 277 ft-lbs torque.
Its about where in the RPM range the maximum torque happens. If it happens at a low RPM, the car will be more responsive off the line; if it occurs at higher RPM, the car will take off at higher revs. While on the move, there are many variables like gearing, and thats where BMWs shine.
As for the IS 350 losing to the 330 in a comparison test; I haven't seen any test where the 330 has beaten the IS 350 in acceleration tests, whether 0-60 or in-gear acceleration on the move (mind you, most comparisons have an auto IS 350 v/s a manual 330 since Lexus does not offer manual IS 350s. Even then the IS 350 beats the BMW in measured tests. BMWs are not only about acceleration, they are about handling preciseness, steering response, driving feel etc., that's why the 3 series consistently beats competition that is quicker than it.
Neither have I seen any instrumented tests where the Sonata is more responsive on the move than an Accord or the new Camry.
"an optional navigation system
available in 2007."
This may mean that Navi will be available next year on the Sonata as well.
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-22-200- 6/0004385601&EDATE=
The EPA's figures tend to be optimistic for all cars, not just DoD equipped cars so its silly to act like only GM vehicles wont get the mileage on the stickers.
The camry's mileage is impressive, but how many miles would one have to drive for the extra 3 to 4 mpg to make a significant difference? The put the DOD cars in perspective, I believe the G35 gets 19/26 and the Mazda 6 with 215hp gets 19/27. When you look at cars other than the camry you see the V8 is pretty efficient.
Huh? My car doesn't have ESC, and the Lexus' throttle tip-in is so senile that it wouldn't chirp the tires unless I pinned the gas pedal to the carpet.
If you consistently buy fuel efficient cars, how long you keep it doesn't matter.
I have 162,000 miles on my 1996 Accord. I think that if I had gotten 4MPG less (on average), a significant difference would be evident. In fact, I'll do a little math to illustrate.
In fact, if I got 23 MPG vs. the average 27 MPG over the entire life of the car so far (162,000 miles), I'd use more than 1,000 extra gallons of gasoline, or in today's dollars, about $2,850 (in Birmingham, AL).
162,000 / 27MPG = 6,000 gallons
162,000 / 23MPG = 7,043.47 gallons
1,043.47 gallons extra at an average of $2.80 a gallon, and you have over $2,921 that I have kept as opposed to shelling out to oil companies. In fact, that 4 MPG has outweighed the amount of repairs ever made on my car by over $2,300 (assuming today's prices, which aren't likely to fall much any more)!
That 4 MPG makes a HUGE difference in my opinion.
It's more likely due to Hertz fleet sales and that minor $50,000 (at least) price differential between the two.
I don't doubt it, but that wasn't the question you posed.
What if the Impala SS cost $1000 or $1500 more than the Camry V6 and you only drive it for 80K miles before getting a new car?
Once again, all I posted on was fuel economy...you never mentioned price differentials in that post, so back off a little...I cant read your mind and can only post replies to what you actually say in your post...not the pretense behind it.
On that note though, you'd likely come out much better in the end with higher resale values consistently coming from Toyota.
Oh, and please refrain from calling me and my posts rediculous...it just isn't necessary.
Thanks
The old Escalade outsold the LX470 and yet most people wouldnt consider it a better vehicle. Must be all those Enterprise rentals I suppose.
I love how every non import that has found some market success is always dismissed as a rental company favorite and nothing more.
Not dismissed, it just is. Not every car that enters fleet sales is a bad car. I really like the new Ford Fusion, and only a couple of factors I wasn't willing to overlook kept me from it. Does it make me a Ford "hater" or a domestic "hater" just because I mention its fleet sale? Nope.
Again with the hostility too? I can see this forum going south again...the host keeps having to remove posts (as they did recently here).
Couldn't agree more.
When it's more like $3,000 after 6 years instead of $300 like this however, it becomes a matter of investment to me. I can do a lot with $3,000 as a young man, including put that much more down on my next automobile purchase.
2000 Impala LS - $6600
2000 Accord V6 - $9500
Both w/standard equipment, good condition, 74000 miles.
Accord equipment:
Vehicle Details Equipment
Engine: V6 3.0 Liter VTEC
Transmission: Automatic
Drivetrain: FWD
Mileage: 74,000
Selected Standard Equipment
Air Conditioning
Power Steering
Power Windows
Power Door Locks Tilt Wheel
Cruise Control
AM/FM Stereo
Single Compact Disc Dual Front Air Bags
Moon Roof
Alloy Wheels
Impala Equipment:
Vehicle Details Equipment
Engine: V6 3.8 Liter
Transmission: Automatic
Drivetrain: FWD
Mileage: 74,000
Selected Standard Equipment
Air Conditioning
Power Steering
Power Windows
Power Door Locks Tilt Wheel
Cruise Control
AM/FM Stereo
Single CD
Dual Front Air Bags
LH Front Side AirBag
Traction Control
Power Seat
The Impala, as equipped like Accord, went for $24,715.
The Accord, went for $24,550.
The Fusion is a nice effort from Ford, but hardly perfect so you have no argument from me on that point. The 2007 does address some of that cars weaknesses, but not all of them. It still needs 18" wheels, stability and a new center stack.
Standard 6 airbags and some form of Stability Control are necessary additions IMO. A new stack with higher climate controls is needed too. I could do without the 18"s, since I keep cars long enough to buy several sets of tires (obviously, 162k right?) , and 16s are much cheaper than 18s.
Personally, on the "nobody beats Toyota" idea, I disagree. Toyota, at least every one i've driven, is about as exciting as driving my lawn mower, except the lawn mower actually has some steering feedback. I haven't driven the 2007 Camry, so I can't speak about its addressing the issue of "numbness" in handling/steering.
C&D wasnt impressed by the "sporty" new camry. Its basically the same as it ever was only a LOT faster. For all the talk of the camry being such a benchmark the car's best feature is really its engine. I dont see anything else groundbreaking about the car other than the hybrid model. It has some nice features, but not much that isnt already offered on some competitors or will offered on new '07 models like the Altima.
I have to leave, as I have plans at 7:00PM (CST) and am not ready to go yet!
Everyone have an enjoyable Thursday night, and remember, tomorrow is FRIDAY!
Thanks again,
thegrad
It is certainly not about having the most horses or torque in terms of acceleration but how well the engine as a whole responds all together as cxc stated.
The sonata and altima i think have two of the best responding engines way down low in the rpm in the mid size catergory. Accord has some good emergency power when the vtec kicks in during merging lanes.
But personally i enjoy the instant run acceleration that is provided by the sonatas car, especially from the v6.
OK knucklehead. I've owned 2 of the cars in this comparo (Accord, Camry) and have test driven the Sonata LX (twice) the Fusion (twice) and the 6. The Accord DEFINITELY has the SUPERIOR interior of ALL these cars. I didn't even think about the joke Malibu. Saying it can hang with an Accord shows your grasp on reality (or lack of). The Impala looks pretty weak as well.
You'd think that after many years of getting their clocks cleaned in this sector Chevy could put something together better than ImpalBu. So EVERYONE except Chevy is putting out nicer interiors. Chevy's car sales are to A to Bers. Or to little old ladies that don't realize there are better cars out there.
We don't know what will happen to prices in the future (except that inflation will surely come in to play). Adjusted for inflation, gasoline prices about 6 years before you were born were the highest they have ever been. The deregulation of oil resulted in significant price reductions (after an initial, short term price spike).
Future federal government policies regarding drilling, refining, blended gasoline and taxes can help either reduce or increase the price of car & home heating fuel. But that's an economic or political policy discussion.
Yes, an extra 4 MPG is always better for our wallets. I could have bought a 4 rather than a V6 and probably obtained the extra 4 mpg. However, with the amount I drive I thought the trade off wasn't worth it.
If I drive 8,000 mile a year, over a 10 year period, using your MPG figures, I'd be looking at 515 gallons difference. If the average price were $2/gallon (it was lower), then I'd be looking at a price difference of $1,000 or an average of $100 per year.
Our individual usages should be considered when buying a car, just as it did in your decision to buy the 4 cyl Accord vs the V6. That same consideration can be applied when considering one make compared to another.
Don't you think power is more important when passing another car, rather than from the stoplight. When I pass another car, I want to do it as quickly as possible. Why would you want to beat the guy next to you at the red light, to the next red light? The Accord V6 has more power in the right place for me. What are you doing? Drag racing?
A friend who has a V8 Merc Mountaineer couldn't believe the passing power on my Sonata (more than his Merc). Maybe it's the torque, maybe the matching of tranny to engine, whatever. Anyway, if this '05 Sonata can't pass safely, I shouldn't consider passing in the same situation, unless maybe, I was driving a Dodge Viper.
-Loren
Choe13, you've been a Sonata fan for a long time on here but come on now. Again the Sonata's engine is nothing to get excited about in this segment and no way near the Nissan Altima. I mean look at the numbers. You expect engines "responding way down low" to be quick 0-60. The Accord, Altima, and Camry out run the Sonata, period. The engines in those cars are better V6s than in the Sonata. The BMW V6s are in a different class by themself. Teamed up with pin point steering, those V6s give BMW the right to be the pinnacle of the 3-Series' segment.
I was responding to someone's post saying "V6's just don't get much better than the Sonata's" which has nothing to do with whether or not the engine is adequate for normal driving. It is an engine comparison issue where the Sonata comes up short.
"By the way, as for this discussion, midsize sedans, I wasn't aware Toyota and Nissan, respectively, are hitting 300+hp with their offering of family sedans."
Again, I was refering to the comment that "V6's just don't get much better than the Sonata's". That's when the 300+ VQ and Toyota engines sprung up. In its segment as I mentioned in other posts, the Sonata engine isn't anything to write home about either. The Accord, Altima, and Camry V6s eat it all day long and Ford has a 3.5 that will make it into the Fusion that will also make it road kill (almost literally. Toyota's engine by the way is also very smoothe and quiet. Also, most people buying a V6 like a little engine roar. Lexus had to find a way to tune some into the IS350 because the car, with 305hp, was too silent.
I think both of those statements are false at worst, and impossible to prove at best. I think all 4 engines will out last the BMW. I have no confidence in any of the German cars until they turn their quality around.
-Loren
What are you, some kind of engine designer? I effectively said the other V6 engines in the class may be better than the Sonata's, but not much. You act as though you are offended by my even mentioning Sonata's engine with your favorites. I wish you would pay attention and quit reading things into my posts that I did not really say. You conveniently ignored the truth. The truth is, the Sonata's V6 is so smooth you can't detect it idling inside the cabin. What good would it do to make a smoother engine? It's also jet smooth under acceleration up to 130+ mph, and has a rich sounding growl under full throttle. It will only last ~300K miles, so the Honda's and Camry's will probably out last it. But probably not the Altima's, Fusion's, and BMW's. I may be wrong, but I bet I'm very close.
-Loren
you can have the accords engine since its your favorite, but its not mine, i don't like engine revving to the max anymore at this age. I like lower rpm pull, it has a higher luxury feel to me
the accord is suppose to be more on the sports side, so its vtech is very good for revving but you definitely don't get the same kind of initial pull as the sonata