Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

mf15 · June 2006

Yes you read correctly on the 07 Altima Nov/Dec introduction. I know I will give it a test drive. Hopefully Nissan will hold the line on price with the added safety content and overall improved Altima. I may encourage my son to trade his 05 V6 Altima in for the added safety features.
I also find it interesting that VW is dropping the price and decontenting the 07 Jetta. The 30,000 Jetta and 36,000
MSRP Passat are a bit much,nice cars I am sure. Old Mike

autoboy16 · June 2006

and dropping the 1.9 TDI for a new 2.0 tdi. Thats sad because with ULSD on sale in the states, they're going to loose sales

kdhspyder · June 2006

Ahh but this is not known. There is a lot of supposition about what is going on and some drivers have very specific data but there is nothing to either prove or disprove that there is a 'major defect' as you say.

Since the vast majority of owners have not reported problems it's probably safe to say that the problem can be isolated, such as the 160 V6 units, or is driver related in getting used to the new type of electronic vehicle or is random in the programming which is much more serious until the bug is found.

There have been significant other problems of this nature in recent vehicles which were reported, then investigated then serviced and all of them went away;e.g.
-Sienna gas tank support
-Prius software issue
-4Runner unpainted bumper issue ( sales issue ).

Again I have no doubt that this issue too will be solved in a short time. Whether the solution satisfies 'everyone' is different. Those reporting results on the 160 V6 units all seem quite happy thus far.

In the other forum this link was posted and it is telling:

m1miata · June 2006

VSA - The motto: Don't Leave Home Without It.
Oh dang, someone's got that one already.

So who was first? The ads I can recall seeing the ESC as a featured safety item on their autos were the Cadillacs. The StabiliTrak®.

Least expensive with this feature has to be the Hyundai.
-Loren

m1miata · June 2006

Moonroof?
Isn't watching the moon while driving dangerous. Or do you stop the car first before gazing.

Never understood why people want those, but I guess if it is included for free, for those wanting, then that is a good thing.
-Loren

backy · June 2006

Interesting article in the latest C/D mag. Big kudos were given in the article to Hyundai for its Sonata ad that shows off the car's active safety features, including ESC. The car heads straight for the crash barrier, but instead of hitting it, it swerves at the last second. A couple of other barriers come flying towards the car and it avoids those also.

Maybe that explains why the Sonata's IIHS side crash test score was merely "Acceptable"--it just avoids the vehicles bearing down on it.

backy · June 2006

Moonroof as in it's glass so you can see the moon through it. Sunroofs are solid. I don't know if anyone makes those anymore though.

The moonroof on my car comes in pretty handy for fresh-air venting w/o a lot of noise or buffeting, and for cooling off the car when parked in warm weather (leave it cracked) and heating it up in cold weather (leave the sunshade open). Funny how you can find yourself "needing" things that you lived most of a lifetime without.

bobad · June 2006

Funny how you can find yourself "needing" things that you lived most of a lifetime without.

I had one on my Audi. I tried it a couple of times when the car was new, but the exhaust fumes, noise, heat, and dust made me close it after a few minutes. The last 8 or 9 years it was never opened. It also had a little wind noise when closed. I said "never again". I guess it would have been OK, but I seldom drive in the country.

backy · June 2006

I almost never drive in the country either. But I must live in a cleaner city than you do.

I actually did use the moonroof feature, literally, once, on a 626. It was on a date a long time ago on a beautiful moonlit night. Nice feature.

joe97 · June 2006

From Hyundai:

NEW FOR 2007
MSRP reductions from $500  $800 on GLS 4-cylinder models
New SE model features standard 17-inch wheels and tires and a 234 hp. 3.3 liter V-6 engine
New top-of-the-line Limited model features a new chrome grille and an optional Infinity® premium CD changer audio system
Five star crash safety rating
Dark Cherry Red and Natural Khaki added to paint choices
Black leather interior optional on Limited trim
XM® satellite radio standard (late availability)
Engines now meet Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (LEV-II ULEV)
Improved steering wheel audio controls (late availability)

More standard features and options available across the entire line - http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/sonata/pricing/pricing.aspx | http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/sonata/trim/comparetrim.aspx

backy · June 2006

Don't know where they get "more standard features and options available across the entire line." More options, maybe--because there are fewer standard features, particularly on the GLS, which has been radically de-contented, although the price has gone down also. But compared to comparably-equipped 2006 GLSes, the price is about the same for 2007--at least until we know whether the price will increase when XM is added.

bhmr59 · June 2006

I haven't checked the features of the '07 since they first came out and didn't really pay than much attention at that time. However, they've renamed the trim levels as you know.

What they are probably saying is the '07 GLS (de-contented from the '06 GLS) has more standard features than the '06 GL. In other words, the new lowest trim level has more standard features than the '06 lowest trim level. The same for '07 SE vs '06 GLS (the 6 cyl was an option on the '06 GLS, etc).

And, of course, there's that "late availability" disclaimer which means they could be including late availability features as being "more" stuff than in '06.

The sub-model name change as it applies to the trim line name change will confuse many people.

jrock65 · June 2006

"Ahh but this is not known. There is a lot of supposition about what is going on and some drivers have very specific data but there is nothing to either prove or disprove that there is a 'major defect' as you say."

???
I'm talking about the V6 snap ring issue that Toyota has admitted. If that is not a major defect, I don't know what is. It prevents the car from functioning.

Toyota first admitted the problem more than two months ago. People who bought a V6 Camry as recently as two weeks ago are having the snap ring problem and transmission failure. So this only leads to one conclusion: Toyota is still selling defective cars.

"Whether the solution satisfies 'everyone' is different. Those reporting results on the 160 V6 units all seem quite happy thus far."

First, the Toyota representative has stated that the 160 was an underestimate, and that the number is larger (although still a minority of the cars).

Second, the statement that ALL seem quite happy is simply untrue. There are numerous people who have reported that they are very UNHAPPY with the way that their defective transmission situation has been handled.

w9cw · June 2006

The 2007 Sonata GLS really hasn't been decontented, because it's the 2006 GL, simply renamed the GLS. The old GL trim is now history, and the GLS is now the base model. The 2006 GLS is now the 2007 SE.

Frankly, I think the changing trim line nomenclature for 2007 is a big mistake by Hyundai. A company spends all that money to gain name and trim recognition in the marketplace, and then they go and change it?? Why . . .

Look at the Accord: LX and EX, and it's been that way for a long time. Same with the Camry: the LE, SE, and XLE trims has been around for a long time as well. I'm a fan of Hyundai, but from a marketing perspective, the change in trim lines on the Sonata is a bad move. At the very least, it's confusing to the consumer.

Their option packages, however, are well thought-out for 2007, and now you can get a power driver's seat at a reasonable price.

mfletou1 · June 2006

Having been a GM guy my whole life, I finally became ready to take the plunge and buy something else after reaching a breaking point with my cars. I have a long commute in Metro DC, and I carpool with my wife. We take the HOV lane. Well, life changes, and now we have a little one on the way. The end result will be that she won't be carpooling with me anymore!

So, I decided to buy a hybrid car and get the HOV exemption. I've always been impressed with the Honda Accord, and now deals were to be had on Hybrids. I think it looks classy, good interior qualities, and the V6 is powerful and fast. On my test drive, I liked it, but was a little disappointed with the amount of room up front--I've got long legs and felt cramped now matter how hard I tried to adjust everything. Headroom wasn't the best either. I was still seriously considering buying the car, but something made me check out the 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid...

And that's what is now sitting in my driveway. With the tax incentive ($2600) this car is a great deal. In all trim levels, this car is simply a generation ahead of the competition. The Camry's that I've driven in the past have felt too much like Buicks for me---not this one. Body lean is gone. It handles nicely. In the Hybrid, a 45 HP electric motor augments the VTEC 4 cyl with CVT. Its not a slow car. I see that CR had it at 8.4 to 60...Edmunds had it even slower. But Car and Driver had it at 7.7 and Road and Track at 7.3 . It feels high 7's, to me. Today on the way home I was getting 55 mpg while traveling 78 mph.

The interior of this car is just a step ahead of everything else. There really is a difference. The Accord felt like its age after driving the Camry in virtually every regard...the Camry looks fresher, the materials are an even higher quality, the stereo system is outstanding (440 watt JBL), I have steering wheel mounted controls for climate and audio, the car is bluetooth enable, etc etc. And, its incredibly quiet.

So, after resisting for so long....yeah, I'm a believer. you get what you pay for. For $26500 (with a sunroof and mirror package), not including the $2600 tax incentive I'm getting an exceptionally well built, state of the art midsize sedan with luxury features that happens to get 38 mpg. I happen to think it looks great, especially in my Barcelona Red. People who I've shown it to so far are blown away by it.

jrock65 · June 2006

"In all trim levels, this car is simply a generation ahead of the competition."

In all trim levels?

In what ways is the Camry LE 4 cyl. (the volume seller) "a generation ahead" of the Accord LX 4 cyl. or the Sonata GLS?

prosource1 · June 2006

Let's face it, there are a number of veryyyyy good mid-size cars out there and if we all agreed on what we would buy, there would be 5 or 6 other car companies out of existence. For those who are down on Hyundai/Kia, keep in mind that the competitive models they are offering forces the hands of the established automakers to keep their offerings fresh and high in content. Honda's recent refreshing of the Accord, I believe to keep fresh with the redesigned new Camry coming from Toyota and the very big offering of the Hyundai Sonata, is an example of a company that is forced to make changes to their model. Keep in mind that Honda has not traditionally made such changes this early in their model cycle. It's all good for the consumer when Hyundai surprises the market and dishes up a world-class Sonata, when Ford offers us a Fusion rather than a Taurus or Chrysler or Saturn offers the market interesting new models. Let's also face it, no matter how good the Accord or Camry is, some of us just don't want an Accord or a Camry for the obvious reasons. Also, if Honda and Toyota could dominate in the US, as Ford and GM did a few decades ago, we would see design and engineering advances grind to a halt and de-contenting would ensue. I'm sure of it

backy · June 2006

Actually the GLS has been de-contented, even considering the trim changes. Alloys and fog lamps are no longer part of the GLS trim (they were standard) unless you buy a $1700 options package (but at least the alloys are 17 inchers now). (There is an error on the HMA web site about fog lamps--one page shows them as being standard on the GLS, another shows them in an options package.) Floor mats now cost $85; they used to be included on the GLS and higher trim levels. The GLS used to include metal step-plates. I don't see that feature listed anymore. The good news is the availability of a power seat at a much lower price, and that is a big deal. And if the XM radio and upgraded steering wheel controls are added at no price increase, then the 2007 looks better.

lightfootfl · June 2006

Regarding the various different vehicles in this forum, and even those that are not, the majority of today's vehicles are so much better than even 10 years ago there really is no comparison, except "better" today. However the problem of old and today too is more, IMO, related to the dealers, and servicers of the vehicles. Personally I would never consider dealing with our local Toyota dealer (because of service dept), and have qualms about the Honda guy (sales dept). They have proven themselves unreliable, and unfair to their customers. I personally would be driving either of those vehicles if it were not for these dealers. Too bad the factories can't control that better. Instead, I am quite happy (so far anyway) with the Hyundai guy. My 2006 Sonata LX equals or exceeds in most ways those others, IMO, although I am still disappointed in the mileages. Oh well, can't win them all. BTW, I have been driving a Nissan Altima this week (rental) and it too seems OK, except the engine/road noise in the cabin is intolerably loud to my old ears that are used to relative quiet. IMO,I would not want to have one of these permanently. Like they say different strokes, etc...
van

94hawkskin · June 2006

For me the 2006 GLS was better because I have no problem finding a comfortable position with the manual seat and I really wanted the Alloy wheels. Plus, those steel side step plates really look nice.

bhmr59 · June 2006

Alloys & fog lights were not standard on the '06 GL. The '07 GLS is the '06 GL. The '07 SE is the '06 GLS V6.

w9cw · June 2006

Backy, I think your missing my point. As per the post above, if you compare the 2006 Sonata GLS to the 2007 Sonata GLS -- yes, the 2007 GLS has been decontented. But, the 2007 GLS is no longer the middle trim level as it was for the 2006 model year, it's now the base model, a.k.a. same as the 2006 GL. The 2006 GL didn't have alloys or fog lamps, nor does the GL's replacement for 2007 - the "new" GLS. So, it's easier to just forget what a GLS "was." Hyundai simply replaced the names of the trim levels for 2007: 2006 GL = 2007 GLS, 2006 GLS = 2007 SE, and 2006 LX = 2007 Limited. Ah, don't we all love semantics.

This is exactly why I stated that Hyundai made a marketing mistake here with the reallocation of the Sonata's trim levels, as it does nothing but confuse people.

bobad · June 2006

This is exactly why I stated that Hyundai made a marketing mistake here with the reallocation of the Sonata's trim levels, as it does nothing but confuse people.

I guess it could be confusing to current owners, but I don't think it will confuse new customers. They have little frame of reference to get confused with changes. When I go car shopping, the first thing I do is familiarize myself with the packages. It doesn't matter whether they're called package A, B, C or 1,2,3 as long as I know what they are.

pat · June 2006

Let's stick to the cars.

Some posts have been removed.

Edit: this post is directed to those who have had a recent post disappear. It's not directed to the post immediately preceding this one.

kdhspyder · June 2006

Not exactly.

The V6 snap ring is a major mechanical manufacturing error and while the initial 160 units was an underestimate according to Toyota what I was stating, or meant to state, was that it was not major ( huge numbers ) in relation to the total production.

Satisfaction on the snap ring issue seems universally positive. It's the other issue that several ( 11 ? ) owners have complained about, the rpm spikes. This has nothing to do with the snap ring issue. What seems to be angering those 11 owners is that they feel mistreated.

The former owners are being offered multiple options because of the manufacturing defect, and these owners seem universally happy. The latter group wants the same options and here Toyota has not done anything - yet - pending further investigations.

goodegg · June 2006

Why do posts that are anti-something get removed? If all we read was pro, pro, pro then aren't we all just patting ourselves on the back? Doesn't spirited banter have any use here any more? This is a comparo thread.

backy · June 2006

Or maybe you are missing my point. Look at the content and price of the 2007 Sonata GLS with automatic and the $500 PP package that includes most (not all) of the GLS features from 2006, plus the power seat. When you consider the cost of adding mats, fog lamps, and alloys, the price of the 2007 GLS is actually more. You have to pay $20,680 to get the automatic GLS with fog lamps, alloys, and mats. That is a good deal compared to 2006 if you also want a moonroof, but not a good deal if you don't want one.

So depending on the equipment you want on a Sonata, the 2007 may be a better deal or may not be.

Sorry if you are confused about all this. I'm not.

jrock65 · June 2006

Yes, major in the sense that the defect itself major. I didn't say that the majority of the cars had the defect.

Most people affected by the snap ring issue do seem satisfied, but not all are. Especially the people who recently bought a new V6 Camry with the snap ring issue, long after Toyota acknowledged that the problem exists.

As far as the rpm spike issue goes, I've seen the video and it's definitely not normal. In fact, it looks eerily like a problem we used to have in our former Ford (a van), and the whole transmission itself had to be replaced. If 11 people are posting about it, the overall number of people affected must be quite a bit larger. Hopefully, Toyota will deal with the issue soon.

It's unfortunate because I do think that the Camry V6 is the current best car in its class, but I won't be recommending it to anyone until these transmission issues get resolved.

thegraduate · June 2006

Shows that I didn't take French, doesn't it? I couldn't remember how to do the e with the ` over it! A little help?

mfletou1 · June 2006

Interior design. Dash components, audio features, quality of materials, cabin roominess (I'm talking more about feel than numbers, the Camry feels much "airer" than Accord even though I know the numbers are close). Safety features--the stability control system on my new Camry is more sophisticated, airbag components (added knee airbag). No keys--only a fob.

Sonata and Accord are similar, and they're both closer to the last gen Camry than the current one. From my impression, they are both excellent cars.

bobad · June 2006

Shows that I didn't take French, doesn't it? I couldn't remember how to do the e with the ` over it! A little help?

Hold down the "alt" key, and press "0233" on the numeric keypad.

pat · June 2006

Posts that insult people are inappropriate and are what caused the flame wars of a little bit ago. That's what was happening again.

If you don't like a car, tell us why you don't like the car without making sweeping generalizations and insults about people who buy them.

I'm not necessarily talking to you, don't take it that way. But if you or anyone wants to discuss this further, I'll be happy to do so in email.

thegraduate · June 2006

I'm guessing you have to have the numeric keypad, and the strip of numbers at the top of the keys won't work. I'm on a laptop with no keypad

.

I'll get over it.

pat · June 2006

Another way to do it is go to the Character Map and copy it from there. Assuming you're running Windows 2K or higher, it should be in System Tools under Accessories - or something like that.

jrock65 · June 2006

Your point of reference is the Camry Hybrid, which is certainly a special car.

But you made the comment that the Camry is a "generation" ahead in ALL trim levels.

I disagree with you when it comes to the volume LE v. Accord LX and Sonata GLS.

I actually think that the Accord interior is nicer than the Camry, so I disagree with you there. The Sonata has a bigger interior. Aside from the standard knee airbag, I don't see what's special about the Camry LE 4 cyl., especially to the point where it's a "generation" ahead.

lightfootfl · June 2006

Re Renaming
Agree that the renaming of trim levels is wrong, it has to be one of the most obnoxious moves any of the manufacturers do. Obviously they are trying to trick the general buying public into something they thought they were familiar with. I, too, wish they would just leave them all the same, then the confusion factor is greatly reduced. Mistake or trickery, they almost all do it.
van

m1miata · June 2006

$400 key, or FOB? Is that the cost to replace one on the Camry?

bobad · June 2006

I agree, sort of.

I think buyers would be well advised to look at actual options, and not trim level names and badges on the trunk lid. Trim designations are just a marketing tool, and should be ignored when buying.

w9cw · June 2006

I'm certainly not confused Backy, but I'm concerned that others may be.

If I was considering a 2006 Sonata GLS, but decided to wait for a 2007, I wouldn't even consider the 2007 GLS, as it's not the same trim line as the 2006 model - it's the old GL (just renamed). I would buy the SE (the equivalent trim to the 2006 GLS), and in this case, Hyundai has added some value to the middle trim line, including 17" alloys over the 16" alloys.

You should be comparing the content of the 2007 GLS to the 2006 GL. On the other hand, if their is any decontenting going on, I would certainly expect some. Why not, given the increase in the value of the won to the dollar, and the ever decreasing value of the dollar in the world financial markets.

The previous poster makes a good point, forget the trim levels and just look at the options available, and configure your car to what level you desire.

On to a different thread . . .

scape2 · June 2006

I fully agree that competition has led to great offerings in the car market. The Accord/Camry have led this segement for years now. Reliability has gone by the way side as being a factor in buying a vehicle. Anyone who follows the industry knows reliability is way up across the board. (Toyota for some reason has faultered however with its new Camry..??) Anyhoo...Refinement has become the new buzz word..I chose not to buy a Camry/Accord becuase I wanted different.
Fusion was my choice and after owning it now for just over a month, I still enjoy driving this vehicle. No problems, no squeaks or rattles. http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Auto_News/Porsche_Tops_APEAL_Study.S17- 5.A10587.html take a look... :shades:

backy · June 2006

One reason Hyundai changed the trim levels on the 2007 Sonata is I think to align them with their other 2007 vehicles. For example:

Accent: GS (base hatch), GLS, SE
Azera: SE, Limited
Elantra: GLS, SE, Limited
Santa Fe: GLS, SE, Limited
Entourage: GLS, SE, Limited
Sonata: GLS, SE, Limited

So there is logic behind the change. While there is short-term pain, in the long run there will be more consistency across Hyundai's lineup.

jrock65 · June 2006

"Accent: GS (base hatch), GLS, SE
Azera: SE, Limited
Elantra: GLS, SE, Limited
Santa Fe: GLS, SE, Limited
Entourage: GLS, SE, Limited
Sonata: GLS, SE, Limited"

I like that. Just easier for the consumer to compare what's what. All brands should institute a similarly consistant trim designation for all their cars.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe leather is standard on all Limited models, including the 2007 Elantra?

backy · June 2006

I don't recall, but that would be nice and consistent, wouldn't it: L(imited) is for Leather.

mfletou1 · June 2006

Well, I'm talking more about the cabin feel and the controls (the way the cockpit is laid out), etc, which isn't specific to a particular trim level. The Camry has a more efficient, spacious feel to it. I noticed it most when I went back to the Accord from the Camry...the Accord suddenly felt kind of cramped.

Of course, outside style is totally subjective, but in my subjective opinion, the new Camry is significantly fresher looking than the other midsize sedans. I've been driving it since Tuesday morning and its gotten quite a bit of attention--of course, part of that is probably the Barcelona Red paint. I like the Accord styling, but it looks dated next to a Camry. The Sonata to me is sort of a hodge podge--kind of pudgy, nice features like the lamps but not as aggressive looking.

But that's just my opinion. The automotive journalists seem to agree, for whatever that's worth.

The thing I wanted to point out is that I think its way overstating the case to say that the new Camry has had reliability problems. There were some production problems with a couple HUNDRED V6 Camry's. We are talking about one of the highest volume cars in America. I'm not aware of anything else significant that is popping up.

jrock65 · June 2006

I guess we'll just have to disagree on the interior. I feel that the the Camry interior, while certainly nice, isn't any better in feel or ergonomics than the Accord interior.

For what it's worth, the new August issue of Consumer Reports came out, and they rated the Accord EX V6 (89 points) higher than the Camry XLE V6 (87 points).

-----------------------

There seem to be two issues with the V6 Camry transmission:

1) Snap ring defect: Toyota recently said that the original estimate of 160 is an underestimate, and did not provide another specific figure.

2) RPM spike issue: Toyota has not publicly acknowledged that this is a problem. We do not know how many cars are/will be affected.

I'm sure that the problematic vehicles are a minority, but I just wouldn't be comfortable with getting a V6 Camry right now until these issues get resolved.

kdhspyder · June 2006

All the engine immobilizer vehicles have these expensive systems now. The Corolla's is $275-300 per key. In some of the new ones the fob and key are combined, new Camry, RAV, Lexus', etc.

DO NOT lose both master keys!!!!!

m1miata · June 2006

HUNDREDS for KEYS....
I think I would just avoid the cars. Ridiculous. $1 for a key was plenty. I have one now with an immobilizer chip, and I think it is like $30 key. Could be wrong. Anything over a $1 is high, and over $100 something I don't care to pay for and will avoid that car. What else on the car is overpriced? Techno cars and not so friendly to the wallet. My 98 Corolla took a $1 key. It was a great car for the seven years owned. Roll up windows, and manual door locks. No failures at all, and you did not need a key to roll down the windows. Passengers appreciate that roll down windows when they left in the car while you go shopping.

Now let's see, to buy three Camry keys for $400 each is $1,200. I bought a used Mustang 289V8 back around 1970 for about $1,100. Now the same money buys three keys. Well I guess you can still buy a ride for $1,100, but it would be the economy riding mower, and you look a bit silly taking it downtown.
-Loren

autoboy16 · June 2006

This post is for every1 who compares the 2006 accord Lx 4cyl to something.

Compare the accord Lx se. It offers options going into the Ex pricing area for a little more than the price of a standard Lx

Example: Whoever compared the camry LE to an accord Lx, use the accord Lx Se as it fits better. I personally would compare the camry le to the accord Ex w/o leather for the standard moonroof among other things.

Thanks!!
cj

ps
Its been

in this forum

tinatina · June 2006

I can't believe that the 4 year old Accord beat the new Camry, which is at "least one generation ahead of the competition," according to wisdom of CR. This must have been the mother of all rematches from the Edmunds test in which the Camry barely edged the Accord.

Anyway, I will read that article once I have my mits on it. Thanks, for the info. I want to see a test of the 4 bangers.

Autoboy16, I would not automaticaly compare the Accord SE to the Camry LE. The Camry LE and the LX Accord are the ones to compare IMO. However, if the Camry LE has alloy wheels and a c/d changer, then you may want to compare it to the Accord SE. The early 2006 Accord brochure referred to the SE as the "LX-SE". Anyway, just my thoughts.

autoboy16 · June 2006

Accord Se stands for special edition so IMO is valid. Its sort of similar to honda calling DX VP for 2006

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