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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Comments
Ahh, spoken like a true non-auto-enthusiast stockholder.
First of all, the reason why the Speed6 doesn't sell "well" is due to the Mazda-imposed limit of importing 5000 cars/year, all with manual transmissions, which dealers then marked up when they first went on sale, three different reasons actually. Secondly, as stated before, it's a DRIVERS car, not a family blah-mobile. It may be a narrower market, but it pulls more people into showrooms, to at least look, than the vanilla models.
A Fusion SVT wouldn't be an image car, but a sport sedan for a driver that needs FOUR doors (unlike the Mustang), but still wants a little fun behind the wheel. A 3.5L V6 with 6-speed manual or manumatic, firmer suspension, and better handling and braking would be great, following in the TRUE tradition of the Maxima (which is now saddled with only a CVT for '07, WITHOUT a manual option).
Ford should model their Fusion lineup after Camry, Accord or even the Altima...
That's all Ford needs, another CamCord poser. There's enough of them around already. Why do you think the Taurus was killed off in the first place?
Hopefully Ford learned something from their Taurus re-model tragedy 10 years ago.
Apparently they didn't, considering the Fusion/Milan has a unique style, and is selling well.
Well, don't get me wrong, I think the speed6 is perfectly fine under Mazda lineup but just don't think Ford should take the same route.
As for the Fusion, they should put the 3.5 on all V6 models. Give the SE a firmer suspension and a stick then they could call it a day. Right now Ford doesn't need to make ONE car to get a few people excited, they need a whole lineup of cars to make MANY people excited. I think with the current 4 banger and a powerful new V6, Fusion could become a legitimate Camcord fighter.
As to satisfy those so called enthusiasts, Ford should be concentrating on turning Lincoln/Mercury around and make them the Acura fighter. Milan has the potential, it just needs a brand new sheetmetal and interior plus the 3.5 (like how Acura dresses up the TL from Accord). A RWD entry level performance sedan would be welcome as well to go head to head with the 3er/G/IS. If Ford can do that I am pretty sure 99% of the so called enthusiasts out there should be satisfied.
That's all Ford needs, another CamCord poser.
In order to beat the best, one needs to be the best. Let's face it, as for right now, Comcords are still the benchmark.
Apparently they didn't, considering the Fusion/Milan has a unique style, and is selling well.
I really don't think the Fusion has a unique style. Yes, it has an aggressive front, but now even the new Camry has some pretty non-conservative front as well. As for the huge butt, Honda has been there, done that before with the 94-97 Accord so it's nothing new as well. The euro tail light is nothing new either since the Altima started that almost 5 years ago. As for the interior, I can say that Fusion has one of the plainest if not the plainest in this class. Even the Camry outdid Fusion this time around. So I think Ford did learned something from their Taurus re-model tragic and that's why the Fusion is selling relatively well.
While I was there, I found a Mazdaspeed6 article.....
http://www.caranddriver.com/previews/10398/mazdaspeed-6.html
* Nice, fat, good-looking wheels.
* Looks better in person than in pictures. I particularly like the rear. The front is too high/boxy for my taste and IMO takes away from the otherwise sleek look of the car.
* Dash looked amazingly like that of a Sonata (with faux carbon-fiber trim, not woodgrain trim), except stereo was below the air vents. Overall look pretty good, but not exceptional (e.g., chrome rings around gauges looked cheap--why do automakers do that??).
* Fabric was a light grey mutli-tone tweed, looked durable but not especially rich.
* Metal body panels, not the trademark Saturn plastic. Good in that the panel fits were decent, bad in that the plastic panels shrug off dings and don't rust. The Saturn rep said that within two years, all Saturns would have metal panels.
Visually a huge improvement over the LS, and reasonably priced (near $20k for a V6). If it rides and drives competitively, it could be a big hit for the General.
Pat, you posted this on August 22nd. Is the date wrong because it would already be past the deadline?
Heck No! I'd rather be a boy in the Boston, NYC, and CT traffic I drive through often. I live half way between Boston and NYC so you can imagine that I am visiting those cities very oftan. Traffic is murder. I would never own a stick. When I was young, my brother had a 5.0 Muctang that was a stick. We loved driving that car. He now drives a Honda Accord 4cyl automatic. Why? Simple, he lives in Washington DC. I love my manu-matic in my Mazda6. Best of both worlds and loads of fun. It is on the high list of features I want in my next car. It gives the Passat a slight advantage over the Fusion on my short list of potential next vehicles to buy. I also have to look at the Saturn Aura XE. I saw it in person at the NYC autoshow (the traffic that day almost caused me to get out and walk down the West Side highway). The styling didn't jump out at me when I saw it but I am definitely going to give it a look. Again, the lack of manu-shift gives the Passat an extra leg on it but the Aura has its advantages as well. I want my next car to be real slick. The Passat key, is a good example of a detail that adds to the car in my book.
Yesterday I copied and pasted exactly what I was asked to copy and paste, and that was the result (obviously I didn't know what day it was when I did that!).
After seeing your message, I went back to the source of what I copied and pasted and, lo, it has been changed to:
A large local newspaper is looking to interview 18-25 year olds on what type of car they are looking to purchase. Please send an e-mail to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Thursday, August 24, 2006 by 2:30 PM PT/5:30 PM ET containing your daytime contact information. (emphasis mine)
Thanks for keeping better track of the calendar than I seem to be able to manage!!
Okay, here are the numbers:
Model July June May
Camry 41892 41427 43112
Accord 38043 32587 36967
Fusion 13612 13691 14940
Malibu 17662 15443 12881
Impala 26480 30716 23702
Altima 17669 14174 21981
Sonata 14039 11739 17035
G6 17516 17074 11534
Source: Autonews datacenter
As one can see, Accord and Camry were never off the chart but have always been consistant on the top. Based on these numbers I really can't tell there is any other model that has a serious chance to end Accord/Camry's success within the next couple years.
Ford did a step in the right direction to offer something, now you Accord/Camry folks listen.. DIFFERENT, affordable and offer real value.
Yes, I think Ford did something different with the Fusion...DIFFERENT FROM THEIR OWN TAURUS DISASTER THAT IS. Like I said in my previous post, Fusion is nothing new compare to the other car in this segment. IMO, Ford decided to join the mainstream with its Fusion and go head to head with the Camcords. Just look at the interior design, it's night and day from the 96' Taurus. You can spin it anyway you like but when it's coming down to the truth, Fusion is just Ford's version of the popular Camcords, a decent one too as I might add.
As far as a manual, other than the pain of shifting all the time in heavy traffic, the cost of replacing a clutch is pretty high (and maybe I am unco-ordinated so I wear them out faster), but the real problem is that they are hard to sell used around here- it is a showstopper for many people looking at used cars, so you have to be prepared for that too.
So now someone can reply regarding the General's fleet sales...
Yes, as matter of fact I think Malibu/G6/Aura will top Accord eventually, as might the Fusion/Milan/MKZ(?). While we are at it why don't we add TL's sale to Accord and ES350's to Camry as well?
As for the Fusion/Milan/MKZ overtaking the Accord, the problem there may be that production is gated at around 300,000 units a year based on current plant capacity, at least that is what I remember reading. So toppling the Accord would require more production capacity. It's possible though; when the Taurus/Sable are retired later this year, Ford has to do something to make up for the sales volume of those cars.
Camry 41892 41427 43112
Accord 38043 32587 36967
Fusion 13612 13691 14940
Malibu 17662 15443 12881
Impala 26480 30716 23702
Altima 17669 14174 21981
Sonata 14039 11739 17035
G6 17516 17074 11534
Mazda6 6192 5323 7210
Just a thought. At very least, you'll save a lot of money on the current models if you wait until they are almost gone.
The new Altima looks nice, but I am concerned about the CVT which is new for 2007. The Mazda6 is cute and priced right and the Honda Accord Special Edition is certainly a safe investment, if a little commonplace around here. All of those (in 4 cylinder version) can be had for under $23K nicely equipped.
But there is something to be said for not getting a new design in its first year. Even reliable brands like Honda and Toyota have had their problems with first-year models (see 2003 Accord, 2006 Civic, 2007 Camry for example).
The Fusion is a fine effort, but saying its different is a misnomer. Sure its different, but its the same formula. And the Zephyr/MZK are aimed at a different market than the Fusion---like the ES and TL.
Here's my question: If the Sonata is as good as Camry and Accord (I don't think it is, but for the sake of argument), AND its much cheaper--why can't the move more units? And that's not even accounting for fleet.
Just for the record, I think the Sonata is as good as the the rest of of the midsizers, including, of course, the Camry and the Accord. It's a fine effort from Hyundai, now the company needs to continue rolling as the way it has, to win over more consumers as they are warmed up to the brand. Of course, as we all know, this won't happen overnight and will take some time, especially given the history it had.
It took Camry and Accord 3 to even 4 generations of excellent products to establish as the benchmark of the class. I am not going to argue that the current Sonata is a decent alternative but since this is the first generation that Hyundai has success with the model (okay, second if you count the previous generation) I am still hesitate to put Sonata as equal to the Camcords. Same applied to the Fusion.
Here's an article I found that does a good job explaining the CVT used in the Murano. Notice that it's from April 2003:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/030402.htm
And here is some background on Nissan's history with CVTs and plans for the near future:
http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2005/_STORY/050228-01.html
Noticed the only Mitsubishi dealer which is close by, say 18 miles away, has a very small service dept. and has changed hands at least once in a couple years now. The next dealership is 135 miles or more away. The in town one is gone, as is another one 30 miles away. They dropped like flies about a couple years ago.
Brand/model loyalty is one big reason. People have been buying Camcords for years, and aren't going to change what's been working for them.
Toyota could build the world's best fullsize truck with the next Tundra, but sales would still be less than a quarter of F series sales. Brand/model loyalty is a powerful thing, and a very coveted thing.
The car is sold as a value. It may be a value. I would do more research before declaring it another Accord or Camry, only less expensive. Maybe it is one of those just close enough, or better yet, is perfect for me type of cars. When you get right down to it, only the buyer needs to be satisfied. We can talk looks, fit and finish, engines and a whole lotta tech stuff, but it all boils down to if I pay $17K and bought this car, in this case the Sonata, was it MY best choice to fit what I need, and/or want. Personally, I am keeping an eye on reports of less gas mileage than stickered on the window, and reports of noises and such. My guess is that so far, though not perfect, it still is a good one to at the very least consider when shopping, if you like it. I would not buy a car which had no appeal to me, just because it is good work horse, unless just a commuter car, or something.
-Loren
Silly statement..
80,000+ buyers amonth choose the Camry and Accords. These are all media types?
If Ford makes it through this year....
The Accord and Camry are limited by production capacity. Nevertheless the Camry will only set a new record of 450,000 units this year - until the Subie plant comes on stream next year when its sales will jump to over 500,000 units annually. Yours is wishful thinking but looking at the monthly stats as noted above the two just keep steamrolling every other make.
There are alot of good models out there but here is one incontrovertible fact. None of the other models will be able to pass either the Camry or the Accord for at least 5 years - if ever. And the reason........production capacity.
You can continue to hope, but don't bet on any other taking the top slot ( except the Corolla ) for the foreseeable future. Next year you can expect 550,000 Camry's when the Subie line goes on stream; i.e. 20% increase in one year.
Some are speculating that Nissan and GM would join hands soon - if that happens, I would not consider Altima anymore. I don't want to pay for GM engineering and quality (I have burned my hands once and I am very cautious now).
Rome crumbled and died tho.
Hyundai has improved their vehicles, but not their perception with American consumers yet. The majority of consumers buy with their hearts and minds, and Hyundai has a long way to go to make these people feel comfortable about buying their vehicles.
The pipe smoker with the newspaper under his arm walking onto the lot may buy the Hyundai because of all the 'stats', but a car is more than a bundle of stats.
Look at BMW. Their cars are rarely the best in any one category but their total package is widely accepted.
BMW has the unique driving dynamics which other manufactures find hard to replicate (look at Lexus). What does Hyundai have to make them stand out in the pack besides value?
Camry - rock solid reliability, class leading V6 engine, class leading technology package.
Accord - rock solid reliability, good balance between comfort and driving dynamics, class leading interior refinement, one of the best 4 bangers in the class.
Not trying to bash Hyundai here but so far I find Sonata to be good a almost every characteristics but hardly great at any. To me, in order to become the benchmark like Camcords, the Sonata needs to become the class leader at at least one area.
For purposes of this discussion, here are some ways in which Hyundai stands out:
* Roomiest interior in the class (actually in the EPA "large car" class)
* Best brakes (based on multiple comparos)
* Only car in its class with standard ABS, traction control, electronic stability control, and active front head restraints on ALL trim lines.
* Best warranty in its class (tied with Kia and Mitsubishi)
* Quietest ride in its class (based on multiple comparos)
By my count, that's more than one area.
"Camry/Accord V6's better" how? by .6 -.8 seconds 0-60 depending on what review you want to believe? The 3.0 Duratec equipped with VVT is a proven engine. It has been around now for almost 10 years and has proven to be a longterm reliable engine. What do you mean??
Quality fit and finish in the Fusion/Milan have one awards for fit/finish and quality. Fusion/Milan are on par with the Camry/Accord. Its just that it has been so beaten into your head by the media you can't see it..
Wasn't the same said about Ford/GM in the late 80's. Noway is Honda/Toyota ever going to be #1 in sales of cars.. Hmmmm...Look where we are now..
I just find it awfully funny how some are so closed minded and one dimensional about Honda/Toyota. Who is to say Hyundia won't take the lead in 5-10 years? Or even Ford or GM? Nissan?
Not even going to start with the 3.0 Duratec. Ford, put the 3.5 V6 in there and you'll have a winner. I also disagree with Fusion's interior to be on par with Camcord's. Is it a nice interior? Yes. The best in class? NO. To me, Camry's interior is nothing to write home about (although it's light years ahead of last generation's) and same as the Fusion's. But Toyota used better quality plastics in the Camry than Ford does in Fusion (less hard plastic, which is really important). Accord's interior is just hands down the best. Better ergonomics, better material and better looking.
Nobody's saying that Hyundai won't take the lead in 5-10 years but the thing is...they are not in the lead yet. So before they do, we can all stop pretending like they already did. When the time comes, all the so called Camcords loyalist will just shut up and accept the fact, trust me.
I'd say it needs to be in more than one area, unless that one area is the one that an Accord owns - the overall feeling that you bought one damn good machine. Hyundai is trying to give their first born to get that.
Yet, it was the best seller year after year. If it's a Camry, people will buy them.
I find it funny how many folks get so worked up over the hope that the company that makes their preferred car will sell more than some other brand. If anything, I am glad that not so many want to buy my favorite (Mazda6). I'd rather not see someone else driving the same car every 30 seconds.