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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Comments
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0c6927/1568
It's more than the alleged snaprings problem. Avalon, Lexus, Camry have reports of problems with shift hesitation, flares, and so on.
>all but one of them had rotor issues
Strange. You must be hard on brakes. I've had nothing but maintenance on my LeSabres, Centurys before them...
>One mechanic told me they might as well just schedule the first appointment for a rotor resurface when you buy the car. I've had 5 GM cars since 1997, all but one of them had rotor issues. (And
First hint you may have a mechanic who likes to charge for brake work. For a long time replacement has been the brake maintenance step especially if you have rotors that have runout. Resurfacing doesn't cure it. You mechanic may just be behind the times a decade of fifteen years. Good luck. EOD
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2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Good question.
I felt the same way when I was 19 as I do now (I'm 30), looks are VERY important in my car, even if I'm looking at a mid-size "family sedan".
That's one of the (many) reasons why I picked my Mazda6 over everything else, along with great handling, brakes, steering, and sporty character of the car. Interior space may be lacking compared to everyone else, but I don't live in the back seat, and I have passengers in the back quite often (notably co-workers, clients, and friends) and NOBODY has complained about any lack of room, even behind my seat, which is as far back as possible.
Reliability? Face it, buying ANY car is a risk, even a Honda or Toyota. Having said that, after 2 years and 36K miles, I've only had a faulty gas cap (replaced under warranty). It hasn't left me stranded or late for anything.
Resale? Please... A car is a terrible investment, no matter how you look at it. Buying a Toyota or Honda isn't worth the price premium to get a few extra $$$ back at trade-in.
AFAIC, there are excellent choices, both foreign and (gasp!) domestic, that fit the needs of all mid-size sedan buyers. That's the best part.
I agree 100% with thegraduate. Good job, I applaude your rational thinking. As a postscript, looks are important, but I wouldn't not buy a car because I didn't like the looks. (Aztec excepted)
High quality headliner...see VW, for example.
I'm not sure what you are doing in your car that you get the headliner dirty in the first place, but whatever...
-Fusion out; 4-cyl doesn't match economy of the other models (24/34 vs something like 24/31...I drive hwy a lot)
On the power side, I'd not give too much weight to peak HP numbers. I would drive to see if the power is adequate for me and also look at acceleration numbers.
On gas mileage, assuming EPA numbers are accurate, even if real gas mileage is 3 mpg difference...this amounts to about $80 per 10,000 miles. Not enough to be a factor for myself.
I think almost all cars are reasonably safe and reasonably reliable. Because of this other factors, such as looks) become more significant in choosing a car, just because the differences are greater, IMO.
If all cars are reasonably safe and reliable, but only a few cars look good to me...then the looks are going to be the thing that matters.
Wanting to buy a car that looks nice (in addition to meeting other criteria) is not about my image, it just about wanting to like the appearance of something I am going to spend $20,000 on and see every day for the next 10 years+.
I agree 100% with thegraduate. Good job, I applaude your rational thinking. As a postscript, looks are important, but I wouldn't not buy a car because I didn't like the looks. (Aztec excepted)
Haha, thanks... I'm a pretty rational person (I save as much as I spend here lately; gotta have $ to move out of the house!), so economy was important for the finance aspect of it. I currently have the car I got when I was 15 (grandmother's old 1996 - now has 165,000mi)...so I hope to keep my new car as long. The longer I keep a car, the more time I have to be saving for the next one (meaning less financed!).
I'm 6'4", so I wanted the room of a midsize. I like to drive, so when double-dating and road-tripping, we take my car, meaning I wanted 4-doors.
Do I think the coupes look a lot better than the 4-door models? Heck yes; but it wasn't worth giving up the utility of a 4-door to me.
The only thing I'd change about my car now that i have it? Make Stability Control available on 4-cyl Accords!
(You mention the Aztec; I don't think I'd take an Element either, although it is pretty practical!)
Driving any one of these sedans isn't going to make much of a "statement" so style didn't matter that much.
If I was shopping for a convertible it would be an entirely different story though!
I do remember that I discovred our then new 02 malibu (your Alero is essentially the same car) had unevenly worn rotor on one side. It didn't shake or anything when braking but I could feel the grooves on the rotor with my fingers. Had them surfaced but could still feel the grooves. Fortunately the brakes never gave us any trouble the entire time we owned it althought they had been fairly weak from day one in the sense that it required some force to apply them.
Other than that it was overall a very reliable and comfortable car in the 3+ years and 30K+ miles.
I see that you had a 96' Accord. That's a pretty decent car, is it an EX or LX? I recently just handed down my 97' Accord LX to my sister, it has 110,000 miles on it. Although now I am driving a better car I still missed my old ride sometimes. I think even though the 94-97 Accord is smaller than the later models, the fit and finish and interior material quality are far superior.
If you had a problem rotor you would feel it when braking. The concentric grooves are from normal brake wear. If you had them resurfaced and the grooves were still there they didn't do the job right. I'm glad you say the brakes never gave you any trouble: "the brakes never gave us any trouble the "
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The build quality is excellent, even inside after years of use, although I wouldn't call it abused.
You can check it out at my carspace page http://www.carspace.com/thegraduate
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Bye the way, 02 Protege has been very nice. It has now 38000 miles on it. Still on original tires and battery. It needed 3 repairs in 4 and 1/2 years: one engine emission valve repair, one power door lock (actuator) repair, front brake repair (just the shoes, not rotor). Almost nothing compared to the terrible 99 Blazer that I traded in for a CR-V. I will feel very guilty trading this Protege in next year for an Accord/ Altima/ Mazda6 :P
I don't blame you for fixing it on your Protege...
I've had a few other repairs on my 96 Accord in 10.5 years, including:
1.)Speedometer failure 111,500 miles- Honda didn't charge labor b/c its such a freaky thing (I don't know the cost, my grandmother had the car at the time)
2.)Brake Master Cylinder leak 155,000 miles- $310
3.)Main Cooling (radiator) fan motor ~130,000 miles- $300
4.)Pass. Rear Pwr Door Lock Actuator- ~$200 (Chose not to repair)
All of this plus regular maintenance, and a few bulbs replaced here and there. Not perfect, but I'd say its well below the average cost of repairs on a ten year old car with such high mileage.
I am not disagreeing with you but just for the record, I never said Jetta is a midsize...
As for the Azera, photos (like below) do not do justice. I just saw one today, and it looked great!!
-Cj
But anywy, I think the short term reliability is ok on these things, its the mid-to long term I question. Our other car is an '04 Malibu Maxx...so far, I wouldn't say anything MAJOR has happened except for the brakes. It has had three sets of rotors and on top of that they have been resurfaced 4 times in 21k. I didn't pay a dime for any of that at least and this last replacement seems to have worked a little better. Basically I was told by the Chevrolet Service Advisor that we drive in an extreme environment in terms of traffic (metro DC) and that they brakes simply weren't decided to handle that and get too hot day in and day out. My wife and I moved a few months ago and now carpool in the Camry and so the Maxx no longer has the commute, and presto, the brakes seem ok. (Of course its driven a lot less). The interior quality is getting shoddy (pieces are just breaking here and there) but mechnically it seems fine.
My '01 Alero brakes were a mess. A couple of months after I got it, the rear window came loose. It went into a dealer for almost two weeks for a replacement, and fitting and all of that. They had a hard time because the sealants were messed up. It was never the same after that and prompted me to trade it for the Intrigue--the deal was really favorable.
I finally broke the GM cycle...
Your rambling rant said nothing about Hyundai's weakness in the style (or lack of) department.
But maybe the Azera's unibrow tailights appeal to you.
The fifth generation Honda Accord(1994-1997) is my personal favorite. They weren't too big, yet they weren't too small. These cars had excellent inital build quality, and the ergonomics of the interior components made good, basic sense. During my daily commute, I see more of these cars on the road than any other make/model of vehicle; barr none. There's not even a close second in this area. Having a very common car really, really bothers some folks, but what it tells me is that Honda obviously did a whole lot right with the design and manufacturing of this generation of Accords. I'd like to be able to purchase a brand new Accord today just like a 1997 LX/EX either one. As long as it had the options that I desire, I'd just as soon have it as any other new mid-size sedan that is available today. I have a 1998 Accord EX that I use to commute back and forth to work in, but I'd really rather have the previous generation. When I purchased my 1998 Accord, it was pretty tough to find a previous generation one around here. People were hanging on to them for obvious reasons. My '98 Accord has proven to be a really good car thus far. It has only required routine maintenance; including the replacement of wear items such as brake pads, wiper blades, etc. The interior has held up exceptionally well for a vehicle in its price range.
Regarding some recent headliner-related comments in this forum, I will say that my wife's 2001 Civic LX headliner has to be one of the worst that I have ever seen. Cheap mousehair-like fabric over some type of material that feels like a combination of cardboard and styrofoam.
It's peeling away at the area near the top edge of the rear window. Other than this issue, her car's interior has also held up really well for having a 130,000 miles on it. Still looks really nice and clean.
Ron M.
Did I say I don't care about looks?
My car doesn't have to be drop-dead gorgeous, but it must not be ugly or offensive either. If a car is perfect in every way except it was butt-ugly, I probably wouldn't buy it... unless it was dirt cheap. Maybe not even then. I am simply saying that I do not let a car inside my head. I've driven some very cool and expensive cars, but never felt any different while driving them. Same with ugly cars. I feel no different driving them. I just wouldn't like to walk out in my garage and see an ugly vehicle. There are too many handsome ones available to ever do that.
Cars that the general populace considers ugly (as opposed to retro) generally have undesirable form and function anyway. There are very few really ugly cars out there although the Aztec comes to mind. But for the most part, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder holds with car styling. The only thing two people every agree on when discussing car styling is to agree to disagree.
Very well said!!
That's a given. 95% of these posts are opinions, even when some car rag says car A 'beats' car B. I think there's a very fine line separating most cars anyway, which is why I think styling plays a big part of one's buying decision. And I just don't think Hyundais are good looking vehicles.
On that note, I can't wait to see the 08 Accord. I'm sure it'll be a lot more pleasing to the eye than the current, tired version.
I think the line is much thicker, when comparing certain cars. Styling plays a very small part in my buying decision now. Once I decided on a certain car over another, because I thought it looked much better. The car didn't seem to look as good standing on the side of the road stranded though. Buy a car based on looks, if you plan on doing more looking, than driving.
I wouldn't get my hopes up, that the 08 Accord will be very stylish. Honda seems to save most of it's stylish designs for the Acura line. I think the current Accord looks appealing, in darker colors. The subtle lines show more on dark colors. This is all "my own opinion", as we say.
It's always good to hope. The new Civic is a vast improvement over the last one in the styling department (IMO of course), so why not have some hope for the new Accord.
It's not that the Acura line had some lookers before the new TL came out. It seems like Honda is going in a new, less conservative direction lately. We won't talk about the Ridgeline though.
Yea, It's a no brainer to get a $16K Accord over a Civic. With the Accord approaching lame duck status and the Civic still a fresh design, you'll see some strange transaction prices between these cars.
Well, when you're talking about German quality you're obviously not talking about quality in terms of reliability.
But in addition to the driving experience, the built quality is excellent. And as you probably know from the Audis you driven, the interior design, fit/finish and attention to detail are awesome.
Then look into a Jetta 2.0t w/DSG. Take it easy on the options any you'll be well under $30k. I think the Jetta 2.0t has a broader appeal then a GLI anyway.
Having owned Accords from that generation (actually 2 of them) and the current generation I would have to say just the opposite is true. Perhaps pleasant memories are overtaking any kind of rational thought. The fit and finish and material quality of the current Accord is well beyond ANY Honda/Acura product of that era.
Original loan : $27,000
Payoff : $24,000
ACV : $13,000
2006 G6 V6, w/8700 mi, S/R, 6 Disc, prolly $1000 or so of rebatables in the P/O Amt.
Current TMV on a new 2006 model is just under $24000 plus Taxes, etc so $26-27K sounds right including GAP and Road Hazard Protection.
'Clean' condition is $13000 - $14000 on trade in, average is about $13000.
Love your G6, you'll have it for a while.
I would recommend that the owner of the G6 either sell his vehicle himself or visit another dealer - he's being taken to the cleaners!