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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    When I see the Autozone commercial where they tell you to change your belts every two years, I have to laugh (it all depends on what brand of vehicle you have) Honda belts and hoses last much longer.

    I don't know about GM, but I have not had any problem with Ford belts and hoses. I've replaced serpetine belts at maybe 60K mi, because these are relatively cheap to replace, I think they could go longer. Timing belts have gone 100K and 10 years, though.

    My biggest issue with Ford has been gaskets :lemon: on their V6 engines...and I would not even mind that so much, if not for the huge labor cost to replace them. The Ford interiors and bodies have held up very well for me.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    I checked with Edmunds and you were right about the Fusion having power accessories and cruise. I was confusing the Fusion with the Focus.

    But you were wrong about the Accord VP not having these features. My Accord VP has all power accessories and AC and cruise and remote entry, plus side and curtain airbags and ABS. On the Fusion 06 model the airbags and ABS are both options costing $518 each.

    I noticed Ford has a $2K rebate on the 06 Fusion now, making it a very good buy. After adding the airbags and ABS the Fusion has an invoice of $17975 (carsdirect.com), after rebate, $15975, and dealers will most likely accept $500 below invoice, so that makes out to be $15475, which is about $825 cheaper than my Accord VP. Had this price structure been available, I might've bought the Fusion. I recall at the time when I was looking, the rebate was $1500.
  • meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    You're better off with a Honda.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    I haven't replaced a one on the last 5 cars I've owned, all GMs, dating back to 1987 model. Did you do something to the vehicle?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dlangdlang Member Posts: 59
    image
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    What was your mpg in an Accord with a similar engine and over the same conditions and routes?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Honda really needs to update their web site then, to let people know the Accord VP has power mirrors. The web site says the mirrors are manual.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    The Accord VP does NOT have power mirrors, only power windows, locks, remote trunk release and remote entry.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I don't think it has remote trunk release, actually. Also does not have height adjustable seats, 4 wheel disc brakes, and intermittent wipers are not variable.

    I am not big on audio systems, but two speakers??? C'mon, you have to be kidding.

    On the plus side, imo, it does not have chrome trim around windows.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    It DOES have remote trunk release. Trust me, I own one of these ;) And yes, it does have height adjustable seats although manual. No 4 wheel disk brakes, but it's not a big deal to me. The brakes feel more than adequate. You're right about the wipers not being variable. Haven't used them yet but will find out for sure (Seattle!) Sound quality wise, it could be better but the two speakers are adequate with me. Nowadays, people care more about the quality of the sound than the quality of the music! (not being judgmental towards anyone, just an observation).

    I can see why some folks might get turned off by the lack of stuff like auto mirros, but to me it's not worth the extra $2k to get the LX model which has these. Seriously, when was the last time you adjusted the mirrors? The stuff I DO care though, like the side and curtain airbags, ABS, auto window and locks, and fuel economy, this car does deliver.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    "...your fusion will probably leave you stranded...

    Do you really believe this? I really would like to know if this is the way Honda/Toyota fans think


    No, this is not the way Honda/Toyota fans think. That's a blanket statement, and an ignorant one to boot.

    I agree with elroy when he says he feels like the cars "aged" faster ten years ago than a Toyota of ten years ago, but I certainly don't think any modern Ford/Chevy/Hyundai will leave you stranded in the first 7 years of ownership... Of course with ANY car company there will be anomolies and instances of car trouble from near-new (look at the 160 transmission failures early on in the new Camry for example)... no carmaker is perfect, and I feel like any of the cars in this forum would get you 100,000 miles without leaving you stranded from mechanical failure.

    THAT'S an opinion from a member of a three-Honda family (that has had 15 others since the early 80s!)

    I haven't been brainwashed by media (i STILL don't hear much in the media about any of these cars, so I struggle to see how one can be brainwashed). I hear more about the financial struggles of the domestics than I do of their product line.

    I have learned to be a repeat buyer of something that works well for me. I have an 11 year old Accord with 166,000 miles and has cost just over $600 in repairs (2 repairs in all) in its lifetime. THAT is what made me a repeat buyer of Honda. Just like your good experiences with Ranger, Escape, etc... led you back to Ford every time. Would a Contour from 1996 be just as reliable as my 1996 Accord? I don't know. All I do know is that my trust in Honda's quality has been backed up by something the media can't teach me; PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, just like elroy's with his 92 Accord and 140,000 miles.

    It's not a superiority thing; it's a matter of "if what I'm doing works, don't fix it."
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yeah, I'm convinced (sarcasm). C'mon, a one-time reading of fuel economy? You could make a lot better case than that. If you sit still in a Lexus it'll read 0 MPG. I guess that means that Mercury is better than Lexus? No.

    Miles per Gallon is reliant on driving conditions. If I'm stuck in traffic for five hours, I'll have 5 MPG maybe. If I'm cruising at 75 MPH with the A/C off, I sometimes see close to 40 MPG (not a trip computer, this is doing the calculations myself at the pump).
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I can see why some folks might get turned off by the lack of stuff like auto mirros, but to me it's not worth the extra $2k to get the LX model which has these. Seriously, when was the last time you adjusted the mirrors?"

    I want this stuff. In todays day and age, there is no reason for auto mirrors, door locks, windows, and a host of other things, not to be standard on every car. Years ago, A/C was an option. Find one car today, except for maybe the cheapest of the cheap, the doesn't have A/C on the dealers lot.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I want this stuff. In todays day and age, there is no reason for auto mirrors, door locks, windows, and a host of other things, not to be standard on every car. Years ago, A/C was an option. Find one car today, except for maybe the cheapest of the cheap, the doesn't have A/C on the dealers lot.

    Yeah, well, to offer a high-quality sedan with lots of pep, midsize room, 26/34 MPG, and a price under $18k when you deal, they have to cut costs somewhere.

    BTW, Civic DX, for ~$15k has no A/C...Dodge Caliber SE for $14k has no A/C ($1,000 option on Dodge)... I could find more. If you live in Buffalo, NY like one of my friends, you RARELY need A/C (according to him).

    I live in Alabama and DEFINITELY need A/C!
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    It DOES have remote trunk release. Trust me, I own one of these And yes, it does have height adjustable seats although manual.

    Strange, because the 2006 brochure I have indicates no height adjuster and no remote trunk release. :confuse:
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I haven't replaced a one on the last 5 cars I've owned, all GMs, dating back to 1987 model. Did you do something to the vehicle?

    Did I do something to it? Yes, I drove it. Was I not supposed to do that? 5 cars, in 20 years, that's only an average of about 4 years per car. You got rid of them just in time, I'd say. You get tired of GM vehicles too huh (4 years)? They get old fast don't they?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Well you sort of proved my point. Dodge Caliber SE is the cheapest of the cheap. Get any cheaper and we're into Hyundai Accent terrority. Does that have A/C? On the three trim lines, the GS does not for $10, the SE ($13.9) and GLS ($12.5) do.

    I lived upstate, you're right, didn't really need A/C unless you did. And when you did you really did. :)
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    That's why most sales literature or advertising includes this disclaimer: "Specifications subject to change without notice." This allows manufacturers to update the product without having to spend the thousands of dollars for new printing and ad work.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    "...I want this stuff. In todays day and age, there is no reason for auto mirrors, door locks, windows, and a host of other things, not to be standard on every car. .."

    Actually my Accord VP does have all these except for the auto mirrors.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Actually in your haste to try to turn the point and use it against me rather than process the information, you neglected to realize that I might own more than one car at a time, sometimes 3? Huh?

    Let me think. 93 kept for 10 years and 150K miles; no hoses or tubes needed replacing.
    Let me think. 98 kept for almost 9 years; no hoses or tube needed replacing.
    Let me think. 89 Century kept for 9 years; ho hoses or tubes need replacing.

    Do you live in an area with industries with chemical pollutions in the air that deteriorate plastics/rubber? Did you have antifreeze leak or spray onto the hoses? Those may be things that affect longevity or earlier materials.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well you sort of proved my point. Dodge Caliber SE is the cheapest of the cheap. Get any cheaper and we're into Hyundai Accent terrority. Does that have A/C? On the three trim lines, the GS does not for $10, the SE ($13.9) and GLS ($12.5) do.

    Well, I understand what you are saying, but what you ARE paying for with an Accord VP is a VERY smooth engine, a very quiet car, a much larger car than an Accent/Fit/Caliber/Civic; much more comfortable than either of those, etc...

    I see your point though, so I'm not really DISagreeing, just trying to see both sides of the idea.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Do you live in an area with industries with chemical pollutions in the air that deteriorate plastics/rubber?

    If there are pollutants in the air, they dry-rot Chevy hoses, and have no effect on Honda hoses, which are twice as old.

    Did you have antifreeze leak or spray onto the hoses?

    No.

    The simple fact is, the Chevy hoses are made of cheaper material. You can tell just by looking at them.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "That would be me Is this an 07 model or 06? I bet this is a barebone base model. A month ago I could've gotten one for $15K anyway. Once you add side airbags and ABS and the convenience package )auto windows and locks) which cost about $1500, you're essentially $16K. For several hundred bucks more, the Accord is still a better value to me. I do like the Fusion's style a lot though.

    BTW, is this Evergreen Ford that's doing this?

    My bad it is $14,977 not $14,777.. I called the dealer just for fun and was told these have auto windows and ABS, no side air bags and they are 06 models...
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    So what you are saying is, A Ford/GM/Chrysler will never, ever be as good as a Honda/Toyota right? This just can't happen? :confuse:
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    "LOL! inferiority complex? did I say this in some way?"

    I thought you would get a kick out of that. :P
    But that's how you come accross with your Honda rantings.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Accord VP doesn't have 4wheel disc brakes?? Fusion S does....
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    This guy has been whining for weeks about his MPG on his Milan V6. I bet he has never reset the MPG button! And with only 3,800 miles on the vehicle it hasn't even broken in yet. He is in the Milan room and many have told him he can get out of his lease, in the auto industry everything is negotiable. He won't let go!... :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yeah, and he lives in NYC; even more detrimental to his MPGs!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    So what you are saying is, A Ford/GM/Chrysler will never, ever be as good as a Honda/Toyota right? This just can't happen?

    Those are your words, as usual; not his. He simply said he felt that GM and Ford had a long way to go, and that his decision was not influenced by the media. Only YOU said these words: A Ford/GM/Chrysler will never, ever be as good as a Honda/Toyota right?
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "I thought you would get a kick out of that.
    But that's how you come across with your Honda rantings."

    For the record, I have never, ever said Honda builds terrible vehicles. What I am saying is there are alternatives in todays market to both Honda/Toyota. They no longer have the reliability/quality wrapped up in todays auto world. Much of this stems from constantly being beat in the head that nothing comes close to a Honda/Toyota by the media over the last 10 years. Some of it, yes was true back in the 80s'early 90's!. Heck, an acquaintance even bought a Suzuki Verona and that is really not a bad car, for a low cost family sedan. Would I buy one, no, I like more style. Choice is nice.. ;)
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    "I would rank this guy as being pretty business savvy. I'm sure he has done his homework and cost/analysis of owning/leasing whichever vehicles for his business."

    Hmmm.

    The company that does maintenance work for our digital imaging and printing equipment uses Fords for their technicians.

    According to one technician, a Mercedes M would be cheaper to lease than the Fords but it wouldn't look good for a technician to pull up in a Mercedes.

    All I know is that I would personally be much better off leasing a Honda over a Ford sedan in terms of cost. Sorry, what some pizza joint uses for their delivery vehicles doesn't urge me to go out and get that vehicle.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Heck, an acquaintance even bought a Suzuki Verona and that is really not a bad car, for a low cost family sedan.

    Aren't most Suzuki's rebadged Daewoos (Reno, Verona, Forenza)? Just curious. I think Suzuki's models are actually nice looking vehicles, although seemingly old-school as far as technology goes (Verona had a 6-cylinder that makes only 155 hp, Forenza has an Iron-Block 2.0L engine that makes less horsepower than a Civic of 11 years ago, and delivers only 22 MPG (worse than any of the I-4 midsizers, and a couple of the V-6 models!)
  • cajuncyclercajuncycler Member Posts: 172
    "Yeah, well, to offer a high-quality sedan with lots of pep, midsize room, 26/34 MPG, and a price under $18k when you deal, they have to cut costs somewhere."

    Hyundai Sonata V6 GLS 2006 model. Can't find any cost cuts anywhere in my car. Has it all then some. paid $16,495 before TT&L. I'm happy.
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    Different strokes.

    I'd never buy a Hyundai. Negative karma......
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    So what you are saying is, A Ford/GM/Chrysler will never, ever be as good as a Honda/Toyota right? This just can't happen?

    I would not say it can't happen. But do I think it will happen? Probably not.

    It would take a lot of changes. Their whole philosophy (way of thinking), needs to change. The percentage of profits (if there are any), spent on research and development, needs a large increase.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    Yes, you are correct. The majority of Suzukis imported to the USA are rebadged Daewoos, but the Aerio and new SX4 are real Suzukis built in Japan. Other Japanese-built Suzukis are not imported to the USA. Interestingly, a friend of mine who is a grad student here at the University of Illinois told me that more Suzukis are sold in Japan than any other Japanese marque. Is this true? I would find it hard to believe, but he's a very bright young man, and is a gear-head at heart.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    ontop wrote:

    Different strokes.

    I'd never buy a Hyundai. Negative karma......

    Only negative karma for those who: 1). never owned a recent Hyundai product, and 2). are more concerned about perceived status than price, value, and quality - yes, you can have all at the same time. Those who bought a new generation Sonata have done their homework, made the A-B-C comparisons, and chose a Sonata. Yes, Honda and Toyota afficiandoes can play the depreciation card (factual arguement - at this time), but for those who keep a car for a decade or more, depreciation is a rather moot point. And, what a Sonata owner loses on the back end, he/she gains on the front end due to excellent factory/dealer incentives and Hyundai loyalty rebates.
  • tamu2002tamu2002 Member Posts: 758
    You should be happy. The Sonata is a great car, especially at that price! I test drove it and loved the driving dynamics. Happy motoring! :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    We have different ideas of "high-quality." The Sonata doesn't scream cheap, but I feel like the Accord wins on things like interior quality/design/materials.

    Important thing is that buyers of both vehicles are happy with their purchases. Would I buy an Accord VP? Probably not, actually. If I was dead-set on an Accord, I'd either save a little more for an LX model, or look for an end-of-the-year bargain. I'm a frugal guy, and will likely drive my car into the ground, so long-LONG lasting cars are important. I currently have a 1996 daily driver Accord with 166,000 miles on it, as well as an 06 Accord. They get equal mileage monthly (approx 1k a month on each).
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I certainly don't think all domestic brands leave people stranded on the highway. I have owned many GM, Ford, Chrysler products, and have never been left stranded by any of them (dead battery doesn't count).

    Actually, a dead battery does count!!! i had a dodge once that left me stranded due to a dead battery that was relatively new. why did it die? Well, apparently, the car had an electrical short that was draining the battery. Probably had something to do with all of the corroding parts that the Dodge dealer let corrode even though they worked on the car a hundred times and serviced it recently.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Actually, a dead battery does count!!!

    Not if you change the battery, and you're back to normal again.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "All I know is that I would personally be much better off leasing a Honda over a Ford sedan in terms of cost. Sorry, what some pizza joint uses for their delivery vehicles doesn't urge me to go out and get that vehicle."

    You can knock this guy for owning pizza parlors. Seems like he is doing pretty well for himself. Fact is he chose Ford for his fleet of delivery vehicles. I am sure he did his homework over the 20+ years of owning his businesses. Sure goes against the grain of the stigma of all Fords being unrelaible hey? :shades:
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    You can knock this guy for owning pizza parlors.

    Me, knock a pizza proprietor? I like pizza too much to do that.

    I just don't agree with your conclusions. What some business uses for their vehicles is not an endorsement for that vehicle's reliability one way or the other. There are other factors that are involved with such business decisions.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Thats the problem, changing the battery would only be a temporary "back to normal" solution. The next battery would get drained down quickly all the same.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I just don't agree with your conclusions. What some business uses for their vehicles is not an endorsement for that vehicle's reliability one way or the other. There are other factors that are involved with such business decisions.

    I agree with venus here. There is a courier service that is in downtown Birmingham (I pass it daily, and have for awhile now). Many years ago, they bought a fleet (about 18-20 I think) of Civic Hatchbacks (they stopped making those in the late 90s I think)... They still have that fleet - all Purple (they're ugly, but cavernous and cheap on gas). They are now going on ten years old, and have countless miles, but they still use the same cars. Sure goes against the idea that Hondas are too expensive, right?

    Point is, that one specific incident does not prove anything, just like I could find an instance where a new Ford or Honda had a terrible problem (it wouldn't be hard to do for any company). One terrible problem in one car does not a bad car company make; in the same respect, one company having a fleet of Fords and another having a fleet of Hondas proves NOTHING.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Some may call it "childish" but it happens. To get on the freeway I use there is a long on ramp that merges into a single lane. This morning a Chrysler 300M pulled up next to me. I looked over looking for the Hemi badge. Because I knew if it were a Hemi, I wouldn't even have tried. He would have blown me away. Nope, no Hemi badge. So, I thought why not?. He knew exactly what he was doing and the point he was going to try to make. Light turned green, we were off. neck and neck?? I started to pull away, I could hear his engine rev, my engine rev.. I kept pulling away little by little. I had him by about 3 feet as we approached the lane merge, he backed down!!.. I was shocked and bewildered. My little Fusion with its "underpowered" 3.0 take on the Goliath of sports sedans and have it back down? At work I did some research on the 300. The only thing I could think of it was a 3.5 with AWD and the weight and AWD is what gave me the advantage.. :confuse:
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Now HERE is a guy that should have bought a Camry Hybrid. With tax incentives, not that much more than the average Milan. And I literally guarantee he would have at least doubled his gas mileage---ESPECIALLY in NYC. I've concluded its impossible to average less than 30 mpg in this car. My low for a tank is 33.9, and that was the first tank. Now I'm up to just about 36. And I commute 70 miles a day in the nation's second worst traffic.
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Not to take anything away from you, but I drove a Dodge Charger (same car, different badge), and it had the standard engine, which is a 2.7 V6. Same engine as the Stratus. That car is SLOW. Smooth enough, but SLOW. REALLY slow. Big car, lots of weight, small overworked engine.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yeah, a Chrysler 300 with the 3.5L engine clocked 7.3 sec 0-60, I believe the normal time I see for a Fusion is between 7.2 and 7.4sec, so that's definitely do-able.

    BTW, I think you meant a just a "300" Touring or Limited sedan. A 300C would've had the hemi, and the 300M would've been a few years old I believe: image
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Not to take anything away from you, but I drove a Dodge Charger (same car, different badge), and it had the standard engine, which is a 2.7 V6. Same engine as the Stratus. That car is SLOW. Smooth enough, but SLOW. REALLY slow. Big car, lots of weight, small overworked engine.

    Actually, per Dodge.com, Charger comes standard with the 3.5L 250 hp engine. Only the base model 300 and Magnum wagon come with the 2.7L 190 hp engine.
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