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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Comments
Maybe it's a meaningless award from the leasing industry.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have, and its not all what you hear in the media. Take a closer look and you will be surprised. Assembled is way different than made..
Ok, my Fusion is assembled in Mexico. It was engineered by an American. I would be willing to bet most of the tooling that assembles the car is U.S. and U.S. supported. Much like most of the tooling in the Japanese plants are Japanese and much of the support is Japanese, along with management, supervisors ect...
Maybe its better to you, but it may not be to the next guy; remember that.
Maybe some parts of it. Isn't the basic platform from the Mazda6? And isn't the Fusion's 4-cylinder engine also a Mazda design?
Yes in answer to your question maybe 10-20 auto plants of all makes. The steel and aluminum and glass and rubber and fabric and ( you get the point ) are made by companies like US Steel, Armco, LTV ( at that time ), Alcoa, Michelin, Goodyear, Lear, GE, etc..you get the point.
You are way off base on this...out of your league in fact.
Toyota's now are designed in Newport Beach & MI, then tested in AZ with parts from the US. The Sienna infact has over 90% of it's parts made here - by Americans. What a great idea :shades: .
Maybe you've never driven a GM product or something. All my GM cars with chronic problems were fine for the first year. Even the second year. By the third and fourth years...different story.
I happen to think the Fusion is a well built car, and I don't anticipate major problems. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it. But has Ford toppled Honda and Toyota in that department? No way...its going to take a lot more than a year to prove that.
The resale issue works both ways--ultimately, it neutralizes the argument that "my car is cheaper" because on the other end, well, your car is still cheaper. So its just a matter of whether or not you want to make some money on the deal now, upfront, or later. With all my other cars, I chose to make money upfront and bought cheaper GM cars. Then I got killed on resale. This time I decided to try it the other way and make a larger upfront investment--but I know I'll recoup it on the other end. Really there's not much difference...other than now I'm driving a better car. (And before somebody say well that's your opinion, please...who is really going to tell me that my Oldsmobile Intrigue was a better car than my new Camry Hybrid?)
Right, which is why Camry's are flying off lots at record paces, and fewest days in stock on a Camry is so far ahead of something like a Buick LaCrosse that its not even comparable. Uh huh...sure, those midsize buyers are driving right past the Toyota dealer---it must be martians who are making the Camry the best selling car in America. Again.
And another thing (yeah I'm rolling now)--don't people realize every individual dealer is different? There is no point in rolling together dealers by manufactuer, it depends on the auto group. Virtually everybody on the internet, edmunds included, will tell you that the best dealership on the planet to deal with is Fitzgerald Automalls. (the famous www.fitzmall.com). The price is on the internet, you show up, you buy the car, they treat you well, yada yada. Well they also sell TWENTY ONE different brands. But, see...Toyota dealers are evil...well guess where i bought my Toyota? Fitzgerald! And got the same great price and service as everybody else. So why do I care that supposedly Toyota dealers aren't nice? It all depends on the dealers, and its not brand specific, its dealer company specific.
In my view, sorry, GM midsizes are not competitive right now. I've bought them and owned them, and right now there's nothing I would buy--the LaCrosse handles poorly, has a badly designed interior, is not particulary roomy, and in order to get a decent engine you have to pay a fortune. So I'm looking at $26 grand anyway just to get into the VVT--why would I do that? I can have a Camry SE V6 for that, or an Accord EX V6 and have money left over for that. (Or in my case my hybrid--which is faster than a LaCrosse with the 3.8 V6 anyway).
CTS is fine, but its long in the tooth--we are looking at a 5+ year old design at this point. And to get one at $30 large you have to drive a wimpy 2.8 engine. No thanks.
The only car I'd even look at is the Saturn Aura--and right now that's priced MORE than the Camry and Accord. And my educated guess is that build quality is not going to be as good. So why would I do that?
You guys need to understand what Accords and Camrys really are selling for, and you need to compare them to American cars that actually have those same options on it. The gap is not what you think it is. The exception to this are the Hyundai products, which are running a couple grand ahead of comparables, so at least I can grant that they are good values.
The Fusion wasn't just "decent" in it's first year. It was almost perfect. And it may have issues down the road but it's not going to "fall apart" just because it has a blue oval on the grille.
I drove a Lincoln LS for 6 years. When I traded it in it was still tight as a drum and in perfect condition. There were several small issues the first year or two - engineering/supplier problems - that once fixed were fine.
It's not 1995 anymore.
***
So I'm looking at $26 grand anyway just to get into the VVT--why would I do that?
***
Sigh. Because you get an engine that whomps all over the competition. Trust me - it's not $26K, either, if you get a 2006. GMs sell for near invoice as it is, then there's a slew of rebates. $22-23K effective cost is more like it(see below). And the CTS, I can show you one with the 3.6VVT engine in it, not the base - for $30K out the door, including delivery.
Here, let's do a comparison.
Camry XLE V6(because the LE is a joke - you can spend $5000+ on it to option it out like the GM) versus a LaCrosse CXS. Cars Direct, because it's easily verfiable and close to "street" prices. Note - even the SE isn't really comparable - they make you pay for floormats, leather seats, and all sorts of small nonsense.
Camry:
$24,407(awfully close to MSRP) plus the following options:
- wheel locks(told you it was silly what they don't add standard anymore)
- body color side molding(because two-tone looks "rental")
- stability control
- floor mats(though I was joking?)
$28,095 total, delivered.
Typical 8% loan for 60 months, $34,692 total paid on the Camry. (no fees, taxes, or anything computed - just interest alone)
2006 LaCrosse CXS:
- driver package
- stability control
- heated seats
$27,482 total.
Now, you'll probably say "wait - that's a 2007 vs a 2006!".
But GM has financing programs on the 2006 models. 0% for up to 60 months. That's a $7210 savings over the Camry. In fact, that's about one year's depreciation - a significant chunk of money.
Let's figure out what you could buy from Toyota that would total $27,482 total financed...(it's not going to be pretty - lol) I get $458 a month. Roughly $22,260. I don't think you can get a stripped-down Camry V6 LE for that.
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB70TOC021F0&restor- - e=false
Nope, not quite. $500 short. On a no-option LE.
This is what I meant by it being far less expensive. Most buyers don't figure out the entire equation and 0% financing is a huge factor. BTW, Chrysler is also doing it now. That 2006 Wrangler(new one is a bloated joke at nearly 500lbs heavier) for $20K/0% is mighty nice looking. Honda and Toyota? As if.
***
So, now that we've beaten the "cost" part of the equation to death - it's a clear win for GM here, we get to reliability.
GM is scoring well in initial quality. And their engines and transmissions are about half the cost to repair compared to the Toyota, so it's a clear win here as well - but only if you bother to look at where the money is going in the long-term.
... but they are having problems with them. Sludge in the engines, are you still living in 1999? This was two generations ago..give it up it doesn't exist any longer.
transmissions that cost $3000-$3500 to fix, What are you talking about? This is the strongest part of any Toyota and with a 5/60 warranty it's rarely an issue. Provide some data and a reliable source for any signicant problems.
and of course, no financing deals at all. OK that makes sense. It's a brand new vehicle and it's setting records in sales. Why should there be financing deals at this time?
Your pricing analysis is accurate. And I understand your frustration that many, many, many buyers opt for the more expensive Camry XLE V6 over say a LaCrosse. But it's their money to do with as they wish. Can you imagine that some people even spend $70,000 to purchase wheels...sheesh.
(1)GM is scoring well in initial quality. (2)And their engines and transmissions are about half the cost to repair compared to the Toyota, so it's a clear win here as well - but only if you bother to look at where the money is going in the long-term.
Statement (1) is correct. Statement (2) is false or unverifiable. Do you have significant amounts of data on the new 2007 Toyota engines to support this claim?
Camry woes
Read all about the toyota Lexus, toyota Avalon, and Toyota Camry trans problems. It's strange Toyota put a rep, TMUSA, on the group to handle PR as quickly as possible to spin the problems and the handling of the problems. Did they just do that for the pure good-heartedness of wanting to publicize the problem? No, they were trying to short circuit information getting out!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Not true at all. The 4T65 transmission in my GM car failed at 35K miles and that's with me taking good care of it with a transmission flush & filter change @ 25K miles.
The dealership recommend a remanufactured transmision at a cost of $3600. They told me they could repair it but it would comeback eventually.
I read in the Lemon Aid book that the Midsize GM vehicles have an issue with premature transmission failure.
GM is going down. They keep making the same product but they can't perfect it. Same with their workhorse 3800.
Intake manifold problems from 1998-2005. GM can't solve their problems with the 3.1L V6, 3.4L V6 and 3.8L V6.
At 10K miles I started loosing coolant so they replaced the intake gasket and added sawdust into the coolant mix so that it would stop leaking.
I won't touch a GM car again. I had $1500 worth of GM Visa points but threw it out and decided to go with Chrysler.
I would think you would know better than to judge the problems a car has by the posts on a particular forum. BMW, Subaru, Infiniti (I believe) that I know of, and there may be more, all have had representation on Edmunds and other boards. What conclusion can you draw from this? Nothing. All brands have had issues, not one has been immune and some more than others have issues. Toyota is not one of them. Believe me, they are lucky that people on autopilot just buy their cars. I want to develop a business model like that. Oh wait, GM/Ford already tried that, and they tripped over their shoelaces.
It's an issue that seems to be dissolving away in the same way the initial issues with the Avalon did. captain2?
OTOH my statement in reply to plekto's blanket generalization (2) is ..what costs? All the 2007 transmissions that were fixed/adjusted cost the owners...........NOTHING, ZERO, ZIP, $0.00!!
Prior Gen models of the Camry have been noteworthy for their dependability and reliability as was be expected? There are no complaints of any major significance in these past models.
So again. What costs?
What are the best midsize sportiest sedans in the world in the $30K to $40K range ? No holds barred North American, European and Japanese, any make or model in the world (sold in the US). They must be fully loaded midsized (not full sized please) sedans with an engine that will make the car go like a 'bat outta hell'.
Format Make, model, price, comment if you wish.
example: 2007 BMW, 328xi (hopefully comes in a 4 door, we have a child), $39K MSRP, why I like it-300 hp.,4 year/50K mile bumper to bumper warantee, good buy for the money.
You opinions are greatly appreciated.
Strange? I guess one might think so from a domestic pov. But it sounds like a smart move to get a direct representative in the mix to hear out the specific woes and report them directly back to Management. Those few clients with the snap-ring issue apparently greatly appreciated the immediate response and reaction. If the various TSB's that have since been issued do ameliorate the problems then having someone jump right on the problem was certainly the correct move. Maybe the detroiters should take note and use this as a case study ( and the similar Honda tranny situation ) on how to handle a difficult situation and keep clients in the family.
November is the 'restocking' month before Toyotathon begins on about Dec 10th. December, especially the last 7 days is normally the third/fourth largest month of the year.
Toyota announced a couple of months ago that it was doubling production/shipments of the Prius over the last two years of this Gen's life.
Try the entry level luxury sports sedans thread.
There they compare the TL, G35, IS, CTS, 328 and others.
All manufacturers have issues and it's easy to pick on Toyota. But their sales prove people like the brand in spite of some naysaying.
damon34, "2007 Toyota Camry Woes" #2416, 18 Nov 2006 11:45 am
Yeah I guess they are dissolving away as customers sell them or they're bought back...
kyhpyder says: It's an issue that seems to be dissolving away in the same way
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
kdhpyder is correct in stating that one shouldn't take what we see in these forums too seriously. Obviously your cutpasted quote is one where one person expressed frustration, but it isn't indicative of a landslide of disgruntled owners selling their cars!
The transmission issue does seem to be fading away, just like the sludge issue of a few years back faded away. No doubt there will be other issues which arise in the future. It happens with all automakers; issue come and go. There are no "perfect" cars. Furthermore, there are far more important things in life to get upset about. So chill!
Back to the topic.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Not as wide a gap as I think uh?? Go to the Milan vs Camry room and scroll through the posts. There was a guy in there that paid $4,500 MORE!@ for a Camry like optioned to a Milan. Tell him your story. He left and hasn't been back since...
Trying to convince the public Toyota/Honda are actually less or even close in price is a joke. Get out on the net and see other chat rooms, or even here at Edmunds. You claim a Camry SE V6 for $26,000!!!? Thats good? I paid $23,000 for a totally loaded Fusion SEL V6, leather, sunroof, 6CD changer, heated seats, every option that can be put on the Fusion. Once again.. $3,000 dollars difference isn't much?? :surprise:
damon34's is one situation, out of approximately 400,000 vehicles on the road now. No matter how many anecdotal examples you pick out the weight of numbers falls on the side of the public loving this vehicle. There is no way to get around it, it's too huge. Despite all the specific examples you bring up in sum they still are a tiny part of the crushing weight of another record year.
How about this for an hypothesis, 'The public loves this vehicle and has few if any complaints about it.'
Your implication is that someone, by spending $26000 iso the $23000 that you spent on your Fusion, did something wrong. They did nothing wrong, they just wanted a Camry or Accord or 3Series or LS460. It was their money and they chose to spend it as they wished. Why is that difficult to accept.
You are putting your personal values on an entire population, it can't be done. The person spending $26000 for a new body, new engine 2007 SE Camry over a 2006 Fusion with the old engine obviously saw value in it.... and it was his/her money to spend. They have that right :surprise: .
If you picked up a fully-loaded Fusion SEL V6 for $23,000.00 you did extremely well for yourself in regards to your negotiating skills! Congratulations on your new ride. I think the Fusion is a great-looking car myself. Also, I did a whole lot of engineering analysis for some of the electrical interconnect devices(connectors) that are used in the Fusion, so I can guarantee you that a lot of extensive engineering analysis and testing went into the electrical components that my employer supplies to Ford. We really sharpened our pencils on the Fusion-related projects we were responsible for.
Best of luck to you with your new Fusion! Should do you right.
Ron M.
You sound like a Toyota salesman.
Go read the section linked above. If you believe that only a small number of problems exist, you are overlooking that most, MOST, people aren't going to be posting on Edmunds about their Toyota problem. In fact, most people will be talked out of there being a problem by their service guy at the dealership. "They all do that." "You just have to learn to drive your 'special' Toyota." "There's no problem."
A few end up posting here. I understand from another post there's a large Toyota discussion on the net and there were discussions about the lag and flare problems.
So we obviously differ. I see lots of older folk around here who have bought Toyotas who probably think they have to have lag and or flare during shifting.
BTW. What's the mileage for first oil change for a Corolla?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The sheer volume of numbers speak. And the volume continues to grow. The KY plant is max'd out and at least 100,000 additional units will have to be redirected to the Subie plant in Indiana. This is not the characteristic of a model having major problems. Despite your herculean efforts to the contrary the public does love this Gen6 Camry, even more than before.
Under normal operating conditions, for all Toyota's it's 5000 miles or 6 months + rotate the tires.
The GM 4 speed can be rebuilt at thousands and thousands of shops around the U.S. for $1400-$1600. And last as long as a remanufactured unit from the dealer.(75% of the time it's just the torque converter that's shot)
GM and Ford are like this. (so is Hyundai/Kia) - They break more often, to be sure, but they cost about half as much. And Toyota seems to be having real BMW and Mercedes type problems with electronics and new fancy gizmos lately.
Oh - 0% and 23K - yeah, nice deal That's like, what - $18,000 after payments if you were to buy something without 0% financing? That is a complete steal compared to the Camry. About a $10K savings in fact.
Yes, but you fail to understand that WHEN the transmission fails is more important.
Which is worse for the owner:
Spending $1400 to fix a crap GM tranny when it goes kaput at 36,001 miles or $3500 for a toyota tranny at 234K?
As noted above, this in comparison to two separate Chryslers I had in the 90's one of which required a $2500 tranny and the other major work both at under 50,000 mi. On those I did not get my money's worth.
Oh - 0% and 23K - yeah, nice deal That's like, what - $18,000 after payments if you were to buy something without 0% financing? That is a complete steal compared to the Camry. About a $10K savings in fact.
That's one great thing about this country. There are so many models and so many choices that everyone can be happy.
Rather than let the situation linger and fester the immediate reaction seems to have worked.
Honda did the same thing when it had tranny problems a few years back and the situation was resolved and it didn't suffer at all. Likely the same thing will occur here. If something new comes along then they will just have to address that quickly too.
The vehicle's aren't made by divine hands. After the Ford/Firestone fiasco all manufacturers have learned to be careful not to let the inevitible 'hiccup' get out of hand. Jump on it and solve it.
back in '92 i had one of the first taurus sho's with an automatic tranny. there was a possible problem with the first 1500 off the line. ford provided a new transmission and a loaner while it was in for repair.
i should add that i drove a taurus loaner for the last couple of days. kind of hard to believe the doors were the same as the one we had in 1996.
Just out of curiosity, what are some of these "BMW and Mercedes type problems with electronics and new fancy gizmos" that you are referring to? I'd like to hear some explicit details on this.
Ron M.
I agree about the transmissio problems. If it were another brand, they would be just another problem like they always have.
The world's best car company shouldn't have been having all these problems, if truth were told. It takes a while for reps to drop especially when they have the loud, commandeering defenders. But it seems Toyota has regressed below the mean for its main line other than the Lexus model. And there is dropped in dealer satisfaction; an interesting problem.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
the last 3 i have driven have had it. i find it pretty annoying.
The SSI 'problem' is over 10 yrs old. Toyota and Honda and Mazda and Nissan all have been in the bottom half of the JD Power SSI survey most of the time. Yet... now including Hyundai which is also in the bottom half all 5 are setting record after record every month in sales volume. So what does that say?
The public loves the vehicles but doesn't like the process.
Buick gets HIGH marks but it's volume is shrinking. Go figure.