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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    Yea - but for those 3 years you drive a better car with a proven resale record. The Fusion's is a big unknown.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It was an unknown a year ago. Not now.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >Ford, Chevy and Chrysler

    Maybe it's a meaningless award from the leasing industry.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    Have you ever had the opportunity to visit any of these Japanese auto plants here in the U.S.

    I have, and its not all what you hear in the media. Take a closer look and you will be surprised. Assembled is way different than made..

    Ok, my Fusion is assembled in Mexico. It was engineered by an American. I would be willing to bet most of the tooling that assembles the car is U.S. and U.S. supported. Much like most of the tooling in the Japanese plants are Japanese and much of the support is Japanese, along with management, supervisors ect...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yea - but for those 3 years you drive a better car

    Maybe its better to you, but it may not be to the next guy; remember that.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Ok, my Fusion is assembled in Mexico. It was engineered by an American.

    Maybe some parts of it. Isn't the basic platform from the Mazda6? And isn't the Fusion's 4-cylinder engine also a Mazda design?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I was a steel supplier to Ford and Chrysler for about 10 yrs for several OEM parts where my company was the sole supplier. Mustangs, Crown Vic's, 100% of Chryslers heat shields, valve covers, as well as individual parts for Mazda ( Flat Rock ), Honda ( Marysville ) and Toyota ( Georgetown )through subcontractors.

    Yes in answer to your question maybe 10-20 auto plants of all makes. The steel and aluminum and glass and rubber and fabric and ( you get the point ) are made by companies like US Steel, Armco, LTV ( at that time ), Alcoa, Michelin, Goodyear, Lear, GE, etc..you get the point.

    You are way off base on this...out of your league in fact.

    Toyota's now are designed in Newport Beach & MI, then tested in AZ with parts from the US. The Sienna infact has over 90% of it's parts made here - by Americans. What a great idea :shades: .
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Are you kidding? You think one year of decent reliability makes a car "known."

    Maybe you've never driven a GM product or something. All my GM cars with chronic problems were fine for the first year. Even the second year. By the third and fourth years...different story.

    I happen to think the Fusion is a well built car, and I don't anticipate major problems. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it. But has Ford toppled Honda and Toyota in that department? No way...its going to take a lot more than a year to prove that.

    The resale issue works both ways--ultimately, it neutralizes the argument that "my car is cheaper" because on the other end, well, your car is still cheaper. So its just a matter of whether or not you want to make some money on the deal now, upfront, or later. With all my other cars, I chose to make money upfront and bought cheaper GM cars. Then I got killed on resale. This time I decided to try it the other way and make a larger upfront investment--but I know I'll recoup it on the other end. Really there's not much difference...other than now I'm driving a better car. (And before somebody say well that's your opinion, please...who is really going to tell me that my Oldsmobile Intrigue was a better car than my new Camry Hybrid?)
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    See, plekto's post is endemic of what we see on here...take a shot at Toyota's "trouble" and buyers "looking twice..."

    Right, which is why Camry's are flying off lots at record paces, and fewest days in stock on a Camry is so far ahead of something like a Buick LaCrosse that its not even comparable. Uh huh...sure, those midsize buyers are driving right past the Toyota dealer---it must be martians who are making the Camry the best selling car in America. Again.

    And another thing (yeah I'm rolling now)--don't people realize every individual dealer is different? There is no point in rolling together dealers by manufactuer, it depends on the auto group. Virtually everybody on the internet, edmunds included, will tell you that the best dealership on the planet to deal with is Fitzgerald Automalls. (the famous www.fitzmall.com). The price is on the internet, you show up, you buy the car, they treat you well, yada yada. Well they also sell TWENTY ONE different brands. But, see...Toyota dealers are evil...well guess where i bought my Toyota? Fitzgerald! And got the same great price and service as everybody else. So why do I care that supposedly Toyota dealers aren't nice? It all depends on the dealers, and its not brand specific, its dealer company specific.

    In my view, sorry, GM midsizes are not competitive right now. I've bought them and owned them, and right now there's nothing I would buy--the LaCrosse handles poorly, has a badly designed interior, is not particulary roomy, and in order to get a decent engine you have to pay a fortune. So I'm looking at $26 grand anyway just to get into the VVT--why would I do that? I can have a Camry SE V6 for that, or an Accord EX V6 and have money left over for that. (Or in my case my hybrid--which is faster than a LaCrosse with the 3.8 V6 anyway).

    CTS is fine, but its long in the tooth--we are looking at a 5+ year old design at this point. And to get one at $30 large you have to drive a wimpy 2.8 engine. No thanks.

    The only car I'd even look at is the Saturn Aura--and right now that's priced MORE than the Camry and Accord. And my educated guess is that build quality is not going to be as good. So why would I do that?

    You guys need to understand what Accords and Camrys really are selling for, and you need to compare them to American cars that actually have those same options on it. The gap is not what you think it is. The exception to this are the Hyundai products, which are running a couple grand ahead of comparables, so at least I can grant that they are good values.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    Our local dealer - Chrysler, Hyundai, Kia, Mazda, Scion, Toyota, and VW - all in one location, has a tremendous inventory of 2007 Camry's and Prius. I've driven through their Toyota lot every couple of days for the past three weeks. I wouldn't say either the Camry or Prius are "flying off the lot," this is simply not true at this dealer. In fact, I've never seen so many brand new Prius at one dealer at a given time - over 15 in stock at the moment. And, at least as many Camrys. And, a bunch of the 2007 Camrys have been on the lot for a long time.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    While I'm not a real fan of most Toyota products, last year they had a record year. I don't think they lost buyers they gain a lot of buyers. People will buy their product for the nameplate, just like people will buy their product for the nameplate. It's not really the nameplate, it's what's behind the nameplate. People do not have a problem, paying for a Camry, because they feel they get something for their money. A point lost to some posting here. I personally wouldn't buy a Camry, but they are as common flys.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Once again you're comparing 10 year old american cars with new camcords. Back then you could get into a brand new GM, Chrysler or Ford and you could tell it wasn't going to hold together. That's why I bought Hondas and Acuras in the late 80's/early 90's. I understand that you might be wary having been burned in the past but you need to give credit to the domestics for greatly improved products.

    The Fusion wasn't just "decent" in it's first year. It was almost perfect. And it may have issues down the road but it's not going to "fall apart" just because it has a blue oval on the grille.

    I drove a Lincoln LS for 6 years. When I traded it in it was still tight as a drum and in perfect condition. There were several small issues the first year or two - engineering/supplier problems - that once fixed were fine.

    It's not 1995 anymore.
  • lahirilahiri Member Posts: 394
    Yes, I forgot that Ford, Chevy are leasing companies. Financial arms of these companies make all the money, and their auto business are unprofitable for years.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I stand by what I said. Now, true, the Camry is selling mostly on autopilot, but they are having problems with them. Sludge in the engines, transmissions that cost $3000-$3500 to fix, and of course, no financing deals at all.

    ***
    So I'm looking at $26 grand anyway just to get into the VVT--why would I do that?
    ***
    Sigh. Because you get an engine that whomps all over the competition. Trust me - it's not $26K, either, if you get a 2006. GMs sell for near invoice as it is, then there's a slew of rebates. $22-23K effective cost is more like it(see below). And the CTS, I can show you one with the 3.6VVT engine in it, not the base - for $30K out the door, including delivery.

    Here, let's do a comparison.
    Camry XLE V6(because the LE is a joke - you can spend $5000+ on it to option it out like the GM) versus a LaCrosse CXS. Cars Direct, because it's easily verfiable and close to "street" prices. Note - even the SE isn't really comparable - they make you pay for floormats, leather seats, and all sorts of small nonsense.

    Camry:
    $24,407(awfully close to MSRP) plus the following options:
    - wheel locks(told you it was silly what they don't add standard anymore)
    - body color side molding(because two-tone looks "rental")
    - stability control
    - floor mats(though I was joking?)
    $28,095 total, delivered.
    Typical 8% loan for 60 months, $34,692 total paid on the Camry. (no fees, taxes, or anything computed - just interest alone)

    2006 LaCrosse CXS:
    - driver package
    - stability control
    - heated seats
    $27,482 total.

    Now, you'll probably say "wait - that's a 2007 vs a 2006!".
    But GM has financing programs on the 2006 models. 0% for up to 60 months. That's a $7210 savings over the Camry. In fact, that's about one year's depreciation - a significant chunk of money.

    Let's figure out what you could buy from Toyota that would total $27,482 total financed...(it's not going to be pretty - lol) I get $458 a month. Roughly $22,260. I don't think you can get a stripped-down Camry V6 LE for that.

    http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB70TOC021F0&restor- - e=false
    Nope, not quite. $500 short. On a no-option LE.

    This is what I meant by it being far less expensive. Most buyers don't figure out the entire equation and 0% financing is a huge factor. BTW, Chrysler is also doing it now. That 2006 Wrangler(new one is a bloated joke at nearly 500lbs heavier) for $20K/0% is mighty nice looking. Honda and Toyota? As if.
    ***
    So, now that we've beaten the "cost" part of the equation to death - it's a clear win for GM here, we get to reliability.

    GM is scoring well in initial quality. And their engines and transmissions are about half the cost to repair compared to the Toyota, so it's a clear win here as well - but only if you bother to look at where the money is going in the long-term.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    .... Now, true, the Camry is selling mostly on autopilot, you disparage the American consumer. That's a horrible mistake.

    ... but they are having problems with them. Sludge in the engines, are you still living in 1999? This was two generations ago..give it up it doesn't exist any longer.

    transmissions that cost $3000-$3500 to fix, What are you talking about? This is the strongest part of any Toyota and with a 5/60 warranty it's rarely an issue. Provide some data and a reliable source for any signicant problems.

    and of course, no financing deals at all. OK that makes sense. It's a brand new vehicle and it's setting records in sales. Why should there be financing deals at this time?

    Your pricing analysis is accurate. And I understand your frustration that many, many, many buyers opt for the more expensive Camry XLE V6 over say a LaCrosse. But it's their money to do with as they wish. Can you imagine that some people even spend $70,000 to purchase wheels...sheesh.

    (1)GM is scoring well in initial quality. (2)And their engines and transmissions are about half the cost to repair compared to the Toyota, so it's a clear win here as well - but only if you bother to look at where the money is going in the long-term.

    Statement (1) is correct. Statement (2) is false or unverifiable. Do you have significant amounts of data on the new 2007 Toyota engines to support this claim?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    d>Statement (1) is correct. Statement (2) is false or unverifiable. Do you have significant amounts of data on the new 2007 Toyota engines to support this claim?

    Camry woes

    Read all about the toyota Lexus, toyota Avalon, and Toyota Camry trans problems. It's strange Toyota put a rep, TMUSA, on the group to handle PR as quickly as possible to spin the problems and the handling of the problems. Did they just do that for the pure good-heartedness of wanting to publicize the problem? No, they were trying to short circuit information getting out!

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Wait! I wouldn't buy a GM because of financing. You'll be making the savings in repairs after the warranty. Where with a Toyota the car will probably need little over the course of it's lifetime.
  • batistabatista Member Posts: 159
    GM is scoring well in initial quality. And their engines and transmissions are about half the cost to repair compared to the Toyota, so it's a clear win here as well - but only if you bother to look at where the money is going in the long-term. --Whatever!

    Not true at all. The 4T65 transmission in my GM car failed at 35K miles and that's with me taking good care of it with a transmission flush & filter change @ 25K miles.
    The dealership recommend a remanufactured transmision at a cost of $3600. They told me they could repair it but it would comeback eventually.
    I read in the Lemon Aid book that the Midsize GM vehicles have an issue with premature transmission failure.
    GM is going down. They keep making the same product but they can't perfect it. Same with their workhorse 3800.
    Intake manifold problems from 1998-2005. GM can't solve their problems with the 3.1L V6, 3.4L V6 and 3.8L V6.
    At 10K miles I started loosing coolant so they replaced the intake gasket and added sawdust into the coolant mix so that it would stop leaking.
    I won't touch a GM car again. I had $1500 worth of GM Visa points but threw it out and decided to go with Chrysler.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Read all about the toyota Lexus, toyota Avalon, and Toyota Camry trans problems. It's strange Toyota put a rep, TMUSA, on the group to handle PR as quickly as possible to spin the problems and the handling of the problems."

    I would think you would know better than to judge the problems a car has by the posts on a particular forum. BMW, Subaru, Infiniti (I believe) that I know of, and there may be more, all have had representation on Edmunds and other boards. What conclusion can you draw from this? Nothing. All brands have had issues, not one has been immune and some more than others have issues. Toyota is not one of them. Believe me, they are lucky that people on autopilot just buy their cars. I want to develop a business model like that. Oh wait, GM/Ford already tried that, and they tripped over their shoelaces.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I'm aware of this thread.. and some people do have issues with the performance that's for certain. But as you can see by the activity of the thread it seems to be dying out as the sales of this new model approach 400,000 units.

    It's an issue that seems to be dissolving away in the same way the initial issues with the Avalon did. captain2?

    OTOH my statement in reply to plekto's blanket generalization (2) is ..what costs? All the 2007 transmissions that were fixed/adjusted cost the owners...........NOTHING, ZERO, ZIP, $0.00!!

    Prior Gen models of the Camry have been noteworthy for their dependability and reliability as was be expected? There are no complaints of any major significance in these past models.

    So again. What costs?
  • flash11flash11 Member Posts: 98
    We have been shopping around and we are completely stumped as to what to go with. We thought we would ask the experts their opinions.
    What are the best midsize sportiest sedans in the world in the $30K to $40K range ? No holds barred North American, European and Japanese, any make or model in the world (sold in the US). They must be fully loaded midsized (not full sized please) sedans with an engine that will make the car go like a 'bat outta hell'.

    Format Make, model, price, comment if you wish.
    example: 2007 BMW, 328xi (hopefully comes in a 4 door, we have a child), $39K MSRP, why I like it-300 hp.,4 year/50K mile bumper to bumper warantee, good buy for the money.

    You opinions are greatly appreciated.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It's strange Toyota put a rep, TMUSA, on the group to handle PR as quickly as possible to spin the problems and the handling of the problems.

    Strange? I guess one might think so from a domestic pov. But it sounds like a smart move to get a direct representative in the mix to hear out the specific woes and report them directly back to Management. Those few clients with the snap-ring issue apparently greatly appreciated the immediate response and reaction. If the various TSB's that have since been issued do ameliorate the problems then having someone jump right on the problem was certainly the correct move. Maybe the detroiters should take note and use this as a case study ( and the similar Honda tranny situation ) on how to handle a difficult situation and keep clients in the family.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I wouldn't say either the Camry or Prius are "flying off the lot," this is simply not true at this dealer. In fact, I've never seen so many brand new Prius at one dealer at a given time - over 15 in stock at the moment

    November is the 'restocking' month before Toyotathon begins on about Dec 10th. December, especially the last 7 days is normally the third/fourth largest month of the year.

    Toyota announced a couple of months ago that it was doubling production/shipments of the Prius over the last two years of this Gen's life.
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    What are the best midsize sportiest sedans in the world in the $30K to $40K range ?

    Try the entry level luxury sports sedans thread.

    There they compare the TL, G35, IS, CTS, 328 and others.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Do you want sport sedans or entry level luxury sport sedans. Without luxury the STI is all around best in class and a hoot to drive as well. Turbo, 4wd, easy to drive, reliable and fast. All for about $32K. For $40K and under the IS350, G35, 335, 328 and others all have varying amounts of luxury vs sport. As suggested head on over the Entry Level Luxury Sports Sedan board to see peoples opinions.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    In addition, Infiniti is a highly ranked brand in terms of quality and reliability. Head on over to the G35 problems and solutions board to see some of the issues Infiniti owners face. Car shuddering from the tranny, brake woes, bad headlight assembly and whatever else is there.

    All manufacturers have issues and it's easy to pick on Toyota. But their sales prove people like the brand in spite of some naysaying.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    "Well I am sorry to see that alot of people are still having problems with the 4cyl. I traded my 2007 se 4cyl in alittle over a month ago. It cost me about 4 grand but I am alot happier without the problems. I will never buy another toyota again. My wife and I both buy new cars every two years, So I guess that is money that Toyota will not be receiving from us again. Good luck to everybody ."
    damon34, "2007 Toyota Camry Woes" #2416, 18 Nov 2006 11:45 am

    Yeah I guess they are dissolving away as customers sell them or they're bought back...

    kyhpyder says: It's an issue that seems to be dissolving away in the same way

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gmontagewgmontagew Member Posts: 32
    Hold on now!! This is a comparison forum, not one to vent at an automaker with unproven, unwarranted,and outragious statements!
    kdhpyder is correct in stating that one shouldn't take what we see in these forums too seriously. Obviously your cutpasted quote is one where one person expressed frustration, but it isn't indicative of a landslide of disgruntled owners selling their cars!
    The transmission issue does seem to be fading away, just like the sludge issue of a few years back faded away. No doubt there will be other issues which arise in the future. It happens with all automakers; issue come and go. There are no "perfect" cars. Furthermore, there are far more important things in life to get upset about. So chill!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    I was replying to kdspyder. I provided a response to the outrageous claim that there was no problem anymore as to why. You may have your own opinion. Please don't impose it on me since you obviously protoyota.

    Back to the topic.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    Hate to break the news to ya.. Cars are a bad "investment"..
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    "You guys need to understand what Accords and Camrys really are selling for, and you need to compare them to American cars that actually have those same options on it. The gap is not what you think it is. The exception to this are the Hyundai products, which are running a couple grand ahead of comparables, so at least I can grant that they are good values. "

    Not as wide a gap as I think uh?? Go to the Milan vs Camry room and scroll through the posts. There was a guy in there that paid $4,500 MORE!@ for a Camry like optioned to a Milan. Tell him your story. He left and hasn't been back since...
    Trying to convince the public Toyota/Honda are actually less or even close in price is a joke. Get out on the net and see other chat rooms, or even here at Edmunds. You claim a Camry SE V6 for $26,000!!!? Thats good? I paid $23,000 for a totally loaded Fusion SEL V6, leather, sunroof, 6CD changer, heated seats, every option that can be put on the Fusion. Once again.. $3,000 dollars difference isn't much?? :surprise:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    damon34 was one of the ones having the problems and he solved it by trading away his vehicle. Nevertheless it is going away as the TSB's are implemented and/or the drivers become accustomed to the vehicle's characteristics.

    damon34's is one situation, out of approximately 400,000 vehicles on the road now. No matter how many anecdotal examples you pick out the weight of numbers falls on the side of the public loving this vehicle. There is no way to get around it, it's too huge. Despite all the specific examples you bring up in sum they still are a tiny part of the crushing weight of another record year.

    How about this for an hypothesis, 'The public loves this vehicle and has few if any complaints about it.'
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Also forgot to add. I got 0% financing on my Ford which will make it even less $$ over the lifetime of the loan..
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Trying to convince the public Toyota/Honda are actually less or even close in price is a joke. Get out on the net and see other chat rooms, or even here at Edmunds. You claim a Camry SE V6 for $26,000!!!? Thats good? I paid $23,000 for a totally loaded Fusion SEL V6, leather, sunroof, 6CD changer, heated seats, every option that can be put on the Fusion. Once again.. $3,000 dollars difference isn't much??

    Your implication is that someone, by spending $26000 iso the $23000 that you spent on your Fusion, did something wrong. They did nothing wrong, they just wanted a Camry or Accord or 3Series or LS460. It was their money and they chose to spend it as they wished. Why is that difficult to accept.

    You are putting your personal values on an entire population, it can't be done. The person spending $26000 for a new body, new engine 2007 SE Camry over a 2006 Fusion with the old engine obviously saw value in it.... and it was his/her money to spend. They have that right :surprise: .
  • ron_mron_m Member Posts: 186
    I paid $23,000 for a totally loaded Fusion SEL V6, leather, sunroof, 6CD changer, heated seats, every option that can be put on the Fusion.

    If you picked up a fully-loaded Fusion SEL V6 for $23,000.00 you did extremely well for yourself in regards to your negotiating skills! ;) Congratulations on your new ride. I think the Fusion is a great-looking car myself. Also, I did a whole lot of engineering analysis for some of the electrical interconnect devices(connectors) that are used in the Fusion, so I can guarantee you that a lot of extensive engineering analysis and testing went into the electrical components that my employer supplies to Ford. We really sharpened our pencils on the Fusion-related projects we were responsible for.

    Best of luck to you with your new Fusion! Should do you right.

    Ron M.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >'The public loves this vehicle and has few if any complaints about it.'

    You sound like a Toyota salesman.

    Go read the section linked above. If you believe that only a small number of problems exist, you are overlooking that most, MOST, people aren't going to be posting on Edmunds about their Toyota problem. In fact, most people will be talked out of there being a problem by their service guy at the dealership. "They all do that." "You just have to learn to drive your 'special' Toyota." "There's no problem."

    A few end up posting here. I understand from another post there's a large Toyota discussion on the net and there were discussions about the lag and flare problems.

    So we obviously differ. I see lots of older folk around here who have bought Toyotas who probably think they have to have lag and or flare during shifting.

    BTW. What's the mileage for first oil change for a Corolla?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I've been participating and watching that thread since it began, orignally on TN, with the snap ring issue. That's why I stated that since the recent TSB's the issue is dissolving away.

    The sheer volume of numbers speak. And the volume continues to grow. The KY plant is max'd out and at least 100,000 additional units will have to be redirected to the Subie plant in Indiana. This is not the characteristic of a model having major problems. Despite your herculean efforts to the contrary ;) the public does love this Gen6 Camry, even more than before.

    Under normal operating conditions, for all Toyota's it's 5000 miles or 6 months + rotate the tires.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The thing is, that 6 speed automatic, when it does fail, is $3500. And eventually all transmissions do fail. That $3500 was on an older 2003 Camry. I was in there looking at the used Celicas a few months ago and ran into this guy. Car was just out of warranty and poof - $3500. He was suitably apalled.

    The GM 4 speed can be rebuilt at thousands and thousands of shops around the U.S. for $1400-$1600. And last as long as a remanufactured unit from the dealer.(75% of the time it's just the torque converter that's shot)

    GM and Ford are like this. (so is Hyundai/Kia) - They break more often, to be sure, but they cost about half as much. And Toyota seems to be having real BMW and Mercedes type problems with electronics and new fancy gizmos lately.

    Oh - 0% and 23K - yeah, nice deal :) That's like, what - $18,000 after payments if you were to buy something without 0% financing? That is a complete steal compared to the Camry. About a $10K savings in fact.
  • germancarfan1germancarfan1 Member Posts: 221
    "And eventually all transmissions do fail."

    Yes, but you fail to understand that WHEN the transmission fails is more important.
    Which is worse for the owner:

    Spending $1400 to fix a crap GM tranny when it goes kaput at 36,001 miles or $3500 for a toyota tranny at 234K?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    My experience with 4 previous Camry's, each in excess of 125000 miles was that they began to 'show age' at 175-200K mi. At this point on my '97 I had the option of putting in a new tranny for $2800 or trade the vehicle for $2500, AS IS. I traded it. $2500 for a 7 y.o. 4c LE with a clunky tranny was acceptable. I got my use out of it.

    As noted above, this in comparison to two separate Chryslers I had in the 90's one of which required a $2500 tranny and the other major work both at under 50,000 mi. On those I did not get my money's worth.

    Oh - 0% and 23K - yeah, nice deal That's like, what - $18,000 after payments if you were to buy something without 0% financing? That is a complete steal compared to the Camry. About a $10K savings in fact.

    That's one great thing about this country. There are so many models and so many choices that everyone can be happy.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If a Fusion had the same transmission problem that Toyota had we'd never hear the end of it. Why can't you just admit that Toyota had a hiccup in their supposedly bulletproof reliability? Make that 2 hiccups going back to the engine sludge. Of course they tried to blame that one on the consumer until the PR got too bad.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I never said that they didn't. In fact if you look at the previous posts I said that by having a representative join in here was a great means of finding out what the problems were and relaying them back to Management.

    Rather than let the situation linger and fester the immediate reaction seems to have worked.

    Honda did the same thing when it had tranny problems a few years back and the situation was resolved and it didn't suffer at all. Likely the same thing will occur here. If something new comes along then they will just have to address that quickly too.

    The vehicle's aren't made by divine hands. After the Ford/Firestone fiasco all manufacturers have learned to be careful not to let the inevitible 'hiccup' get out of hand. Jump on it and solve it.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    i think you are right. the manufacturers have figured out that they can't let their flagship have a problem that goes unresolved. ford sort of did this with the explorer, although they did try to make it right, somewhat belatedly for those who suffered. i wonder if tmsusa would have posted if the issue had been with an '06 sequoia? (a slow seller).
    back in '92 i had one of the first taurus sho's with an automatic tranny. there was a possible problem with the first 1500 off the line. ford provided a new transmission and a loaner while it was in for repair.
    i should add that i drove a taurus loaner for the last couple of days. kind of hard to believe the doors were the same as the one we had in 1996.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • rickypaulrickypaul Member Posts: 24
    In "real world" pricing I found the same thing. The Camcords are expensive. I tested both an Accord and a Camry both stickered in the 24's. Both had 4 cyl engines. I tested a Fusion 4 and a Mazda 6-6cyl in the same price range. They weren't making deals on the fusion because it was selling very well. I liked the more sporty feel of the 6. I ended up with a 6 cyl 6 demonstrator with a couple thousand miles on it for $18,935 out the door. Camcords are not over priced? My 6 is quieter, quicker, and better handling than either of the hondas for I figure about 5 g's less.
  • ron_mron_m Member Posts: 186
    And Toyota seems to be having real BMW and Mercedes type problems with electronics and new fancy gizmos lately.

    Just out of curiosity, what are some of these "BMW and Mercedes type problems with electronics and new fancy gizmos" that you are referring to? I'd like to hear some explicit details on this.

    Ron M.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Someone posted a list of all Toyota recalls in a forum. Was it this one?

    I agree about the transmissio problems. If it were another brand, they would be just another problem like they always have.

    The world's best car company shouldn't have been having all these problems, if truth were told. It takes a while for reps to drop especially when they have the loud, commandeering defenders. But it seems Toyota has regressed below the mean for its main line other than the Lexus model. And there is dropped in dealer satisfaction; an interesting problem.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rickypaulrickypaul Member Posts: 24
    My Mazda6 goes like a "bat out of hell" even around curves. Its less than your price range though. One car I test drove that was incredibly surprising to me though, was the Volvo S60. Its 5 cyl turbo went up hill with urgency and the force pushed me against the headrest. It had the most comfortable seat I ever sat in. Before you settle on a 3 series, give the S60 a drive. I was impressed. I would have bought it if I could afford it.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,250
    is vibration felt through the steering wheel normal?
    the last 3 i have driven have had it. i find it pretty annoying.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I don't get it. What do all the haters have against Toyota, and the Camry? Despite all the problems you claim the Camry has, almost half a million people each year buy them, for whatever the price. I don't exactly like the Camry myself (not my style), but if someone else wants one, I don't have a problem with that. I have been driving Accords for 15 years now, and I will continue to drive them until one disappoints me. Many on this forum have attacked the Accord, mainly for it's looks. When I look at the Accord, all I see is quality, and that makes it beautiful, in my eyes. I'm sure many Camry buyers feel the same way about their cars. The Honda haters have not changed my opinion of the Accord because my opinion has been formed over 15 wonderful years. I doubt you will change many of the repeat Camry buyer's opinions either. But I'm sure you will keep trying. :D
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You need to bring youself up to date a little. Here's a hint, the current cars are a lot more complex than they were in the 90's. Now they are rolling computers including the tranny's, the fuel system and nearly everything else. It's what the previous poster was referring to when he mentioned the BMW/MB gizmos. These vehicles are entirely different in every way than what was made even in 1999/2000. A mechanic with a wrench could do a lot to fix whatever ailed the more basic cars of that ancient era. Now an electronic specialist is required. Toyota/Honda/MB/BMW are all at the forefront of this seachange. Eventually all vehicles will be like this. Example, in most modern midsized vehicles there are at least 14 computers, like your laptop, each costing about $1500 to fix, some as much as $2500. Think an Extended Service Agreement is a good idea? Most ECU's are covered under the 3/36 Warranty.

    The SSI 'problem' is over 10 yrs old. Toyota and Honda and Mazda and Nissan all have been in the bottom half of the JD Power SSI survey most of the time. Yet... now including Hyundai which is also in the bottom half all 5 are setting record after record every month in sales volume. So what does that say?

    The public loves the vehicles but doesn't like the process.

    Buick gets HIGH marks but it's volume is shrinking. Go figure.
This discussion has been closed.