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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    exactly - and it may even be possible that the $23k was the amount on a lease contract - a number that a lot of folks confuse with a sales price. Really unimportant though - It seems like you KNOW what is important.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Easy enough to do rough check on european prices, even without knowing the language. I don't see that similar BMWs are any cheaper. A 3 series with a 2L gas engine looks to start at 26,000 Eur in Germany...that would be equivalent to $33,000. This is about the same as the base price here, even though the US model has a 3 L engine and perhaps other upgrades.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Accord EX V6 (w/o navi): $24,687 (invoice: $25,337)
    Camry XLE V6 (w/o navi): $27,633 (invoice: $26,533)
    Altima 3.5 SL (w/o navi): $28,180 (invoice: $26,880)
    Fusion V6 SEL: $20,269 (invoice: $21,269)
    Sonata Limited: $20,602 (invoice: $22,202)

    Reference area: Metro Atlanta (zip code 30360)

    Looks like Accord V6 is going below invoice and at $24.5K that looks like heck of deal to me. Of course, a bargain buyer would just skip the first 3 and go straight to the last 2.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    "Wow, sucks to be that guy."

    I guess you didn't feel sorry for me, spending $3,000 dollars on my Ford in 6 months.

    LOL sorry, I will feel bad for you too. The only expensive repair I had with my Ford was a $600 waterpump failure @ 120k (which would've been cheaper if I hadn't had it done by the dealer, and I would've had to pay that even with a Honda because they replace it when they replace the rubber band that makes the valves work). That car had the best $/fun ratio of anything I've ever seen since.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Speaking of bargains, someone just snagged a new Optima for under $12k, as reported in the Optima discussion. Some dealer had a couple at that price. That is a HECK of a deal for a very nice mid-sized car. The only problem with it IMO is that the car didn't come with ABS at that price.
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    And your 2007 Motor Trend Car of the Year is....The 2007 Toyota Camry.

    From MT: "Creating an innovative, engaging automobile with broad mainstream appeal is one of the toughest tasks facing any automaker," said Angus MacKenzie, editor in chief of Motor Trend. "The Camry is the one car rival automakers all wish they could build. It offers something for nearly everyone--performance, efficiency, and roominess--at a price point most Americans can afford."

    2007 Car of the Year awarded to Toyota CamryMacKenzie added, "Toyota offers the Camry with a regular four cylinder engine, or a sporty V-6 that enables it to hit 60 mph in just six seconds - that's about as fast as a V-8 musclecar from the '60s and '70s. Buyers looking for ultimate fuel economy can choose the Camry Hybrid, which uses the same innovative hybrid powertrain technology as Toyota's Prius to save gas."

    Also, on the Accord discussion, all I can tell you is that here in the Mid-Atlantic, I had my choice of Accord EX V6's in every color for under $24k when I was buying this summer. I had multiple offers for $23,300 and I went through the process at one dealer so I know its legit.

    I understand there are a few people on here who say they can't get that. Have they really, really tried? If they have and they can't, fine--but you must live in low volume area where every car is going to cost more (not just the Accord).

    I have no idea why people want to insist these cars cost more than they do. Fact is, the Accord EX V6 cost less than the Impala LTZ or the LaCrosse CXL. We can all judge which is worth more (I think its not even close), but it is what it is.

    And I didn't even buy an Accord, so its not like I'm some kind of Honda schill--I ended up comparing Hybrids and liked the Camry Hybrid better than the Accord Hybrid.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    At 12K who cares if it has ABS or not? You make your move and take your chances.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    And here are some of the competitors (not the Fusion, Sonata and Accord were not eligible this year):

    Among competitors for Car of the Year were the Chrysler Sebring, Saturn Aura, Nissan Altima, Kia Rondo, Honda Fit, Mercedes-Benz S Class, Volvo C70 T5 and the Volkswagen Rabbit.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Why should my requirements for safety features in a car depend on how good a deal I can get? Is my family's safety and my own safety suddenly less important because I can save a few bucks?
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Is there a link to this article!?

    ~alpha
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Apparently, you're not the only one who likes the TCH better than the HAH; edmunds.com editor's blog posts show repeated contempt for the Accord, going as far to call it 'A Fat Suit a Car'. Plus, it sells quite poorly, in contrast to the Camry. That said, the Accord EX V6 is probably the best all-around value right now in the midsize sedan market, given its performance, features, safety (though I really wish it didn't score only 'Marginal' in side structure in the IIHS - a strong safety cage is a big deal for a midsizer, in my book).

    ~alpha
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Click me!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    That's up to you decide, not me. Some people might jump on it, others not.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Accord EX V6 is a fine car, but if $23-24k is the best price available, I'd put the Sonata Limited at $19-20k (best price) at the top of the mid-sized value list right now. $4-5000 is a lot of money in my (pocket)book.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You are absolutely right.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the TCH a hybrid simply because it can run on electric power only, the HAH a more economical V6 with DOD (displacement on demand) and an electric motor - not a true hybrid by most definitions. Nissan is apparently coming out with an Altima 4 cyl hybrid using Toyota's technologies not Honda's. Adding all that weight (batteries, motors) has to take some of that 'edge' off an otherwise well balanced (and good handling) car. The press will look at the true hybrids and justify the generally poor handling and sacrifices in drivability against the FE. But, make it the HAH with the kind of power it has, and then they want a 'sports sedan' again. The Prius, if you've ever driven one, is, at best, like driving a refrigerator - not something for people that actually enjoy driving.
    IMPO, the immediate future is not in hybrids anyway - it is in diesels!
    Doesn't surprise me that the Camry would get COY - a large part of that award is based on how 'significant' the car is relative to others. The Camry at 400,000 copies/year, is certainly significant - almost regardless of how good or bad it is. Anybody out there want to make a side bet on next year's winner - I'll take the 08 Accord - if the redesign makes it - for the same reasons!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Nooooooooo!

    I didn't have my Motor Trend yet, and planned on reading it to find out the winner (like the climax of a movie). Oh well.

    Also, on the Accord discussion, all I can tell you is that here in the Mid-Atlantic, I had my choice of Accord EX V6's in every color for under $24k when I was buying this summer. I had multiple offers for $23,300 and I went through the process at one dealer so I know its legit.

    See scape, it isn't just me who can find these prices. Trying to make me look bad or saying I have no credibility isn't a very mature thing to do when proper research hasn't been done.
  • cxccxc Member Posts: 122
    I understand that you do not like anyone saying that Toyota 2GR V6 is two generations behind BMW I6. You may say posts from others "foolish" or “silly”. However, the following remains unchanged regardless of whatever you said and will say.

    1. BMW I6 used Valvetronic that was introduced about 20 years ago by BMW. Valvetronic is really CVVT (Continuous variable valve timing) + CVVL (Continuous variable valve lifting). Toyota called Valvetronic as “VVTL”. Toyota 2GR V6 uses CVVT, not VVTL. This makes Toyota 2GR V6 one generation behind the current BMW I6.

    2. BMW VANOS used in BMW I6 was introduced about 13 years ago. This makes Toyota 2GR V6 two generations behind the current BMW I6.

    As consumers, we had better to know what we pay for and are not fooled by car manufactures.
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Sorry for ruining the surprise--I saw it on CNN this morning, and since then its been just about everywhere so you probbly would have run into it anyway!

    I think you MIGHT have a point on the Prius, but not he Camry Hybrid. Read most anything that has been written on it (C/D, CR, MT, whatever you want)--they'll all tell you the Camry Hybrid makes almost no sacrifices whatsoever. Take a look at the Road and Track data panel: http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0605_hybrids_data_panel.pdf

    We're talking 7.3 seconds to 60, a .81g slalom run, and observed mileage of 37.3 mpg. I've got 10k behind the wheel of this car, trust me, handling is excellent, power is great, its got plenty of passing power, and features wise is way upmarket (440 watt JBL 6 disc sound system standard, bluetooth standard, etc).

    The only real sacrifice is trunk space--the battery does take up some space. Some may say price, I'm not so sure. The Hybrid is optioned closer to the XLE than the LE, and of course its faster than the 4 cyl--and its priced between the 4 cyl and V6s. If you were able to get the tax credit like I did, it wipes that price difference out. I'm on pace for 22-24k miles a year, so the fuel savings for me are significant also.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    You do have a point on the VANOS and Valvetronic and I was wrong to call your post foolish, for that I apologize.

    However, I'll make several corrections regarding the VANOS and Valvetronic technology:

    BMW's VANOS technology is essentially the same as Toyota's VVTi and double VANOS is the counterpart of the duel VVTi which both of them vary the inlet and exhaust.

    BMW introduced the Valvetronic with the E46 316ti which I believed was in the late 90s or early 00s. Whatever the year is it's definitely NOT 20 years ago like you have stated. The closest counterpart to the Valvetronic is likely Honda's iVTEC and Toyota's VVTLi which controls both the timing and lifting. The Valvetronic is truly a remarkable technology which use a combination of hardware and software to eliminate the need for a conventional throttle mechanism.

    You are also correct that the 2GR-FSE has only the duel VVTi but not the VVTLi but BMW's I6 does utilize the Valvetronic. However, I would still not consider the 2GR as "2 generations behind BMW's I6" like you have stated. If that's the case, how can it be selected as the top 10 engines for the year 2006?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,295
    so do i, but there are speed limits, etc...
    i prefer the sounds of a v8, myself.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Prius, if you've ever driven one, is, at best, like driving a refrigerator - not something for people that actually enjoy driving.

    Careful cap'n...

    At 35-40,000 miles annually I actually prefer driving to all other forms of transport, within reason. The Prius is a much better vehicle for driving, my comfort, economy and yes - handling than any of the prior 4c Camry's I've had ( '89, '93, '97, '00 ). It's certainly no where near as powerful nor as tight as modern V6's but I've always avoided buying/driving V6's.

    This, like styling, is a very subjective point. In my daily driving over the last 25+ years ( 30-40,000 mi annually ) I've rarely been able to get above 65 mph at any time ( 15 yrs of commuting into and out of NYC and 10 yrs of riding rural highways with a trooper in my taillights and his gun set at 64 ).
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    I've rarely been able to get above 65 mph at any time ( 15 yrs of commuting into and out of NYC and 10 yrs of riding rural highways with a trooper in my taillights and his gun set at 64 ).

    Wow ! Here in Atlanta if you're going 64 you'll get run over! Speed limit on the Perimeter is 55mph. In essence the fast lane speed limit is about 80, but most of the time you'll be passed on the right if you're doing a steady 80 in the fast lane.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    >To show you don't understand financial responsibility????

    This is a constant refrain in your posts. Again, why is your value heirarchy the only correct one?

    What if the price doesn't matter at all or not that much? What if the buyer just wants what he/she wants? How is that showing a lack of financial repsponsibility?

    The other three items are also just your personal opinions, so neither you nor the poster are wrong or right?

    Why are you bothering to post this type of comment? Is there some kind of purpose?

    Everyone knows everything here is opinion, personal, even yours... :P

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Same thing (or worse) in South Florida. An out and out race track. Flat, straight, wide interstates. You see 80 year olds passing you going 90+.

    Atlanta is anarchy on the highway. Ga 400 is an absolute drag strip. Especially where it descends down to the Chattahoochee River. You got people passing you in the slow lanes even if you're going 85mph.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Along I80 and Rte 3 into NYC from mid-NJ there is about 10 min of 55-70 and 1-3 hours of 20 mph.

    Here in SE VA/ NE NC the roads are empty at night on the way home. Me and 4 troopers/deputies. 65 is a $175 ticket and 75 is grounds for license revocation. ( there is one single route from the NE quarter of the US to the Outer Banks. Heavily patrolled is understating the situation )

    Now go west on I64 or N/S on I95 and yep 75-85 is standard.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "No, because Honda and Toyota have years of Brand Equity built up which allows them to charge more for their cars than other automakers. "

    True, for now. But its slowly but surely eroding over time. As consumers get smarter and realize they don't have to pay extra $$ for a reliable and quality built vehicle. What then for Honda/Toyota?
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "I think the Hyundai give-away pricing spooks people."

    I have to ask why? Ever thought maybe Honda/Toyota just plain ask too much for thier vehicles? Ever thought they know they have the "reputation" and can soak buyers with high prices? Hyundia has to extablish a reputation, just like Ford needs to rebuild its reputation. The fact is many Honda/Toyota owners/buyers will never, ever believe another car compay will ever build a vehicle as well as Honda/Toyota. Motor Trend recently gave the Camry an award for I believe it was Car of the Year. Saying the Camry was "affordable" to its market segment? I blasted a mail to Motor Trend asking how the Camry was affordable when its price upwards of $4,000 more!!?? when comparing other vehicles like optioned. I sent price comparisons from the internet. I cannot wait to see if I get a response. This is just another case of a large mag following the sales leader and making it easy on themselves, protecting thier income. :shades:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    " paid $25,000 for my EX V6 (no nav, I can read a map thanks), and I would do it again tomorrow. That's what is important. "

    Well then, you paid $2,000 dollars more than I did for my car like optioned. And if your paying interest on your load of %3.9 add that too! ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Accord EX V6 (w/o navi): $24,687 (invoice: $25,337)
    Camry XLE V6 (w/o navi): $27,633 (invoice: $26,533)
    Altima 3.5 SL (w/o navi): $28,180 (invoice: $26,880)
    Fusion V6 SEL: $20,269 (invoice: $21,269)
    Sonata Limited: $20,602 (invoice: $22,202)

    Reference area: Metro Atlanta (zip code 30360)

    Looks like Accord V6 is going below invoice and at $24.5K that looks like heck of deal to me. Of course, a bargain buyer would just skip the first 3 and go straight to the last 2. "

    What do you mean by "Bargain buyer"? Are you saying all people that buy a Fusion/Sonata cannot afford an Accord/Camry?? I make enough money to probably buy a BMW but I don't because I invest my money into my 401K and real estate. I see where this stigma really comes from now. I bought a Ford Fusion SEL V6 loaded with every option available about 8 months ago now. I enjoy driving this car. It is confident, quiet, quality built, fit and finish are tops. I don't regret my purchase either. I call myself a smart buyer, someone who doesn't feel the need to follow all the other lemmings to the Honda/Toyota dealer.. :P
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    But its slowly but surely eroding over time. As consumers get smarter and realize they don't have to pay extra $$ for a reliable and quality built vehicle.

    Please tell me when this is going to happen? Can you see into the future? Since Toyota and Honda sales go UP every year, not DOWN. How long will it take Nostradamus? Get back to me in 5 years, if you still have your Fusion by then.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Kind of funny how you believe the Honda supporter, ya think?

    I have a friend who is a manager at a Honda dealership. These prices of $23,000 for a loaded EX-V6 Accord with everything but Nav.. he laughs. He won't give me a direct price he buys them from Honda for. He just smiles and says "You know all Honda dealers buy the cars from Honda Motor for the same price. This price of $23,000 or even $23,500 doesn't give the dealership enough profit to keep the doors open. How many do you think a dealer is going to let go for that price? " "Don't believe everything you read on the internet". If Honda sold EX-V6 Accords for $23-24K.. don't you think the internet pricing would also reflet so?
    Give me your e-mail address. This weekend I will send you the Honda dealerships in my region and thier advertised prices for their Honda Accords. They will only list 1 (ONE) at this price also... :shades:
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I cannot get over how defensive everyone is of their purchase decisions. I don't quite get the need for the external validation. If you bought something and its meeting your needs and criteria, either based on budget, ride quality (how ever you define that for your needs), interior space, etc.
    Its amazing how caught up in this people get, unless some people are just arguing for the sake of arguing or are just here to stir the pot.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Its happening evertime you see a Fusion/Milan/Sonata/G6/Impala/Altima/Legacy on the road! These people made a CHOICE to NOT buy an Accord/Camry.. ;) Not to follow the lemmings! :P
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    > I call myself a smart buyer, someone who doesn't feel the need to follow all the other lemmings to the Honda/Toyota dealer..

    Well said. I also can pick any car I want and have picked what I think is prudent and economical over many years of operation in past purchases. I also picked what drove well and had LOTS of room inside.

    I'm starting to look at what I would replace one car with another or add to the fleet to make room for a new driver in a year. The Sonata looks like a good choice if I can get a car without the expensive-to-replace wheels/tires. I look at the options required and available in different packages. I'd rather have the money in one of the mutual funds or a new house than in a car by paying extra for one beyond what I personally _want_.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Its happening evertime you see a Fusion/Milan/Sonata/G6/Impala/Altima/Legacy on the road! These people made a CHOICE to NOT buy an Accord/Camry.. ;) Not to follow the lemmings! :P "

    It's going to be a looooooong time before Honda or Toyota acts like a lemming. With Toyota selling 400,000 vehicles a year, probably twice as many as the bunch you just mentioned combined, they are going strong.
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    I'd rather spend the $2000 more and get the better car.

    Ford can't seem to even put a decent shifter in it's great Fusion. D or L. That's it. Very weak.

    How about a hood that shuts all the way? The ones I checked out looked like the hood was ajar even when slammed shut.

    Unrefined interior compared to the Accord. No thanks. "Why settle when you can Select?"
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Fusion/Milan/Sonata/G6/Impala/Altima/Legacy on the road!

    They are obviously not switching from Accord/Camry, because the sales numbers are still increasing each year. More are switching to Accord/Camry, than switching away from.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I noticed the same thing about the hood not appearing to be shut correctly, even when slammed shut. When somebody checks out a car they lift the hood and check out the engine. Then you semi-slam it down and await that 'THUD'. Man ! If you don't get that warm and fuzzy right then (cause the hood doesn't shut solidly) you're done. See ya.

    Turned me right off. Seems like an easy fix. Fix it.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well said. But I've learned over many years to try not to assume too much about why people do or say certain things. Some people may tout a particular car or brand because they seek external validation. But others may just want to tell the world about their positive experience with a car, especially if they feel there are common misconceptions about it.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I have no idea what you're talking about. There's nothing wrong with the hood.
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    I'm sorry, I'm calling you out on that. I'm not an idiot consumer. I barely even had to do anything to have Honda dealers falling all over themselves to sell me an Accord EX-V6s at that price.

    I've personally never found internet pricing to be accurate on a site like Edmunds. I've always beaten that, usually be a lot. So I really don't know. I do know that Honda is aggressively pricing Accords right now because its the only way to move their product up against the 07 Camry, just like Toyota was doing with their 06 Camry. That will change when they have a new model Accord and they know that.

    You should know as well as I do (if you've ever read any of the Edmunds guides at least) about the concept of a loss leader--dealership don't make most of their profit from selling new cars, they get them from used cars and from service. Selling somebody a new car at a little bit of a loss is not necc. a bad strategy if you can get their decent trade and/or get them into your service department. That's why dealers do it.

    Maybe your friend doesn't or doesn't have to. But in the two metro areas that I am familiar with the car market (Boston and Washington), Honda dealers are now aggressively pricing Accords under invoice (and there are rebates) for anybody who tries to get a good deal. That did not used to be case on these cars, but they are at the end of their cycle and that's just business.

    So, in summary, YES, dealers will absolutely sell at that price. They make their profit on other ways, and right now Honda dealers are seeing strong money on Civics which is taking care of business anyway.

    And please, can we stop with the insults to Camry and Accord buyers? I'm not a lemming. I've never been a lemming. Just knock it off. I made a choice for reasons I've outlined, but some people just can't accept that there are legitimate reasons for buying a Camry or an Accord.

    CLEARLY, Honda and Toyota are still taking buyers from others. There is zero evidence to suggest "more and more" consumers are not heading to Camry and Accord. In fact, there is direct contrary evidence, as the 07 Camry stays on a 450k car pace. What's even more remarkable is that the transaction price is so solid. The public has spoken on the new Camry, and they're in the process of making it the most successful new model launch EVER.

    Sorry that some people don't like it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Saying the Camry was "affordable" to its market segment? I blasted a mail to Motor Trend asking how the Camry was affordable when its price upwards of $4,000 more!!?? when comparing other vehicles like optioned. I sent price comparisons from the internet. I cannot wait to see if I get a response

    You misread their statement. This is a huge mistake that many brand's marketers are making. The article didn't say it was the most affordable of the midsize autos, obviously it is not. But to nearly 1 Million buyers each year (!!! ) the Camry and Accord are very affordable. How is this fact missed by so many?

    The numbers speak for themselves, and they're growing. Lot's of people aren't paying attention. Frankly, if I haddn't just get purchased the Prius I'd have gotten my 5th 4c Camry at about $20500.... or maybe for the additonal features the TCH at about $26500. Neither one is going to affect my lifestyle one way or another. Both are affordable, as is the Accord and the Altima.

    To harp on them not being affordable is to be blind to the real state of the American buying public, then specifically to the state of the repeat buyers of Accords and Camry's.

    With a significant trade-in value even after 5-7 yrs the actual 'acquisition cost' of these new vehicles is nowhere near the transaction price. Getting a new Camry for under $15,000 is very affordable for most buyers.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Its happening evertime you see a Fusion/Milan/Sonata/G6/Impala/Altima/Legacy on the road! These people made a CHOICE to NOT buy an Accord/Camry.. Not to follow the lemmings!

    Another view: This market is HUGE and varied. It is not homogeneous. There is plenty of room here for ALL the Hyundais at $18-19K, ALL the Fulans and Malifu's at $20-22K and ALL the CamCords at $23-26K.

    This midsized market is also EXPANDING so Hyundai needs extra capacity ( it's new plant ). Toyota need extra capacity ( the Subie plant ). Yes when you see others driving the Fulans and Sonatas they are not driving CamCords. But the fact is that no single supplier can supply all these buyers even if every single buyer was the same. No single manufacturer has enough capacity. Thus it only makes sense that many people drive other vehicles. Camry and Accord buyers are limited to about 900,000 annually. There are over 2 million new buyers each year. Some one has to sell them.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    as it should, if your concern is resale values and you are one of the many folks that prefer to change rides every 3 to 5 years. Discounts up front almost always equals discounts at 'trade-in' time, minimizing or possibly even negating those initial savings.

    BUT
    Understand that Hyundai is trying its hardest to live down a reputation, and is on a merciless (because they don't seem to care how much money they lose doing it) campaign to put as many American type butts in one of their cars as possible - one of the reasons why you see so many Sonatas at the airports. And the reasons why they are offering substantial discounts on the Sonatas/Santa Fes/Azeras, vehicles that are good enough that logically they shouldn't have to.

    From a marketing perspective Hyundai has bypassed the 'American' brands and has firmly set its sights on the more quality conscious Toyota/Honda/Nissan buyer. There are a million vehicles plus per year there! It should work from them in time, if the quality improvements prove out.

    IMO, the unquestioned 'value' leader of this group has to be the Sonata V6 and a very logical choice especially if you normally keep a car into 6 digits. The folks that are concerned about a stigma 'of having a Hyundai in the garage' need to learn about wry smiles!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    For more than two years I've noticed more Sonatas and other Hyundais and Kias in our area driven by older, more value and quality conscious people. These are folks who normally would be driving Camry, Accord, Buick, Impalas, IMHO.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Probably quite true, and in addition they often have no one to impress nor the desire to do so.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,146
    I left out Crown Vics from the list of common rides along with the clones Mercury and Lincoln of the Crown Vic.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Thanks for stepping in in my absence. I'm headed to the beach in my overpriced Accord for the weekend, but might carry my laptop to check in with y'all.

    A Happy Thanksgiving to all! :)

    P.S. - You'll always fight a losing battle when trying to convince people that you didn't necessarily make the wrong decision, when they made a different one, one that they perceive is correct. I try to say we can both be right, but many won't listen to that logic.

    Thegrad
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Accord EX V6 (w/o navi): $24,687 (invoice: $25,337)
    Camry XLE V6 (w/o navi): $27,633 (invoice: $26,533)
    Altima 3.5 SL (w/o navi): $28,180 (invoice: $26,880)
    Fusion V6 SEL: $20,269 (invoice: $21,269)
    Sonata Limited: $20,602 (invoice: $22,202)

    Reference area: Metro Atlanta (zip code 30360)
    ****
    Mercury Grand Marquis Ultimate(2006) - every option you can possibly get: $26,320
    LaCrosse CXS(2006):$24,804(added stability control as "standard", since it comes on most of the competition)
    (same zip code - 30360)

    Volvo S60 T5
    http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB60VOC171B0&restor- e=false
    (used my local zip code - Los Angeles - appears to be a regional inventive?)
    $26,400

    On the Marquis I literally checked everyting I possibly could, including the dual exhaust, the chrome wheels, the full size spare, and all the bling I could find. Something's not right with the pricing of the imports when you can get silly with a full-size car with a V8 engine and still cost less money.

    The CXS? 240HP and maximum torque at *2000* rpm. Not 3800 or 4600 or whatever. It develops about 70-80% maximum at about 1400-1600, so it pulls like a diesel. Just without the slowness or smell. The Accord V6 feels positively old-school stodgy in city traffic, and the Camry as well. They take a long time to wind up and by then... oops have to stop lest I park in the guy in front of me's trunk. The CXS was the second GM 6 cylinder car I've driven in 20 years that had no bottom-end lag or roll-on mush.(a Buick Grand National being the other - wow that was a great car)

    Like V8 driveabilty but with V6 cost and economy? Check this out.

    Lastly - um.. WHA? This is the #1 current choice in my book. It's a lot of car for the money, and well, for the next year or two, still a Swedish Volvo design(last one before Ford completely takes over - based on the old Volvo 850). So it has the same feel and luxury without "bling" that most of us want or would desire. And it's um.. yeah.. fast. Manual tansmission is available.(grin).

    Camry V6 or S60... Yeah - put your eyes back in their sockets ;) Not really much of a contest at all.
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