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Can hybrids be "performance" vehicles?
We're still in the early stages of hybrid technology, but we're already seeing vehicles like the Lexus RX400h which people are expecting both the power and mileage performance out of. That brings up the question...
Can a hybrid really be a performance vehicle?
Can a hybrid really be a performance vehicle?
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Why?
Performance is not only about high hp and torque! That is only half the equation. The other half is agility and handling. The heavy weight of hybrid technology subdues a vehicle's handling/agility. That kills the thrill of doing some exciting manuevers.
Performance diesel vehicles are not a contradiction since they are lighter . This is an explanation why BMW and Audi produce diesel sport sedans.
The funniest example of a hybrid performance vehicle is a Honda Accord Hybrid.
It is heavy, front wheel drive, not nimble and no manual---all features that contradict what a performance sport sedan should be!
However, if we consider the mentality of the current marketplace (and probable future marketplace), buyers focus on the numbers. "Mileage" junkies focus on the EPA numbers. "Performance" junkies focus on hp numbers. I can't tell you how many times over in the "Ody vs. Sienna" thread that the pro-Honda folks kept focusing in on the Ody hp advantage while completely ignoring the Sienna 400 lb weight advantage. Weight just isn't on the radar screen; hp numbers are.
So, from a future hybrid stand, does this mean that future hybrids may have fewer and lighter batteries, sacrificing energy capacity for lighter weight? Possibly; lighter and fewer batteries could also cut down on the cost (both up front and at replacement) as well as aid in packaging. The downside would be that the ICE would be relied on to a greater extent in stop and go traffic.
Sudden thought... if hybrid "sports cars" did appear on the scene, how long do you think it would be before people were racing them?
Seriously, it's going to take some kind of radical breakthrough in battery technology or the discovery of some alternate means of supplementing the gasoline engine before we get true performance hybrids, isn't it??
So my question is: What is the point of performance-hybrids?
My next car will be a uncompromised benchmark car. It will either be a benchmark fuel miser(diesel or hybrid) or a benchmark performance car. Certainly not a hybrid performance car:You end up getting the worst of both worlds.
IMO a good fuel miser would be a Prius/VW Jetta TDI. I would prefer the Prius because most my driving is in the city.
Performance--the new 06 BMW 3 series. Also it has 13% improved fuel consumption compare to the 05 model. Not bad! BUT fuel economy is not the reason I would buy such a vehicle.
Whether true economy or sporting dynamics are the objective, cost remains the issue.
If you drive your hybrid very gently you may recover the extra cost of the hybrid technology sometime near the end of the vehicles' life expectancy through fuel cost savings. If you drive it for performance, you'll never get that extra money back because your mileage won't increase much.
I'd agree that at the moment, price is a big factor. My personal opinion is that the premium you pay for the current hybrid offerings (vs the non-hybrid version of the same vehicle) is simply too high a cost. I can imagine what the first hybrid "sport" offerings are going to try and pry out of my wallet!
That being said, time SHOULD bring the cost of all this down.
And maybe it's just a matter of perspective too. Wouldn't a race between evenly matched hybrid vehicles have just as much "racing" in it as a race between evenly matched NASCAR vehicles? Certainly would be less raw power involved, and the vehicles couldn't compete with each other, but then again, a great high school football game is still a great game even though the worst NFL team would crush either squad involved!
Personally, any 'performance' car I buy will have 3 pedals.
OTOH.......consider this for street performance cars: the new Mustang GT has 300hp, the new GTO has 400hp. But what % of the time does the car actually DELIVER this much power? Very little. So, with a hybrid, the gas engine could deliver somewhat less power (better for economy) for the majority of the time that the engine is just loafing, yet be able to offer short bursts of high performance through the hybrid powertrain.
I was wrong and you are absolutely correct. I knew the Prius was only available CVT and that the HCH/Insight were available CVT; and made the giant assumption that they were ONLY available as CVT.
I guess it is all about marketing!
Combine the following two points below together and Toyota/Honda begin to see $$$$ signs:
1)Higher profit margins for performance hybrids than what can be earned on a Prius/Civic
2) The Horsepower addiction of North Americans!
If you add the two points above together is it any wonder that Toyota/Honda will market their performance/hybrids as if it can be driven like a NASCAR car and consume gas like a Insight? That as most forum members know is a load of bunk
Everytime I read a review about the Hybrid Accord or the hybrid SUVs from Toyota there seems to be a consistent conclusion. If you drive the performance hybrid at a gradual pace like your Great-Aunt Esther would, then you may get sensational gas mileage. Otherwise forget it!
So back to my question: Why bother buying a performance hybrid?? :confuse:
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Your first question was why is it that one hears about performance as much as economy in reference to new hybrids?
That one's easy to answer: because new hybrids are NOT all about maximizing economy; they are about meeting the performance expectations of Americans AND providing somewhat better economy. Why is this? Because a vehicle with an extremely heavy emphasis on economy in lieu of economy mixed w/ performance sells poorly in the US. Most American's image (rightly or wrongly) of 'hybrids' is some dinky little tin can puttering along in the slow lane driven by some eco-dweed w/ a 'Save the Whales' bumper sticker. This is an image that the automakers are anxious to overcome (obviously); therefore, they will manufacture vehicles which are still capable of good performance and/or still loaded to the gills with all the creature comforts of home AND which are capable of somewhat better mileage than a non-hybrid version of the same vehicle.
Your second question is "Why bother buying a performance hybrid??"
Not sure how to answer that since MY idea of a 'performance' hybrid is likely different from yours. In my view, there is currently no such thing as a 'performance' hybrid on the market (ie. a vehicle with NO expectation of increased economy but an increase in performance ONLY).
I agree, why bother. Unless the added performance is a big plus for you. The RX400h & HAH are not doing real great on the mileage expected. I think if a person researched the hybrids before buying they would know that the mileage claims are not possible if you drive the car as performance cars are designed to be driven. If you want a fast Accord you would be way ahead of the game getting a V6 and beefing it up. Then you don't have all the added weight and complexity to cause you grief 5 years down the road. The only motive I see is feeling green, while you continue to fill OPEC bank accounts.
Careful there.......that statement WAS TRUE a couple of months ago, but right now, with warmer weather, break-in time, and user education, those numbers are improving.
One driver got 48.1 MPG on a hwy trip in an HAH, and over at our favorite unmentionable site for hybrid info, about 38% of the HAH drivers are reporting EPA or better, with that number getting higher day by day.
Another driver reported 38 MPG for a hwy trip in his RX400h.
So it's NOT the technology that is the problem - it's the drivers and their particular circumstances that are dictating the MPG received.
Another RX400h owner:
"Well I've had my 400h for two weeks now and have already taken a decent road trip from SF to Oregon and I'm averaging between 26-27 on every tank."
So getting that much from a "performance" 4500 pound crossover SUV is pretty darn good.
But not only are they flawed in terms of gas efficiency but they are also flawed in being a performance vehicle. As I mentioned previous a good performance car should have superb handling/agility. The cumbersome weight of hybrid is definitey a killer in terms of handling.
Unless hybrid technology involves less weight---the best alternative for gas efficeint perfromance vehicles would be turbo-diesel, not hybrid!
there is still a long way to go in hybrid technology before we can call performance/hybrids "Green".
That is where we disagree. The vehicle does not do what it is expected to do. Give great performance AND good mileage. You have to drive like a grandma to get close to the actual EPA. Most people are not interested in hypermiling. They want to just jump in the car and go. The RX400 & HAH have the speed they expected, just not the mileage. I thought your 38% was interesting, that means 62% are NOT getting EPA. My calculations are that less than 13% are getting the EPA 32 MPG and 75% are getting less than if they had bought the Accord EX 4 cylinder for $10k less. The HAH is a sales flop and I believe the RX400h will also be less popular than Lexus expected. When they can buy the same vehicle with all the doodads for $10k less they are going to take another look and say NO WAY! They will probably get a better handling CUV without the added 500 pounds. Same goes for the HAH, buy the EX V6 and hop it up with a 6 speed manual as some have already done. When the automakers build a hybrid that does not sacrifice driveability to get good mileage they will have accomplished something. They should have spent the money perfecting the original 3 hybrids.
In NONE of these vehicles was 'handling' the performance trait either maintained or accentuated though 'hybridization'. In my mind, NONE of these vehicles even counts as a 'performance' hybrid.
I think the only effort being made is to offer the same (perhaps slightly better) straight-line performance while offering somewhat better economy. Do they "fulfill the goal of gas efficiency"? I dunno. I imagine that will vary from owner to owner and you would have to find out what THEIR 'gas efficiency goal' was. Are current performance/hybrids "green". Depends on your definition of 'green' ; even the Insight release SOME pollutants. I would say the hybrid versions are at least "greenER".
Is handling an integral part of performance? Absolutely; I agree 110% with you there. Are there simpler, lighter ways to gain hp which would not adversely impact handling? Yes, again. Much cheaper ways too. Are there ways to boost power output AND provide better gas mileage at the same time? Ummmmmmm, sounds like the job for a hybrid to me....
But at what price? Is it worth the extra $$$$? I think it is a joke that the media refers to such SUVs as green vehicles
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When I refer to hybrid performance I refer to what I read in the media. I dont know what media sources you use but every time I read about a hybrid accord I keep on seeing the words "performance vehicle".
Even the upcoming Lexus GS460h is not my definition of a performance vehicle. Too cumbersome! But the media may define the GS460H quite differently!
No, here is the ONLY scenario in which "the vehicle does not do what it is expected to do":
WHEN NONE OF THE VEHICLES ACHIEVE ANYWHERE NEAR EPA.
That is the ONLY scenario when you can CORRECTLY state that "the vehicle does not do what it says it can do."
Complaining about yourself receiving lower MPG when you clearly know that other people are getting better MPG than you are is similar to complaining about these things:
1. I bought a football, but can throw it only 40 yards, but my neighbor can throw it 60 yards. What's wrong with my football?
2. My son can hit a baseball 400 feet, but my nephew can only hit it 300 feet - must be a bad baseball.
3. Like going to the shooting range with a nice, expensive shotgun and complaining because the guy next to you has a cheaper gun but he hit more skeets !!!
It's NOT THE TECHNOLOGY that is broken. It's the drivers not using the vehicle to it's max potential due to:
1. short trips in unwarmed engines
2. break-in period not finished (more engine friction)
3. bad habits like accelerating too hard when not really necessary
4. not using the instrumentation in the vehicle to maximize the mpg
5. USERS LEARNING HOW TO DRIVE FOR MAX MPG
That last one is the key thing. My first tank was 38.4 in my HCH because I did not know how to drive it for max mpg. Now I DO know those things, and my 52.4 MPG over my last six tanks shows that.
Like I correctly said back in December when Gary was pointing out how few Accord Hybrid drivers were getting close to EPA:
"Give the drivers a few months on the road, with warmer temps, driver education, and broken in engines, and the results will improve."
I was correct about the HAH and I will again be correct about the RX400H. They WITHOUT A DOUBT will improve. Just watch.
You can't get around physics 101.
What I like about the HAH concept is that you can drive it sensibly and learn how to drive for efficiency and get around its EPA numbers.
But when you like alot of impressive power for quick bursts it's there for you.
Someone posted:
"You have to drive like a grandma to get close to the actual EPA. Most people are not interested in hypermiling."
If -like a grand ma- means around a posted speed limit and driving sensibly then your statement is correct. My HCH is certainly not a performance car but gets EPA if driven with common (or uncommon) sense.
From what I hear you don't have to hyper mile in a HAH for great results, but I'd sure like to see the figures from people who do.
What is a performance vehicle anyway? I'd say this is subject to personal interpretation.
I'm used to my HCH so a HAH would be performance in my case.
Some here have pointed out other requirements.
People may require mirrors of NASCAR, while others might have Indy 500 in mind.
You can't get around physics 101."
The rules of physics 101 dictates that weight provides more friction during motion!
In general. turbodiesels handle better than hybrids! The law of physics boils this down to weight.
What I like about the HAH concept is that you can drive it sensibly and learn how to drive for efficiency and get around its EPA numbers.
I agree fully with your statement. A hybrid is meant for sensible driving! Performance defeats its main purpose which is fuel efficiency!
Hybrids show there strengths during sensible city driving.Turbo-diesels strengths are evident during perforance/highway driving! That is why I believe turbo diesels are superior to hybids in terms of fuel efficient performance/handling.
Is this now a diesel vs hybrid thread or are you referring to a hybrid diesel?
I don't know of any hybrid diesels but I do know of the HAH, which is built for improved performance.
If there was a hybrid diesel I'd bet you wouldn't get near the EPA if you drove it to consume its fuel, no matter what the weight.
That was my earlier point. Drive it "for performance" much of the time and never see great economy.
I cant argue for hybrid diesels because very few are on the road( if any?)
Let's take it to another thread.
"Performance defeats its main purpose which is fuel efficiency!"
No, it doesn't.
If a particular model of a car line can deliver a certain economy, and it's hybrid sibling can deliver better economy and faster acceleration which has better performance?
My point is not to have a diesel vs. hybrid argument, but to argue that the complexity and expense of hybrid technology as it is today is not the most effective means to improve fuel efficient performance. Turbodiesels are far more effective!
When hybrid technology improves and becomes lighter, then my turbodiesel argument may no longer hold as much weight.
Thanks!
I agree. I think a large part of the Prius popularity is its unique styling. You look at it and immediately notice it's "different". I think a lot of people are paying the "hybrid premium" on the Prius to get that uniqueness as much (or more) than for it's other benefits. How better to demonstrate your "greeness"? The rest of the hybrid crop, however, are designed NOT to stand out. It's very difficult to tell them apart from the non-hyrid versions. At this point with the technology still being so expensive, they should be providing more stand-out styling to get people to pay the premium. Otherwise, people won't pay it.
Call it shallow, but style is a big reason why people pick one car over another.
I will abide by the rules.
To reduce transportation fuel consumption, we need vehicles that satisfy the buyer's needs and expectations for utility and performance while using less fuel. You accomplish that by providing vehicles of equal or better performance and utility that happen to be more efficient as well. 25 mpg may not seem extraordinary, but if the vehicle that it replaced only managed 20, it's a substantial improvement. The challenge is to provide that improvement at a price that is marketable.
Since the parallel hybrid offers the potential to augment the IC engine's peak output as well as improve cycle efficiency, improved power AND fuel economy are possible if the amount of improvement in both are compromized. Granted, there will be increased mass, all other things being equal, and that brings additional design challenges, but they are not insurmountable. The Honda hybrid system, for example installs the electric motor in lieu of the flywheel with little consequence to space or mass while allowing a conventional clutch and manual transmission. Only the battery is problematic, but if you're not trying to make an EV out of your hybrid, it needn't be overly large to satisfy the objectives of energy recovery and intermittent peak output. So a performance hybrid is certainly a possibility if that is the design objective.
Imagine, for instance, an S2000 like vehicle with the original 2.0L engine using the electric drive to augment not only peak power but low rpm torque as well (obviating the "need" for the 2.2L engine). Perhaps the batteries could be accommodated as tubular assemblies nestled in thickened structural door sills. The increased mass would be low and centered fore-aft and more than offset by the electric drive. Of course there would be some compromises (the presumably heavier flywheel comes to mind), but however it may be driven, it could conceivably provide similar or better performance AND better economy than the present S2000 driven similarly. That sounds like a performance hybrid to me.
My point on the RX400h sales is speculative, based on the fact that many that were told they were going to have a long wait to get their RX400h, have already gotten them. Does that mean they brought the whole 12k presold RX400h's into the country in one big ship load? Or did many prospective buyers bail out when they realized that they could get the RX330 equally equipped for $8k-$10k less? We won't know until the sales numbers are posted. I doubt the RX400h will sell as many as the HAH. To get back on thread. I think that people that are interested in a good handling performance vehicle will not buy a hybrid. At least nothing that is on the market right now. I am waiting on the "R" class MB hybrid. That will be a good handling fast 6 passenger luxury vehicle.
In fact---if a sport convertible with fuel economy is your goal--a very humble Miata sounds like a wonderful option. Miata can be just as fun to drive if not more than the many heavier and more expensive convertibles out there.(although a Miata will not be as fast)
By the way pardon my typo on Post 40: I meant know not no! :confuse:
And since it's Friday, have a great weekend!!
Are the compromises of a "performance" hybrid worth the bother and cost? That's a different question and I don't consider the present S2000 affordable so that's academic anyway. At present, I don't consider any of the hybrids "worth" their price, but again, we're talking possibilities, not necessarily present reality.
"can a hybrid be a performance vehicle" and my answer is yes.
No disagreement, but there are better and more inexpensive ways of getting performance, even fuel efficient performance!
YOU KNOW THOSE SUPERHEROES WHO ARE ALWAYS SAVING THE PLANET?
DONT THEY USUALLY TRAVEL FAST?
and below these words are the following:
The World's First Performance Hybrid!
This ad is just a lot of bunk! Who is so gullible enough to swallow this?
Saving the Planet---Give me a break! As if driving a RX400H is equivalent to bicycling!
Dont they travel fast----This is a muscle headed interpretation of performance. Anybody who thinks performance is defined primarily by "Fast", certainly is afflicted with a tunnel vision view of performance!
Ooooooh, THAT would certainly go over well in one of the GTO threads........ :surprise: