High-End European Luxury Sedans

greenbelt · May 2005

Amen !!!

fish8 · May 2005

I am really surprised that no one has even mentioned the current status of VW brand in terms of build quality. Has anyone seen the new JD surveys? It appears that VW still needs to concentrate on product quality of it's bread and butter vehicles. I know VW states that quality is a top priority in future products, but they need to work fast. I love my VW ('04.5 Passat) and would buy another in a heartbeat, but ALLOT of folks out there won't even consider a VW because of their miserable reputation. C'mon VW...make us proud!!!!

Jaynj1 · May 2005

Does anyone know, where do they assemble A8s? When are they going to start manufacturing 2006 A8?
Thanks

merc1 · May 2005

Well there are two reasons for no one mentioning the "surveys" here. For one I don't think it is of any shock to people who like VWs. VW has been at the bottom of these surveys since day one. Secondly this group doesn't care about these surveys nearly as much as others. Diehard VW fans are just that and no survey is going to deter them. I've always believed that for some styling, design, performance and those small nuances that aren't easily described carry more weight than these yearly surveys. VW, Audi and Land Rover are proof of this.

M

paldi · May 2005

The Phaeton is being built in an assembly plant in Dresden that was constructed specifically for this car, although assembly of some of the Bentley Continental Flying Spurs will be shifted there as well. This speaks well for the quality. The suppliers are mostly the same ones as are used by MB and Audi. Assembly should be perfect, but the parts?

docnukem · May 2005

I don't doubt the quality of the plant. However, the move of Bentley is mostly due to the greater-than-expected demand for the Bentley (and possibly the underutilization by VW with less-than expected demand for the Phaeton).

paldi · May 2005

My feeling is if you have the same workers assembling both, that will be good for Phaeton quality. Same for the parts - Bentley uses the same suspension, a/c, audio, electronics, engine and transmission systems as the Phaeton, plus a lot more common parts and parts suppliers. I also understand the body platforms for both cars are manufactured at another plant nearby. They also share the same exterior paint systems - the cars are painted before they are shipped to the assembly plants in Crew and Dresden.

paldi · May 2005

I almost bought one of these, but the Phaeton has more content for less bucks. Everyone in the automotive press says Audi is wonderful. Anyone here have one? Audi is on a roll, big grill and all! Comments always welcomed! :P

blckislandguy · May 2005

I love the look and the muted, bespokeness of the Arnage. I wonder why though more new S Class prospects don't snap up used ones as their daily drivers instead of an S Class? I see lots of low mileage Arnages selling, as opposed to "listed", at probably 100K or so. Stroudman, how would you propose to sell a new S Class to a customer who had located an Arnage with say 10K on it with a sell price of 100K?

brightness04 · May 2005

> I wonder why though more new S Class prospects don't snap up used ones as > their daily drivers instead of an S Class?

Time is money. To some people, cherry-picking a used car is not worth the time or anguish. That may account for a large proportion if not the majority people who are shopping $100k. I failed to convince my wife to consider a used at $35k level, twice in a row.

merc1 · May 2005

I think there might be a few reasons as to why an S-Class buyer wouldn't buy a used "Bentley". For one most might think that a Bentley would be a pain to service and maintain. Yeah Mercedes' rep has taken a beating, but they still aren't on the level of "care" that a Bentley needs. Secondly how many Bentley dealers are there in the average S-Class market? In Chicagoland there are only 3 and they're miles and miles apart. I just don't think think Bentley clicks to the "working rich" in the same way a S-Class does, imo. Especially when the Benz is a "new" car as opposed to a "used" on that still cost 100K. Something about that wouldn't appeal to me if I had 100K to drop on a car. I'd want something "new". Mercedes' are everyday cars too, I doubt if someone would drive a Bentley to the office everyday. Mercedes-Benzes for all their glamor and giga-hp models are still utilitarian when it comes to their non-AMG sedans.

Now for the group that has money to burn Bentley is all the rage. I would suspect that big drop in Mercedes CL sales is due to the Continental GT being not too much more expensive. For the average CL500 (100K) buyer 165K+ might be a stretch for some of them, but for a CL600, CL55 and of course a CL65 buyer this new Bentley Continental GT is easily within their reach.

The Continental GT is hugely popular because of its pricepoint. All the while growing up and noticing cars it was a rare even to ever see a "Bentley" and it still isn't a regular think to see an Arnage, but this Continental GT I see almost on a weekley (daily on the the weekend) basis. And not just in the burbs where I live, I've even seen them in the old neighborhood where I grew up.

Now the even bigger question will be, depending on where Bentley prices the Continental Flying Spur, is whether or not it will have the same effect on the S-Class and the new S due this time next year.

M

ffb13 · May 2005

as an owner of these types of cars ( jaguar,porsche,mb,bmw ) this is an interesting site.

my two bits...........my opinions.......

phaeton .............yesterday's news. i wanted one badly ,until i took 3 or 4 test rides..........and visited 4 or 6 dealerships ..........what a desilusionment ,... someone from vw corporate should send some of these guys to finishing school.............only one good dealer ,in conn. ,from the lot i visited
........been to the dresden factory......great .......just incredible, but the product does not live up to its billing..............
i predicted when the phaeton first came out that this factory would build something else ...... it is the bentley.
goodbye phaeton. too much car , too complicated ,and poor dealer network to support such a market niche.

bentley............great ,nice ,the car to own,but given that i travel 4 or 5 times per year from florida to the north east ,i am concerned about the lack of dealers ,and service..........(i hate the airbuses ) also, an overpriced vw lies beneath that bentley name.....now ,the arnage ,this is something else and special.........rides like an suv, but what class..........

a8...............great car ,but reliability keeps cropping up.........and still a disguised vw.....could be a great car and the a 8 is such.........but reliability ??????

mercedes.............with their downturn in quality of materials and assembly ,and the total reliance in electronics......i have stayed away ..... i still own their pinnacle car,a 1989 420sel with 240,000 miles.
and ,looking to buy another one .........best car ever made .

recently saw the S 350.................looking good..............but, there is the ls430 from lexus which is a far superior product from almost any aspect. it also beats all the S sedans ,in the usa......

bmw ......relying too much on past reputation. no longer a drivre's car.
almost got the 6 series until i looked in the trunk and found a bunch of computer parts where the spare tire should go............run flat tires can only be fixed in few places ,at a premiun, and no stock for a quick replacement...............

infinity.......got the fx , and still like it , has been great unlike the european cars that i have owned in the past and still own. great reliability over the same time period and mileage experienced with the other cars.but the new m series ,though good,.too much like the fx in ride quality,too similar .
.
but , this is the car to get for those of us who have owned bmw's in the past..........it does not have the crude but great ride of the old 635 which i kept for many years, but it is more refineed and fun.and reliable.

would buy this one over any german or british car. it has what it takes to be a driver's car.

rl...............an oversized honda accord for $50.0...................nice ride ..........but still an oversized accord...

quality -----if you read the german press ,you will note that in germany,german cars are rated way ,way lower than the japanes cars...troubling signs for the german car industry.

porsche ... the new 911 is no longer a sports car but a gt............my brother has one and i do not like the feel of the steering ....and ,the motor blew after 7,000 miles.
has been replaced under warranty..................get the 993.

seminole_kev · May 2005

Not sure what happened, but the formatting of your post is strange. Makes it difficult to read. Did you compose the message in a different editor and then paste it into the Townhall?

paldi · May 2005

ffb13 · May 2005

paldi,

i did try it. 3 times. the 2 door one ..........have not tried the 4 door.

liked it. loved it.just great looks and feel,

but ,i use my cars to comute from fla. to ct and vt. .if this car breaks down in the middle of the carolinas or even upstate conn. or vt. i will be stranded ,and it being a vw the possibility of this happening is high.

sounds like an excuse not to spend the 170 g's ,.maybe

vwguild · May 2005

As a point of order...PHAETONs have been on the road now for about 17 Months, and I am hard pressed to remember hearing from any owners that their cars were ever "on the hook".

And from a personal perspective...17 Months in two of them...not one mechanical malfunction, no squeaks, no rattles, no electical gremlins that would put the car "out of service"...Every repair made in my shop has been benign enough that it was handled during routine maintenance...

stroudman · May 2005

"stroudman, how would you propose to sell a new S-class to a customer who had located an Arnage with say 10k on it with a sell price of 100k?"

I think for my market it would be easy since there is no dealer anywhere near to service the car. That's assuming the prospect is being logical rather than emotional. If they are emotionally caught up in the Arnage (which would be easy to do) it would be an uphill battle. They are both very nice cars, it would likely end up coming down to personal preferences.

merc1 · May 2005

mercedes.............with their downturn in quality of materials and assembly ,and the total reliance in electronics......i have stayed away ..... i still own their pinnacle car,a 1989 420sel with 240,000 miles.
and ,looking to buy another one .........best car ever made .

I'm curious as to what you think about the W140 S-Class. A lot of S-Class owners consider it the best of the lot. Also Mercedes' interior quality has changed with every new model introduced, specifically with the SLK and CLS. They're built much better than the current S-Class. Not sure why you think Mercedes is any different as far as electronics go. Only the truly sportier luxury cars like BMW and Infiniti don't rely on electronics as much.

M

ffb13 · May 2005

merc 1

my point is that the 87 thru 91 420sel and 560 sl are the pinnacle of quality materials and quality of assembly , and product engeenering at mb.
it remained so from 92 until the new s class came out recently ,but the 92 thru 2001 or so, were in fact over engineered .too much mass . and high quality of materials and assembly . but way overdone in size, and highly complex systems. whereas the 87 -91 are just perfect cars.
a look at the engine bay ,or ,talk to any mechanic and he will tell you that this are the easiest cars to work on.

my 420 is going on 240,000 miles . mostly trouble free with the battery lasting 10 years and 4 months and the alternator wearing out at 210,000 miles .
the timing chain was replaced at 200,000 miles .
this car was hit twice,not our fault, with repairs over $12,000 one time and $6,000 the next. still a keeper.

i also have a volvo with 245,000 miles a 1986 740 gt........nothing in the engine or trannny has been touched . the a/c ,muffler and brakes do not last long.but overall ,also a great car.still have it as a new york city hit it if you want ,i do not care ,type car.

regarding the phaeton and vwguild.............you are a vw dealer ,and obviously you are a good dealer,even though you do not care for my phraseology,spelling ,etc...
but the fact is that the phaeton is history ,and even in germany ,it is history,and vw can spin it any way the want ,but the facts are facts.
check the ratings of phaeton at the german ADAC .
check the current production schedule for 2006 thru 2008 for the dresden factory.you have an inside as a dealer ,maybe, ---a hint ,you can get it from vw marketing group.

the infinity is ,in my humble opinion ,the replacement for the bmw cars .i used to rent or borrow bmw in europe all the time. no longer ,my favorite is the audi a6 with the diesel engine,and the vw passat which i get for $ 500. a week all included .

also, saab...........love my 9.5 aero.2000.but just got a letter from saab telling me that the engines ,4 cylinder are self destructing because owners followed the factory recommendations for oil changes and this causes sludge to form and block internal passages ,and wham..........
i have 80,000 miles on mine with engine and oil changes done every 3,000 miles.
tranny fluid changed every 6,000miles because i did not trust this tranny.
anyhow ,saab now tells me that they have extended my warranty to 8 years unlimited mileage. probably a class action lawsuit ?????/
so. it looks like my saab is a short term car. i think that they screwed up .

pat · May 2005

I don't think whether someone "care(s) for" your "phraseology, spelling, etc." is quite the issue. Several folks in several different discussions have pointed out that your messages are difficult to read and therefore to comprehend. When it becomes a lot of work to understand what someone is trying to say, many folks just skip it and go on to something else.

If you want people to hear you, you would help yourself a lot by using correct capitalization and making more of an effort to punctuate your sentences more accurately.

It's entirely up to you, though - it depends on whether you want folks to understand what you are saying without having to do so much work that they just give up and move on.

This is just some friendly advice.

merc1 · May 2005

Ok, I see your point. I did notice though that during the W140's life they did decontent it during the last few years. Thinner this and lighter that, but still oversized and tankish. I liked the design because you always knew what it was and the quality of build was unquestioned.

M

rjlaero · May 2005

Yup! Don't waste your time with long responses that are too difficult to read.

No need to be an English professor. But at least try to make some sense.

ffb13 · May 2005

if you cannot read my post ,so sorry.

but i type and post .maybe i should read what i post before posting . at times i do but not always

blckislandguy · May 2005

Merc1, I think you are absolutley right on about the "working rich" not connecting with a Bentley. AND, it would be significantly harder to buy than waltzing into your local MB store and putting down first and last month's lease payments. (Most working rich are as cash strapped as a retired NBA player two years out of the league.)

Speaking of the Continental's price point, there is a good piece in this AMs WSJ on the explosive growth in families with a net worth of 10 mil or more in the US. This is the car for them. The Phantom at 400K on the other hand is not selling.

Re: Merc1 and only three Bentley dealers in Chicagoland. If three dealers in Chicago isn't enough coverage for you, we have significantly different service accessability thresholds. ....

Re: ffb (aka ee cummings for his punctuation) and his four time a year commute down I95 to FL. From previous posts you have mentioned driving your SAAB from VT to FL. I think you would find better service support for a Bentley than an AERO on this trip. Far better. I'll bet that you are never 45 minutes away from an authorized Bentley dealer once you are out of VT and into CT. Even in the wilds of the Carolinas there are excellent dealers, one smack on I95 in High Point and another further down in SC. I'd rather be broken down in an Arnage on I95 in the Carolinas than in AERO with a wierd tire size (see article in European Car) that no tire store stocks. One cell phone call to the Bentley dealer and a ramp truck would be on its way. You could even get some use out of the trays in the back seat while you waited.

paldi · May 2005

Well said!

seminole_kev · May 2005

Funny you mention that Bentley dealer. I spent a good part of a business trip staring in the window of that dealership! Amazing little collection of cars they have there. Still amazes me that they park a chunk of their inventory out on the street during the day. Guards or not, I can just see some person in a SUV on the cell phone plowing into a couple of them.

merc1 · May 2005

Yesz...it is a fascinating place isn't it. I mean the cars are so crammed in there its a wonder they can every get them in/out with scratching them. At the end of the main window is a lift that they use to get the cars inside from somewhere. I haven't quite figured out if the lift opens up to the street or to an upstairs location. On that lift there is always something interesting resting there. Yeah it is surprising that they put so many cars outside, but I guess its the same as most car dealers put their cars on the grass out front.

Have you seen Fletcher Jones' new used car showroom on the corner of Ontario and LaSalle? Its in what used to be (in another lifetime) a Hanley Dawson Cadillac store. I've seen a few Vanquishes and SLRs there too.

M

seminole_kev · May 2005

Sorry, not that familiar with Chicago. Just spent a week of conferences across the street from the John Hancock Center. So mainly just spent time around that area. What's funny is I was milling about with my old boss and I pointed out a Bentley parked on the street......then noticed a couple of Porsches sitting out front. Finally the light went on in my head and I knew where I was going to be for awhile!

They had a new Rolls on the floor and I just don't care for that front clip.

ffb13 · May 2005

blockisland guy

i changed the donut spare tire into a full size spare tire .it does fit into the space but the top of the floor in the trunk is now about 1/2 an inch higher towards the rear .and,have had to use it 3 times already. and ,no problems getting the new tire.

regarding the bentley and dealers.. yes ,but they are not that close to i95 nor the mountain routes that i favor.
and once you own one , a bentley ,the dealers own you.
same happened with a testa rossa some years ago.hated the feeling.

regarding the saab, this one is reliable so far. but as i posted above i recently received a letter advising that the warranty on my car has been extended to 8 years unlimited miles due to engine failures ,therefore my new commuter car is my infinity fx35.

blckislandguy · May 2005

What a dealer! After a long day of meetings, I was trying to find a Borders or a Barnes and Noble around 6PM on a Friday night before I went back to my hotel room. Then I stumbled into this combination clothing store/night club (up stairs)/high end dealership just off Michigan Ave. The ambiance was amazing with lots of eye candy of all descriptions. The cars were nice too. It looks like they consciously took the model of a Harley dealership and applying it to high end cars, moved it upscale.

I had to wonder though how many of these Bentleys get driven in Chicago in February (as I think S Class cars do get driven). Anybody going to Chicago should put this dealer on their must see list.

paldi · May 2005

This photo makes me laugh!

seminole_kev · May 2005

looks like a dog herding sheep ;-)

ffb13 · May 2005

the new bugatti ,and appears to be in germany.
the first 2 or 3 letters in the plate gives you the city.

designman · May 2005

"looks like a dog herding sheep"

LMAO! Very clever and creative observation. You must have some writer in you. And kudos to Paldi... you discovered the talent in that shot!

seminole_kev · May 2005

"You must have some writer in you."

Ha ha. No, just a southerner's gift for metaphor.....well I guess in this case, simile

seminole_kev · May 2005

Good thing I'm not a writer because now that I look at it (and dusting off my memory) that wasn't a simile at all.

Somehow that photo wouldn't have been near as funny if those VW Beetles were any other car. Had to be those Beetles being "chased" by that vicious looking Bugatti

stroudman · May 2005

Is that Bugatti ever actually going to make it to market?

merc1 · May 2005

Re: Merc1 and only three Bentley dealers in Chicagoland. If three dealers in Chicago isn't enough coverage for you, we have significantly different service accessability thresholds. ....

Well I just meant that a Bentley dealer isn't as visible and they aren't usually on your typical "dealer row" like more "common" makes. I'm sure that three are enough for service and what not. Here they're spread out pretty good, one is in downtown Chicago and the other two are in the Western and Northern Suburbs.

The Bentley dealer in Downtown Chicago is wonderland for the rich. They sell any and everything expensive with wheels. Spykers, SLRs, Saleen, you name it.

M

paldi · May 2005

I saw a couple of photos of a Bugatti 4-door that looked a little like a Bentley Flying Spur with a long hood and rounded tail. Zoom, Zoom. Supposed to be a line forming for that! Does anyone have details/photos?

xkss · May 2005

For all the many luxury brands out there, I believe no one does it better than the Euro's, so those are the luxury cars I'd rather talk about.

One reason for that is due to the wide range of European car makers.

Duesenberg did luxury and performance better than anyone else, imo. Plus they had racecars that won the Indy 500 four times.

xkss · May 2005

paldi,

That Bugatti is the 1993 Bugatti EB112 concept.

Also, the new Bugatti Veyron isn't a real Bugatti. VW simply bought the name and developed the Veyron.

xkss · May 2005

I don't care for the new Bentley Continental Flying Spur.

The following is from CAR June, 2005 on the new Continental Flying Spur:

"At an indicated 285 km/h (178 mph) the Flying Spur is calm, quiet and incredibly unexciting, just like the Continental GT."

"There's a whiff of Korean to the slabby sides."

"Debt to the Conti GT is obvious. Except to the Japanese tourist who asked if it was a Rover."

"Beautifully executed saloon, but it leaves us cold."

merc1 · May 2005

To my eye these new Bentleys don't look like anything but oversized VW's and/or something Timberland would create. The Conti GT is humiliated in style by the Aston-Martin DB9, IMO. The Flying Spur will sell like hotcakes just like the Conti GT because of the price and status that "Bentley" has.

M

xkss · May 2005

The owner has done the 1/4 mile in 12.53 seconds at 109 mph.

check this link

Jaguar XJR

ffb13 · June 2005

i have a film ,video tape ,of a 4 door bugatti in clay and steel with a cardboard interiror ,that i shot in berlin about 4 years ago ,or so ,that puts to shame the current bugatti styling exercises .

i wish i could find a way to post it here .

anyhow ,it was a design exercise done when vw acquired the brand . it is a shame it never made it to market . classic but futuristic lines and a slooped rear end but within proportions .

this should have been their 4 door .

designman · June 2005

That abomination above looks like a cross between some kind of Buick and PT Cruiser.

designman · June 2005

To my eye these new Bentleys don't look like anything but oversized VW's and/or something Timberland would create.

Funny, I can see Timberland now that you mention it. I have them as art deco light. However, the CGT has a hunkered-down high-roller look to it... driving up to the valets at night with shades on... peeling off the tip from a ream of hundreds. Somehow I see it as picking up where Cadillac left off in the 50s. Just thinking out loud. BTW, ever see the size of the brakes on that sucker?

designman · June 2005

A steamrolled PT Cruiser.

merc1 · June 2005

Oh I agree the CGT has a huge presence on the road. It looks bold and imposing, but still isn't what I'd call a "good looking" car like the DB9. The brakes are supposed to be the largest fitted to any current production car.

M

xkss · June 2005

I've seen it and it look too bulky compared to a DB9.

The hood is too tall and short like that of a VW.

High-End European Luxury Sedans

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