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Nissan Murano vs Toyota Highlander vs Subaru B9 Tribeca vs Honda Pilot

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You either were not paying attention or you did not watch the whole video.

    There were 2 Subarus and 3 Mitsus.

    Did you even watch it?

    The EVO that got that record was surely heavily modified. A great accomplishment still, but it's not representative of a stock EVO.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    By the way, about that time attack:

    The current OEM chassis Time Attack record holder is the all carbon-fibre HKS CT230R Lancer Evolution, posting a time of 53.589 seconds

    Not exactly stock, now, is it?
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> In the context of the Outlander, which is the relevance of this thread, the Dakar accomplishments don't mean much. It would be like saying that the Fusion raced in NASCAR helped the Ford Focus (i.e. a different car from the same brand).

    To me it means that Mitsubishi as a brand has better technology. As simple as that. And while Subaru screams on every corner, that they have the best AWD system, but after all they just can’t deliver a prestigious offroad rally win.

    >> They race a Pajero now, right? The Outlander isn't based on the Montero/Pajero. It's actually based on the Dodge Caliber. Seen any Calibers at Dakar?

    You put here this fake Lancer/STI video, while none of these cars are subjects of this discussion. Do you think this thread is one way street for you? And Outlander is NOT based on Caliber, but you could say they are related.


    >> Subaru didn't make that video, I already mentioned. It was Best Motoring.

    Sure, they don’t make videos, why bother? There are so many hungry reporters, so Subaru just pays for the videos.
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> There were 2 Subarus and 3 Mitsus.
    Did you even watch it?

    Cheap shot: it's just a typo.
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    Excuses again. Every manufacturer is in equal position to modify a vehicle to win. Subaru just can’t.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,604
    None of this has much to do with this thread.

    In any case, Subaru has never entered a factory team to compete at Dakar like Mitsu does, so comparing the two there is pretty pointless. You'd have to pick an event or series that they've both entered, which means you have to talk WRC. And if you look over the past 10-15 years, they've both won plenty of trophies, Subie with McRae, Burns and Solberg, Mitsu with Makinen. Mitsu has been unwilling to commit to a full season the past few years, likely due to shrinking budgets. I am sure they will step it up now that the new Evo is out. As for Subie, they have the new Impreza platform, and David Richards from Prodrive returning to run the team...I'd say they'll give Loeb and Citroen the first real competition they've had in years.

    And incidentally, Best Motoring is a super popular show in Japan....definitely not a Subie [or Mitsu] advertisement.

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    There is a good reason Subaru does not do Dakar: it can't. And it failed in the past. And Subaru is not picked by freelance drivers, while they do pick Pajeros. Pajero appears to be a no-brainer car to do very well in the desert.

    WRC is not an off-road rally to test Subaru's highly advertised "superior" AWD system.

    Best Motoring "race" posted the best time of something 1'06" which is about 10-11" worse vs. typical time posted by non-modified Lancers, Mazdas and Nissans on that track. 10 seconds will get you very far on these cars. So the results of that Best Motoring “show” are respectable as much as those results of races, where Mitsubishi Lancer beats Lamborghini, and then it beats BMW M3 and Ferrari Modena.
    .
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    "...Subaru is not picked by freelance drivers, while they do pick Pajeros. Pajero appears to be a no-brainer car to do very well in the desert.

    WRC is not an off-road rally to test Subaru's highly advertised "superior" AWD system."

    Let's flip this around: In my snowy, rainy & muddy corner of the world, Mitsubishi is not picked by real-world drivers (I mean non-competition drivers), while they do pick Subarus. Subarus appear to be a no-brainer car to do very well on slippery roads.

    Different vehicles have different benefits and appeal to everyone differently. Folks here aren't trying to say how lousy Mitsubishis are... why are you here trying to say how lousy Subarus are? Sounds like if it were up to you, we'd all be driving Outlanders. (By the way, Outlander isn't even in the topic of this thread, so I'm not sure why we're having this discussion.) Personally, it will be a long time before I could consider purchasing from such a corrupt company as Mitsubishi, which hid vehicle defects for decades before the coverup was revealed in a scandal that heavily damaged Mitsubishi's reputation. Being a Mitsubishi fan, I'm sure you know all about it, but there may be folks who haven't:
    http://www.theoaklandpress.com/stories/061704/bus_20040617034.shtml

    And do you really think Subaru shouts louder than Mitsubishi in the advertising arena? Mitsu is much larger than Subaru. I bet a smart person like yourself can take some sort of educated guess and come to the conclusion that, globally, Mitsubishi must VASTLY outspend Subaru on advertising.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well written post, thanks.

    The supposedly Dakar-inspired Outlander just got the lowest score in the Off Road category in a Car & Driver test. They said it "felt fragile".

    Ouch.

    So much for technology transfer.

    And for all the hype about MIVEC, the 2.4l in the Outlander makes less power than the same engine does in the Dodge Caliber that the Outlander shares its GS platform with.

    I'm not saying the Outlander is a bad crossover, in fact the Chrysler roots and Chrysler/Hyundai (GEMA) joint venture engine help keep costs down, and it performs well on the streets.

    But Dakar? Put down the Kool Aid, please. :D
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> Folks here aren't trying to say how lousy Mitsubishis are... why are you here trying to say how lousy Subarus are?

    I am not saying the Subarus are lousy. Subarus are in fact very dependable and reliable cars. I am saying that Subaru AWD system is very overrated and outdated. Sophisticated consumer today demands more sophisticated and flexible AWD. Here what Mr. ddilas says in this thread: “Full time AWD systems are cool but in reality they just eat up more gas! Why send power to all the wheels all the time if you don't need to? Systems like the Nissan Murano or "Real Time" AWD system like in some Hondas are much more fuel efficient.” And I am saying that Mitsubishi is offerings more sophisticated and flexible full-time AWD with no extra marketing fluff like they “championed this key technology”. Mitsubishi as brand also delivered real-world off-road rally results.
    .

    >> Personally, it will be a long time before I could consider purchasing from such a corrupt company as Mitsubishi, which hid vehicle defects for decades before the coverup was revealed in a scandal that heavily damaged Mitsubishi's reputation. Being a Mitsubishi fan, I'm sure you know all about it, but there may be folks who haven't: http:// www. theoaklandpress.com/stories/061704/bus_20040617034.shtml

    Wow, you brought 4-year old news! Cheap shot. Sure there is always lawsuits and recalls, especially for the company that big, which is in business of building jets, large trucks and buses. But even if you google “Subaru lawsuit” or “Subaru recall” you will find a bunch of stuff about the Subaru as well. But like I’ve said I have no problem with Subaru’s reliability. According to CR three Subarus are in the list of most reliable (and two Mistubishis), which is considering small lineup, is better then Toyota and Honda. It’s just unfortunate though, that Subaru does not offer much innovation. Today we worry so much about fuel consumption and emission, but Subaru still uses the outdated AWD system and builds its first diesel engine!
    .

    >> And do you really think Subaru shouts louder than Mitsubishi in the advertising arena? Mitsu is much larger than Subaru. I bet a smart person like yourself can take some sort of educated guess and come to the conclusion that, globally, Mitsubishi must VASTLY outspend Subaru on advertising.

    Who knows, what’s the Mitsu’s advertising spending per car sold vs. Subaru’s? No one, so it’s pure speculation. But Subaru’s statements “Subaru has championed this key technology” and “Subaru has always been ahead of its competitors in regard to drivetrain development” sound like a big marketing stretch to say the least.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Subaru's VDC is the best AWD system on the market today. At any price.

    It can send 100% of power to either axle, managed both the front and rear axle, and is pro-active and engineered for full-time use.

    Part-time systems shut off above a certain speed, and revert to FWD. I do not consider that an advantage, but rather a weakness.

    The 4 banger Outlander is EPA rated at 20/25 mpg for its 168hp and part-time AWD. The new Forester makes 170hp and is rated 20/26.

    Your theory doesn't pan out in practice, it's still less efficient, even with the advantage of a CVT.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,604
    Oh brother, I didn't want to go here; I was trying to say they were both legit in my post. But you apparently think nothing matches almighty Mitsu.

    There is a good reason Subaru does not do Dakar: it can't. And it failed in the past.

    Tell me more about this factory Subaru team that failed at Dakar.

    WRC is not an off-road rally to test Subaru's highly advertised "superior" AWD system.

    Its funny that you think that the WRC is not a good test of AWD. Have you even seen a rally? After seeing WRC events live as well as personally competing in rallycross events in the NW, I can say with confidence that a rally is a darn good test of not only AWD systems etc., but also general reliability. Its mostly mud, gravel, sand, and then tarmac, which better mimic what you might encounter with your own car. Unless you're saying you live in Mauritania. The machinery that races WRC is much more closely related to what is on sale at your local dealership than anything from Dakar (exception might be motorcycles).

    What is funny to me is how you dismiss rallying as not relevant, yet your Outlander is based on the Lancer, which is what Mitsu uses in the WRC. Does this mean your AWD system is not 'tested'?

    Last, if you think that the 'Pajero' prepared for Dakar has anything to do with a commercial Outlander or a Pajero, think again. Go read something like 'Against Gravity' by Ed McCabe if you want to read a humorous story on how these cars are built. Do you peel off a plastic shell to check the oil on your tubular framed Outlander's handbuilt engine? Do you think there is a rotary switch labeled 2H, 4H, 4Lock in the cockpit? :blush:

    I don't see this as a Mitsu vs. Subie thing at all. I just think that believing that a once a year Motorsports event [with custom built machinery and little regulation] directly ties to your Outlander's AWD system is an example of drinking the marketing kool-aid a little too much. Or a lot too much.

    Anyhow, sorry folks for the tangent; I'm done. To bring it back to the topic, I like all of the vehicles listed on this thread's title. New Pilot is a bit challenging looking, however :)

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I looked up what MIVEC stands for, given the 2.4l makes less HP than its twin engine in the Dodge Caliber:

    Mitsubishi's
    Innovative
    Vanishing
    Engine
    Capability

    Any more acronyms to figure out? This is fun... :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ascend
    You
    Can't

    That is the technology used to score last place in a Car & Driver comparo in the Off Road category - not an easy task when there are 9 competitors vying for last place!

    Patent Pending! :D

    Let's see, what could ASC stand for?
  • autowriteautowrite Member Posts: 226
    I am interest in the Nissan Murano vs Toyota Highlander vs Subaru B9 Tribeca vs Honda Pilot discussions not just Dakar ralleys. Also Subaru is part of FUJI Heavy Industries and it includes street sweepers which are trucks plus aerospace, etc.
    See the following url:
    http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/sitemap/index.html
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,604
    I am interest in the Nissan Murano vs Toyota Highlander vs Subaru B9 Tribeca vs Honda Pilot discussions not just Dakar ralleys.

    Fair enough. Back on topic. :)

    Murano gets a price cut.

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> Subaru's VDC is the best AWD system on the market today. At any price.

    Sure :--)

    >> It can send 100% of power to either axle

    Do you have a link to support this statement or it's you made it up?
    .

    >> The 4 banger Outlander is EPA rated at 20/25 mpg for its 168hp and part-time AWD. The new Forester makes 170hp and is rated 20/26.

    As far as I know 4 banger Outlander's EPA is not available yet, link? Besides don't forget that Outlander is heavier. Anyway, you can defeat laws of physics: if you want to spin more wheels, you have to burn more fuel. At least it works that way in Chicago, never been in Brazil :--)
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >>I am interest in the Nissan Murano vs Toyota Highlander vs Subaru B9 Tribeca vs Honda Pilot discussions not just Dakar ralleys.

    I agree. And please no more fake marketing videos from youtube about vehicles irrelevant to this thread.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Do you have a link to support this statement

    Sure...

    http://210.101.116.115/fisita/pdf/G347.pdf

    As far as I know 4 banger Outlander's EPA is not available yet, link?

    My source is the print copy of Consumer Guide, February 2008, pp. 182-183. Note that they are not the same as Consumer Reports, nor are they owned by Consumer's Union. They're owned by Magazine Auto Series.

    fake marketing videos

    You wish. :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I guess I'm not surprised. It was priced high for a smallish mid-sizer that doesn't offer a 3rd row.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    When I evaluate a traction system, the question I ask include:

    * is the front axle managed?
    * is the rear axle managed?
    * is the system engineered for full-time use?
    * is the system proactive (vs. reactive)?
    * can the system send all the power to either axle?

    Subaru's VDC on the Tribeca can do all 5. The PDF above details why.

    Mitsubishi drops one for the 3rd criteria. #4 is debatable, but FWD based systems can't go 100% to the rear axle so it misses #5 as well. 3 out of 5 at best.

    Even Audi cannot meet the 5th criteria - Quattro uses a Torsen with a 2 to 1 bias ratio, so Audi is limited to send at most 67% of power to either axle.

    Subaru makes the best AWD system around.
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    Wow! This is the best you can do? This PDF is some research paper on some noname Korean server does not say much and clear about the 5 “criteria” you claim to be important. Where does it say that the Subaru system can send 100% of the power to either axle? All it says that “The output torque of the transmission is distributed 36% to front wheels and 64% to rear”. And no mention what particular car it was installed on as part of this “experiment”. If Subaru’s AWD system would be capable of 100% power transfer to either axle, this would be on Subaru’s site and in every Subaru’s car review and every publication.

    “36% to front wheels and 64% to rear“ - so what? The Outlander’s 4WD Lock mode also distributes up to 60% of torque to the rear wheels. And you can get this information not from some weird PDF file, but from the official Outlander site. Outlander’s 4WD Lock mode is a true full-time 4WD. Both 4WD Lock and 4WD Auto modes deliver constant torque to rear wheels and there is no the rear wheels disengagement at any speed.

    The Outlander’s AWD system is both reactive and proactive, as any good system should be. It proactively prevents wheel spin during start up and acceleration in slippery conditions. Even if the driver has not selected 4WD Auto or 4WD Lock modes on a 4WD Outlander model, front wheel spin can be controlled under a variety of conditions. The 4WD Auto (or I would call it 4WD Econo mode) provides better fuel economy while it allows to maintain intelligent torque to the rear axle.

    Coupling torque is computed using a combination of feed-forward control, which operates in response to accelerator pedal action, and feedback control, which monitors the speed of the four wheels and computes any difference between front and rear wheel rotation speeds. The system interprets driving conditions and driver input and delivers the right amount of torque to the rear wheels.

    The Outlander features standard Active Skid and Traction Control helps to prevent side slipping (spin and side drift) as a result of sudden steering wheel operation or on slippery roads. When it detects side-slipping or wheel spin, ASTC provides integrated control of brakes, engine torque (via the electronic throttle control), transmission and electronically controlled 4WD to improve vehicle stability.

    The traction control portion of ASTC provides a "virtual" limited-slip differential effect by helping to prevent wheel spin during start up and acceleration in slippery conditions. An ASTC OFF switch allows the driver to disengage the system. Instances where that could be useful include driving the vehicle through deep snow, or out of a snowed-in parking space. In such situations, traction control could be a hindrance. The electronically controlled 4WD system does not rely on traction control to distribute power; power distribution is controlled through the electronically controlled viscous coupling, with ASTC influencing that as needed.

    And unlike Subaru, the Outlnder is capable of the 100% power transfer to the front axle: just turn the knob at any speed :--)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I love how you dismiss an entire Automotive Congress.

    Kind of like you deny the legitimacy of the Best Motoring video.

    You think it's a marketing video, but no, here is the marketing video you're looking for, this one is indeed produced by Subaru:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4999142340359932162

    You obviously cut and pasted 4 paragraphs, which is plagiarism by the way, without even giving credit to a source.

    My response is simple - all that technology you described simply failed to materialize in practice. Car & Driver gave it a score of just 2 out of 5, worst in the test of 9 competitors.

    All those acronyms = "felt fragile" on the off road portion of the test. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    PS Watch the 4 roller ramp test in the video to evaluate torque transfer. This is what I refered to earlier - the Passat they show has a Torsen and fails to climb the ramp, yet the Subaru succeeds. Note the wheels stop spinning completely.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,604
    I re-read that C/D comparo last night; I think the surprise star of the whole test was the Grand Vitara...scored pretty high in areas like Fun to Drive, offers low range and lock for high and low, and was midpack for mileage and acceleration...not bad at all. And it was only one point behind the Outtie for fourth.

    Sorry, I'll get back on topic...

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    To me, the surprise was that all the 4 bangers performed so well, even in acceleration.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Is anyone actually going to the dealers and comparing these SUVs for sale there? We'd love to hear your impressions. :)
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    Speaking of real-world owner ratings the results appear to be very consistent all across the three major consumer ratings sites. Hundreds of owners rated their cars. Sometimes you see some junkie rating there, but overall it’s much more objective vs. some currupted magazine "comparo".

    It might appear, that differences are small but they do reflect a trend well:

    Edmunds.com
    2007 Honda Pilot 8.6
    2007 Subaru B9 Tribeca 8.9
    2007 Nissan Murano 9.2
    2007 Mitsu Outlander 9.2

    MSN Autos
    2007 Honda Pilot 8.9
    2007 Subaru B9 Tribeca 9.2
    2007 Nissan Murano 9.4
    2007 Mitsu Outlander 9.5

    Yahoo Autos
    2007 Honda Pilot 3.5
    2007 Subaru B9 Tribeca 3.5
    2007 Nissan Murano 4.5
    2007 Mitsu Outlander 4.5

    For the real people the Murano and the Outlander appear to be favorites in this group. both could use improvements, but overall they offer the best balance of styling, comfort, reliability, technology, value and driving fun.

    Subarus, on my opinion are little behind in styling and technology, but they are very reliable cars and standard AWD is a great bonus, if fuel economy is not an issue.
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    The funny thing is, the Pilot's probably the biggest seller of that bunch, at least in the US. Go figure. I don't have any numbers, but I think it may even be possible that Pilot outsells Tribeca, Murano and Outlander combined.

    You may be interested in truedelta.com, one fellow's indepedent effort to rate vehicle reliability/quality with no bias. I think he does a heck of a job. Take a look and enter your vehicle's info, if you wish... they're always looking to add more owners from smaller marketshare brands like Mitsubishi & Subaru, and the more real-world results there are, the more accurate the information.
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    "standard AWD is a great bonus, if fuel economy is not an issue."

    I think Subaru does a good job limiting any reduction of fuel economy. Forester, for example, is already more fuel-efficient than nearly all similar AWD vehicles (the new RAV is the exception I can think of), and it's the oldest Subie in the stable. However, it has very minimal MPG loss compared to similar 2WD vehicles as well: PT Cruiser 19/26; HHR 23/30; 2WD CRV 23/30; new Scion Xb 22/28; Rondo 21/29; Forester 23/28. Forester's city MPG is tied for the best, and hwy MPG is only 2 MPG lower than the leaders. Among those competitors, Forester offers the most horsepower, the most torque, and full-time AWD - and the tradeoff vs. its most efficient competitors is only 2 MPG highway. I'd gladly give up 2MPG for more HP, torque & AWD.

    Subaru's close to bringing to market direct injection gasoline engines, CVTs and the diesel. I think they are taking the right steps to increase their fuel economy even further. Plus, they're right with Mitsubishi, introducing a small electric vehicle for sale to the Japanese public in the next 2 years.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Corrupted magazine, LOL! Good one! :D

    Personally, I value Editor's ratings over user ratings, because they're the experts. But let's look anyway.

    Edmunds users rates the Subaru Forester a 9.2, so in the compact SUV class it's a draw. An Outlander is smaller than the Pilot. Their mid-size entry is the Endeavor.

    MSN rates Forester 9.4, Yahoo 4.5, so basically no significant difference from the Outlander.

    Plus, we all know owners don't take these compact SUVs off road, so their ratings do not reflect the abilities of the AWD system in that context.

    From the Dakar/rally angle, though, it was a little disappointing to read about the off road results. Why didn't it perform better? My guess is it's because they used a Dodge Caliber platform to begin with.

    The good thing about the Outlander, actually, is that by cutting costs with all the parts and platform sharing with Dodge and Hyundai, they were able to add a lot of content. The "corrupt" Car & Driver review reflects that with a good score for content.
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    Yes, it is funny, that the Pilot is the bigger seller of that bunch, so is the RAV4 which also has lower owner rating. Explanation is very simple to me: Honda and Toyota have much bigger marketing spending, plus they place more ads and car magazines and therefore they getting better ratings from these magazine's "experts", plus they have much bigger dealer presence. DOn't get me wrong, Toyota nad Honda make great cars, but not always the best.

    Best product does not always have biggest market share (Microsoft/Apple, betamax/VHS, etc.)

    Yes, I am a trudelta member, good site btw.
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> Corrupted magazine, LOL! Good one! Personally, I value Editor's ratings over user ratings, because they're the experts

    Car magazines make living from car advertising. Don’t they? Consumer Reports is the only magazine I know that at least claims that they are not paid by manufacturers. CR car reviews are not always on a high level, but they provide the best reliability info, since they collect it from real owners. All other magazines have the obvious conflict of interest: on one hand they have to be objective to cars they review, on the other hand they have to please donors who manufacture these cars, otherwise they not gonna get advertising dollars from a manufacturer - very tough position to be in. Car magazines are essentially additional marketing and sales tools for manufacturers and car “experts” are essentially salesmen. I am more interested in ratings by real-world owners. Real-world owners don't sell cars, instead they buy them paying hard earned dollars, so I have more trust to a 100 of real people who bought a car and drive it for a few months, rather then to one magazine “expert”/salesmen, who drives for 60 min. brand new car from dealership.



    >> Edmunds users rates the Subaru Forester a 9.2, so in the compact SUV class it's a draw. An Outlander is smaller than the Pilot. MSN rates Forester 9.4, Yahoo 4.5, so basically no significant difference from the Outlander.

    I did not want to bring another car to this thread, but yes, Outlander is a smaller car, and yes, Forester has great owner ratings, so to me it means it’s a great vehicle, probably best in a class though it’s not really a crossover – it’s a station wagon.
    .

    >> Plus, we all know owners don't take these compact SUVs off road, so their ratings do not reflect the abilities of the AWD system in that context.

    Consumer ratings reflect overall owner satisfaction with a car, including mileage, styling, reliability, etc. Owners usually don’t mention the AWD system, though I imagine if the vehicle would behave badly on slippery road, they would complain and it would affect the ratings.


    >> From the Dakar/rally angle, though, it was a little disappointing to read about the off road results. Why didn't it perform better? My guess is it's because they used a Dodge Caliber platform to begin with.

    Like I’ve said, the comparo by magazine “experts” does not mean much to me: they push up whoever buys more ads.
    .

    >> The good thing about the Outlander, actually, is that by cutting costs with all the parts and platform sharing with Dodge and Hyundai, they were able to add a lot of content. The "corrupt" Car & Driver review reflects that with a good score for content.

    Mitsubishi might be also buying some ads, so the “expert” being in very difficult position have to play more sophisticated game, knowing that after all a consumer is looking at the bottom line: who lost in the comparo and who won. Details on who had “good content” matter less at the end.
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> The good thing about the Outlander, actually, is that by cutting costs with all the parts and platform sharing with Dodge and Hyundai, they were able to add a lot of content.

    I am not sure what you mean here, since the Outlander is sharing its platform design with Lancer (so does the Caliber), but the Outlander sold in North America is build entirely in Japan. I believe it is build with all Japanese parts and labor, which is a main reason it has highest CR reliability and owner satisfaction ratings.
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >>I think Subaru does a good job limiting any reduction of fuel economy.

    Yes, but Subaru’s relatively decent fuel economy is achieved at cost of using variable torque for the rear axle, adjusted for road condition. To stay competitive they pretty much follow what other manufacturers are doing.
    .

    >>Forester, for example, is already more fuel-efficient than nearly all similar AWD vehicles

    2WD cars still have better mileage, so dual mode 2WD/4WD cars have advantage, since consumer has two choices.
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    "2WD cars still have better mileage..."

    All of my examples were 2WD vehicles competing w/AWD Forester. Only 2 of the 5 got better mileage... the Honda and the Chevy... and their advantage was 2MPG more on the highway (they had no advantage in the city) gained at least in part from their less powerful engines. Bump those engines up to match the Forester's and I wonder if their slight advantage would vanish altogether.
    PT Cruiser 19/26; HHR 23/30; 2WD CRV 23/30; new Scion Xb 22/28; Rondo 21/29; Forester 23/28
    I'm not saying there's no drivetrain loss with AWD, but just saying 2WD cars get better mileage is much too sweeping.

    "Yes, but Subaru’s relatively decent fuel economy is achieved at cost of using variable torque for the rear axle, adjusted for road condition."

    I don't understand how that's a bad thing. Subarus allow torque to vary between front & rear axles, allowing the most torque to reach the wheels with the most traction in any given instant, whether the driver observes slippery conditions beforehand or not. Different Subaru models have different normal bias... some are FWD-biased for better economy and some are RWD-biased for more sporting driving experience.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Consumer Reports is the only magazine I know that at least claims that they are not paid by manufacturers

    True, but they categorize the Outlander in the Forester's class, and the Subaru scores higher by their measures.

    The just-released 2009 model has 8.9" of ground clearance and is as much as crossover as anything else in the class, if not more so.

    Any how, I think we've thread-jacked a bit much to talk about compacts, let's get back to the mid-sizers this thread was intended for.

    I'm also signed up for truedelta. I like the idea behind it - so simplistic and run by a random Joe with no agenda.
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> Any how, I think we've thread-jacked a bit much to talk about compacts, let's get back to the mid-sizers this thread was intended for

    yes, and move my response to the appropriate thread: Crossover SUV Comparison
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Like I’ve said, the comparo by magazine “experts” does not mean much to me: they push up whoever buys more ads.

    I'm sure you will share your source and credible proof to back this claim? Personal opinions do not count.
  • chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> I'm sure you will share your source and credible proof to back this claim?

    Do you need a credible proof that car magazines get paid by car manufacturers? Hey, this is capitalism! Don’t pretend to be so naive. Ads in magazines don’t come for free, so the top comparo ratings and awards such as "car of the year". There is no such thing as free lunch.

    >> Personal opinions do not count.

    Then be consistent: you should not count personal opinions of magazine “experts”, nor your own personal opinions.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm gonna defend aviboy97 on this one...he works closely with many Mazdas and has insider access to information you and I simply don't have. He's more than qualified to share useful info with Edmunds members.
  • ylzylz Member Posts: 45
    Hello everyone. I'm new to this forum but am about to purchase a 2008 Tribeca 5 Pas/Limited. Now I am really torn about getting the black exterior with beige interior or the diamond gray exterior with gray interior. I wanted black on black but obviously that's not possible. The beige interior is much nicer in person and I always wanted a black SUV. But people keep telling me to stay away from black cars cause they're so dam hard to keep clean. Has anyone that had a black car share some insight to this. Now the diamond gray color is also gorgeous on the outside. You guys let me know which one you like better. Thanks.
  • kmartinkmartin Member Posts: 427
    YLZ, welcome to the forum! Just an FYI, you've been cross-posting (posting the same message in multiple categories) which is generally frowned upon. Just find one category that's appropriate to your topic and stick with that one. That makes browsing quicker and easier for everyone (so we don't have to read your post several times :-) )

    As for the color choice, darker exterior is always harder to keep clean, but does look cool. And although the beige interior is a really classy look, I opted for the grey cuz I thought it was sportier. (Also, my last two cars had beige and I was tired of it).

    Best wishes!

    -Karen in AZ-
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Just find one category that's appropriate to your topic and stick with that one.

    Excellent advice - thanks!

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • ronnronn Member Posts: 398
    Hey...I am a Toyota fan, but I can tell you that the Black Avalon I had was sharp, but one of the reasons I traded was the color. Black is not only hard to keep looking great, but it also shows every little scratch and swirl mark.
    It also absorbs lots of heat if you have it out alot in the sun. Black is a sharp color if you want to go to an extreme work -out to keep it clean.
    Best of luck on your color!

    Ronn
  • ronnronn Member Posts: 398
    To add to the comparisons, not much has been said here about the Highlander 08 In a recent snow Ice event, it did a beautiful job on the road. Highlander has one of the highest reviews posted, with excellent reviews about this great SUV.
  • lucky_777lucky_777 Member Posts: 205
    Where was that review published?
  • ronnronn Member Posts: 398
    Hey Lucky, What I meant was the Number of reviews by folks that own them...73 reviews currently with a 9.3 .
    I hope Edmunds will review the Highlander 08 soon! It is a great SUV. I had friends with me today for the first time, and they said it was one of the best they had been in...quiet, smooth. They were very surprised, and loved the looks.
    I drove a Tribeca, but found the Highlander to have more room inside, and I prefer the looks of the Highlander better. IMO the Toyotas have a better fit & finish that's why I have owned many!
  • morey000morey000 Member Posts: 384
    Wow. The front end isn't bad, but the new Pilot is one plain basic looking CUV.

    There I was looking at photos of the new Pilot, and next to it was an ad for the Enclave. The Enclave has more beauty and style in it's tail light trim than the Pilot has in the whole vehicle. But, design is subjective. For instance, I love the look of my '07 Tribeca, which was certainly panned by many.

    just my $0.02.

    The Buick Enclave is a remarkably beautiful vehicle. Never driven one, but they sure are puurty.
  • ronnronn Member Posts: 398
    I agree with you on the looks of the Pilot. I love the looks of my Highlander 08 much better!
    While the Enclave is sharp looking, they are having problems. Check out their Forum section. There are some un-happy folks with it.
This discussion has been closed.

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