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Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds?

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Comments

  • blymagisterblymagister Member Posts: 4
    I was talking about hybrids (Civic VP is not a hybrid), and for Hybrids, the Prius and Civic have less horsepower than the diesels...

    2005 Prius is 76hp
    2005 Civic Hybrid is 93hp (ok this one's a little more than yours - the new 1.9 TDI is 100)

    Though I think it should be noted that the performance of the Prius (and the Civic) feels a little bit more powerful than a diesel at the low end, due to the high-torque electric motor. The Prius, which can run just on the electric motor from a stop, probably feels real peppy becuase of that high-torque motor - the Civic using IMA (which can only use both the engine and the electric motor, and not soley the electric motor) has a more powerful engine because of this.

    But the point I was trying to make, err, I think, was that hybrid technology has a brighter future when applied to (EX level) SUV's and more powerful cars which would usually get 16-22 or so mpg, but with IMA/ Synergy Drive will get around 30mpg, and will gain a broader torque band. It's these cars that hybrid technology is best applied to, as they are the "gas guzzlers". I don't think taking cars which otherwise get good mpg anyway (like Civics, etc...) and retrofitting them with hybrid technology to get them to produce even better mpg is the best way to solve the problem of high energy consumption. What these cars do, however, is act as billboards for the technology or the "image", so that people can pick out hybrids on the road and understand the promising technology.

    I like to compare the hybrid IMA to Honda's VTEC. This technology promised better performance and better fuel economy - and it did just that. The VTEC technology, if you don't know what it is exactly, is outfitting the intake (and sometimes exhaust) valves with a "variably lobed" camshaft (a device which pushes down on the valves to let in air, let out exhaust, etc...), so that at normal engine rpm - say from 0 to 4,000 - the valves would be pushed down by a smaller lobe, and above 4,000, the camshaft would physically move and push down the valves with a bigger lobe, which would open the valves more, letting more air in and exhaust out, etc... This equals more horsepower. VTEC changed internal combustion engines forever, now all manufacturers have their own versions of VTEC (since Honda's patent on the technology expired). The system has evolved over time, even for Honda, and manufacturers have their own ways of having variable valve lift - Toyota's system manipulates the rocker arm - BMW's system directly controls the height of the valves via throttle input (eliminating a throttle body). And just incase I missed something and got something wrong, feel free to blast away.

    Anyway, IMA is kind of like the idea of VTEC - the idea of having an engine that is variable. If you want to drive economically, the car will be economical; if you want to drive fast, than the car will be fun and fast. Just like people pay premiums for hybrid technology today, they did the same when a version of the VTEC system was included in the 1992 Honda Civic EX - this promised the same economy as the DX/LX's non-VTEC motor, but added the option of having an extra 17 horsepower.

    The new 2006 Civic Hybrid will have 110 hp and promises 50/50 mpg. Because it will be only 1,000-1,500 more than a comparably equipped EX, people will buy it. And then they will read articles about how they're wasting their money - whatever. Wasiting money is so relative.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "The point you might have overlooked is even Honda and Prius have greater HP than the TDI 1.9 L that is common to the Golf, Beetle, Jetta which you have cited. My 2003 Jetta TDI is rated at 90 HP. Even my 2004 Honda Civic VP has MORE HP 115 hp. "

    But we must remember that the diesel excells at low speed torque, and has very high reliability and longevity (as a technology, not necessarily speaking here about any particular vehicle or manufacturor).

    In an ICE car, the HP and torque are more closely tied, not so with the diesels.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Fitzmall.com had them for under MSRP before gas prices spiked upward (now they sold out). That was a base price. They're on the east coast. Besides, you can't get a TDI in Cali so there is no sense comparing prices there.

    Look at a new Jetta - they don't cost any less than a Prius, I've seen them hit $26k with the 2.5l base engine! And the TDI would add about a grand to that.

    Honda was just clearing out the HCH, some reported paying just $19k. Cheaper than a new Jetta (minus the stripper model with plastic wheel covers).

    I belive the $18k on the 2003 Jetta, but prices have increased since then.

    -juice
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well certainly the prices have increased on the Jetta and so have the Prius's and Honda Civic Hybrids'.

    I think at this juncture the thing one is paying for is bragging rights. Certainly, the cost differential is very hard to recoup. One can see the wisdom in Hollywood stars.. Normally they would have spent say 100,000 to 500,000 and some beyond for the bling/flash du jour. Shoot, out the door at less than 30k and they have instant advertising cache and become instant environmentalists'. Better still if you can get Toyota or Honda to let a Hollywood star drive it free, you know, as advertising.

    Toyota and Honda both understand they must drive down the cost of the hybrid to get it into more widespread use.

    The truth is the smog effect of hybrids operating on the road is not even measureable, let alone statistically significant given how smog is measured in urban areas. Yes intellectually on a one for one basis they emit less of the "bad stuff" but at this point "so what"

    Even if we were on a mandatory requirement for hybrid replacement (which we are not by the way) ; given the average age of the passenger vehicle fleet of 8-8.5 years and a salvage rate of 7% per year of a population of registered 232 M vehicles, it will take a VERY LONG time .In this example a best case scenario is 14.5 years!!!! So it is easy to project given whatever replacement % you have on the 7% of salvaged autos.

    So in fact if you use diesel passenger vehicle fleets of 2.3-2.9% we are talking 373,520-470,960 units per year. Total replacement would take, are you ready for this ? 232M/470,960=493 years!!

    Of course WAY before this hybrid systems will be linked to a host of sueable stuff like global," winter spring ,summer, or fall, all you have to do is call". Geez I should have been a litigation attorney!!!
  • blymagisterblymagister Member Posts: 4
    I read a good point a while back when somebody was talking about the environmentally friendly factor of the hybrid cars - they pointed out that the NiMH batteries in hybrid cars cost a great deal of energy to produce, and depending on where the Panasonic plant gets its power (Nuclear, Coal, Oil...), the process could create alot of pollution.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm sure the total energy required for 8 years of ownership would be less with that Civic VP he was talking about (which, to be fair, gives up some equipment).

    Toyota was smart, though, they offer NAV and Bluetooth so they can almost pitch it as a entry-level luxury car alternative.

    -juice
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "I'm sure the total energy required for 8 years of ownership would be less with that Civic VP he was talking about (which, to be fair, gives up some equipment).

    Toyota was smart, though, they offer NAV and Bluetooth so they can almost pitch it as a entry-level luxury car alternative. "

    Again (three) asute observations, Yes more energy is expended to build and energy required for ownership over the Am average of 8-8.5 years. Perhaps I should say where this figure comes from and it comes from an American salvage association (do a search) , for the same model car (Cvic hybrid/Civic VP). In regard to the parenthesis observation, yes some equipment is given up. For me it really helps to be focused. I use the VP (wife actually) for commuting purposes. Honda is good for offering different trim levels. So for example I do not have either electric door locks and cruise control, which can come more standard with more costly trim levels. Well the majority folks drive solo in the commute. Also when on the freeway ( can be 102 in summer here) most folks do not open the window but use A/C. So in bumper to bumper traffic, it might not be really safe to use the cruise control? :( And opening and closing four windows (need for electric windows ) is a very low frequency occurrence. So depending on trim level these items can be bundled with other so called luxury items , but in this case the freight is 1500-2000 more. So again, that buys a lot of commute fuel??!! Or 24,667 miles of commuting at 3 per gal and 37 mpg.

    In regards to using the Prius as a mobile office and communications platform, this is probably tailor made for a road warrior like a traveling salesman servicing his territory. As you can probably guess there are not a huge population of these kinds of folks.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > 2005 Prius is 76hp

    That is incorrect.

    You only stated the engine part. Combined with the electric motor, it is 110hp.

    By the way, that 50kW motor delivers 295 lb-ft of torque ...which is significantly more than the 177 lb-ft the 1.9 liter 4-cylinder 100hp automatic turbodiesel 2005 Jetta delivers.

    JOHN
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Drive and believe, torque down low is excellent in the Prius. That's why it never feels slow, even though the numbers aren't that good.

    -juice
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Read an article in NY Times today which said that Toyota has won the PR war for Hybrids in Europe. The European companies believe that diesel was the best solution for MPG over there but Toyota has convinced the public that hybrids is the way to go. That is why they are also making partnerships with American companies (including GM) to develop Hybrids.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/15/automobiles/15hybrid.html

    some snips:

    This was the week that Europe's reluctant auto industry bowed to the popularity of hybrid technology, with a skein of announcements by leading German carmakers that they would follow Toyota's lead in developing these dual gasoline-electric engines.

    But backstage at the Frankfurt International Motor Show, a different picture is emerging: Europe's auto executives remain privately skeptical, even dismissive, about the merits of hybrid technology.

    A spate of press releases may be no more than that - a public relations response to what many in the European auto industry say has been the Japanese industry's shrewd promotion of a so-so technology.

    "This was a marketing battle between Europe and Japan, and diesel engines were Europe's proposal," the chairman of Porsche, Wendelin Wiedeking, said in an interview on Tuesday. "We must accept that we lost.

    But many Europeans see only a niche market. BMW's chairman, Helmut Panke, predicted that hybrid vehicles would eventually account for 2 percent to 3 percent of the industry's sales volume, chiefly in the United States with a smaller presence in Asia and still less in Europe.

    Few European auto executives can even discuss hybrid technology without referring to a recent test conducted by a German trade magazine, Auto Bild, in which a Mercedes-Benz S.U.V. with a diesel engine was pitted against the Lexus RX 400h in a drive from New York to San Francisco. The Mercedes finished with substantially better fuel efficiency.

    Advocates for hybrid technology concede that in long-distance driving, the most advanced diesel engines are more efficient than hybrids. But in cities, with frequent stops and starts, switching between gasoline and electric motors gives drivers an edge in fuel economy.

    "The problem with hybrids is that in economic terms, they don't make a lot of sense," said Garel Rhys, director of the Center for Automotive Research at Cardiff University. Because they use both gasoline and electric motors, he said, hybrids are more expensive than regular cars.

    "
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Yes. It is a good article.

    Modern diesel with a particulate filter is the superior choice from an environmental perspective.

    Not unlike politicians who wrap themselves in the flag and win followings no matter how inconsistent their politics, Toyota has been able to cloak itself in green and a solid mass has bought it without question.

    I really hope fellow greens start waking up and ask the right questions.
  • blymagisterblymagister Member Posts: 4
    Fwd. that to edmunds - I was just quoting the hp they have on their website, which is 76 for the 2005 Prius (they combined the engine and the electric motor for the Civic). And I talk alot about the torque after the little horsepower mishap.
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    I really hope fellow greens start waking up and ask the right questions

    The fact is even the cleanest diesel engine still pollute a lot more than hybrids and Americans are skeptical of diesels. I am curious to know what was the power output of the diesel M-Class. Is it the same powerplant as the E320 CDI ? If so it has a substantial HP deficit compare to the RX400H. And let us face it, MB is nowhere near LEXUS in terms of quality. Diesel powered cars and SUVS really dont sell well outside of Europe.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I'd take an E320/M class CDI all day long over a RX400H. Sure it has less hp, but it also has 369 ft-lbs of torque from 1800-2600rpm, I get excited just thinking about it... The E320CDI has a 0-60 time of 6.6 seconds and gets 37mpg on the highway in a 3800lb car, what's not to like. IMO, consumers and politicians are clueless when it comes to diesels. I guess we can thank GM for that since they are primarily responsible and it's true the older diesels in general left a lot to be desired, as did many gas engines back in the 70's & 80's.

    MB, VW, & BMW make wonderful diesel engines. While I do agree that hybrids have advantages in town, I don't think they can compete with a diesel on hwy or towing. I'd much rather have a diesel in my Suburban than a hybrid system. I don't want to worry about the battery running dead when pulling a load.
  • aquaticexploreaquaticexplore Member Posts: 89
    I couldn't agree more. The best diesels provide real-life fuel economy gains, unlike virtually every hybrid sold in NA, which, one after another, puzzle their buyers when they return gas mileage 20-30% or more lower than what they are supposed to get. I attribute this not to poor merketing by the Euros or superior marketing by Toyo, but to the hangover from GM's venture into diesels heretofore.

    I won't buy a hybrid just so Susan Sarandon and the hollywood hypocrites like me. Sorry.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    The fact is even the cleanest diesel engine still pollute a lot more than hybrids and Americans are skeptical of diesels.

    Not with the new low sulfur fuel. And no batteries or electric engines to manufacture and dispose. As for your second post, thus my call for Greens to stop swallowing the PR line.

    If so it has a substantial HP deficit compare to the RX400H.

    But no doubt substantially more torque.

    And let us face it, MB is nowhere near LEXUS in terms of quality.

    If quality means terminal separation from a driver's road experience, I'll put up with having to take my MB to the shop every now and then.

    Diesel powered cars and SUVS really dont sell well outside of Europe.

    Funny though: Europe produces a lot less greenhouse gas than the US, where the Toyota hybrid PR machine reigns supreme.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    While I do agree that hybrids have advantages in town, I don't think they can compete with a diesel on hwy or towing.

    In the city, Greens belong on bikes or mass transit. In the 'burbs and rural areas, where mass transit rarely exists, best to use what works: diesel with low sulphur fuel.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    In the city, Greens belong on bikes or mass transit. In the 'burbs and rural areas, where mass transit rarely exists, best to use what works: diesel with low sulphur fuel.

    You 100% correct. But their are still many cities that are to small for effective mass transit and still to big for bikes, like here in Wichita. I live within the city limits, mass transit isn't an option, and I surely wouldn't want to ride a bike to go downtown from my house.

    Just give me my diesel and may the tree huggers leave me the hell alone.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Hybrids are much cleaner. But they can add as much as $5,000 to a car's price, compared to a conventional gasoline-powered car. Hybrids like Toyota's Prius are rated at 55 miles per gallon, but in real-world driving haven't delivered much more than 45 mpg.

    Engineers will need to boost fuel economy and driving speed to make these alternatives more appealing to the mass market. And here's the hybrid vs. diesel debate has an interesting wrinkle: Hybrids get their best fuel economy in city driving, while diesel gets the same improvement to efficiency whether the car is puttering along in traffic or cruising on the highway.

    http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/sep2005/nf20050915_5929_db039.htm
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    How come you didn't include this quote...

    Over the next three years, Lutz says, diesel carmakers will have to deploy special technology to scrub emissions of NOx and soot down to minimal levels. The equipment costs several thousand dollars a car.

    JOHN
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    GM, Stanford and Catepillar among others are working on technology that will reduce emissions to gas engine levels at a fraction of the cost of filtering.

    Using biodiesel over petro-diesel eliminates much of the emissions.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    > But then why wouldn't they make a diesel, which scores much better for the EPA ratings?

    I think most manufacturers are taking a wait-and-see approach until the 2007 low-sulfur diesel standards take effect.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I read this article. It is obvious that the writer does not mention ULSD or biodiesel. There are effective catalytic systems to reduce NOx. When sulfur levels in dino diesel are reduced in 2006, then NOx reducing catalysts can be used effectively. Also, there are additives that can be added to dino diesel fuel that will significantly reduce NOx. There are effective particulate filters available, but not in this country. As to carcinogenic particulate, biodiesel significantly reduces this. Gasolene contains benzene, a well known cause of certain cancers.

    What the article fails to mention is that gasolene powered cars, be they hybrid or not, still produce more greenhouse gases than diesels do. Gasolene engines also produce more unburned hydrocarbons than diesel. Also, biodiesel is a carbon neutral fuel. I have yet to hear about anyone making gasolene from WVO or any vegetable oil. Gasolene can be made from coal, but again it is not carbon neutral.

    Some auto makers are putting direct injection systems on gasolene engines. They are also raising the compression ratio on these engines. They may be reducing some of the emissions by using this method of fuel delivery, but they are increasing others like NOx.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I also would agree about the fuel. While I can understand the majority of people who use gassers are hesitant about diesel fuel, I think one has to keep in mind that the gasser diesel debate is at the same cross roads that gassers were in the 70's. Specifically this was the decades long switch from LEADED unregular to UN leaded regular. The products produced during the early days of that switch were absolute garbage. The essential crux of the matter was it was the same fuel source and in fact made NO inroads at all on "conservation" despite assurances to the contrary. If anything this massive one product switch almost guaranteed the conditions we see today.

    Further complications are the MUCH lower % and volume of diesel cars (2.3-2.9%). Ask yourself the question; would the metamorphosis of LEADED regular to UN leaded regular have continued or even been made at all with a 2.3-2.9% of gasser use?

    Yet the product cycle time is FAR faster for diesels than they ever were for unleaded, even with 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet. In fact it is the customers unchangeable habits which are partly to mostly to blame for the stubborn refusal to consider/switch or even have alternative products on the market., while oxymoronically calling for alternative products. This of course gives political weight to BAN vehicles that use alternative fuels. Indeed in CA and 4 more states have a ban on cars that use alternative products ( new car diesel sales). Simultaneously they are calling for less dependance on foreign oil while making an emphasis on domestic oil an almost impossible venture. This ban on alternative products almost puts a strangle hold on continued use of the foreign oil that they purport to want to lessen.

    As a practical matter, the VW TDI already is at the 40 mpg mark that is being advocated as a mandatory standard. It is also being done at a much lower price. So indeed it really doesn't need to be mandated, just LET product be brought to market !!!!! In the case of CA and 4 other states, they are being hypocritical and obstructionist to the very conditions they seem to advocate. In fact the premium paid for diesel engines could be lifted if more were not banned from sale.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    In fact the premium paid for diesel engines could be lifted if more were not banned from sale.

    I think the only premium we are seeing today on the VW TDI is the fact that they sell at MSRP or above. The gas models get discounted. It is the same with hybrids. A $3000 premium on a hybrid becomes $7k when you factor in the selling price of a comparable gas only version. This is a poor time to buy a diesel or a hybrid. It just encourages the dealers to be greedier than they already are.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Perhaps I was not clear, the diesel engine option over a gasser 2.0 and or 1.8t was the reference. But yes the practical effect might be no significant difference.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think you are right there. The Passat in 2005 added $200 for the TDI over the small gas engine. The V6 Passat was more expensive than the TDI. The V6 Passat engine has less torque than the TDI. I think the TDI is a no-brainer if you are buying a VW. That is when the prices come back down to reality.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    EPA may over-rate the hybrids more so than any other cars, but in the real world the fact remains a hybrid still beats a TDI on average.

    Insight > Prius > Civic auto = TDI auto

    That's more or less the way the cookie crumbles in the real world samples obtained by this site:

    http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/

    And they have the largest samples I've seen.

    -juice
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > In the case of CA and 4 other states, they are being hypocritical and obstructionist to the very conditions they seem to advocate.

    No, they are just ahead of the national schedule... which begins with the 2007 model year. All 50 states will begin enforcing those emissions restrictions then.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Using biodiesel over petro-diesel eliminates much of the emissions

    Biodiesel actually *INCREASES* the smog (NOx) emissions, making it a poor solution.

    It is more expensive too. You also need to add in the cost of the additive required to keep it from turning to gel in the winter.

    JOHN
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The fact of the matter is biodiesel is cheaper. Diesel is cheaper. What goes unsaid is the local stae and fed have a lot to lose if people can go more miles per gal. Or use less fuel. As a result while I am not unlike most folks bemoaning the price increases in a gal of fuel, the convoluted policies, environmentall restrictions, shortages, etc really help make a lot of money on the other side. I mean let us face, it not many commodities currently have pricing power.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I agree that greenhybrid gives the best reference to hybrid mileage. I am not sure what the relevance is to TDI mileage. Many are getting 45-50 MPG with the TDI cars. They are both better than the gas only counterparts. The real issue is complexity and longevity. I think that is where the TDI shines. I don't know how anyone can conclude that the hybrids are good for the long haul when they have only been on the American scene for 5-6 years. In the case of the Classic Prius many are less than happy with the huge repair bills on everything from the Cat Convertor to the whole hybrid transmission system. Even the staunchest of hybrid enthusiasts are going to dump them before they hit 100k miles. What does that tell you? Most folks that buy the TDI vehicles are looking at 200k to 500k miles. What is best for the environment? Keeping a car for 100k miles or 200k miles? Remember most of the Nasty pollution is in the manufacturing of a car, not the driving.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Right now, yes, short term that is true.

    But long-term that's not the case. Diesel was 7 cents more on a national average, and low sulfur mixes are supposed to increase diesel prices another 7 cents per. Once gas prices settle, regular, at least, should be cheaper than diesel.

    In Europe, sure, Brazil too. In Brazil diesel costs half what gas costs, you'd be absolutely crazy not to get diesel given the option.

    -juice
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Biodiesel actually *INCREASES* the smog (NOx) emissions, making it a poor solution

    There is a fair bit of science out there that takes issue with your position:

    http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_nox.html

    Biodiesel is not expensive to make. It can be made from agicultural chafe and other agricultural and commericial byproducts currently discarded.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    This study... http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/biodsl.htm ...clearly states that increase in NOx.

    We all know that those emissions can be reduced by other means. But automakers simply haven't bothered yet. Once a diesel achieves PZEV, just like the hybrids do now, it will be a welcome solution. Until then, forget it... especially since the auto-trans MPG is lower.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Even the staunchest of hybrid enthusiasts are going to dump them before they hit 100k miles.

    Really? I have a few friends with over 150,000 miles on their Classic Prius now that are still running just fine. No huge repair bills for them. No feeling of the need to dump.

    Those misconceptions aren't working anymore. Too much real-world data is preventing that.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Biodiesel actually *INCREASES* the smog (NOx) emissions, making it a poor solution.

    That is only half true. The NOx is a result of higher compression needed to cut down on pollution caused by fossil diesel. If the engine was designed to burn biodiesel it could run at a lower compression ratio and eliminate the NOx. It is CO2 neutral and does not contribute to many of the other pollutants that gasoline does. I think you will find that an engine built to be run on biodiesel is a much better overall solution than any of the hybrids on the market today. Plus it eliminates the need for imported oil. Many people are already using biodiesel in Northern climates. Biodiesel gelling is not a big obstacle. The biggest obstacle to biodiesel and diesel in general is ignorance.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have a few friends with over 150,000 miles on their Classic Prius now that are still running just fine.

    That is interesting. They should post their mileage on GH so we can all see how well these cars do after 100k miles. In fact I don't see a single owner of a classic Prius or the new Prius with 100k miles. I see someone just started posting that has 103k miles. I guess they bought one that was dumped at a 100k miles. There is always the cabby in Vancouver with over 100k miles to fall back on.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Many people are already using biodiesel in Northern climates.

    That is not true. Minnesota is by far the largest producer of biodiesel in the US. Later this year, the state mandate to require B2 will take effect. Supply has been too low to allow for that 2% mix until recently.

    E10 on the other hand, is dramatically more common. All gasoline vehicles in Minnesota have been using it (10% ethanol) for about a decade now. The E20 mandate will take effect in 7 years. Clearly, ethanol as an alternative has a big lead. It's cleaner too. And the latest study using hybrid corns states there is a 33,196 BTU energy gain per gallon after production & distributions. The days of net loss are over.

    JOHN
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "Right now, yes, short term that is true.

    But long-term that's not the case. Diesel was 7 cents more on a national average, and low sulfur mixes are supposed to increase diesel prices another 7 cents per. Once gas prices settle, regular, at least, should be cheaper than diesel.

    In Europe, sure, Brazil too. In Brazil diesel costs half what gas costs, you'd be absolutely crazy not to get diesel given the option.

    -juice "

    Perhaps the references are misunderstood. I am not talking of the retail sales price of gas vs but of manufacturing prices. Diesel takes less resources and cost less to manufacture. The real problem is the real story is NOT soundbiteable.

    Also oxymoronically, unleaded gas hybrids do no lessen the dependence on foreign oil!! It is amazing the eco types do no see this. IPerhaps this part of the issue will become recognized in another 25 years. :(:)

    On the other hand diesel, bio diesel can be run from farm crops, crop waste, normal manufacturing process waste, animal farm waste, even MC D's used fryer oil. Soybean crops have been a very dominate cash crop in AM for a very long time, and will continue to be.

    The cost to process Mc D's used fryer oil is app .42 -.75 cents per gal at the small batch level !!!! Keep in mind this is at an unleaded gasoline WHOLESALE price of 1.95 per gal !!!!!????? Think you can samll batch process with ligh sweet crude????

    It also meets the environmental definition of a "renewable " resource. But even I know that the USA is trying to kill farming as a sector they want MORE folks into. So that I am clear, the policy has been to get folks off the land, off farming etc but the midwest. This has been the policy for 50 plus years.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Once a diesel achieves PZEV

    Ford and Mercedes both have PZEV diesel vehicles. They do require ULSD to achieve that rating. I am sure they will proliferate the market by the end of next year.

    PS
    B20 is very common in South Dakota. That is all my partner runs in his Powerstroke Ford. And it is 20 cents cheaper than regular gas at the co-op.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think that process is brilliant but there wouldn't be enough to power a national fleet, so that'll remain on the fringe, a niche withint the diesel niche. Very cool, though. The exhaust even smells good. :D

    -juice
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 236,760
    Hmmm.... I could eat more french fries, to increase the availability of biodiesel.. but, then I'd be carrying around more weight, decreasing my fuel mileage....

    What to do? What to do?

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I really don't know how to say this and be PC, so let me say it and then we can PC it :(:)

    First of all,we are applying a 40,000 ft altitude straight and level flight with a three to 5 mar tuney (yes I know it is a martini) chaser. It seems the underlying assumption is one day someone will announce the discovery of an alternative to oil , With the litany of humanitarian benefits and none of the disadvantages. No pollution, no cancer causing links, no law suit, no risk, good for the environment, no loss to the current oil infrastruture investments, no danger, dare I say free, etc etc

    (dream on, and you wonder why shows like DR PHIL are so popular)

    The fact is the most effective is the battle in the trenches. So for example in Berkeley, CA argueably the most "environmental" or left of center around, an entreprenuerial type noticed a WHOLE almost continuous stream of waste oil products that go to the dump/recycle center etc per year. Of course one has to apply the usually lifetime disposal dollars and associated costs . So to make a long story short he got it all together using the principle of "when life give you lemons make lemonade" and started to process these waste oils to biodiesel. In fact, they produce app 40k gals of the stuff yearly. The hardets row to hoe was the process of securing the local municipal and local, county, state, fed, environmental permits, the left of center establishment set up to keep pond scum like him from doing what he did. They now have a coop that sells biodiesel and the left winger types are now on board in a big way. Bekeley for example has a program to run biodiesel in their transportation agencies (TA) and last I check sold biodiesel to members at like 2.75 to 3 dollars per gal.

    Of course the Mc DEES fryer oil gig is a microcosm of the greater picture.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Ford and Mercedes both have PZEV diesel vehicles.

    How many?

    Honda claims the most fuel-efficient vehicle available here, the Insight. But they only built 150 of them for the 2005 model year. That is such a pitiful quantity it really doesn't mean squat.

    Toyota built 100,000 Prius (all PZEV rated) for the United States alone this year. That's a real number, #3 in fact for their 2005 cars sold here.

    JOHN
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "Stir Fry? Light cooking oil?

    Would that yield less energy content, thus hurting range, though? ;) "

    To most gasser users this reference almost never fails to be the lighter side of this debate., despite the fact that use fryer oil is TOTALLY for real.

    However the chemistry is still in the remaining used oil minus the contaminates needed for a gal of diesel. :) There are various web sites detailing some of the various "moon shiner type" processes.'
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Jokes aside, I used to work at the local burger joint (1980s) and even back then our waste oil was recycled. I was told they used to to make soap. :confuse:

    I would hope it's not ending up as land fill.

    -juice
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Thus the Berkeley Municipal dump NEXUS and reference. :)

    (turning your HOPES into reality. :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would hope it's not ending up as land fill

    Pacific Biodiesel began to attack an even larger problem for the Landfill – grease trap waste. With the addition of a custom designed grease trap oil processor, PacBio was then able to supply its own boiler fuel, again while diverting 140 tons of grease trap oil from the Landfill each month. This biofuel product is available for considerably less than petroleum diesel fuel

    http://www.biodiesel.com/why_biodiesel.htm
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Toyota built 100,000 Prius (all PZEV rated) for the United States alone this year. That's a real number, #3 in fact for their 2005 cars sold here

    According to Autosite, Toyota sold 72k Prius this year. Not bad. But Toy sold more - a lot more - Camrys, Corrollas, Tacomas, Tundras, Highlanders, ES series, RX series.

    In any event, the point of the current string is not how many Prius toy sold, but rather the garbage that is coming out from the Toy PR wagon about the Prius (and now RX) hybrid sales.

    And I and a number of others here believe the overall environmental benefit will not come from you and your many good Prius driving fans, but from a nation on whole signing onto the EU model and driving diesels using low sulphur and biodiesel.
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