Pontiac GTO v. Subaru STi

kodename · August 2005

The New Dodge Charger had me feeling the same way when I first saw pre production photos. In it's favor however is that the new Charger is styled to make a statement, and it succeeds in the eyes of many buyers. The 2 door hardtops just don't sell in the numbers it once did. I think Chrysler took a chance, made a bold statement, and the public is responding. I'd like to see a 2 door, but it looks like a future Dodge Challenger may be in the works as a 2 door?? Maybe it's just me..the Charger seems to work as a looker,where the Goat don't. If fuel prices go to $3+ a gallon, they all may be bargins sitting idle on used car lots in a few short years. :-( ..... Yeah , the hood scoops help a little, (way too small) ...now where's the hood mounted tach, and how about a more vintage pontiac split grill, something that looks to it's heritige without going overboard. Bill C.

sensai · August 2005

From BBC's Top Gear web site:

Power Lap times:
Subaru Impreza STI - 1.30.1
Vauxhall Monaro VXR - 1.30.16

The Vauxhall does supposedly have a few suspension tweaks that the GTO does not have (nobody is sure exactly what though), but it does show what the Monaro platform is capable of.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

Poor GTO sales in 1971 have translated to high collector interest and pricing today. All '71 Judges were 455-powered and today they're some of the rarest, most desirable GTOs as far as collectors are concerned.

I personally think the new Charger is UGLY, my opinion. 300C to me is the better looker, but even that exhibits the brick on wheels styling.

Hood scoops are functionl on the 2005, they vent the engine compartment.

For 2008 GM is supposed to go more retro on an all new GTO, time will tell.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

BTW, I read somewhere that the Charger is not selling as well as Chrysler had hoped. There is an awfull lot on dealers lots by me.

i dont feel the new Charger should be compared to models such as the Mustang and GTO . It just seems to me that this car is in a different category. Regardless of what chrysler says this car isnt a true competitor of the Mustang/GTO because "most" people who are looking to buy a Mustang GT or Mustang Cobra or GTO aren't going to even consider a four door car and the majority of V6 Mustang buyers seem to be people looking for a sporty looking car which again wouldnt lend itself to a four door model such as the charger.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

I got a thumbs up from a New Infiniti M45 driver today. He got up to the light next to me and asked me about the car, said nice car etc. Not bad for a car that is supposedly bland and doesn't turn heads. Too funny.

freak show · August 2005

HMMMM...just funny thinking wat kinda guy was driving tht M45..if i were in there i certainly woulndt have even looked at it cause (u like it or not) toooo BLAND....i make my point u seee a GTO.....sparks dont fly......i know it is one hell of a power house BUT stilll look at tht thing it just dont turn heads!!!!!!
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gxpgtodanman · August 2005

He was about 35 to 40 yrs old and had traded in his BMW M series for the infiniti M45 in our brief conversation at the traffic light. Just goes to show that the car does turn heads...

ateixeira · August 2005

I think most enthusiasts will recognize what a GTO is. Most laymen will not.

That guy has owned an M and then another M so he probably knows a thing or two about cars.

-juice

freak show · August 2005

hey i neva said tht i was not aware of the car potentials...my point was just that its appearence doesnt stack upto its potential.....my point made..neways bout the age its looks like ppl in their middle or semi old age liking GTO but in ma age group (im 23) i just dont find it exciting...alll of ma friends n i (ps we do know a bit bout cars) just find it too boring for our taste....
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gxpgtodanman · August 2005

I am in my early 30's age wise and my wife is in her late 20's as GTO drivers. We find it exciting. My brother who is 22 loves driving the car and likes it. He would buy one, but can't afford the $30k to $35k price tag right now.

Many of the people on ls1gto web are in their 20's and 30's too.

kodename · August 2005

Hey gxpqt, I'm happy your so happy with your GTO. Since your age became a part of the issue , I'll say that I was in H.S. when the GTO Judge hit the market, and it wasn't a bad car , but I was a Chevy Guy at the time. I watched the GTO evolve from the LeMans and go on to be a car of its own to be reconded with during those years of the original Hemi's,Chevelles , etc. The GTO was never the fastest, but it was no slug either for its day. Just another muscle car. It's forte was in its look , it's style. Now , maybe I'm an old slug , but I have soured so much on GM cars, I no longer give anything built by GM the benefit of the doubt. I'm close to feeling the same way when it comes to Ford and Chrysler. I won't buy a Mustang, but I like what they(ford) has done to make a modern , yet classic look.Same goes for the Charger and 300 on the Chrysler side. Since your making the payments on your GTO , I hope your love affair with it goes on. Please stop hammering on what a "looker" it is. It's got a big motor and it's fast and it handles better than any 1970's GM car. As for looks , even though subjective(Their are Astek fan clubs out there) it's very vanilla. And that's just fine with everybody, you don't need to justify your car. FYI , last week someone told me our Mitsubishi Endeavor was a good looking vehicle, I didn't bother to post it anywhere, may it was sarcasm? :-) Bill C.

freak show · August 2005

thanks man...u make a point again which i have made a dozen of times...love the performance but comeon the STYLING!!!!!...never said it was a sucker just said GM did nothin in this thing to stand out...yet another GM's product...i guesss....i have had people calll ma WRX (bug-eyed) ugly...well trust me at first i felt the same way but once behind the wheel it quickly goes away....as for gxpqt ur brother if ma big bro had a good performing car i would also be drooling over it..but ma bro drives an accord and ml320 sooo no sparks....welll in brand case suburu always grows on ya and i can say it is true once u drive one its hard to go back to a diff brand..bef WRX had a civic si like it but now having driven a subie its a sucker.... ma friends (non subie fans) love ma car tooo but they all drive either hondas mazdas or toyo's.....they all love their cars but they love ma car once it comes down to performance
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gxpgtodanman · August 2005

One of the reasons I bought the GTO was because it was NOT built by GM

Built by Holden in Austrailia. As per Car & Driver, interior/seats in GTO is the best of ANY GM vehicle, including Caddy & Vette. I have a supposedly top notch rated foreign/Japanese car, Acura 3.2, and its been nothing but problems, tranny's etc.

""Please stop hammering on what a "looker" it is. It's got a big motor and it's fast and it handles better than any 1970's GM car. As for looks , even though subjective(Their are Astek fan clubs out there) it's very vanilla.""

Please stop hammering on how the GTO is supposedly Vanilla-bland-dull-ugly-FAILURE, etc. Yes looks are subjective. I think New Mustang is UGLY, un-original, RETRO-BRICK on wheels with CHEAP interior from 1980's, my opinion. New GTO is more then just a big motor and handling, it has very good build quality and a very GOOD interior/seats. As for the 300C, looks like a BRICK on wheels to me, ever drive one? Very nasty blind spots, hard to see out of it from those short windows. My opinion.

Whats next, is Ford going to RETRO the 1987 GT Fox body, five yrs from now? LOL! I'm glad POntiac did NOT retro GTO.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

It's a Holden Product, not a GM product. GM did NOT design GTO. Holden gave it a European look and designed it themselves.

WRX is very good performer & for the price too, Too stiff of a ride for me. The GTO is more refined car. I wanted a Vette, but I needed the backseat. I never liked F bodies because of their STIFF rides and Cheap interiors and so-so build quality. So Finally when the Monaro, oops GTO came out, it was a no brainer to me.

I would take WRX over Civic SI as well.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

Yeah lots of thought. Ford used an old design that they already did. Real original and thoughtful. but I wish the retro, because we can't design something new, stuff will stop.

ateixeira · August 2005

Holden is a wholly owned subsidiary of GM, but I think I know what you meant (GM-USA). They operate independently enough to come up with some interesting products.

Check out their utes, i.e. the 2 door pickups with beds and that V8.

-juice

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

Holden is continuing to develope the RWD Zeta that GM here has supposedly abandoned. Holden's next generation Holden Commodore is already due out early next year.. They are going to have a new 2 door Monaro based off of it out for 2007 or 2008 latest.

I like that 2 door V8 car with pickup bed. Kind of like an El Camino version of the GTO.

merrycynic · August 2005

j4shaddy · August 2005

do u no if the subaru impreza sti has an optional automatic transmission

sputterguy · August 2005

Interesting. I liked the '03 and '04 M45. My wife hated it, but I liked it. I thought it had a certain retro look to it. It was overpriced, and had some serious drawbacks, but it was quick and with 18 inch wheels handled quite nicely too.

dat2 · August 2005

I liked the looks of the old M45 too, and like the '04 GTO, it was overpriced on the sticker but was discounted a lot on the lots. Guess the new M35/45 is really well lilked by the reviews and is kicking the [non-permissible content removed] of the Beamers and Acuras. :surprise:

freak show · August 2005

no sti doent come with an auto...thts the whole point..... auto's are usually for suckers who are too lazy ...comeon ask neone who would want a auto in cars like these..it misses the whole point of the car ie "drivers car" where the driver has everthing in his hand and seriously i dont want the tranny to tell me wat gear i wanna drive in i can do it maself!!!!!!!
PS have never owned or drove a atuo tranny over 100 miles(can say this proudly).....it is too boring rush hour or not doesnt matter

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gxpgtodanman · August 2005

". auto's are usually for suckers who are too lazy ...comeon ask neone who would want a auto in cars like these..it misses the whole point of the car"

The WRX has an auto tranny option. Why not on the Sti? More then 50% of sales of Vette & GTO are automatic I got an auto GTO and i love it no work shifting gears all the time , the auto transmission is pretty advanced, it is FASTER then the stick GTO, 0-60 and 1/4 mile. Where I live in NY/NJ area, I wouldn't want manual. Too much traffic.

ateixeira · August 2005

That model gets a heavily reinforced 6 speed tranny.

The stock auto can actually handle 300hp, in modified cars it manages that much power reliably.

But the 6 speed manual fits the image of the halo car better. Plus you can get an auto WRX if you're not after peak performance first and foremost. The '06 base WRX gets the 2.5T with less lag and more torque than the old 2.0T engine.

-juice

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

With the GTO you get PEAK performance with either manual or automatic. Auto is 1/10th faster. That is assuming you have a guy perfectly shifting the manual. Automatic will win on a more consistent basis then stick. This on GTO.

Ironic that GM makes the 6spd manual an OPTION on the Vette-GTO, years ago the Auto was optional, go figure?

rorr · August 2005

"Ironic that GM makes the 6spd manual an OPTION on the Vette-GTO, years ago the Auto was optional, go figure?"

Actually, I think it's called 'knowing your market'. They understand that most potential consumers of these vehicles (for better or worse) desire an automatic tranny over a manual tranny.

Also, if you had determined prior to your purchase that in GM tests, the manual tranny was a 1/10 quicker than the automatic, would you have purchased the manual? I'm guessing that your purchase of a GTO with an automatic had nothing to do with a 1/10 second advantage and everything to do with convenience. Just my .02......

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

" I'm guessing that your purchase of a GTO with an automatic had nothing to do with a 1/10 second advantage and everything to do with convenience. Just my .02......"

Actually it had to do with my wife NOT being able to drive a manual shift. She doesn't want to learn either. Yes conveniance too. Lot of traffic around here.

rorr · August 2005

"Actually it had to do with my wife NOT being able to drive a manual shift. She doesn't want to learn either. Yes conveniance too. Lot of traffic around here."

Very valid reasons for buying an automatic equipped car (I went through the same thing with my wife, except she was at least willing to learn since she understood that I would always have a manual in MY car and that occasionally she would need to drive it).

I was just pointing out that if one naturally leans towards a manual tranny, a 1/10 second advantage in 0-60 shouldn't be the determining factor for choosing an automatic instead. Particularly when there is a few hundred dollar price penalty and (perhaps) a gas mileage penalty for chosing the automatic as well. Yet virtually every time you discuss the manual tranny vs. the auto tranny in the GTO, you bring up the 1/10 second advantage of the automatic as though THAT were the determining factor.

Personally, I've heard more than a few reports that the poor shift linkage in the manual tranny GTO is more than enough reason to chose the automatic instead.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

"shouldn't be the determining factor for choosing an automatic instead. Particularly when there is a few hundred dollar price penalty and (perhaps) a gas mileage penalty for chosing the automatic as well"

True, I see your point. But we are not buying GTO or Mustang GT for their gas mileage, even though it's better then many SUV-truck on road !! Yeah you do pay the $1300 gas guzzler on auto GTO, but you pay $695 for the stick on GTO as an option! Auto is only really costing $605 more. Again anyone buying these cars can afford either tranny/gas mileage. BTW, isn't the auto on Mustang GT an $995 option?

The manual shift linkage was not as bad as some people made it out to be. I drove M6 GTO and it was ok. There are some fixes for it.

rorr · August 2005

"But we are not buying GTO or Mustang GT for their gas mileage....."

Agree 100% (or the STi either to keep us on topic

).

All I'm saying is that few people would choose the automatic simply for 1/10 second advantage when it cost $600 more and probably slurps a bit more gas (paying extra for even worse mileage? Yeah, but check out that extra 1/10 second I can lop off my 0-60 time!!! Woo hoo!)

I've no idea what the automatic option runs on the Mustang. Don't care. Since I always intend to drive stick, they could be priced exactly the same and it would make no diff to me.

"The manual shift linkage was not as bad as some people made it out to be."

Since I've never driven the GTO, I'll take your word for it. That being said, I think a LOT of the 'issues' people bring up about ALL of these cars (GTO, STi, or even Mustang) are blown way out of proportion by who ever is trying to score 'points' in the discussion. Just like some folks gripe about a slightly balking shifter or lack of trunk space (guilty

) or whatever on the GTO, others harp about the ride or boy racer styling on the STi or the lack of IRS or dash design on the Mustang. In my opinion, they are ALL good cars; each with their own strengths (and weaknesses) which all apeal to different types of buyers.

mikey432 · August 2005

I read some of these arguments on this GTO vs Subaru Sti thread. I think this is the most bizaare rivalry. Shouldn't GTO worry more about Mustangs and Chargers? and Subaru worry about Infinitis, Toyotas, Honda's etc. I must say I am GTO bias. RWD raw american horsepower has always caught my fancy. I think both cars are pretty amazing street cars and the only way to prove anything is going out and actually racing. So far this argument looks like it's going in circles. Let's get a Sti vs GTO video on here. Oh yeah, sorry for posting this in the middle of an auto vs manual debate.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

"I read some of these arguments on this GTO vs Subaru Sti thread. I think this is the most bizaare rivalry. Shouldn't GTO worry more about Mustangs and Chargers? and Subaru worry about Infinitis, Toyotas, Honda's etc."

I agree, it is a strange rivalry. Most likely either buyer, STI or GTO is NOT cross-shopping either vehicles. One is a AWD 4 door sedan, and the other one a 2 door RWD sports coupe. They are both fast, performance orientated no doubt.

ateixeira · August 2005

Actually I'd say for the STi, EVO is enemy #1. The R32 was #2 for a while there but it went out of productions, perhaps the MazdaSpeed MS6 will fill that role now.

-juice

06stiown3r · August 2005

I most certainly agree! GTO's are great and all but why put it up against the STI? That's like comparing a rabbit to a kangaroo... The only similarity is that they are both fast cars. No offense by all means! I havent read all the posts for this thread. Are you trying to see which is better on the track or which is better on the 1/4 mile? Cause man, bring the stock GTO to me. I would love to hear that big v8 growl it's heart out while I open the gap. The only place I would be worried would be lets say.. Daytona or something. :surprise:

kbobe67 · October 2005

Continuing the trend of mismatched comparisons, Consumer Reports October issue features a square off between the 2005 GTO and a food processor:

"The Waring MixMaster 2500 Blender/Food processor proved superior in
handling most types of foods. Its convenient quart-sized hopper could
easily accomodate large pieces of brocolli and cauliflower without jamming.
The Pontiac GTO had no hopper assembly at all, and while a considerable
amount of produce could be loaded into the vehicle through an open driver's
side window, the GTO proved unable to process the food regardless of how
fast the engine was running."

This seems especially harsh:

"The GTO's much-vaunted independent rear suspension was no match for the
MixMaster's ability to jullienne potatoes that were paper thin and
perfectly cut. In our "cole slaw" torture test, the MixMaster's variable
speeds and interchangeable blades made quick work of ten pounds of cabbage,
while the 400 hp GTO just sat there rumbling loudly and using up gas."

And this really strikes close to home:

"Despite an MSRP nearly three thousand times higher than the Waring
MixMaster, Pontiac's GTO proved to be a disappointing food processor in
virtually every metric, a fact that many GTO owners will no doubt find
troubling."

Next Week: Ebonite VX Blastmaster Bowling Ball vs 2005 Pontiac GTO

ateixeira · October 2005

I can actually imagine a little tire spin and some drifting to get all those pins knocked down.

-juice

merrycynic · October 2005

Is that what they mean by English in English Town NJ?

jusflyinby · October 2005

Believe it or not, I've cross shopped both these cars this past summer. A lot of people making these claims have no room to say anything because I'll bet most of you probably never walked up to one of these cars, let alone sit in it or drive it to form a good opinion.

I'll tell you one thing, don't knock the GTO 'till you try it. I honestly hated them, because I was another one of the mass public sheep who didn't like it because of its look. People hear GTO and expect larger than life. If it was called a G8 or Monaro, you wouldn't hear half the complaints. Well, anyway, I drove it and it instantly won itself as a strong contender. Mind you I was in the market for a Mustang GT, G35 coupe, Rx8 or STi with a GTO not even on the radar screen.

Each car has its pro's and cons, but in the end, I got similar performance of the STi, with more comfort, more luxury, much cheaper insurance, better gas mileage, all at a significant lower price tag then every other car I wanted. And looks wise, at 23, most my close friends ranging from 19-26 put the GTO ahead of the STi, but both cars at the bottom of the list, lol. Bland can be interpreted as sharp and clean. The girls chose the GTO hands down but I dunno if thats a compliment, lol.

And those of you claiming the interior is good in the STi... cmon... the rug is blue turf that matches the crap in my boat! lol. Go sit in a GTO then re-evaluate your opinion.

Costs not a factor, then:
Fun, fast, racer like driving. STi > GTO
Smooth cruising, low to top end instant power, cross country. GTO > STi

kbobe67 · October 2005

Sounds about right. I think age plays a factor. I'd have been all over the STi when I was young and cool, but once 40 rolls around you feel pretty stupid in anything with a rear wing. So what did you end up with?

jusflyinby · October 2005

I ended up buying the GTO. It offered everything the STi had, except for cornering, which it made up for with amenities, torque, exhaust note, and comfort

. Not to mention it was all around cheaper, insurance, cost, and fuel economy (sorta on the fuel economy :P ).

I hear ya on the age thing, but a good number of the people in the goat club around here are around my age. And suprisingly just about all my friends said go for the GTO over the STi too. (I spent a good week mulling it over and asking for 100's of opinions,

)

kbobe67 · October 2005

I think the GTO is a great buy for any age. Somehow the car slips under the radar for most folks, which is unfortunate. Just picked up the new Car & Driver, and Pontiac swung for a two page spread on the GTO. My guess is that interest will really heat up in 06 as the last of the cars become available, and we'll be glad we got our 04's and 05's when we did.

Meanwhile, I figured out how to make the gas costs a little more palatable. I got a GM Mastercard that I use as a gas card. I'm getting 5% of the cost of every fill-up back as money towards my next GTO, if there ever is one.

sputterguy · October 2005

Great reporting. Keep us posted.

sputterguy · October 2005

Right on dude! You made the right choice.

freak show · October 2005

hmmm i dunooo..cause im also ur age group....b/w drive a wrx 02....hmm well in ma friends circle (18-25) id say sti is the favorite and evo close behind...we also loved the r32 and eager to see a mazdaspeed6 (the new civic si and the tc(with the upcoming intercooler) also looks promising)..but never had any repect for the goat...just our opinion....doesnot stack up to the goat's name (looks wise tht is).. neways congrads to u for ur new ride enjoy it man!!!!!
FrEa|<

kbobe67 · October 2005

Somehow I'm totally OK with this guy and his buddies not digging the GTO. At least I think he doesn't dig it. It's hard to know for sure without a translator. I'm not buying the GTO heritage bit, though. Back when the old Goat was king, this guy was an unfertilized ovum in a chick who was still in middle school.

Really, I'm not sure why they put these two cars together in the first place. Motor Trend did a comparison between the GTO and a Mercedes CLK AMG. The gist of the piece was that for the price of the Benz you could buy two GTOs, and while the GTO cost half as much as the Benz, it delivered 90% of the goods.

The GTO is a tough car to pin down. It has no direct domestic competition. All it has in common with the tiny Subaru is that it's fast. The Subie gets it in standard Japanese style by thrashing its little heart out and relying on superb engineering to keep from exploding. The Goat gets the job done with displacement and brute force in the drivetrain, and refinement everywhere else. I was doing 100 on the interstate a couple of days ago, in 6th at 2,000 rpm, smooth and as quiet as a Lexus. Felt pretty good.

I had an SVX, one of my all time favorite cars... Now that car lined up nicely with the GTO. Heavy car, big displacement, refined ride and interior. Like the GTO, most buyers didn't "get" the SVX, with its funky greenhouse and windows within windows, but I had a 300ZX back then as well and the Subie was the better of the two cars. Subaru needs to bring that thing back.

Hope I didn't piss that guy off by saying his mom was in middle school when the old Goat was king.

freak show · October 2005

well non taken..but i guess u went a lil bit overboard with those remarks!!!!(ps when the goat WAS the king ma mom and ma dad were in hs and in pakistan so there is noway they would know the goat cause we never got it there)..guess thts y i love the japanese cars!!!!!
FrEa|<

jlagman · October 2005

"And those of you claiming the interior is good in the STi... cmon... the rug is blue turf that matches the crap in my boat! lol. Go sit in a GTO then re-evaluate your opinion. "

I think the "crappiness" of the STi interior is blown way out of proportion, sure it doesn't have a roomy and luxurious interior but it was never meant to have one. The seats are bolstered and wrapped in escaine/alacantara in order to grip the driver while still using 3-point seatbelts. It's not the most comfortable car to ride in but it's far from being one of the worst. For the most part, people will be far too exhilirated by the driving experience to notice that the seats aren't made of leather or the suspension is a little stiff. Under normal driving conditions (aside from the little instances of boost) the STi remains a very docile and drivable car.

stiracer13 · November 2005

I own an sti and im only 19 where I live its a head turner I think people need to stop hating what they cant have go drive your gto you think your tough in american muscle its gm probably produced in canada with the rest of their cars boo boo the stis interior is crappy your high buddy its a rally car not a cady its suspension is stiff try taking a turn at 100 in loose suspension see where you go know cars before you talk down on them obviously gto boy you dont know anything and just spend money cause the sti will out handle the gto any day anyone can drive a straight line by the way I have beat vettes in my STi not once but 4 times and cobra mustangs so keep your 5000000 pound gto and the ugly girls to go with it cause in reality the STi does what it was built for

rorr · November 2005

"I think people need to stop hating what they cant have"

I sincerely doubt there is a GTO owner on the planet that 'couldn't have' a STi if they had wanted a STi.

"..know cars before you talk down on them..."

First, the GTO is produced in Australia, not in Canada. Second, the GTO doesn't have a 'cady' type of suspension (in fact, the GTO (Monaro) was developed with Australian roads in mind which require a stiffer suspension than your 'typical' GM car). So, you may want to learn a bit more about the GTO before you talk down on them.

b4z · November 2005

November 28, 2005 issue of autoweek
has an article about the Sport Tuner craze peaking.
I posted this in another forum and a guy who
works for an aftermarket company says that sales of
Tuner parts peaked about 12 months ago.
Exhausts, body mods, wheels, etc.

The show at SEMA had an equal amount of domestic musclecars and they feel that the 2 will coexist for a while but the trend is toward RWD performance vehicles.

It was bound to happen but this is one of the first articles I have seen on the Sport Tuner craze declining.

Pontiac GTO v. Subaru STi

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