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Comments
BTW...depreciation is only an issue if you buy new vehicles all the time. If you keep them for the long haul, it doesn't make much difference at the end. And with extended warranties, you're usually better off saving the couple of grand and just paying for whatever breaks.
Also BTW, the Freestyle is more of a Ford 500 wagon masquerading as a cross-over, then a minivan masquerading as a cross-over!
-juice
Hosts, I can't get anything out of the search feature, it just "spins" I am afraid indefinitely.
How can we get a search to the sound-proofing posts for the Forester?
Thanks,
John
p0926, "Subaru XT Turbo Forester" #3012, 16 Jan 2004 1:26 pm
The search seems to like sound proofing better than sound-proofing btw.
Steve, Host
Joh
erictooley, "Subaru Forester" #11830, 5 Aug 2003 9:32 am
Also, more than a few have indicated that the Geolanders are not an especially quiet tire.
John
You need to use two materials to achieve good results. The first material is called B-quiet ultimate
http://www.b-quiet.com/ultimate.html
And the second material is called ensolite mlc foam. I used the 1/4" stuff. You need some 3M auto spray adhesive to stick the foam in place. On the doors it is best to apply the foam to the inside of the door panels.
Anyway, the b-quiet stuff once applied sticks like crazy. No way is it going to fall off. You can double up on too if you want. Inside the doors I only covered about 40% of the sheet metal.
The end result is that my stereo sounds twice as good and the only noise I hear is the wind.
Pete
In my prior car (a '91 Subaru Loyale), I put $7K worth of Alpine & a/d/s/ gear. And that was on a $9k-out-the-door car.
It appears that, fortunately, in the subsequent 15 years, the _average_ quality and sophistication levels of car audio has increased dramatically. I had digital crossovers, digital time-alignment, and fiber optic interconnects in 1993, but the first two are now standard features of most non-bargain-basement car head units today. My guess is that the system I end up with for my 06 FXT will run somewhere between $3K-$4K. I'm currently looking at the new Pioneer AVIC-Z1 head unit. The -Z1 is the NEW variant. It will fit in the FXT's Double DIN dash hole, does hard drive (not DVD) -based navigation, has 10GB of user-accessible storage on the hard disk for MP3s, does iPOD control, has appropriate line-in/line-out connections, does (satellite) XM radio and XM NavTraffic, and last but not least, comes with a Bluetooth (wireless) cellular interface. It's going to sell for between $2000 for $2500, but that's a hell of alot of capability in a single unit. The -Z1 is due in stores in the next month or so. I just saw it at CES in Las Vegas last month. If I discover anything funky about the -Z1, my backup choice will be the Single DIN form factor Blaupunkt "Bremen MPx6." I say "MPx6" because I don't know the exact model number of the new replacement for the now-discontinued Bremen MP74. One of Blaupunkt's practices is that the rightmost digit of the model number indicates the model's year of introduction. This explains why they discontinued the Bremen MP74 and blew the remaining inventory out through Crutchfield last summer. While the Bremen doesn't do Navigation, it does have a lot of line-in/line-out flexibility, an add-on "Thummer" steering wheel control, and a bunch of interesting electronics (dual FM radio antenna feeds, etc.) options. At $600 or less, it's also considerably cheaper. With its multi-line-input capability, I was thinking about adding an MPtronix MuzicVault which is a portable Big Honkin' Hard Disk for the car. Since the Bremen is Single DIN form factor, you'll also need to add a Single DIN "Subaru Dash Pocket" to fill up the empty space not occupied by the head unit. I bought one of those online just in case. I think I paid something like $20 for this Subaru factory accessory. Finally, there's the non-USA-options import market. There are other "foreign" Double DIN head units sold for Subarus in overseas markets. To get an idea of what's available, see www.audiocubes.com . If you're heavily into FM radio, pay CLOSE attention to the differences in the FM frequency spectrum between the U.S. and foreign markets. Even with an available converter, you're NOT going to be able to receive either the very top or the very bottom of the FM frequency band. Pick your poison.
I did sit in a 9-2 a few months ago, but I didn't like the seat side bolsters, so that disqualified it for me. However, since that vehicle is largely sourced from Subaru...
Search Tire Rack for tires that fit, then look at the evaluations under road noise.
Consumer Reports also tests tires and rates them for noise. I bought some Falken Ziex 512s for my Miata after reading a review in that mag, though I wasn't picking based on noise being my primary criteria.
-juice
I recently test drove a Forester XS and I noticed that there was a slight lag in the reaction when I stomped on the gas pedal, while I was driving along at about 70 km/hr. Has anyone else felt this?
Does the engine need to get broken in?
Thanks,
pogs
Roll into the throttle gradually, you actually step off quicker.
-juice
- Is there a way to get the best value for the geolanders? Some place where they will swap them? What replacement tyres would uou suggest?
- Should the ensolite be applied only on the inside of the door panels, and the b-quiet on the other areas - under back seat, cargo floor and hood. For the hood I guess there is no risk of fire.
What about on the firewall inside, and around the transmission area, and around the front seat.
Any other suggestions / tips?
Thanks!
Steve, Host
Doors: apply the b-quiet to the inside of the exterior sheet metal, cover about 50% or whatever you can reach. Use utility scissors to cut the stuff and wd-40 to clean the scissors. Apply the1/8" foam to the inside of the door panels using the 2M auto spray adhesive. Spray the adhesive on the foam. You want to cover as much of the panel as you can but 80%+ is fine. Of course, don't cover the speaker holes. Work slow at first to get the hang of it but like I said you get to be a pro before too long.
Hood: take the hood liner off and apply some of the b-quiet to the smooth sheet metal between the ribs. You will need to get some replacement hoodliner retainers because the subaru ones can't be re-used. Dorman 799-145 headliner retainers work fine. Buy them at O'reillys, etc.
Under the back seat: Unbolt the back seat and remove, apply a lot of the b-quiet, in some places 2 layers and then glue the 1/4 foam in large pieces to the b-quiet.
Cargo floor and spare tire well: repeat above. This area will take the most time. You will see that the quarter panels and wheel wells have a thick foam sound proofing material on them.
I didn't do any place else because I didn't want to mess with the seats. And I didn't put any around the engine compartment because I didn't want to spoil the looks. In fact, there is really no way one can tell that I did the sound damping project. The areas I did are the top road noise areas and you will be impressed with the difference.
I took my used geolanders (600 miles) to a used tire place would sell them for me. Might take a while but I know the guy. Your subaru dealer (used car guy) might buy them from you since they need good used tires. My dealer offered $150 for the 4 tires. I switched to Goodyear ComforTred. Check tirerack.com for imformation on tires.
If you need more information feel free to email me. I would do a lot of research on the net on the topic before you start. Some good pictures and experiences out there. I very happy i did it! The hardest part is taking off the door panels so you might want to get an auto trim guy to do that for you.
Pete
I’m new to this forum and have found it quite informative. My girlfriend has a 2003 Forester XS and we think it’s great. I drove it (again) last night in the rain and fog both on the highway and on dark winding roads and enjoyed the handling and overall ride. I’m looking to purchase a new ’06 for myself within the next few weeks and have a few questions:
1. Aside from a few exterior aesthetic changes, no leather interior and a low-grade spare tire, has anything in this vehicle changed since ’03 (either positive or negative)?
2. The horsepower rating in ’03 was listed at 165 hp @ 5600 rpm; the ’06 is listed at 173 hp @ 6,000 rpm. Are these comparable, or is there an improvement here?
3. I am looking for a manual transmission with leather which is no longer offered...unless one wants the XT which I’ll bet drives great, but with the higher sticker price, lower mpg rating, 20 cents more per gallon for premium fuel and an additional $100 per year on auto insurance in NJ over 4-6 years of ownership this can add up I’ll take the savings and buy a new 45” LCD flat panel TV for the family room! The salesman at the dealership saw that I was clearly disappointed about not being able to get leather. He pulled out a stack of swatches and offered to have a new ’06 with the premium package sent to a local branch of a national automobile re-upholstery company who (they say) does work for Subaru. I had the choice of at least 2-dozen colors and shades. The company name is Classic Soft Trim (www.classicsofttrim.com). Does anyone have any experience with this company, or any other company upgrading a new vehicle from fabric to leather?
I’m most curious about the first two questions. I can always get the interior re-done at a later time.
If anyone has any information or ideas, I'd be happy to hear them.
Thank you all for participating in this forum.
Bill
Aftermarket leather upholstery
Steve, Host
For me, the Forester appears to handle and ride better which I attribute to it's lower center of gravity mostly but I also think it's engine is better tuned. Both the v4 engines are nice but I do give the Forester the nod. I could compare the v6 RAV4 when it comes out but to be fair I'd probably have to look at the turbo Forester and I'd rather not complicate the decision.
After that, it seems harder to compare since the space differences almost make them different vehicles. The space on the Forester is good but it seems more of a large station wagon where the RAV4 is a stereotypical small SUV. The RAV4 seems to have a much nicer feel to it on the inside as the dash layout and features are nicer to me, but that is subjective.
1. There have been a number of interior and exterior modifications between the 03s and the 06s but yes, they are all fairly minor. I don't have the brochures handy to identify what's changed but most have been cosmetic or adding additional content (the space-saver spare being an exception).
2. Subaru tweaked the engine to get a few more ponies out of it so yes there's a real HP gain although the avg driver would be hard-pressed to notice an actual difference in performance. MPG has also increased slightly.
3. Yes the XT is sweet but does indeed come with the increased costs of ownership that you mentioned. Since that's a big factor, do yourself a favor and don't take one for a test drive.... otherwise you might be tempted into a decision you will later regret
-Frank
I don't think the 2006s are substantially different, but if you want to trade to get certain options or a different transmission then by all means, go for it.
RAV4 got a lot bigger. So the first questions I'd ask, is, how much space do you need? If you have 3+ kids, or 2 kids and a large dog, the RAV4 will probably serve you better, since it's roomier.
Forester has a lift gate that protects you from the rain and does not block curb-side loading. It has a better view to the rear, no spare tire to block your sight lines. The AWD is full-time, vs. on-demand. And it's a little lower to the ground, as you mentioned.
If both meet your needs for space, which one gave you a wider smile? Fun-to-drive is an important aspect, let that be the tie-breaker.
-juice
After everything else, it came down to which we thought we'd enjoy the most, and it seemed that the bit more life that the Subie gave us while driving would be worth it (and we could spend the extra $1500 on an HDTV).
People are talking about near MSRP for the V6s, which are still rare, and to me that's crazy. In a year the price will be $2000 less, I bet.
I also don't think Toyota has a credit card like Subaru has with Chase. I've earned $700 in Subaru Bucks, already spent $300 worth of those. That's a big selling point for the Forester.
If you can find a RAV4 for near invoice and need the space, though, go for it.
-juice
Jeff P.
Bethel, CT
I'm not an expert, but it seems careless to spend the extra money on the turbo and then not treat that investment accordingly, especially when we're only talking about a difference of around $100 per 10k miles you drive. I don't know if you will ever plan on selling it, but I'd imagine a lot of potential buyers would be skeptical about buying a used turbo that had been habitually run on regular gas, when premium was required.
Doug
In case you hadn't heard, the '06 turbo has higher compression than the '04 thus you aren't likely to have satisfactory results with regular.
John
Is the 2006 model THAT different? Will I do THAT much damage using mid-range fuel driving between 2500 and 3000 miles per year? I'm gettin the automatic and mainly getting the XT because it's the only way I can get a dark interior, factory leather and a sunroof in the same package. The light beige or grey interior in the standard models just wouldn't work for me. Plus, the extra power is a bonus.
All of you out there are such major "drivers", that I'm not sure anything I read here will apply to me. But, I appreciate the input. For example, I read a lot of complaints about the noise factor in these cars, but when I took one out for an hour, it was the QUIETEST car I have EVER driven. It was the auto and I guess maybe the 5 speed is noisy, but I'm used to driving a very noisy, truck-based SUV.
Only trying to give you friendly advise
You've been a regular poster here for a couple of months now, and the more you elaborate on your needs and reasons for getting the turbo, the more I become convinced that you'd be better suited in the X Premium with aftermarket leather. Obviously you'll make your own decision on this, but you came to this forum looking for information and maybe a little input from other owners, and that's the most any of us can offer you.
As jeqq said, we discussed premium vs. regular fuel before, and at 3000 miles a year the cost difference is going to be nil, considering you'll lose in gas mileage what you're saving at the pump, not to mention you could do permanent damage to your engine.
Contaxs may have used regular fuel in his 04 but I believe Subaru was using the older variable valve timing (VVT) technology with that model year, and has switched changed to the active valve control system (AVCS)for better engine management and performance. The language in the owners manual has even changed from 91 octane being "recommended" to being "required." Not to mention contaxs may have had his 04 FXT two and a half years maximum, and there's no telling how it might have run after four or five years of being fed regular fuel.
Alas, if the extra power is only a "bonus", and what you're really after is the plusher, darker interior and huge sunroof, then you'd save yourself a lot of money by doing what jeqq suggested and modifying an X Premium to fit your needs; it's still a fantastic car, and you wouldn't have the extra costs and maintenace associated with the, as you put it, more "driver" oriented engine.
My advice, even if you've already driven both the X and XT, go back and ONLY drive the X. Take it everywhere the dealer will let you; busy surface streets, twisties, freeway, whatever. Ask if they can give you an estimate on leather, or a referral to a good local shop. After test-driving it a while in everyday conditions, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that it won't meet your needs.
Doug
BTW, you can't get the black interior in the regular Forester - it only comes in either light beige or light grey. I need the black interior (I think it's actually dark charcoal grey) - that's the first reason I went for the XT. I am well aware that I can get "after-market" leather, but it's between $1000 and $1500 where I live - and I couldn't put black leather in the standard model anyway because it would be too dark for the light grey carpets and door panel trim. You may laugh, but I will probably have this car for 20 years (with what it's costing, I'd better!) and those light interiors spot up and can't be sufficiently cleaned. My 14 year old car looks brand new inside!
I drove the X first and then found out there was a turbo and went back and drove it. There is NO way I will buy the regular one now! Plus, I've read some reviews that say that the X has power issues going up steep hills and the turbo eliminates this problem.
Hopefully it will get around 18-20 MPG in the city and then I won't care what gas I feed it. I'm currently getting 9.4 MPG in my current SUV and it takes regular gas. I will gladly feed premium, like I did for my dear departed Beemer, if it gets similar mileage. Also, where I live, Premium can be as much as 40 cents more than regular - so a fill-up can cost as much as $5-6 more. I guess I really won't know how it's all gonna work until I buy it and drive it for a few months. Others' MPG estimates don't apply to me.
Unfortuately, the Forester XT is the only 4 cylinder car I like - That Chevy HHR is kinda cute, but I've read that it's not that great of a performer and the safety ratings suck! I just saw an ad on TV for something called the Maxda5, but I can't imagine it outperforming the Forester. The dealership is ordering an XT Limited stripped in the color I like, so I won't have to pay for all those extras (like, what is a security system shock sensor turbo, anyway). It should be here in March.
Thanks again,
Samantha
Also, anyone understand why Subaru doesn't offer tinted windows as standard?
I wondered this myself. Here in Texas window tinting is almost as required as a/c. It's shocking when you see a vehicle that doesn't have it.
I assume you made those measurements on level pavement or in a garage but you may also want to use a bubble level to verify. Measurement of tilt with a yardstick or tape measure is notoriously prone to error.
tidester, host
I hope you don't mind me venting just a bit...
I try to be polite in forums such as this, but my gosh, every once in a while Subaru does something so dumb it makes me question why I would ever give a penny to such a dumb [non-permissible content removed] company. Okay, end of rant.
Here's the bummer. Subaru announces that they have a deal now to include XM and Sirus radios in their cars in 2007. That's great. You could argue with the fact that it is three years behind the curve, but let's not be petty.
Here's the rub. According to the announcement, the Forester will only be available with Sirius--not XM satellite radio.
I am on my third Forester (I currently drive an 06 XT...and yes...I only use premium fuel). I also have XM radio. We upgrade our cars every two years. Now, when I go to get the new Forester, I can't get XM, the only option that I have is to switch to Sirius or continue to have an external radio sticking out of my dashboard. Why? Because someone decided that the Tribeca gets XM radio but Forester gets the Sirius?
Are you kidding me? Why can't I pick one or the other?
Add this to the list of truly maddening things you have to put up with when you decide to be a Subaru customer and it makes you wonder.
Sadly, by 2007, I may, for the first time, buy a new car that isn't a Subaru.
Okay, thanks for listening. Maybe we can put enough pressure on Subaru in these forums that they decide to do the right, customer focused thing, and let us choose our car and our satellite radio?
It's too bad really, because I do believe that Subaru makes the best cars on the road.
Glad you like the car - I'm getting one in March. The radio issue doesn't apply to me, but I wish they'd put an an iiPod dock, which I also hear is coming, but not in time for me.
Samantha :shades:
As an Outback owner, I like to listen to the snow crunch under my tires. :shades:
Steve, Host
You will not only like the car, you will love it. Again, I've always said that dollar for dollar, Subaru cars are far superior. I tested the BMW X3, the LandRover and a bunch of others against the Forester and felt it was a better car for far less money!
Of course, that doesn't take away from the fact that Subaru is a maddening and god awful company to do business with. I've written in this forum numerous times that Subaru is truly a bizzare company--the do the big things incredibly well and the small things terribly bad.
I did write to Subaru and got the same response that I always get when I ask them a question..."thanks for the feedback, sorry you feel that way, but we are a small car company." Argh.
By the way, an iPod plug? My guess is that will come in 2012.
Steve, I agree with you, but it doesn't snow every day. And, I so like listening to baseball on the radio!
Foresters can't legally have factory tint because they are technically classified as cars for EPA and (tint) purposes. Only "trucks" which of course include all sorts of vehicles that don't even remotely resemble a truck (PT Cruiser for instance) can have factory tint. Fortunately, there's no shortage of quality after-market tinters and since the Forester looks like a SUV (aka truck), you can pretty much go as dark as you want and no law enforcement official will question it.
-Frank
Just for the record, I extensively tested an X3, and it is a better car for more money. It handles better than the Forester and has the anemities that I feel comfortable with. The Subie is a fine car, and the XT is blazing fast, but I wouldn't say it's the best vehicle money can buy.
I completely disagree. The X3 "MAY BE" a little better in some areas (although Car & Driver didn't think so :P ) but there's no way it's even close to being twice as good. Which it would have to be to justify paying almost twice as much!
-Frank
I absolutely respect your opinion. My comment reflected my personal opinion and I freely admit that I am not a car expert. In fact, far from it. I only drive on the weekends and am not really that into cars.
However, I tested all of the cars that I was considering, including the X3. I thought it was different, had poor visibility out the back window, an advantage in some areas and a weakness in others. In a straight up comparison, I felt the Forester was a better car. I also think it had higher ground clearance and a better all-wheel drive system that has been proven over time. Again that is just me.
I did notice that the "experts" at Motor Trend felt the Forester better, or at least it was a tie and the price difference offset their choice.
But reasonable people can reasonably disagree. One thing I can tell you, if I would have purchased a BMW, alot of the silly things that one has to deal with as a Subaru customer wouldn't be happening. Again, great cars. Maddening company to be a loyal customer to.
Let's shift the focus back to Subaru. What kind of bad management says, we will have this type of satellite radio for this car and that type of radio for this car. Shouldn't it be about choice? You choose the car, then choose the satellite radio service you want, then the radio and the dealer installs it?
This is the same frustration I have every time I go to buy a new Subaru. You can't get a clear answer on accessories, you can't get the roof rack you want, you can't get window tinting, you can't get a navigation system and you can't have the radio you want.
Okay, okay, sorry for venting, but someone at Subaru should think about the needs of the loyal customer and reverse engineer the car buying experience. Instead of saying here are our cars, buy them, leave the dealer and search the Web for any and all add ons and accessories, why not start with what car do you want and how can we help you get everything you need, make you happy--and, by the way, help our dealer make more money in the process.
I go back to my original question. If you buy a Forester why should you be locked into one radio choice!
We can disagree on this, but it handled as well as an E46. The Forester isn't close to that. Pound the gas on an X3 through a curve and then pound the gas on the Forester and there is a world of difference between the two.
I could have gotten a $15K SUV and the Forester is not almost twice as good as a $15K SUV.
- frustrating climate control system, this has been talked about on this board
- no DSC type of feature
- no steering wheel controls (this drives me crazy as this is the only car in the last 10 years that does not have them)
- no fifth gear on tranny (very bad mistake by Subaru for not including this on the Forester)
- no option for HID
I understand the Forester isn't a real luxury model and it does have its' positive points. However, if one wants the ground clearance and interior space there is no other model that has these specs.
Couldn't agree more. I almost forgot about the maddening climate system and steering wheel controls would be terrific too. I go back to my original point--why can this company do the big things well and the little things, which should be so easy, so badly? Drives me nuts.
It is the little things that are starting to add up for me and the satellite radio is the straw that broke the camel's proverbial back.
I have found the Forester's level of luxury enough for me. Leather is nice. Car is comfortable. Quality on the interior is very good. And, you are right, if you want reliability, all wheel drive and ground clearance, hard to beat the Forester, despite Subaru's best efforts.
I had barely heard of Subaru when I test drove the Forester - in fact, I only saw them in the lot while on the way to the Honda Dealership! I also drove the X3 - after testing the Forester - and I was so worried that, having driven a BMW for 14 years, I would HAVE to have the X3 which cost so much more $$, but I liked the Forester XT MUCH better. Granted, the BMW is a luxury car, but I don't need a luxury car and I liked the way the Forester handled better! The Forester was also smaller, had a lower center of gravity (better for cornering) and a 4 cylinder engine.
Comparing the BMW's 6 cylinder to the Forester 4 cylinder XT is just comparing apples and oranges. They are both good and both fast - the Forester, however gets better gas mileage.
With regard to the extras that are available when ordering, I agree, there should be more options, but remember, the Forester is manufactured in and shipped over from JAPAN, so I believe that is the reason we can't get all the goodies in a pick&choose manner.
Getting my XT in March - can't wait - will let you all now if it's all I expected!
Samantha