What about the future of Ford Inc??

rockylee · July 2006

http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060731/AUTO01/607310329/- 1148

Rocky

mirth · July 2006

Seems that the big problem with ford, and other US car companies is how slowly they react. It took hontoy 1 year to bring smaller cars here. Why will it take ford 3-4?

Because HonToyNissan were already building those small cars in their home market of Japan. They just rebadged them and sent them here, hence the short "development" time. Ford wasn't making a small car at all which is why it's going to take them 3 years. They dropped the ball, but all they can do now is pick themselves up and keep going. Maybe they can accelerate things a bit and get it out in 2 years.

dhanley · July 2006

"Ford wasn't making a small car at all which is why it's going to take them 3 years."

No. As i pointed out, they already have well-thought of small cars in europe.

http://www.new-car-reviews.co.uk/Ford/Ford_Fiesta_Review.html

(scroll to the bottom for MPG figures )

lilengineerboy · July 2006

Its interesting that Ford is dropping CVTs while Nissan is apparently betting the farm on it. The Saturn Vue used to be CVT but is now convetional, IIRC, and the Dodge Neon crossover replacement thing (forgot the name)/Jeep Compass is a CVT on some models. I wonder how this will play out.

nippononly · July 2006

I think the difference is that the Asians design their cars with the U.S. market in mind, so that the mods necessary to federalize them are relatively minor and can be completed quickly.

Perhaps the Fiesta would require a major redesign to federalize. Indeed, I can't think of any other explanation why they would not bring that fantastic little model to the NA market right away. From what I've seen, it just might turn HonToy on their ear and make them work for the sales more than they are with the waiting-list, selling-at-full-MSRP pattern that exists right now.

This highlights a larger problem: despite the emergence of globalization more than 25 years ago, Ford and GM are only just now beginning to really focus on designing world cars. The Asians and the Europeans have been doing it for a long long time now, and saving money and reducing inefficiencies in the process.

dhanley · July 2006

"I think the difference is that the Asians design their cars with the U.S. market in mind, so that the mods necessary to federalize them are relatively minor and can be completed quickly."

That seems like a likely theory. The question is, why do the asian manufacturers have the foresight to think ahead in this manner, and it seems as if out own companies don't?

Based on my own work experience in the engineering field, corporate culture is amazingly strong. It can even persist through massive turnover. At some level, there seems to be an acceptance in dropping small issues, in deciding a car or truck is good enough because it's selling, after all. When that happens, someone else keeps moving forward, and wins.

nvbanker · August 2006

YOu're right, that's interesting. I notice Nissan is advertising it already - and Ford never really did advertise the CVT. They mentioned it, but didn't demonstrate it, like Nissan did. Another [non-permissible content removed] by Ford's Ad group. Ford Ads are the worst! Part of their problem, although GM's aren't much if any better.

mirth · August 2006

Good article about the Focus and why the European version isn't imported here:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060802/AUTO01/608020385/1148-

snippet: Today, Ford sells a different version of the Focus to the rest of the world. The European-made Focus is a superior vehicle that features much more dynamic styling, better performance and superior quality. Many industry analysts have wondered why Ford cannot sell the European Focus -- widely regarded as one of the best small cars in the world -- in North America.

The answer is price. While the Focus fits snugly in the compact economy segment in the United States, it is considered a midsize car in most of the rest of the world. In fact, it is considered an upmarket vehicle in many countries and is priced accordingly.

For example, the sporty Focus Zetec starts at $25,491 in Britain, which is more than the price of a Ford Fusion, the next car up in Ford's domestic lineup. In the United States, prices for the Focus start at less than $14,000 -- and that is before rebates.

Hard to make up $11K + in cost, I'll have to give them that. Stinks for them but all they can do is forge ahead I guess.

dhanley · August 2006

Yes, but the fact that the focus is 25K in the UK doesn't mean it'd be 25K here. For example, german cars cost more in germany than they do in the US. A large chunk of the cost is taxes. A basic ranger in the UK is over $20k. It's just over $15K here.

I checked, the base UK focus is $21.3K in US dollars. That included VAT. That'd be just under 16K with a similar price gap to the ranger above. This car also has power windows, ABS, EBD, and alarm.

lweiss · August 2006

The July sales figures are an unmitigated disaster for Ford. Now I am really wondering if they will avoid bankruptcy. If Bill Ford and Mark Fields can save this company, they will be doing well. The market has changed so greatly in the U.S. and they were so ill prepared for it. Well, I guess the only good thing is that as these old trucks and SUV's are scrapped (I think the average is 15 years), and new small models like the Toyota Yaris and Honda Fit are sold these days, the U.S. may start importing less oil from some unsavory countries. Feel bad for the Ford workers, Ford dealers, present Ford owners who are taking hits on higher depreciation. Tough stuff, hard to see this company's fortune's turning around soon.

nippononly · August 2006

big plans in the next five years are in trucks or large crossovers. No small cars until at least 2010? Ford, what are you thinking?

Not to mention, no new Ranger (once a perennial best seller) and no new Focus for at least two more years?????

But hey, the new Expedition comes out in September, let's hope it takes a REALLY BIG chunk of the rapidly shrinking, never-was-that-huge, large SUV market.

nvbanker · August 2006

Thanks mirth. Makes sense, and usually, the inexplicable does make sense, once the facts are known.

I guess Ford could introduce the Euro-Focus over here as the next level up - if they could make it bigger - but that won't work either. Interesting to me the journey of the Focus. Panned at first due to excessive recall activity, then gained respect, even becoming an anointing from C/R as a best buy (wish I could get that crown), then falling soon after as "old hat", "outdated", "surpassed".... Personally, I don't like them, but I don't think it's surpassed by a Cobalt. Maybe by an Accent....but it's about on par with one IMO.

dhanley · August 2006

The focus2 is here in a sense--the mazda 3 and volvo s40 are based on that platform. I've driven the s40 and i thought if was pretty good, though not a world beater.

The mazda3 touring starts at 16.5K. You need the touring for A/C which i think of as a must here in the US.

One would think ford could sell the focus a tad cheaper.

nvbanker · August 2006

Good point. I am extremely impressed with the Mazda 3, and the S-40 (somewhat less, has less personality). I recommend the 3 all the time, but not the Focus.

krony · August 2006

As a 10 year marketing person and an MBA graduate I'm stunned at Ford's marketing tactics that have caused the AFA to launch the www.boycottford.com campaign. Knowing their current financial situation I can imagine they can risk losing any part of their market even if they acquire new (gay) customers.

Ford has simply failed to recognize the conflict between their market segments. By choosing to market to the gays, Ford has alienated their Christian customers. This is no different that Pepsi having a marketing campaign on prime time TV to target older adults, how many kids would be fired up to buy the product? Case studies like this exist where Pfizer marketed Viagra in the early days to the 50+ men and found no one 30-40 would even think about using the product much less women who would have a say in the need for such product.

Where I think Ford has went from a marketing oversight to marketing suicide is to go beyond advertising in gay media to full-blown public financial support of gay organizations. What's next? Publicly supporting abortion, Israel, communism, or some other politically charged topic? I find it hard to believe that Ford feels their marketing is worth the risk. Stick to fixing your core business and get out the cultural and political activism.

For full disclosure, I must say as a Christian they've alienated me too.

dhanley · August 2006

Wow.

Don't know what to say about that.

I honestly don't think there are very many people who will avoid fords because they target one of a vast multitudes of demographics in this country.

Great first post to edmunds, BTW.

imidazol97 · August 2006

I see the problem as the AFA who think everyone cares what they think. This, IIRC, is the same group who launched boycott of a motel in the Greater Cincinnati area a few years back because motel had X-rated videos available in their private rooms and they were located near Kings Island amusment park.!!!! Get a life.

I've heard the leader, Mr. Wildman, interviewed on various radio programs and he truly does believe they should run everyone's life. Apparently that now includes what automobile o buy!

Talk about a hot button. If I'd not sworn off Fords years ago, I'd go buy one just to stand up against having the Think Police tell me by what to be alienated. :P

fintail · August 2006

FWIW, GM advertises in gay oriented venues too, indirectly supporting the causes that the egoistic psychos at AFA so vehemently oppose. DCX does likewise.

Ford's troubles have nothing to do with supporting causes that aren't so divisive in the rest of the first world, and everything to do with a lacklustre product line, cheapskate product development, and goofy marketing scheme. I don't think anyone can substantiate the AFA having any impact on Ford. Their woes are all product and image related.

krony · August 2006

I'm simply saying, if you are a large company marketing to a large vast (diverse) audience you can't afford to alienate anyone. If you are marketing to a niche that's fine but not when you're going for the masses.

As for the AFA, they simply want to make sure they make their constituents aware of Ford's activities. The great thing about being in a capital market is we can choose to but from anyone, for any reason.

My advice to Ford...don't intentionally piss anyone off.

dhanley · August 2006

"I'm simply saying, if you are a large company marketing to a large vast (diverse) audience you can't afford to alienate anyone."

Have you considered that some people might be alienated by a company advertising in an AFA publication?

chuck1959 · August 2006

Where I think Ford has went from a marketing oversight to marketing suicide is to go beyond advertising in gay media to full-blown public financial support of gay organizations. What's next? Publicly supporting abortion, Israel, communism, or some other politically charged topic? I find it hard to believe that Ford feels their marketing is worth the risk. Stick to fixing your core business and get out the cultural and political activism.

For full disclosure, I must say as a Christian they've alienated me too.

Oh PLEEEEESE let's don't go to extremes!!! Whoever said Ford was supporting ALL that too? Ford has done nothing wrong! It's simply going after a consumer group that just happens to be gay. That's no different than any other company going after a certain market(youth for example)to Christians "saving" people and getting them into churches for that 10% tithe money! Have you FORGOTTEN that in THIS COUNTRY, anyone (or company) can support whatever they want. If you don't like what a company supports...DON'T buy THEIR product...but you have no right to force that on to everyone else! Including your "Christian" believes.

Please don't take offense I'm a Christian myself.

rockylee · August 2006

Oh PLEEEEESE let's don't go to extremes!!! Whoever said Ford was supporting ALL that too? Ford has done nothing wrong! It's simply going after a consumer group that just happens to be gay. That's no different than any other company going after a certain market(youth for example)to Christians "saving" people and getting them into churches for that 10% tithe money! Have you FORGOTTEN that in THIS COUNTRY, anyone (or company) can support whatever they want. If you don't like what a company supports...DON'T buy THEIR product...but you have no right to force that on to everyone else! Including your "Christian" believes.

I agree.

Rocky

cccompson · August 2006

I agree too although I must say that I don't understand how a vehicle can be marketed based on sexual orientation.

Speaking of alienation - I've recently been shopping Mustangs. In the past I've bought vehicles new from Honda (multiple times), Chrysler (twice) and Ford, Pontiac, and Mazda once each. Most of my recent purchases have been over the internet. It is obvious (at least in Central Ohio) that Ford has a HUGE problem with their selling dealers in this regard. With one exception, my requests for internet price quotes have resulted in repeat emails ("come on down") but no prices. They seem to be stuck in some 1970s business sales model.

rockylee · August 2006

Tell em' you will "come on down" when you start getting price quotes to your liking.

If the dealer is far away, make sure you get a signed fax by a sales manager, with the figures you agreed on. I had a agreed price quote one time and drove a hour away excited about picking up my car at the dealership, and the response was we miss calculated the price, however we can sell it for this which was $3-4K higher. :mad: They tried to work me, but I left and gave them some 4-letter words as I left. I told em' also I spent a hour to get here + gas, and y'all miss calculated. You couldn't make an effort to call me back, to tell me the news to help me avoid a trip. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Rocky

mschmal · August 2006

I am an internet sales rep. I never give a specific quote out over email or phone.

Why do you need one? Even if you get one you have no idea if it is a good one, or if the car you want is even in stock there.

That is the hardest, most time consuming way to shop.

Simple steps to getting the best price!(assuming you know exactly what you want)

Search inventories to find what you want.

Call to confirm that car is available.

Make an appointment and go in there with an Edmunds TMV in hand for the car you find online.

Tell the guy what you are willing to pay.

Then negotiate from your number. Never negotiate from the dealer's number.

Once you have a selling price, get your trade appraised. Never get your trade appraised before you get a selling price!

We all pay the same for the cars. There is no dealer that can't meet or beat the price you got from another dealer on an in stock car sitting on their lot running up floorplan interest.

I am successful because out of the Finite time in my day, I spend my time talking to buyers, not shoppers. If you want serious attention from a Sales Person who could be talking to someone who might actually be buying a car, show you are serious.

Mark.

imidazol97 · August 2006

> Even if you get one you have no idea if it is a good one,

Today with information sharing via the internet and factory spiffs and rebates public info along with all the other info about dealer costs, this statement is wrong. I knew when using Edmunds the paperback book years ago when I had a good price for a new Oldsmobile.

It may be that giving a price and meaning it over the internet takes away one of the salesman's many advantages over the occasional buyer.

Sounds as if your dealership is wasting their money having an internet operation, unless they view it as part of their advertising budget. Do they have a phone contact method. Friends of ours bought her first and second Miata totally by phone from outside of the local area. SHE was treated as a business contact rather than a conquest like at the local dealers. Cinci store got the business; Dayton stores, didn't. I'll bet the Cinci store has an actual internet operation, prices, dealing, and all... I'll bet they don't refuse to give prices via internet.

01lightning · August 2006

I just purchased a new Honda by shopping over the internet. I will never purchase another vehicle any other way. I received 6 quotes. 2 of the quotes were significantly higher than the other 4, so those 2 were discarded - they obviously were not interested in selling a car. The remaining quotes were within a few hundred dollars of each other with the 2 lowest being nearly identical. The vehicle was specified along with selling price, and all fees clearly stated.
Take a look at the Honda Pilot forum under buying experiences and prices paid. You will see the power of the internet and the value of Edmunds.

marsha7 · August 2006

checked, gay people needed motorized transportation to get to the mall, their work, and a good restaurant...what is wrong with marketing to them as a group in the hopes of snaring their business???...their money is as green as mine, and spends just as well...

Bob (straight, by the way)

john_324 · August 2006

Well, I'm sure the anti-Ford boycott will be about as successful as other boycotts by fringe groups...

Back on the real topic, anyone know the short to medium term plans for the Fusion? It seems to me to be a real bright spot in the Ford line-up, and could only get better with some "lessons learned" from the roll-out. I'd personally like to see a manual transmission offered with the V6 engine at some point...

unknownmat · August 2006

You make it sounds so reasonable. I vehemently disagree that the AFA "simply want to make their constituents aware of Ford's activities". In interviews the head of the AFA has made comments to the effect of (adlibbing) "You can't boycott everyone, you've got to choose your targets". There is no qualitative difference between what Ford does and what any other OEM does with regards to "catering" to the LBGT community. They'd do as well to boycott automobiles all together (and just about every company on earth for that matter).

Your advice is silly. The AFA has forced Ford into a position where it can't help but to piss people off. To acquiesce to their demands would hurt the LGBT community. Otherwise the AFA is upset.

Frankly, the AFA can go *expletive* for all I care. They put Ford into this position, Ford does not deserve it.

Finally, if I had a choice between upsetting the highly affluent LBGT community, or upsetting a bunch of (less affluent) religious-right nuts I'd take the people with the money every time.

chuck1959 · August 2006

I agree too although I must say that I don't understand how a vehicle can be marketed based on sexual orientation.

A very good point.

dhanley · August 2006

"I agree too although I must say that I don't understand how a vehicle can be marketed based on sexual orientation. "

hummer: they'll never suspect you.

krony · August 2006

Couple things I'd add...

Whether you like the AFA or not (or really not), what's caught their attention isn't simply an ad in a magazine, it's the Ford's corporate sponsorship of gay organizations, etc. No doubt lots of OEM's place ads in media targeted at gays.

By supporting such a politically charged subject you're bound to draw some fire. Given Ford's market strength in the Midwest and South seems like it's a risky move.

dhanley · August 2006

Shrug... I just don't see the move as marketing suicide. Lots of companies support diversity, and in some way back ethnic, religious, and other groups.

But the AFA boycott was initially over advertising.

Someone somewhere is going to become offended at any group that gains support. Not so long ago there would have been an equally public and vehement call for boycott if the group receiving advertising dollars had been the NAACP. I am struggling to not say more about that comparison.

Maybe i'm wrong, but i just don't think many people are going to decide not to buy a ford because they advertise in gay publications.

dave

nvbanker · August 2006

"I agree too although I must say that I don't understand how a vehicle can be marketed based on sexual orientation."

How about a Pink Mini Cooper?

Sorry, I hate when I do that...

mschmal · August 2006

Naturally the common people don't want war...But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

Herman Goering at Nurenburg.

As long as they have us afraid of Gays, Minorities, Terrorists, etc, we won't notice their hands in our cookie jars. This is the oldest tactic known to politics...

Remember, we have nothing to fear but fear itself.

Mark.

mschmal · August 2006

Oldest tactic known to politics.

Beware of the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry, [who] infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How will I know? For this I have done. And I am Julius Caesar.

dhanley · August 2006

Danger! Danger Will Robinson: car content dropping to zero.

john_324 · August 2006

Totally. So back on target, does Ford have ANY plans for the Ranger? It seems such a shame that the one pickup (for leisure that is...I know the bigger ones have a fairly inelastic demand) that stands the best chance of weathering the gas price storm is the one Ford has absolutely neglected...

Seems that doing a "Mustang" on it and working it over in a retro style (mimicing the swoopy fenders of a '50s pickup perhaps) would be a great way to jumpstart interest in it... :confuse:

Kirstie_H · August 2006

Yeah, let's just be careful... the conversation is fine as long as we stay automotive-focused. Thanks!

bumpy · August 2006

Ford's "plan" for the Ranger is to hope the free-trade agreement with Thailand goes through so they can start importing the Ranger the rest of the world gets.

chuck1959 · August 2006

I wish they would do something...anything to the Ranger. I think retro would be a mistake IMO. Maybe with the high gas prices they'd do something with it now.

dhanley · August 2006

Apparently there's a 4-cylinder ranger diesel in the rest of the world that gets 30mpg. That should sell here with current prices.

bruce6 · August 2006

First, let's be honest and call AFA what it truly is: A hate group whose boycotts do nothing except fatten Donald Wildmon's coffers. Their effect on major corporations has been negligible, while a gay and lesbian boycott of Coors beer successfully forced the company to change a number of policies.

Ford's real problem is it's vehicle lineup: The Focus is out of date and sinking fast while the rest of the small car market is surging. The 500/Montego/Freestyle are boring and selling below expectations. The Ranger was a great little truck a dozen years ago, but a redesign is many years overdue. Their minivans are a joke. Lincoln was badly neglected and is only now starting to get a decent infusion of new models.

They can advertise wherever they want, but unless they have exciting products to sell, no one will care.

nvbanker · August 2006

That is a good assessment of Ford's weaknesses, bruce, and some of it is inexcusable. Take the Ranger - I owned an 88, sold it in 94 with 61,000 miles on it, and NO, read it NO, Zero problems! Not even brakes were needed! It's still running for the second owner, looks like hell, but is going strong at 230000 miles. That truck was comfortable too.

I sit in today's ranger, and I don't mind the style of it.
What I do mind is the miserable low seat! What happened to the seats Ford used to put in their vehicles??? They've been cheapened horribly, and today, were I in the market for a small truck, I hate to say it, but I'd buy a Colorado with the dumb 5 cylinder engine. I think it's the nicest on the market today. Ford has totally given that market away, and it was theirs to lose.

On the other hand - Ford still has some strengths they have not relinquished yet. The large truck market is theirs, because the product is superior, IMO. The Mustang is a hit again, and the johnny come lately Camaro and Challenger will be late to the party, and who knows with what. The Mustang is a great car, from top to bottom.

Lincoln is a mess. What they had going, they have lost. The Navigator invented the segment of luxury large SUVs. The second generation was better than the first and the cabin was second to none. For 07, they have screwed up the DNA that made the brand famous, and cheapened that beautiful cabin. The front of the truck is so hideous, were I in the market for a large luxury SUV today, I'd buy either the Escalade (NEVER thought I'd say that). I had one before, and it was "unimpressive" in most areas.

I hear Jag is on the block. Should it sell, that'll leave Lincoln as the only Ford luxury brand. It's harder to run a large car company that's old than it looks. Toyota has been building for decades now, and has not yet peaked. But GM and Ford have peaked years ago, and are now struggling to pay for the past with today's profits, and manage too many dealers, too many brands, and too many competitors.

chuck1959 · August 2006

I have about 3 or 4 friends that have Rangers and they all love them. I almost bought one myself in 2002. Found a heck of a deal too. If I recall I could have gotten a $19,000 Ranger XLT extended cab for about $14,000.00. There was after a huge rebate of $4000.00?...I can't recall for sure and a dealer discount.

As far a the Colorado...I don't see what people like about it. To me it's butt ugly.

Personally I like the '07 Navigator. I'd buy one if I could afford it.

Ford does need to get rid of Jag and concentrate that money on Lincoln. Especially a Town Car replacement which IMO should RWD if they want to retain the loyal customers and the limo market. Keep the MKS (?) too.

dhanley · August 2006

I am not as hot on dumping jaguar as everyone else seems to me. While it's not acceptable that they are losing tons of money, i don't think you need a premium brand to do so. It's enough that they beak even, build a strong reputation, then pass on their developments.

For example, i think the jag 4.2L is a fine engine. In theory, that could be handed off to ford, tooling and all, after Jag builds a new, even better engine.

I think this has served DCX well. The charger/300 are verypopular and profitable cars. Their development costs were low because chrysler was basically handed the platform, running gear, and tooling of the old mercedes E-class. Let's suppose that a whole new XJ is in the pipeline. Couldn't lincoln build a great car on the platform? I've driven the current xj8 and it's a very impressive car.

The sad thing would be they sold jag after dumping billions into it, then it ended up being successful.

I also agree on the ranger. A friend of mine has a '95 ranger and it works well. The new ones? Bleh.

nvbanker · August 2006

Hey, don't get me wrong - I abhor the thought of selling off Jaguar after billions have been spent fixing the sagging line. It bites. I like Jag, the heritage, the Britishness of it, and the cars themselves. Unfortunately, this new XJ was built too carefully like the old one. Just a little too much DNA. Other Jags though, XK< S-Type have been great looking, and successful.

I wish they could keep Jag. I wish they could keep all of the PAG.

scott1256 · August 2006

If Ford should sell Jaguar or any company in the PAG they should use every penny of the selling price to give Lincoln a lineup worthy of the brand's history.

For particulards, see the other discussion about 'Where is Ford taking Lincoln?'

nvbanker · August 2006

I agree - but they won't. The sale of Hertz yielded millions, which were all diverted to Jaguar! Now, it's for sale.

What about the future of Ford Inc??

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