Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k)

richml · September 2005

You weren't kidding about the styling?

backy · September 2005

The Hyundai powertrain warranty in years 6-10 is not transferrable to other owners. In past years, it was transferrable within the immediate family (e.g. sell car to a child), but not any more. The bumper-to-bumper warranty can be extended to 10 years/100k for around $1000.

As for the question on how the Elantra holds up, my '01 GLS is nearly 5 years old, and has held up very well. Other than some parking-lot dings, the body and paint still look like new. The interior still looks like new, except for some tar on the floor mats. The car still drives and runs like new (actually better, since it's broken in now). No rattles or squeaks save one intermittant cold-weather rattle in the dash area that has defied multiple dealer attempts to eliminate it. The only significant problems (all fixed under warranty) since delivery that were the fault of the car have been a failed O2 sensor and a squeak in the clutch pedal (which has occured twice). My '04 GT has had no significant problems in its first 18 months. One headlight cover did have some fogging after car washes and was replaced under warranty.

So for me, reliability or lack thereof would not stop me from buying another Elantra or other Hyundai. The big question for me is how competitive the '07 Elantra will be against the likes of the Mazda3 and the new Civic, and how much Hyundai will raise its price.

iowaelantra · September 2005

that the Mazda3 was half the price of other cars he had been considering. Must be nice to be able to do that. I think most people who submit to this forum would probably consider the Mazda3 as the TOP end of the price they would consider. I drove a Mazda3 5 door and grinned like a kid the whole time I drove it. Then, after getting away from the dealership, reality settled in. I'm not sure whether the car I drove was a highly optioned S or was one of the Special Edition cars, but it's MSRP was over $21K. That really set me to thinking seriously about the car. I loved it, but did I love it that much???? I then drove an Elantra GT sedan (the only hatch the dealer had was an mt and my knees aren't that good) and felt that the Elantra was a very stable nice riding vehicle for the kind of driving that I would do. It wasn't as peppy as the M3, but in my case price is going to be a very major concern. The MSRP was $17,199. Then the Spectra5 reared it's ugly head. I really like the looks of the outside of this car. It reminds me a lot of the M3 5 door (it was the 5 door that first caught my attention, anyway). My kids have a Vibe and I've gotten very used to that "what is it, an SUV or a wagon or some unholy cross between the two" look :confuse: I went to the HyundaiUSA website tonight and discovered that in their comparison section you can do side by side pictures of the Hyundai car and whatever you are comparing. Damn, I DO like the exterior of the Spec5 when compared to the Elantra. However, looking at the pics of the interior of the two cars, it seemed like I was more drawn to the Elantra. My ideal would be a cross between the two.....Spec5 exterior and Elantra interior.....and Edmunds downrated the Elantra for it's dated interior.....go figure.....guess I'm outdated too and that's why it appealed to me. :P I haven't been able to test drive the Spec5 yet. I hope to do that fairly soon. From what I've been reading, I'm expecting the Spec5 to be a little more sporting in its handling, along the lines of the M3 vs a little smoother ride from the Elantra. I will have to test drive both cars again to see which one feels better to me as far as driving position goes. I suspect from what I've read that the Elantra may win out there. Anywho, as much as I loved the Mazda, I'm pretty sure that it has been relegated to a distant third on my reality list and that it will come down to a battle royale between the Spectra5 and the Elantra GT hatchback. Why not a sedan???? I don't know. I've just gotten it in my head that a 5 door would be an intelligent choice for me. I have time on my hands to try and figure out which one I want. All the dealers within 80 miles of where I live have virtually NO INVENTORY left....either Kia or Hyundai. So will pretty much have to wait until the 06 versions arrive. Maybe by that time the money tree will have rebloomed again so that I can do some really serious comparisons. Oh my, oh my, which one do I want???? :confuse: :confuse:

zoomzoomitis · September 2005

You want the "dated" Elantra GT. A thousand bucks is a thousand bucks. No matter how many configurations are run on the two models you are comparing (exactly my two finalists too.), that Kia with it's "newer" bells and whistles costs a bit more, doesn't quite measure the Hyundai in crash tests nor years of proven realibilty (2 years v. 5 years) AND has a low flying front appendage that reportedly comes off rather easily.

Now as far as supply goes, still plenty of '05's in my neck of the woods. Leaning more and more towards October as my purchasing window of opportunity as I'm certain there will be plenty of the Elantra hatchbacks about with the '06's coming on the doorstep shortly. That rebate goes up from here. Not down. Time is on MY side Mr.& Mrs. Dealership. Clock is ticking MY way.

PS I too think the Spec5 "looks" much sharper than the Elantra but considering many other inputs into the equation as well. Elantra wins the "value" contest IMHO.

mdaffron · September 2005

Just for comparison, I paid less than that Elantra's $17,199 price tag for my 2005 Mazda3s hatch with 5-speed, wheel locks and rear bumper step plate back in April. The MSRP on the car was about $17,600 and they knocked about a thou off of that price (I basically paid invoice).

Meade

smaria · September 2005

I drove a Mazda3 5 door...I'm not sure whether the car I drove was a highly optioned S or was one of the Special Edition cars, but it's MSRP was over $21K.

Must've been highly optioned. A Mazda3 5-door with SAB/SAC/ABS and Auto transmission has an MSRP of $19,300. For manual transmission (still keeping the SAB/SAC/ABS), MSRP is about $18,500. You can easily buy any of these for at least $1000 below MSRP (i.e., $18,300 and $17,500 respectively).

When I was looking for a new car, one of the things that caught my attention about Mazda was that I had a good amount of flexibility on the option packages...I could pay for the options I wanted WITHOUT paying for options I didn't want.

To complete the comparison with the other brands in this tread: the Honda Civic tends to limit your options to specified trim levels (HX, LX, EX, Si), and the Toyota Corolla (and other Toyotas) tend to bundle options together. My experience at a Toyota dealer, talking about the Matrix, went something like this: "you can have side air bags, but only if you add a sun-roof, cruise control, an alarm system, and a rear spoiler".

In my mind, the Mazda3 had this advantage: it didn't force me to pay extra for options that I didn't want. Since side air bags were a requirement for me, the money saved on the Mazda3 by not adding other options that I didn't want (such as a sunroof) made it more affordable in comparison to other cars I was looking at.

backy · September 2005

Just for comparison, I paid $13,200 for my '04 Elantra GT 5-door with every option possible (auto, moonroof, ABS/traction) including 3 years scheduled maintenance. That was about $2800 under invoice. The Mazda3s is a better car; the Elantra is a better value.

mdaffron · September 2005

For the record, my Mazda3 came with free oil changes every 3,000 miles for the first 36,000 miles, and free tires for life. (And it's a 2005.) I extended the basic 4 year/50,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warranty to 6 years/100,000 miles. All that, and my monthly payments (60 months) are about $20 lower than the payments on my wife's 2002 Protege5 which had a trade of equivalent value.

Meade

iowaelantra · September 2005

Meade,

The Elantra I looked at had all the bells and whistles......sunroof, traction control, mud flaps, cargo nets, etc, etc, etc. That is why it had the higher price. It even had a wind deflector for the moonroof. The price I mentioned was the MSRP. If I had been seriously looking at the time, I'm sure they would have come way down on the price. They had only 3 Elantras of any kind left on the lot. I'm sure they really wanted to get rid of them.

backy · September 2005

So to be fair, adding tires for life (let's say two tire changes @ $300 per change based on my tire-buying experience with Elantras) and extending the base Hyundai warranty to 10 years/100k miles bumper-to-bumper would be worth about $1500-1600. Were those costs included in the price you gave us earlier, about $17k? Also what would be the cost of extending the 3's warranty to 10 years/100k miles instead of 6 years?

iowaelantra · September 2005

I happen to want all the bells and whistles. I want a sunroof and all the good stuff. LOL. Anyway, the Mazda3, as much as I loved the car, to get it with the options that I want would still run close to $20k using the build a car system from Mazda's website and other sites that I tried. The Elantra with the same options would run me 3K or more less than the Mazda. I think the Elantra might be a little more comfortable for me on the longer trips....as mentioned before, I have problems with my knees and I, also, have some back problems, so a certain comfort level in the seating is rather important for me. The Elantra also seems to "feel" a little larger to me, whether it really is or not. That is a subjective thing, but a smaller car that has somewhat of the "feel" of a larger car is kind of nice. I want the smaller car but do like that larger "feel". Please don't suggest stepping up to, say, a Sonata or others in that class. I DO want the smaller more fuel efficient car and definitely want the smaller price tag. BTW what is it with older ladies and their giant Buicks, Oldsmobiles and the like. I see these little old ladies driving these great big tanks and wonder what goes on in their heads. Bet they don't parallel park much with those big tanks.

:confuse:

mdaffron · September 2005

Well, first of all, the tires that come standard on the Mazda3 are 17-inch V-rated Goodyear Eagle RSAs in a size of 205/50-17. At TireRack (which is usually a little cheaper than going to Goodyear) those tires are $169 each. That's just the tires. If you include $20 per tire for mounting, balancing and valve stems, then the replacement cost for one set is $756, not including any taxes. So two changes would be worth more like $1,500.

Mazdas tend to use larger and higher-rated tires than Hyundai. The 2004 Elantra GLS and GT models used 15-inch H-rated Michelin Energy MXV4s, which cost $103 each at TireRack (and $66 less per tire = $264 less per change or more than a $500 difference in your two-sets scenario). That's one reason I was delighted to hear about the free tires for life offer -- from past experience, knowing Mazda's quirky tire sizes and high-end choices, I know Mazdas ain't cheap when it's tire replacement time!

Extending my warranty was not included in the price I quoted earlier, but I know I paid about $700 for it.

Meade

P.S. Regarding comfort and options, I cannot have a sunroof because I'm too tall. And I didn't want side air bags, nor can I stand automatic transmissions and ABS. So the base 3 hatch in "S" trim (which is far from "base" by most cars' standards) was just fine with me, and I thank Mazda for not including all that safety fluff as standard equipment like more and more car makers are doing these days as a way to get at least an extra $1,000 out of you.

backy · September 2005

That's too bad the cost of ownership for the Mazda3s is increased by the expensive tires.

I recently replaced the tires on my '01 Elantra (the Michelins) with Kumho Ecsta HP4 716s that provide better ride, lower noise, and better wear than the Michelins for under $300 total, including a lifetime replacement warranty. I would have been crazy to pay all that money for the Michelins given their lousy wear and performance.

As for side air bags, I guess you didn't see the IIHS side crash test results for the Mazda3 without side air bags and curtains--not too good. (They weren't too good on the Elantra either, but I bought my Elantras before those results were published.) Personally I don't consider safety features such as airbags "fluff". I will be sure that any new car I buy from now on has both side bags and curtains. The need for ABS is questionable; my '01 Elantra stops very well without it, for instance, but since the '04 GT is my wife's daily driver and she doesn't have good winter driving skills (grew up in south Texas), and we do get a lot of snow/ice up here, I thought the ABS/traction option was the way to go on that car. And the moonroof (my first) is pretty nice, I must admit--no headroom problem on the Elantra fortunately even though the tallest driver of the car is 6'3".

mdaffron · September 2005

I guess you didn't see the IIHS side crash test results for the Mazda3 without side air bags and curtains--not too good.

Oh, I saw 'em. I also saw how in 40 years of life and more than a dozen cars, I haven't needed SAB's (couldn't have until recently, even if I'd wanted them) and I'm still here to talk about it. You know, my car could catch on fire, yet I don't have a cabin fire-extinguishing system. My car could get caught in rising floodwaters, and I don't have life jackets and outriggers on board. A meteor could land on my car and I don't have roof air bags.

Oooh boy, you asked for it now: a full-blown Meadietorial from both barrels! Here goes:

I'm tired of my government telling me what the latest and greatest safety device is, and then dictating to me that I should pay my own money for it. I've gotten along just fine for years without air bags of any kind, I've only had ABS once (because it was standard -- I couldn't stand it and was glad to get rid of it), and as for traction control, well whoop-de-doo! I have traction control. I slow down in the rain and I stay at home when the weather's bad.

As for side impacts, I guess I'll just have to look both ways at intersections.

Ooops, I'm supposed to be doing that already.

My government told me about that when I took my driving test.

Cynical? No, realistic. We all take chances in life, and we weigh risks and options when doing many things. I choose to take my chances at being a good defensive driver instead of other things like playing the lottery -- a true waste of time and money.

By the way, I hydroplaned and totaled a 10-month-old Protege back in 1992. 45 mph into the back of a stopped Volvo station wagon. I walked away.

Oh -- no air bags at all in the '92s.

One other thing -- I know air bags are great safety devices that protect you in really bad accidents. But there are other types of accidents. If both of us experience, say, a 5-mph side collision, you in your SAB-equipped Hyundai and me in my non-SAB-equipped Mazda, chances are, by the time the body work and your side and head curtain air bags (if you have them) are replaced, your car will be totaled -- resulting in higher insurance payments for you than I, whose car will still be on the road.

Let's see. Six months and 8,900 miles. Still alive, and I have yet to see any 3,000 pound chunks of concrete and steel coming at me from the side. Maybe it's because, unlike those oh-so-realistic crash tests, my car isn't bolted to a track, I have two good eyes, hands that can steer, and a foot ready to hit the brakes at all times.

I'll tell ya, hitting a seat belt at 45 mph teaches you a few things about life and makes you realize how foolhardy it is to drive faster than conditions warrant.

Meade

oldjoe · September 2005

.....errr...why would you look at any Korean car in comparison to the Honda Civic...the standard for small autos recognized around the world for resale vale, quality, longevity and just a great car?

gandalf17 · September 2005

".....errr...why would you look at any Korean car in comparison to the Honda Civic...the standard for small autos recognized around the world for resale vale, quality, longevity and just a great car?"

OldJoe,

Maybe because other companies continue to improve their product, much like Honda had too, when they first brought over their little rust buckets to North America. In the last 5 years, Hyundai, which now owns KIA, has drastically improved their vehicles in terms of styling and build quality.

In the same interim, Honda has remained largely stagnant and has been decontenting the Civic to a large extent. One could also make an argument based on some studies and reports that Honda's build quality has also been greatly reduced in recent years.

Honda has a great and well deserved reputation for engineering and building fine automobiles. However, they have done very little recently to justify this reputation and their competitors have either already passed them, or in the case of the Korean companies, are certainly not very far behind.

When my wife and I were shopping for a vehicle for her in 2000, we chose the Mazda Protege ES sedan. Number two on that list was the Elantra. The Civic was a distant 3rd, the Sentra 4th, the Jetta 5th and the Corolla 6th. I did not, nor ever will buy a domestic car so these were not tested.

Why in the world would anyone buy a car solely on what a company has done in the past???!! I agree that a reputation for quality is of great importance, but this pales in comparison to the current quality of the vehicle you wish to buy.

The reality of the situation is that Korean cars are now a reasonable alternative and in some cases, a better choice than Japanese cars pending ones budget and requirements.

jpmccormac · September 2005

re: "I'm tired of my government telling me what the latest and greatest safety device is, and then dictating to me that I should pay my own money for it."
and
"I'll tell ya, hitting a seat belt at 45 mph teaches you a few things about life and makes you realize how foolhardy it is to drive faster than conditions warrant."
and
"We all take chances in life, and we weigh risks and options when doing many things."

If you're tired of government dictates and like taking chances, why do you wear a seat belt? Just curious.

mdaffron · September 2005

And they don't cost extra.

And if you don't wear them ... well, the government makes even a BIGGER financial statement in your life.

Luckily, they haven't made air bags a legal requirement ... yet.

:P

banditboy · September 2005

Just had to jump in payed 18,600 for a Mazda 6i with
Bose ,Moonroof , 5 Speed , TCS/ABS , Sport Version so get the spoiler and
suspension,17 inch alloys with foglights and alot of other stuff

Mazda gave 2k off on rebate , 1k finance off from mazda credit [refinanced it in 2 days awith my credit union for a low rate], 500 coupon from zoom zoom event.
Got a 500$ gerber on the way but if i waited i could have used it ....but got 1

i payed 20,500 with Tax, Lo Jack -700$ OTD

blane · September 2005

Is it my imagination or has this forum become Mazda versus Hyundai? Kinda boring.

explorerx4 · September 2005

why won't you consider 'a domestic'?

iowaelantra · September 2005

It's not that I don't like any domestics. I had a Grand Am for a number of years and loved it. The issue for me is that I am unable to get any domestic brand in a size I like, with the options I like, for anywhere near the price of what Hyundai/Kia are offering. I thought about going for a used car. I kind of like the Dodge Stratus, but when I investigated prices for them discovered that 2000, 2001, 2002 with 20k miles or less on them were selling in my area for nearly the same $$$$$$ as brand new Hyundais and Kias and they were better optioned than the Stratuses. Domestic builders seem unable to compete in this category witness that the Focus and the Cobalt were the only domestic badges included in the comparison. Maybe the domestic guys are too busy building gas guzzling SUVs. I don't know. I should maybe give the Focus a chance, but I've seen a few of them and they just don't talk to me. It has been the Mazdas, Spectras, and Hyundais that have raised the goose bumps on my arms. The Mazda has sort of moved itself out of the running because of price, but maybe I should go back and reduce some of the options that I wanted to get the price down. If I did that, would I be happy with having less than what I really wanted, or do I go ahead and go for the Hyundai/Spectra twins that have everything I want???? :confuse:

iowaelantra · September 2005

I have the same problem buying clothes that I'm having buying cars. I, for the life of me, can not justify paying $60-$80 for a shirt just because it has the name of some guy like Calvin Kline on it (insert any other "name" for Calvin Kline if you wish). You look at the label and it's made in Bangledesh, Sri Lanka, Thailand, India, etc. You know that shirt did not cost very much to manufacture. Is the quality better than a shirt I buy at J.C.Penney for $15???? You can't convince me that it is....and, yes, the J.C. Penney shirts are made in the same countries, maybe even the same factories as the big name guys. The shirts I've bought from J.C. Penney have lasted me a goodly length of time, have kept their looks, and were at least $45 cheaper than the other guy's(leaving me that $45 to spend on...say....FOOD). $135 for a pair of jeans. Absolutely friggin forget it. I feel our society has gotten SOOO caught up in the "name" game that manufacturers feel they can tack on boocoo extra $$$$$ for their product JUST because it has a certain "badge" on it. In the meantime, the so called no name guy is out there with just as good a product and sells it less than the other guys. Until someone can prove to me that the big name guys' products are THAT much better than the lesser name guy, I'll tend to throw my lot in with the no name guy with the good product at a reasonable price. Hence, my tendency to keep my car shopping list pared down to the Korean twins. Give me proof positive that Hondas or Toyotas or whomever are THAT much better to warrant the extra $$$, and I might reconsider. I've been reading these and other forums for months now, and I have yet seen anyone come forth with an argument that convinces me that is the case. I've heard talk about resale value which means absolutely nothing to me, because by the time I'm ready to get a new car I really don't expect much more than $500 trade in for my old one. If I get more than that, I feel like I've gotten a bonus. Now, rip me apart everyone. I know I'm a cheap SOB.

explorerx4 · September 2005

iowa,
hopefully, nobody will rip you apart for posting your opinion. it is how you feel. i really don't care what anyone else does, i just am trying to figure out how other people think. thanks for the very exhaustive posts. i just hope others will read this and figure out how to make a decision they will be happy with. when i bought a car, i made a different decision, for my own reasons. there is not one answer that works for everyone.

csandste · September 2005

my 05 Maxx is much more car and at $16K is on the bottom end of these comparison cars. The Spec. 5 didn't make my final list because at the time they had that initial bad crash test. My Hyundai dealer (despite my fondness for the Elantra) was seedy. The one or two MPG difference between the 5 speed Elantra and the Maxx is more than made up with the cost of getting a timing best changed. Didn't think I'd care for things like a full info. center (know Hyundai has this with the GT), power pedals and seats, fully adjustable steering column, but for $16K it's pretty nice. Just like I got used to power windows and locks in the Elantra.

Did drive the Mazda3 and liked it a lot (just sat in it again last week and that feeling was reaffirmed) however comparing similar levels of accessories it's actually more expensive than my Maxx. I like the Mazda 6 (more mid-size hatches and wagons, please!) but the level of reliability is less than the Maxx or the Mazda 3, and that price definitely takes you out of the 16-20 price range unless you get a left over 4 cylinder.

Haven't even seen the new Civic but a digital speedo. still reminds me of the pre-2005 Suzuki Aerio or something out of 1985. Maybe the idea is a lot better in person.

iowaelantra · September 2005

Thanks, explorer,

It's nice to hear from someone who may disagree with someone but who is also able to see the other person's line of thought.

Ok. Did some recalculations and here is how things shook out. Please keep in mind that the Hyundai/Kia have some things that the Mazda has only as options or doesn't have at all....but the same can be said about the Korean twins.

Mazda3:

Trim package S
Options added: Automatic tranny @ $900 and moonroof/6 CD changer @ $890. Did not select the package which contains the ABS or extra airbags or curtains so these would need to be added on while they are included in the Korean twin prices.

MSRP = $19,455

Kia Spectra5:
trim package: Base
options added: Auto tranny @ $970, moonroof @ $700, antilock brakes @ $400, cruise control @ $250.

MSRP = $18,115

Hyundai Elantra
Trim package: GT 5 door
Options added: Package 8 (moonroof, abs, traction control) @ $1,445

Note: auto tranny was already included in the trim's starting MSRP

MSRP = $17,689

Please note that the Mazda price does not include the package that has abs, side air bags and side air curtains. This package would have added another $800 or so to the MSRP. Also note that the side air bags are standard on the Hyundai and that the side air bags and curtains are standard on the Kia as well as such little things as heated outside mirrors and extra controls for adjusting driver's seat height and lumbar support. To be fair, the Korean twins do not have audio and cruise controls on the steering wheel, and a CD changer is not available on either. I didn't really want the changer on the Mazda, but it comes packaged with the moonroof.

So here I am again. The Hyundai is over $1700 less than the Mazda. I'm guessing the Hyundai dealers would cut a really good deal while the Mazda dealers would not be able to cut that great of a deal. I guess when the time comes, I'll have to approach the dealers with really good facts and figures in hand, drive the cars again, and then have some really serious thinking to do.

backy · September 2005

Hope you feel better after the ranting.

How about this for a mini-rant: if you don't believe in ABS or side airbags for yourself, get them for the people who don't have a choice in the matter: your passengers. All of your driving skills won't help you one bit if your luck runs out, e.g. you are sitting at an intersection, packed between cars, and someone has a heart attack and drives his/her car right into the side of yours. Safety features like ABS and airbags and ESC aren't there because we use them every day. We hope we don't have to use them at all. But they can come in real handy if we do need them, if only for a split-second. They are like an insurance policy. (Let me guess--you don't believe in buying insurance, either--right?)

I for one am really glad that ABS and side bags/curtains are becoming easily available in this class of cars, and thanks to companies like Honda and Hyundai are even becoming easily available and affordable in the sub-$16k class. Enjoy the lack of side bags/curtains while you can. Thanks to the IIHS and their tough side impact test, I predict they will be standard on all cars in this class--maybe even all cars period--within five years.

zoomzoomitis · September 2005

You ain't "cheap". Just frugal with your hard earned money (assuming no money tree out back).

Don't know why you are just comparing each of the models MSRP to MSRP. I'd really focus on that last paragraph of yours. You mention "cutting a deal". Who is going to do it, who is not. Isn't that reeeeeeeally the key when price is such a huge factor? Coming from a Mazda guy like me it's BIG when the local Zoomer dealership is lookin' at me with their hands tied behind their backs (rebate-wise) with Mary the Mazda in tow (trade-in), while the Korean competitors down the street are saying "Come on down! You're the next contestant on name your price!"

Aside from that, look at the markets inner workings right now. Those 3's are STILL hot. IOW, crowd mentality is keeping that price up, supply relatively low AND dealer attitude somewhat...dull, as in NOT willing to "cut" the deal. OTOH, Elantra, being the old and outdated yet still reliable competitor has no one on the lot kickin' it's tires.

Hmmmm...personally, I hope these market conditions maintain themselves another month or so.

iowaelantra · September 2005

I'm not ready to go out and deal yet. I'm just in the looking stages right now. I have to wait for some circumstances that are beyond my control at present. When I am seriously ready to purchase, I'll be seeing the dealers again armed with Edmunds' price guides and/or Consumer Reports Price Guides. Then we will see who actually cuts the best deal. If the guys at Mazda can give me a really good deal, well then I'll have a Mazda sitting in the drive. It's pretty much gonna depend on who can do what.

iowaelantra · September 2005

1. Yeah, I've heard about the front spoiler problem on the Spectra5. It is something I'm keeping in mind. I've read that a few people have asked the dealer to take the spoiler off before they take delivery, but I'm not sure how the car would look without it.

2. On a tire forum, I asked the resident expert what his thoughts were for replacement tires on the Elantra. He said he would go with Bridgestone Turanzas. Just thought you might like to know. Do you know if a dealer will do any price adjustments for tires? Like if you ask them to take the OEM tires off the car and that you will bring replacement tires to be put on the car????? Would they be willing to reduce the car price at all????

backy · September 2005

Don't know why you addressed the Spectra5 spoiler problem to me... I haven't mentioned it.

On tires, the Turanzas are probably very good but I am extremely happy with the performance and value from the Kumhos. I have heard of dealers giving some reimbursement from turning in the *new* OEM tires for replacements--I know of someone who did that with his brand-new Prius, for example. But this is off topic, so I won't elaborate.

smaria · September 2005

Good point, thanks for posting your opinion.

I totally agree with you on your clothing comments. I never pay extra money for a brand name, actually I prefer NOT to have a brand name on my clothes. I don't want to be a free walking advertisement for a clothing manufacturer (shouldn't they be paying me for raising their level of brand-awareness?). With clothing, I often don't see a correlation between quality and price, so I tend to buy clothes that are on the cheaper side.

All of this, and still the Mazda3 was on the top of my car shopping list. The reason is simple: I went out for test drives, and I felt a world of difference between the Mazda3 and the other cars I test drove. For me, the Mazda3 was the most fun to drive, felt solidly put together, and handled securely on the road. Personally, I didn't sense any sort of intangible "brand-name markup" on the Mazda3. Its price, to me, seemed to adequately reflect it's level of options and performance...very tangible features.

No matter how "cheap" someone is, they're usually willing to pay a little more for something that they percieve as being a better product (better in reliability, better in safety, something that you simply "like more", etc.). If you don't perceive brand-name clothing to be a better product than cheaper clothing, why pay more for it? The same with cars. But, if someone likes the Mazda3 much more than any other car, and will enjoy owning it much more than any other car (for whatever reason), then it might be worth extra money as long as it's still affordable. If there's really no substantial preference either way, by all means the buyer should go for the cheaper car...why pay more for something that you don't care about? This is where personal preference is a huge factor.

smith20 · September 2005

But, if someone likes the Mazda3 much more than any other car, and will enjoy owning it much more than any other car (for whatever reason), then it might be worth extra money as long as it's still affordable. If there's really no substantial preference either way, by all means the buyer should go for the cheaper car...why pay more for something that you don't care about? This is where personal preference is a huge factor.

Exactly. The cost differences between the cars (simplifying this by saying we're all equal at negotiating) from one consumer to another is fixed, but the utility and personal enjoyment varies widely from one person to the next. Yet, we all debate our points based on our particular and highly variable utility, person preference, and driving enjoyment evaluations, which is why threads like this go on, and on, and on, and on . . .

Someone in this discussion said to them the 3 was 95% of a car costing twice enough, so it is easy to see why they bought the Mazda3. For my wife and I, an Elantra was 90% (just made up but it makes the point) of a Mazda3, which is close enough to being equal. Thus, in our view of the cars being "equal" we ended up purchasing the cheaper of the two cars.

iowaelantra · September 2005

I think we all first and foremost try to figure out what is within our budget. I, for instance, took a passing glance at an Audi A4, but knowing the general price range on the car, I didn't look long. I knew it would be completely out of my range and therefore never really considered it. So, I started looking at the cars available in what I thought was my price range. All things considered, all the cars that have been talked about whether it is Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Hyundai, Kia, Ford, VW, etc., can all be had with roughly the same equipment and withing a certain price range. This is where the "personal preference" that smaria talked about comes into play. First we look at the exterior and what inspires us. I ruled out the Hondas, Toyotas, etc, because they just didn't talk to me. There was something about the way they looked that didn't excite me. Next comes the interior. Again, do I like what I see in there? Finally comes the test drive. Which car feels right for me when I drive it. Is the driving position comfortable for me? Does it feel like it would be comfortable on a trip? Can I reach the pedals, steering wheel, other controls without having to reach too far or strain? Is the layout of the controls nice to my eyes? Does it have the responsiveness that I want? Does the steering feel right for me? Does it handle the way I would like and the way I feel I will be able to control the vehicle.? All of these things, as smaria stated, are personal preferences. For each one of us, one of the final factors is how does each car look, feel, smell, taste, and sound to me. Then we have to make a decision as to whether we, PERSONALLY, feel that one car, IN OUR EYES, stands above the other finalists we have picked. If it is a higher priced model than the others, do our little minds tell us that it is worth the extra money. Smaria is correct that even though we may try to buy things as cheaply as possible, when something makes us feel that the quality may be better, then we tend to ante up the extra $$$$$ (including me). The gentleman from Minnesota is a good example. I think he was in this forum. He didn't think the Mazda3 was a viable candidate for him, but after driving the car he changed his mind and is now the proud owner of a Mazda3. This could yet happen in my case. I can't think of anyone who just goes into a dealer and says "I want to buy one of these" without looking at it and driving it. When everything is said and done, which cars any of us do or don't like boils down to two things.....which car inspires us the most and which car best fits into our budget.

Backy, sorry. I attributed a statement about the Spectra5's front spoiler breaking off easily to you. Obviously, it was someone else who noted the problem and commented on it.

Finally, to each and everyone of you who has contributed to this forum, go out there and find the car that YOU like the best.....and have a ton of fun driving it.

banditboy · September 2005

Budget 16k - 20k
4 Cyl with atleast 30+ highway mileage
Living in the northeast with freezing rain - ABS /TCS

Test Road
Accord LX 5 speed : Liked everything except when i tryed to merge on the highway with 3 people me/wife/nephew/sales women - less say that ended it ....

Altima : Great car butwith a 5 speed i get no option and abs/tcs knocked the car to 23k

Camry : Did not like the loose driving feedback - personal perference

Mazda 6i - 5speed manual with abs/tcs for 18k cannot be beat .mine
came with the 6 cd changer boss,moonroof and paid 18,600 + TTL

I am happy have 100 miles on my car and really like it

ctalk · September 2005

Isn't this a Compact Sedan thread?

The cars you listed are all mid-size sedans. Try this thread Midsize Import Sedans Comparison Thread

Accord LX 5 speed : Liked everything except when i tryed to merge on the highway with 3 people me/wife/nephew/sales women - less say that ended it ....

Disagree with you here, the Accord's inline4 is one of the best out there (and has had a lot of praise from reviewers) The Altima's I find is very loud and not as refined as the Accords. The Camry's feels underpowered. The Mazda 6 is ok. Question: Did you test all the cars with me/wife/nephew/sales women inside? Or just the Accord.

backy · September 2005

Accord LX doesn't have the TCS that was on the shopping list.

Technically, the Elantra and Spectra are mid-sized cars, yet Edmunds.com is fine with including them in this discussion. The lines get real blurry sometimes. Like the fact I can buy a nicely-equipped Mazda6 at my local dealer for less than the smaller Mazda3 with the same engine. Or the fact that there is no trim line of the Elantra, Forenza, or Spectra sedans that lists for over $16k, unless you load them up with options. Blurry, blurry. :confuse:

banditboy · September 2005

I am not sure about the accord i did own the 2001 which i traded in after a trip to the moutains as i kept pulling it from D to 3 with 5 guys in the car.
Hence i concluded that a stick is the only wayto go with 4 cyclinder but the 05s here are run out and 06 knocked the price out the 20k mark.

Mazda 6 i rode with the same group -sales women but added my sister with A/C.....not bad....

But the accord had the best stick shift ...it was awesome but the 6 close but the moonroof and other additions tilted the balance + 3500$ rebate from invoice

pat · September 2005

Ctalk was right when he suggested this conversation move to the Midsize Import Sedan Comparison discussion. That's where we are talking about the vehicles on your mind, not here.

See you there!

midnightcowboy · September 2005

Did you every drive a Mini Cooper either the regular model or the S. Try it if you think the Mazda 3 is fun

backy · September 2005

Fun plus practical is important for many people--including me.

midnightcowboy · September 2005

$16-20K and not necessarily size. Where "economy" meant economy of cost not size.

I think Banditboy's analysis and cars discussed fit the thread topic to a "T"

Sometimes more is not better as in the large number of car trheads that are almost the same and always get somewhat off topic.

By the way with the new Civic Pricing, a lot of the top end models are above $20K when fully loaded.

Sigh,

MidCow

backy · September 2005

Maybe our Host can sort this out for us. Based on the six cars attached to this discussion, I thought it was focused (no pun intended) on compact-sized sedans in the $16k-20k range. Otherwise we could talk about cars like the Accord, Camry, Fusion, Malibu, Optima, Sebring/Stratus, and Sonata; some small SUVs; and even a minivan or two.

Yes, Civics--also Mazda3's and Cobalts--can easily top $20k fully loaded. In the past, Edmunds.com's approach to categorizing cars by price was to look at the MSRP before destination of the base model car without options. Which is how the Mazda3 won "Best sedan under $15k" two years in a row and the Civic coupe won "best coupe under $15k" several times. I really don't know what the categorization strategy is now, based on this latest review of "economy" sedans.

pat · September 2005

The topic is primarily defined by the six vehicles listed in the "What is this discussion about?" line at the top and the title. The vehicles banditboy wants to discuss are being covered in another comparo and that's where that conversation needs to continue.

midnightcowboy · September 2005

Got yah, sorry I came to the party late and was only picking up the thread title "Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k)"

Cruis'n,

MidCow

csandste · September 2005

The problem with that board is it excludes the Fusion and Malibu two of the better midsize choices (at least this one has the Focus and Cobalt). Classifying cars as domestics or imports for comparison purposes is confusing and counter productive in a global economy.

backy · September 2005

How about creating a discussion like "Mid-Sized Free-For-All"?

alpha01 · September 2005

will debut at the North American International Autoshow in Detroit, January 2006.

Thought it relevant to this board. Expect a HUGE leap in room, quality, power/efficiency tradeoff, style.

With the Versa recently confirmed, Im thinking Nissan might take some liberties and move this car upward, nixing perhaps, the spartan 1.8 base model?

~alpha

backy · September 2005

I agree that's a likely scenario, to have the Sentra compete head-to-head with the Mazda3 and Civic both in capability and price. With almost all other cars in this class offering 140+ hp next year, Nissan has to do better than 125 on the new Sentra. And while they're at it... please, please put a back seat that is roomy enough for adults in the new Sentra! Even the Versa is supposed to have rear leg room greater than the Maxima's, for gosh sakes.

backy · December 2005

Wow, is this discussion dead or what? :sick:

Yet there is some pretty exciting news for small-car fans: the 2006 Civic just became the first small sedan to score "Good" on the IIHS front, side, and rear crash tests, making it the only small car that is an IIHS "Top Pick".

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=300

This defintely raises the bar for the all-new Elantra coming next year and future small car designs.

Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k)

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