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Comments
As for the question on how the Elantra holds up, my '01 GLS is nearly 5 years old, and has held up very well. Other than some parking-lot dings, the body and paint still look like new. The interior still looks like new, except for some tar on the floor mats. The car still drives and runs like new (actually better, since it's broken in now). No rattles or squeaks save one intermittant cold-weather rattle in the dash area that has defied multiple dealer attempts to eliminate it. The only significant problems (all fixed under warranty) since delivery that were the fault of the car have been a failed O2 sensor and a squeak in the clutch pedal (which has occured twice). My '04 GT has had no significant problems in its first 18 months. One headlight cover did have some fogging after car washes and was replaced under warranty.
So for me, reliability or lack thereof would not stop me from buying another Elantra or other Hyundai. The big question for me is how competitive the '07 Elantra will be against the likes of the Mazda3 and the new Civic, and how much Hyundai will raise its price.
Now as far as supply goes, still plenty of '05's in my neck of the woods. Leaning more and more towards October as my purchasing window of opportunity as I'm certain there will be plenty of the Elantra hatchbacks about with the '06's coming on the doorstep shortly. That rebate goes up from here. Not down. Time is on MY side Mr.& Mrs. Dealership. Clock is ticking MY way.
PS I too think the Spec5 "looks" much sharper than the Elantra but considering many other inputs into the equation as well. Elantra wins the "value" contest IMHO.
Meade
Must've been highly optioned. A Mazda3 5-door with SAB/SAC/ABS and Auto transmission has an MSRP of $19,300. For manual transmission (still keeping the SAB/SAC/ABS), MSRP is about $18,500. You can easily buy any of these for at least $1000 below MSRP (i.e., $18,300 and $17,500 respectively).
When I was looking for a new car, one of the things that caught my attention about Mazda was that I had a good amount of flexibility on the option packages...I could pay for the options I wanted WITHOUT paying for options I didn't want.
To complete the comparison with the other brands in this tread: the Honda Civic tends to limit your options to specified trim levels (HX, LX, EX, Si), and the Toyota Corolla (and other Toyotas) tend to bundle options together. My experience at a Toyota dealer, talking about the Matrix, went something like this: "you can have side air bags, but only if you add a sun-roof, cruise control, an alarm system, and a rear spoiler".
In my mind, the Mazda3 had this advantage: it didn't force me to pay extra for options that I didn't want. Since side air bags were a requirement for me, the money saved on the Mazda3 by not adding other options that I didn't want (such as a sunroof) made it more affordable in comparison to other cars I was looking at.
Meade
The Elantra I looked at had all the bells and whistles......sunroof, traction control, mud flaps, cargo nets, etc, etc, etc. That is why it had the higher price. It even had a wind deflector for the moonroof. The price I mentioned was the MSRP. If I had been seriously looking at the time, I'm sure they would have come way down on the price. They had only 3 Elantras of any kind left on the lot. I'm sure they really wanted to get rid of them.
Mazdas tend to use larger and higher-rated tires than Hyundai. The 2004 Elantra GLS and GT models used 15-inch H-rated Michelin Energy MXV4s, which cost $103 each at TireRack (and $66 less per tire = $264 less per change or more than a $500 difference in your two-sets scenario). That's one reason I was delighted to hear about the free tires for life offer -- from past experience, knowing Mazda's quirky tire sizes and high-end choices, I know Mazdas ain't cheap when it's tire replacement time!
Extending my warranty was not included in the price I quoted earlier, but I know I paid about $700 for it.
Meade
P.S. Regarding comfort and options, I cannot have a sunroof because I'm too tall. And I didn't want side air bags, nor can I stand automatic transmissions and ABS. So the base 3 hatch in "S" trim (which is far from "base" by most cars' standards) was just fine with me, and I thank Mazda for not including all that safety fluff as standard equipment like more and more car makers are doing these days as a way to get at least an extra $1,000 out of you.
As for side air bags, I guess you didn't see the IIHS side crash test results for the Mazda3 without side air bags and curtains--not too good. (They weren't too good on the Elantra either, but I bought my Elantras before those results were published.) Personally I don't consider safety features such as airbags "fluff". I will be sure that any new car I buy from now on has both side bags and curtains. The need for ABS is questionable; my '01 Elantra stops very well without it, for instance, but since the '04 GT is my wife's daily driver and she doesn't have good winter driving skills (grew up in south Texas), and we do get a lot of snow/ice up here, I thought the ABS/traction option was the way to go on that car. And the moonroof (my first) is pretty nice, I must admit--no headroom problem on the Elantra fortunately even though the tallest driver of the car is 6'3".
Oh, I saw 'em. I also saw how in 40 years of life and more than a dozen cars, I haven't needed SAB's (couldn't have until recently, even if I'd wanted them) and I'm still here to talk about it. You know, my car could catch on fire, yet I don't have a cabin fire-extinguishing system. My car could get caught in rising floodwaters, and I don't have life jackets and outriggers on board. A meteor could land on my car and I don't have roof air bags.
Oooh boy, you asked for it now: a full-blown Meadietorial from both barrels! Here goes:
I'm tired of my government telling me what the latest and greatest safety device is, and then dictating to me that I should pay my own money for it. I've gotten along just fine for years without air bags of any kind, I've only had ABS once (because it was standard -- I couldn't stand it and was glad to get rid of it), and as for traction control, well whoop-de-doo! I have traction control. I slow down in the rain and I stay at home when the weather's bad.
As for side impacts, I guess I'll just have to look both ways at intersections.
Ooops, I'm supposed to be doing that already.
My government told me about that when I took my driving test.
Cynical? No, realistic. We all take chances in life, and we weigh risks and options when doing many things. I choose to take my chances at being a good defensive driver instead of other things like playing the lottery -- a true waste of time and money.
By the way, I hydroplaned and totaled a 10-month-old Protege back in 1992. 45 mph into the back of a stopped Volvo station wagon. I walked away.
Oh -- no air bags at all in the '92s.
One other thing -- I know air bags are great safety devices that protect you in really bad accidents. But there are other types of accidents. If both of us experience, say, a 5-mph side collision, you in your SAB-equipped Hyundai and me in my non-SAB-equipped Mazda, chances are, by the time the body work and your side and head curtain air bags (if you have them) are replaced, your car will be totaled -- resulting in higher insurance payments for you than I, whose car will still be on the road.
Let's see. Six months and 8,900 miles. Still alive, and I have yet to see any 3,000 pound chunks of concrete and steel coming at me from the side. Maybe it's because, unlike those oh-so-realistic crash tests, my car isn't bolted to a track, I have two good eyes, hands that can steer, and a foot ready to hit the brakes at all times.
I'll tell ya, hitting a seat belt at 45 mph teaches you a few things about life and makes you realize how foolhardy it is to drive faster than conditions warrant.
Meade
OldJoe,
Maybe because other companies continue to improve their product, much like Honda had too, when they first brought over their little rust buckets to North America. In the last 5 years, Hyundai, which now owns KIA, has drastically improved their vehicles in terms of styling and build quality.
In the same interim, Honda has remained largely stagnant and has been decontenting the Civic to a large extent. One could also make an argument based on some studies and reports that Honda's build quality has also been greatly reduced in recent years.
Honda has a great and well deserved reputation for engineering and building fine automobiles. However, they have done very little recently to justify this reputation and their competitors have either already passed them, or in the case of the Korean companies, are certainly not very far behind.
When my wife and I were shopping for a vehicle for her in 2000, we chose the Mazda Protege ES sedan. Number two on that list was the Elantra. The Civic was a distant 3rd, the Sentra 4th, the Jetta 5th and the Corolla 6th. I did not, nor ever will buy a domestic car so these were not tested.
Why in the world would anyone buy a car solely on what a company has done in the past???!! I agree that a reputation for quality is of great importance, but this pales in comparison to the current quality of the vehicle you wish to buy.
The reality of the situation is that Korean cars are now a reasonable alternative and in some cases, a better choice than Japanese cars pending ones budget and requirements.
and
"I'll tell ya, hitting a seat belt at 45 mph teaches you a few things about life and makes you realize how foolhardy it is to drive faster than conditions warrant."
and
"We all take chances in life, and we weigh risks and options when doing many things."
If you're tired of government dictates and like taking chances, why do you wear a seat belt? Just curious.
And if you don't wear them ... well, the government makes even a BIGGER financial statement in your life.
Luckily, they haven't made air bags a legal requirement ... yet.
:P
Bose ,Moonroof , 5 Speed , TCS/ABS , Sport Version so get the spoiler and
suspension,17 inch alloys with foglights and alot of other stuff
Mazda gave 2k off on rebate , 1k finance off from mazda credit [refinanced it in 2 days awith my credit union for a low rate], 500 coupon from zoom zoom event.
Got a 500$ gerber on the way but if i waited i could have used it ....but got 1
i payed 20,500 with Tax, Lo Jack -700$ OTD
hopefully, nobody will rip you apart for posting your opinion. it is how you feel. i really don't care what anyone else does, i just am trying to figure out how other people think. thanks for the very exhaustive posts. i just hope others will read this and figure out how to make a decision they will be happy with. when i bought a car, i made a different decision, for my own reasons. there is not one answer that works for everyone.
Did drive the Mazda3 and liked it a lot (just sat in it again last week and that feeling was reaffirmed) however comparing similar levels of accessories it's actually more expensive than my Maxx. I like the Mazda 6 (more mid-size hatches and wagons, please!) but the level of reliability is less than the Maxx or the Mazda 3, and that price definitely takes you out of the 16-20 price range unless you get a left over 4 cylinder.
Haven't even seen the new Civic but a digital speedo. still reminds me of the pre-2005 Suzuki Aerio or something out of 1985. Maybe the idea is a lot better in person.
It's nice to hear from someone who may disagree with someone but who is also able to see the other person's line of thought.
Ok. Did some recalculations and here is how things shook out. Please keep in mind that the Hyundai/Kia have some things that the Mazda has only as options or doesn't have at all....but the same can be said about the Korean twins.
Mazda3:
Trim package S
Options added: Automatic tranny @ $900 and moonroof/6 CD changer @ $890. Did not select the package which contains the ABS or extra airbags or curtains so these would need to be added on while they are included in the Korean twin prices.
MSRP = $19,455
Kia Spectra5:
trim package: Base
options added: Auto tranny @ $970, moonroof @ $700, antilock brakes @ $400, cruise control @ $250.
MSRP = $18,115
Hyundai Elantra
Trim package: GT 5 door
Options added: Package 8 (moonroof, abs, traction control) @ $1,445
Note: auto tranny was already included in the trim's starting MSRP
MSRP = $17,689
Please note that the Mazda price does not include the package that has abs, side air bags and side air curtains. This package would have added another $800 or so to the MSRP. Also note that the side air bags are standard on the Hyundai and that the side air bags and curtains are standard on the Kia as well as such little things as heated outside mirrors and extra controls for adjusting driver's seat height and lumbar support. To be fair, the Korean twins do not have audio and cruise controls on the steering wheel, and a CD changer is not available on either. I didn't really want the changer on the Mazda, but it comes packaged with the moonroof.
So here I am again. The Hyundai is over $1700 less than the Mazda. I'm guessing the Hyundai dealers would cut a really good deal while the Mazda dealers would not be able to cut that great of a deal. I guess when the time comes, I'll have to approach the dealers with really good facts and figures in hand, drive the cars again, and then have some really serious thinking to do.
How about this for a mini-rant: if you don't believe in ABS or side airbags for yourself, get them for the people who don't have a choice in the matter: your passengers. All of your driving skills won't help you one bit if your luck runs out, e.g. you are sitting at an intersection, packed between cars, and someone has a heart attack and drives his/her car right into the side of yours. Safety features like ABS and airbags and ESC aren't there because we use them every day. We hope we don't have to use them at all. But they can come in real handy if we do need them, if only for a split-second. They are like an insurance policy. (Let me guess--you don't believe in buying insurance, either--right?)
I for one am really glad that ABS and side bags/curtains are becoming easily available in this class of cars, and thanks to companies like Honda and Hyundai are even becoming easily available and affordable in the sub-$16k class. Enjoy the lack of side bags/curtains while you can. Thanks to the IIHS and their tough side impact test, I predict they will be standard on all cars in this class--maybe even all cars period--within five years.
Don't know why you are just comparing each of the models MSRP to MSRP. I'd really focus on that last paragraph of yours. You mention "cutting a deal". Who is going to do it, who is not. Isn't that reeeeeeeally the key when price is such a huge factor? Coming from a Mazda guy like me it's BIG when the local Zoomer dealership is lookin' at me with their hands tied behind their backs (rebate-wise) with Mary the Mazda in tow (trade-in), while the Korean competitors down the street are saying "Come on down! You're the next contestant on name your price!"
Aside from that, look at the markets inner workings right now. Those 3's are STILL hot. IOW, crowd mentality is keeping that price up, supply relatively low AND dealer attitude somewhat...dull, as in NOT willing to "cut" the deal. OTOH, Elantra, being the old and outdated yet still reliable competitor has no one on the lot kickin' it's tires.
Hmmmm...personally, I hope these market conditions maintain themselves another month or so.
2. On a tire forum, I asked the resident expert what his thoughts were for replacement tires on the Elantra. He said he would go with Bridgestone Turanzas. Just thought you might like to know. Do you know if a dealer will do any price adjustments for tires? Like if you ask them to take the OEM tires off the car and that you will bring replacement tires to be put on the car????? Would they be willing to reduce the car price at all????
On tires, the Turanzas are probably very good but I am extremely happy with the performance and value from the Kumhos. I have heard of dealers giving some reimbursement from turning in the *new* OEM tires for replacements--I know of someone who did that with his brand-new Prius, for example. But this is off topic, so I won't elaborate.
I totally agree with you on your clothing comments. I never pay extra money for a brand name, actually I prefer NOT to have a brand name on my clothes. I don't want to be a free walking advertisement for a clothing manufacturer (shouldn't they be paying me for raising their level of brand-awareness?). With clothing, I often don't see a correlation between quality and price, so I tend to buy clothes that are on the cheaper side.
All of this, and still the Mazda3 was on the top of my car shopping list. The reason is simple: I went out for test drives, and I felt a world of difference between the Mazda3 and the other cars I test drove. For me, the Mazda3 was the most fun to drive, felt solidly put together, and handled securely on the road. Personally, I didn't sense any sort of intangible "brand-name markup" on the Mazda3. Its price, to me, seemed to adequately reflect it's level of options and performance...very tangible features.
No matter how "cheap" someone is, they're usually willing to pay a little more for something that they percieve as being a better product (better in reliability, better in safety, something that you simply "like more", etc.). If you don't perceive brand-name clothing to be a better product than cheaper clothing, why pay more for it? The same with cars. But, if someone likes the Mazda3 much more than any other car, and will enjoy owning it much more than any other car (for whatever reason), then it might be worth extra money as long as it's still affordable. If there's really no substantial preference either way, by all means the buyer should go for the cheaper car...why pay more for something that you don't care about? This is where personal preference is a huge factor.
Exactly. The cost differences between the cars (simplifying this by saying we're all equal at negotiating) from one consumer to another is fixed, but the utility and personal enjoyment varies widely from one person to the next. Yet, we all debate our points based on our particular and highly variable utility, person preference, and driving enjoyment evaluations, which is why threads like this go on, and on, and on, and on . . .
Someone in this discussion said to them the 3 was 95% of a car costing twice enough, so it is easy to see why they bought the Mazda3. For my wife and I, an Elantra was 90% (just made up but it makes the point) of a Mazda3, which is close enough to being equal. Thus, in our view of the cars being "equal" we ended up purchasing the cheaper of the two cars.
Backy, sorry. I attributed a statement about the Spectra5's front spoiler breaking off easily to you. Obviously, it was someone else who noted the problem and commented on it.
Finally, to each and everyone of you who has contributed to this forum, go out there and find the car that YOU like the best.....and have a ton of fun driving it.
4 Cyl with atleast 30+ highway mileage
Living in the northeast with freezing rain - ABS /TCS
Test Road
Accord LX 5 speed : Liked everything except when i tryed to merge on the highway with 3 people me/wife/nephew/sales women - less say that ended it ....
Altima : Great car butwith a 5 speed i get no option and abs/tcs knocked the car to 23k
Camry : Did not like the loose driving feedback - personal perference
Mazda 6i - 5speed manual with abs/tcs for 18k cannot be beat .mine
came with the 6 cd changer boss,moonroof and paid 18,600 + TTL
I am happy have 100 miles on my car and really like it
The cars you listed are all mid-size sedans. Try this thread Midsize Import Sedans Comparison Thread
Accord LX 5 speed : Liked everything except when i tryed to merge on the highway with 3 people me/wife/nephew/sales women - less say that ended it ....
Disagree with you here, the Accord's inline4 is one of the best out there (and has had a lot of praise from reviewers) The Altima's I find is very loud and not as refined as the Accords. The Camry's feels underpowered. The Mazda 6 is ok. Question: Did you test all the cars with me/wife/nephew/sales women inside? Or just the Accord.
Technically, the Elantra and Spectra are mid-sized cars, yet Edmunds.com is fine with including them in this discussion. The lines get real blurry sometimes. Like the fact I can buy a nicely-equipped Mazda6 at my local dealer for less than the smaller Mazda3 with the same engine. Or the fact that there is no trim line of the Elantra, Forenza, or Spectra sedans that lists for over $16k, unless you load them up with options. Blurry, blurry. :confuse:
Hence i concluded that a stick is the only wayto go with 4 cyclinder but the 05s here are run out and 06 knocked the price out the 20k mark.
Mazda 6 i rode with the same group -sales women but added my sister with A/C.....not bad....
But the accord had the best stick shift ...it was awesome but the 6 close but the moonroof and other additions tilted the balance + 3500$ rebate from invoice
See you there!
I think Banditboy's analysis and cars discussed fit the thread topic to a "T"
Sometimes more is not better as in the large number of car trheads that are almost the same and always get somewhat off topic.
By the way with the new Civic Pricing, a lot of the top end models are above $20K when fully loaded.
Sigh,
MidCow
Yes, Civics--also Mazda3's and Cobalts--can easily top $20k fully loaded. In the past, Edmunds.com's approach to categorizing cars by price was to look at the MSRP before destination of the base model car without options. Which is how the Mazda3 won "Best sedan under $15k" two years in a row and the Civic coupe won "best coupe under $15k" several times. I really don't know what the categorization strategy is now, based on this latest review of "economy" sedans.
Cruis'n,
MidCow
Thought it relevant to this board. Expect a HUGE leap in room, quality, power/efficiency tradeoff, style.
With the Versa recently confirmed, Im thinking Nissan might take some liberties and move this car upward, nixing perhaps, the spartan 1.8 base model?
~alpha
Yet there is some pretty exciting news for small-car fans: the 2006 Civic just became the first small sedan to score "Good" on the IIHS front, side, and rear crash tests, making it the only small car that is an IIHS "Top Pick".
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=300
This defintely raises the bar for the all-new Elantra coming next year and future small car designs.