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The 2007 Elantra is supposed to be much stiffer than the '06, so it will be interesting to see how that car compares to the Spectra.
He wanted high-20s for city mileage. If you (gcroft) are willing to trade a little mileage (24/33 for Sonata) for a bigger, safer car, go with the Sonata GL, or GLS even. I'd be willing to be you could get a GLS in your area for under $17k OTD if you try hard. I have an Accord that I love, but for the buyer on your particular budget (under $18k), the Sonata looks like the place to be if you want a safer, larger car for your child.
I have an auto I-4 Accord, so bump those numbers by one or two points for a stick-shift. A 2004 EX Accord stick in good condition should be in that 15-16k price range (assuming 40k miles or so).
Total with Options With Side Airbags and ABS, the Corolla LE TMV is about $16,400 per Edmunds.com... $18,000 is way too high unless it had alloys, sunroof, JBL, stability control, mats, etc... And even then, I'd have a hard time paying over $17k for a Corolla.
TAF $295
TMF $200
2% Holdback MSRP $322
PIO Holdback $31
1% Finance Reserve MSRP $161
Dealers seem firm on this.
I see jettas on sale in the paper this morning for $16995. Ill have to do some research on those and the sonata.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I don't know what PIO holdback is, but it still shouldn't be a charge to you. You should read Edmunds piece on Dealer Holdback and maybe follow up in the Dealer Holdback Questions discussion over on the Smart Shopper board. Also you may want to check into the Toyota Advertising Fees discussion as well.
But the best way to get by all of this stuff is make your offer an out-the-door price with which you are comfortable, meaning it includes everything but tax, tags and licensing. Then they can allocate the money into whatever categories make them happy.
Keep us posted!
gcroft, good luck in your search, whatever you may end up with.
backy, "2007 Hyundai Elantra" #1224, 14 Oct 2006 12:04 pm
Did I hear correctly, though, that no upgrades have been made to the engine? Is the automatic a 4-speeder or 5-speed transmission?
Not that the Hyundai had a problem with its outgoing Elantra engine, but in a world of constant re-benchmarking (either by adding power or economy) it seems a little dangerous not to improve the powertrain in some way.
The new Elantra is supposed to get improved economy (I think like 3 MPG better).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That's good. I believe the sticker for the last Elantra I saw had something like 24/32? That's pretty bad these days... my larger Accord beats those numbers, weighs more, and a good deal more power. Something like 28/36 would be class competitive, if not class leading, for an Automatic Elantra. Of course, if it could match the 30/40 of the Civic and offer the same horsepower, even better!
Question do you beat those numbers in real life driving? The reason I ask is that I beat those numbers in a second gen Elantra thats not even rated that high by the EPA. I actually achieve 8-10% higher than EPA estiments.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I haven't driven it yet so I really don't know how it compares to the class leaders in ride, handling, and NVH. The reviews lead me to believe it's improved there too, but proof is in the pudding.
We also have to remember that Hyundai has its next-generation engines waiting in the wings. It's interesting to me that DC has already begun deploying the small-displacement engines from the DC/Mitsubishi/Hyundai partnership, but Hyundai has not--at least not in North America.
Yes, I have never had lower than 28 MPG since my first fillup (not including the gas that was in the car at purchase - that one was 26 MPG). I filled up last night, and with my mixed suburban/hwy route (probably 50% interstate) I bought 10.2 gallons on 320.3 miles. Basically, 32 MPGs.
On trips, I always beat the EPA estimates, usually around 38-39 MPG when I drive 75 MPH. When I go faster (80-85 MPH) that figure drops to around 35 MPG.
Average: 31 MPG
Low: 28 MPG
High: 39.96 MPG (I was so close to cracking 40 MPG!)
I am super pleased with my Accord's economy because it beats the numbers by a good 2-5 MPG when not driven like a madman (I don't rev a lot, normal acceleration for me keeps RPMs under 3,000). Chevron 87 Octane every time.
I think if people would just slow down and not race to every red light, they could match and beat EPA numbers like you and I have; I guess people would rather hurry up and wait, eh?
Doesn't the lack of even a traction control option make sales in the snow belt a bit difficult? Thoughts?
When a 2007 Jetta BASE with Traction Control, Stability Control, and ABS w/ Brake Assist can be had for MSRP $17,570 DELIVERED, and a 2007 Elantra Limited costing nearly $20K has neither option (save for ABS), isn't that a bit odd? Leather and a few more centimeters of interior space won't help the driver in Upstate NY stuck in a ditch on the side of I-90 in the winter.
Hyundai better pray for 5 stars all around NHTSA and a Gold rating by IIHS to atleast try and compensate for this.
Just remember that traction and stability control does not make a car the safest nor does the lack of them make a car unsafe. There are many things that contribute to safety.
Doesn't the lack of even a traction control option make sales in the snow belt a bit difficult? Thoughts?
As one who has never spent a winter south of the 41st parallel I can say that if it does hamper sales its not going to be by much. I, as well as many others, managed to survive very well with out them for years. To be perfectly honest they will be noticeably useful very seldom.
When a 2007 Jetta BASE with Traction Control, Stability Control, and ABS w/ Brake Assist can be had for MSRP $17,570 DELIVERED, and a 2007 Elantra Limited costing nearly $20K has neither option (save for ABS), isn't that a bit odd?
Seeing that I and everyone I know that has one, has had no trouble with our Elantras and everyone I know that has a Jetta has had serious issues with the car the answer is easy. Take the Elantra.
And while you are at it compare the base with the base in each car, it makes for a better price comparison.
Now please take your Hyundai bashing someplace else.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That seems quite contrary to the majority of opinions on the Sonata forum who relentlessly tought the advantages of these devices as absolutes for safety while condemning those autos who lack such options.
I am curious as to what else the Elantra offers that "contributes to safety" that is not found on competing vehicles. Judging by past reviews/experience of the prior generation Elantra and recent reviews of the 2007, it certainly isn't a taunt suspension. What about NHTSA and IIHS scores? If history is any indicator, the Elantra doesn't score well in that category either? Other than some extra standard exploding airbags, what can the Elantra claim?
"I, as well as many others, managed to survive very well with out them for years. To be perfectly honest they will be noticeably useful very seldom."
Really? I guess that's why my ex-local (i've sinced moved to sunny FL) Hyundai dealer in Rochester, NY stocked nothing but previous gen Elantra's with traction control. To those who brave 8 months of cold, snowy winters, it is a necessity.
"Seeing that I and everyone I know that has one, has had no trouble with our Elantras and everyone I know that has a Jetta has had serious issues with the car the answer is easy. Take the Elantra."
Where did annecdotal reliability play a role in my comparison of safety features of the two cars? I have had major problems with my 2004 Elantra and you know me
"And while you are at it compare the base with the base in each car, it makes for a better price comparison. "
Right. Let's compare the base Elantra with no A/C to a base Jetta. That makes economic sense.
How is this Hyundai bashing?? Hyundai claims the Elantra is one of the safest cars in its class yet fails to equip it with modern safety equipment (even taking away previously available TC). How is this "bashing" to point this out?
Well then I am not of the same opinion. I have 3 winters worth of driving experience in the snow and ice of Alaska and 26 winters (going into my 27th) of Upper Midwest snow and ice. None of the cars I have driven in those winters had stability or traction control. Never have I gone off the road or gotten into an accident because of lack of traction. And only twice where I actually got stuck (and I don't think traction control would have helped in either of those circumstances).
I am curious as to what else the Elantra offers that "contributes to safety" that is not found on competing vehicles.
Your working under a false assumption here. Two cars with the exact same safety equipment would not have the same amount of safety.
Really? I guess that's why my ex-local (i've sinced moved to sunny FL) Hyundai dealer in Rochester, NY stocked nothing but previous gen Elantra's with traction control. To those who brave 8 months of cold, snowy winters, it is a necessity.
Really? In 29 winters of driving in northern snowbelt winters I have not really found a need. Nor have I ever really thought "gee I could use traction control".
Where did annecdotal reliability play a role in my comparison of safety features of the two cars?
It doesn't but since you are comparing the two cars I would like to mention the the thing more important to me than traction control is the ability to stay out of the mechanics bay. That is something that VW is having a hard time doing. Yet I rarely, if ever, run into an Elantra owner that spend very much time there.
Right. Let's compare the base Elantra with no A/C to a base Jetta. That makes economic sense
Yep because the base Elantra fully loaded stickers for only $275 more than the Jetta. Plus your getting a sun roof and better gas mileage all in a roomier and more reliable car. Its a no brainer.
How is this Hyundai bashing??
Because all you ever do here is trash Hyundai. If you don't like it fine don't get one. Most people I know who try to tear down something down that they don't like do so because they know how good it is but don't want to admit it. Its a sour grapes sort of thing.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm confused. Other than a taunt, responsive suspension (nope), active safety equipment (TC/ESP)(nope) and passive equipment (ie. airbags), what else does the Elantra offer that contributes to safety that's any better than its competitors?
Considering both Hyundai and VW are BOTH rated far below the industry average in long term dependability, i'm not sure your "argument" holds water. Through a Lexus into the mix and then i'd be inclinded to agree with you.
"Yep because the base Elantra fully loaded stickers for only $275 more than the Jetta. Plus your getting a sun roof and better gas mileage all in a roomier and more reliable car. Its a no brainer."
Your numbers make no sense but I fail to see how a car with a few more "ammenities" like a sunroof and cheap leather interior is the better option when it lacks the very standard features (or even options) that might save your life.
If the definition of trashing Hyundai is simply stating that the car fails for not have significant safety features standard (or even options), then I guess so be it.
Now I will get out from under your bridge.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Let's examine that claim (ABS implies EBD):
Car / Major Standard Safety Equipment (all trims) / Major Optional Safety Equipment
Civic / 6 airbags, ABS, active front head restraints / none
Cobalt / 2 airbags / 4 airbags, ABS, traction control
Corolla / 2 airbags / 6 airbags, ABS, VSC
Elantra / 6 airbags, ABS, active front head restraints / none
Jetta / 6 airbags, ABS, traction control, active front head restraints / ESC
Focus / 2 airbags / 4 airbags, ABS
Mazda3 / 2 airbags, active front head restraints(?) / 6 airbags, ABS, traction control, ESC
Sentra / 6 airbags, active front head restraints / ABS
(Note there are several safety features left off the list, but almost all of them with the exception of a few like 4-wheel discs are on all cars these days. I also left a couple of cars such as the Spectra and Forenza off the list, but their standard safety equipment doesn't match the Elantra's anyway.)
So by the facts, I think Hyundai is justified in saying the Elantra is one of the safest cars in its class, based on standard safety equipment. The only car that surpasses the Elantra there is the Jetta, by virtue of its traction control. The Civic is equivalent to the Elantra in features. All the rest are behind these three.
Note that ESC and traction control are available on Elantras in other countries. I think we'll see both on the Elantra in the U.S. as early as next year, as the automakers jockey for the "best in safety" ring and get ready to support the ESC mandate from the Feds.
Now, if the Elantra doesn't do well on crash tests, I think they have some 'splanin to do.
You got it when you got the ABS package. I'm surprised it's not an option now.
Spectra/6 airbags, 4-wheel disc/ABS, TCS
I have an 05 Spectra EX it it has all of the above safety equipment minus ABS/TSC option.
The Spectra does have standard side bags and curtains, but the car didn't do well on the IIHS crash tests: Poor on the side tests, and only Acceptable on the frontal tests. We don't know yet how the new Elantra will fare, but the Spectra's scores aren't very good at all, especially for a car with six airbags.
Just because a car has all these safety features doesn't necessarily makes it the safest car.
I agree. For example, note the poor IIHS side crash test scores on the Spectra even though it has standard side airbags and side curtains.
The Spectra and Elantra do not share the same body structure. Just by looking at them one can tell they are much different. The Elantra has been redesigned for 2007. So we'll need to see the crash test results on it before making judgments on its crash-worthiness.
Car / HP / Curb Weight (lbs.) / Weight/power
Mazda3i Sport / 148 / 2811 / 18.99
Civic LX / 140 / 2751 / 19.65
Focus S / 136 / 2706 / 19.90
Elantra SE / 138 / 2747 / 19.91
Spectra / 138 / 2767 / 20.05
Corolla LE / 126 / 2615 / 20.75
Sentra S (CVT) / 140 / 2951 / 21.08
Forenza / 126 / 2736 / 21.71
Cobalt / 148 / 3216 / 21.73
Jetta / 150 / 3285 / 21.90
Class average: 20.57
The "champ" is the Mazda3i due to its relatively light weight and powerful engine--tied with the Cobalt for 2nd most powerful in the class. The Jetta has the most powerful engine but also weighs the most.
Of course, there are other factors to straight-line performance, such as torque and gearing. But as these numbers show, having more power isn't everything.
How does the fuel economy stack up?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Civic 30/40
Corolla 30/38
Sentra (CVT) 29/36
Elantra 28/36
Focus 27/34
Mazda3i 26/34
Spectra 25/34 (2006)
Lancer 25/31
Aerio 25/31
Cobalt 24/32
ION 24/32
Forenza 22/31
Jetta 22/30
(I didn't include AWD models, e.g. Aerio AWD and Impreza, because AWD extracts a penalty for fuel economy and thus it wouldn't be a fair comparison. Note that the Elantra and Spectra are in the EPA Family Sedan class, while the others are in the Small Car class.)
So comparing the power and mpg lists, the Civic has the best overall blend of power and fuel economy, while the Forenza and Jetta are at or near the bottom of both lists.
Jetta / 170 / 3285 / 19.32
Focus S / 136 / 2706 / 19.90
Spectra / 138 / 2767 / 20.05
Sentra S (CVT) / 147 / 2951 / 20.07
Elantra SE / 136 / 2747 / 20.20
Cobalt / 155 / 3216 / 20.75
Mazda3i Sport / 135/ 2811 / 20.82
Forenza / 131 / 2736 / 20.89
Corolla LE / 122 / 2615 / 21.43
Civic LX / 128 / 2751 / 21.49
Now we just needs weight/power/price :P. The Focus seems to be the best deal on that list. I got my Focus SE for 14,000 out the door.
Jetta / 170 / 3285 / 19.32
Focus S / 136 / 2706 / 19.90
Sentra S (CVT) / 147 / 2951 / 20.07
Elantra SE / 136 / 2747 / 20.20
Spectra / 136 / 2767 / 20.35
Mazda3i Sport / 135/ 2811 / 20.82
Forenza / 131 / 2736 / 20.89
Cobalt / 152 / 3216 / 21.16
Corolla LE / 122 / 2615 / 21.43
Civic LX / 128 / 2751 / 21.49
As for weight/power/price, you are kidding, right? But price is important also. The thing that makes it difficult to compare prices is that not everyone wants the same level of equipment, and some cars have more equipment standard (or optional) than other cars. So price is only meaningful when comparing cars equipped the way a particular buyer wants them.
Here's an interesting tidbit: what's the only car that's in the top four in all four lists above (safety, fuel economy, power, and torque)? The Elantra. No other car is even in the top 6 in all of the lists. Looks like the exterior curves on the Elantra aren't the only thing about that car that are "well-rounded".
Without RPM, torque means nothing. It's the combination of torque and RPM matters. The combination of torque*rpm divide by a constant number is HP.
A lot of people are confused by the torque on the flywheel and the torque they "feel" on the driving wheels.
When talking about engines, torque means nothing if the RPM is not mentioned at the same time. However, HP is different. It's the combination of borh RPM and torque. 200HP@8000rpm or 200HP@5000rpm will accelerate the same car about the same fast (suppose the trasmittion is optimal, and if you could bear with the engine noise). However, 300ft.lb@2000rpm and 300ft.lb@4000rpm are totally different. Or 300ft.lb@2000rpm and 150ft.lb@4000rpm would do about the same thing.
HP is not a myth. It's the ultimate measurement how much work an engine can do within a given time period. Torque alone doesn't mean anything.
Most ancient windmill generates a few 1000 ft.lb of torque, but they can only rotate a few times per minutes, meaning, it doesn't do much work at all. They are torqueier than almost all car engines. But their output can barely match a scooter.