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Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k)
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Without torque there is no RPM's. Since torque is the force turning something you need torque to get RMP's.
The combination of torque*rpm divide by a constant number is HP.
True HP cannot be measured it is a function of torque.
When talking about engines, torque means nothing if the RPM is not mentioned at the same time.
Same can be said of HP.
However, HP is different. It's the combination of both RPM and torque.
No its not a combination but a function. The more torque the more HP you have or the greater the RPMs are the more HP you have. HP is nothing without torque.
Fact is you have to turn the flywheel to get the car moving and that is torque. Torque is what turns the engine and moves the car. HP doesn't move you forward, torque does.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"Same can be said of HP. " No, just showed you in my previous thread. 300ft.lb@2000rpm and 300ft.lb@4000rpm mean totally different thing. but 200HP@5000rpm and 200hp@8000rpm generates about the same energy.
400ft.lb@2000rpm doesn't push as hard as 200ft.lb@5000rpm. That's why RPM need to be mentioned to make a torque figure meaningful at all. But 200HP@anyRPM means almost the same (suppose the transmition is IDEAL), the rpm doesn't really have to be mentioned here.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you want to have more discussion about the Prius, let's move it to the Prius discussions.
I meant between 06 Spectra and 06 Elantra. Anyway, even the 07 Elantra and current gen 06 Elantra or 06 Spectra shar a lot in common. It can be easily observed. Remember the platform of the HD (07 Elantra) is derived from the XD platform (01 thru 06 Elantra). Essentially the wheel base was stretched by 3 or so inches.
According to Hyundai, the chassis for the 2007 Elantra is "all-new". Not only is it longer than the XD chassis, it is 49% stiffer than the XD's. That means it is significantly different than the Spectra's chassis.
The difference in crash worthiness between the Elantra and Spectra can be seen by comparing the results of the crash tests for the 2006 model cars. Even though the 2006 Elantra was designed in the late '90s, it outperformed the much newer Spectra in crash tests:
NHTSA
Elantra: 5/4/5/4
Spectra: 4/4/4/3
IIHS:
Elantra: Good/Poor/Poor
Spectra: Acceptable/Poor/Acceptable
(The IIHS ranks the 2006 Elantra above the 2006 Spectra in its rankings of Small Cars.)
I think it is a pretty safe bet that the new 2007 Elantra will fare even better than the 2006 Elantra in crash tests.
Let hope the 2007 is better than 2001 Elantra got when they tdo the NHSTA and IISH testing. The first rounds of NHSTA testing back in 2001 were not what Hyundai or anyone expected - they were pathetic. We have seen the same issue on 2006 Sonata which barely outdid 2000 model year.
The NHTSA ratings on the 2001 Elantra were 4/5/5/4--the same as for the 2006 model except the front ratings are flipped. If those were "pathetic", for a car designed in the late '90s, what do you think of the 2006 Spectra's 4/4/4/3 ratings, for a design that debuted in 2004?
The 2000 Sonata didn't receive complete test scores from the NHTSA, but the similar 2002 model got 4 stars across the board. The 2006 model got five stars across the board. I think that's a considerable improvement. Just as the IIHS ratings showed huge improvement: from Acceptable/Poor/Poor for 2000 to Good/Acceptable/Good in 2006. And I expect the 2007 Elantra will show improvement as well.
First time airbags didn't fire correctly. 2nd time airbags fired correctly but seat track came loose and seat moved. 3rd time agency (NHTSA or IIHS) did not want to conduct test but Hyundai convinced them and supplied the car. This did pass but was not good.
The first test for 05/06 Spectra is much better than first test of XD generation.
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=318
The first test of the '05/'06 Spectra, a car that is a generation ahead of the XD Elantra and was designed after the IIHS side impact tests were created, should have been much better than those of a car designed many years earlier. However, they weren't. A "Poor" score on side impact for a recent design with side bags and curtains is unexplicable. And with a couple of tweaks, the Gen 3 Elantra outperformed the newer Spectra even in frontal impacts. That is hard to understand also. Kia has had two years to update the Spectra to get decent crash test results. They haven't done it.
Looks like they may have an issue similiar to Hyundai maybe with side curtain airbags. I wonder if Kia has new programming for side curtain airbags. Hyundai has had 2 recall campaigns in the last year or so on the front airbags.
We don't know if Kia has new programming for side airbags because they haven't supplied a car to the IIHS for a retest, and they haven't announced a recall to fix cars already on the road. As for Hyundai, they have not had two recall campaigns in the past year for the front airbags. They had a reprogramming recall about two years ago, as a result of the IIHS tests on the '04 Elantra. And they had a recall on the OCS sensor (not airbag) more recently.
It would be nice if Kia would take action to beef up the crash protection on the Spectra, don't you think? I would think the lessons Hyundai learned on the Gen 3 Elantra's crash test problems would have taught the folks at Kia a lesson. I guess not.
I read that Hyundai protested the IIHS testing and supplied the thrid car to them.
There were two recalls related to front air bags. One right after I purchased the car which I had done in April of 2005 and the OCS sensor which came out around a year ago. There was a class action lawsuit on this. I have the paperwork but have yet to get it done. The OCS sensor by the way is related to the passenger front air bag as its the sensor to determine the weight of the passenger and to automatically enable/disable it.
I will call Kia and find out if there are any recalls for the car or any service bulletins.
I gave you the link to all these details earlier--I am not pulling them "out of the air."
No surprise that you said that (using recent history as a guide), but keeping the pointless comments (that have no supporting info) to ourselves will make this a much more useful and entertaining discussion.
If you've got a problem with a post, please skip it. Feel free to email me if you find it inappropriate.
~alpha
EDIT: I just got my mag in the mail... gonna go read it now!
The Mazda3 and VW Rabbit.
The Elantra interior looks great, best I can tell. I look forward to seeing it at the auto show this weekend.
Nothing surprising in the review of the Civic or Corolla.
The Sentra's review amazed me; I expected it to be sportier than the Civic. Instead, they call it a mini-Town Car several times. Not what I'd hoped to see from Nissan.
I did like how they referred to its styling, calling it "Plump and puffy, ready to burst out in a giggle." That made me roar with laughter...
Now that I look at this, I am more surprised than I said 8 lines ago... the (insert winner here for others who don't want it spoiled) won the comparo?
This will be taken care of when the SE-R and Spec V models come out, this spring.
I like how the Mazda3 still did very well, despite being the second-oldest design in that group. I'd take one over any others in that group in a heartbeat.
The Mazda 3 is definitely a diamond in the rough of compact cars for sporty shoppers. The article cites tire noise, something I noticed on a friend's 2004 3s sedan that also has 17" wheels. The tires are Noisy with a capital N relative to the Civic. On the other hand, the Civic's styling is incredibly polarizing. While it appears to have hurt it in the testing, I'm glad to see Honda step out and take a risk on styling instead of being bland!
I think that, given C/D's preferences, the finishing order was predictable (except their calling the Mazda3s "too sporty"), although I too was surprised to see the Sentra in last place. IMO it is far superior to the Corolla except in fuel economy.
As often happens in these comparos, they don't stick to their own rules. They set out to test sedans that sticker under $18k, so what do they do? Three of the cars stickered OVER $18k (and there was no way of avoiding it with the Mazda3s Touring), and one of the cars wasn't even a sedan! Predictably, the most expensive cars finished on top. Although that probably made little difference here, as anyone could have predicted that the sharpest-handling cars would finish on top, as they always do in a C/D comparo.
Yes, but remember who the target readers are, 'car enthusiasts.' People who read the magazine are much more likely to prefer a good handling car over a soft-riding one. I really believe that C&D and Motor Trend DO put a bias towards good handlers, but I don't think it is much of a secret.
I was happy to see the Civic NOT completely loaded like every Honda they ever test seems to be. This one came in UNDER the price cap, AMAZING!
Had Mazda been able to supply a $17,685 3s Sport instead of Touring, I doubt if things would have changed, and price was one of the dings that C/D listed against the Mazda anyway. The Sentra also crossed the $18K threshold but finished last, so I don't agree that the most expensive cars finished on top.
Have you driven the new Sentra? I haven't yet, but I was really surprised to see its last place finish, behind the Corolla which debuted in March '02 - a full 16 months before the next oldest Mazda 3 (which would have been my personal choice, given that I disagree with V-Dubs use of a thirsty and none-too-powerful 5 cylinder).
For what its worth, and for those that haven't received their C/Ds, this comparo has been on their website since yesterday, which is why I initially mentioned it.
~alpha
Maybe the Mazda3i Touring, with its 16" wheels, wouldn't have been considered "too sporty" by C/D, and the price would have easily fallen within the $18k limit--as would the Mazda3s Sport.
The Sentra was only over $18k because of the equipment on it. The 2.0S easily fits under $18k with a modicum of equipment such as ABS.
I did drive the new Sentra and posted a review in the Sentra vs. Elantra discussion (because I compared it to the Elantra). I really can't understand why they ranked it below the Corolla, unless they really hate its styling that much.
Besides non-profit, no-ad Consumers Union, I can't think of any publication, print or otherwise, that does this for their regular Road Tests or Comparisons.
They could also ORDER direct from the factory, I suppose, but really, there are limits to practicality.
For what it was worth, I think they did a fine job reviewing a decently level playing field. The ratings and text do a pretty good job of explaining how the Sentra rated below the ancient Corolla, and it was obviously more than styling.
~alpha
Very good choice for a economy sedan IMHO.
i used to, but gave up. my life is much better now.
so, alpha, which of the comparo cars have you driven?
Based on the scores, the Corolla topped the Sentra mainly because it was one tick better in C/D's view in a few categories: trunk space (1 cubic foot bigger; no extra points for Sentra's handy divider I guess); fit and finish; rebates/discounts (what a surprise, the Sentra is brand-new and the Corolla is 4+ years old); engine NVH (personally I thought the Sentra's engine was very smooth and quiet); transmission; handling; and ride. But the biggies were 3 points in Corolla's favor for each of mpg and as-tested price. The last is a joke. C/D tested a stripped Corolla LE without ABS and maybe (C/D wasn't clear on this) side bags and alloys--the Sentra had all those and more. If the two cars had been comparably equipped (still with an advantage to the Sentra in some features like Bluetooth), the price difference would have been only $45.
take care/not offense.
~alpha
I agree that C/D shouldn't have put the 'Sedans' moniker on the cover (they did, correct? I don't have the mag in front of me), but I see no reason why the Golf, uh, I mean, Rabbit... shouldn't have been included. The text itself doesn't mention sedans, so I think that was more of a headline faux pas "Let’s round up the whole class of compact four-doors, equip them with all-natural U-shift-’em gearboxes, and enjoy driving while we compare choices at the low-budget end of the market."
~alpha