Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k)

eldaino · August 2007

really backy?

the esc is the only thing i feel that the civic lacks...i wont mention interior space because the elantra does it better than not just the civic, but the others in this group.

i'd rank the civic higher personally. I think the focus should be higher as well, granted its interior stinks, but the chassis is sublime.

backy · August 2007

I have to disagree that ESC is the only thing the Civic lacks compared to the Elantra. Comparing the 2008 Civic and Elantra of the same price, that is, the Civic LX vs. Elantra SE, the Civic lacks a LOT: ESC, 16" alloys, XM radio (unless the LX adds that for 2008), 60/40 split rear seat with center armrest, heated mirrors, leather wheel and shifter, audio controls on the wheel, fog lamps, 4-wheel discs, not to mention much bigger interior and trunk, and of course the superior warranty. Actually, since the Civic LX's MSRP is about $1000 more than the Elantra SE's, you could add either a moonroof (with heated seats) or an AT to the Elantra and still not pay more than the Civic LX. Oh, and with the current $1000 rebate on the Elantra, you could add BOTH a moonroof/heated seats and AT to the Elantra and pay about the same as for the Civic LX with stick shift. Equipped like that, the Elantra SE is much closer to the Civic EX with AT than the LX, and the Civic EX with AT lists at (hold your hat) $20,105, or about $2500 more than the Elantra SE with moonroof/heated seats and AT, after the $1000 rebate.

What does the Civic have over the Elantra? A little better fuel economy, a little crisper handling (at the expense of ride harshness and road noise), 2 more hp (but less torque), an excellent reliability record (but the Elantra is no slouch there), and excellent resale value.

sandman46 · August 2007

Thousands and thousands of satisfied owners who won't shop anything else. I'd have to say that's something. Just like it took the Japenese brands a long time to get to the status they have now, I think the Korean brands will have to go through the same thing in possibly a shorter time. But what's up with the dismal resale value of Korean cars? It's like most of their models are a generation behind.

The Sandman :confuse:

backy · August 2007

Hey, if some folks want to spend $2500+ more for a car with less room and fewer features, that's their choice, and their money. Me... I'd take a long hard look at alternatives before I write out the check for almost $20k to my local Honda dealer.

As for "dismal resale value", I have four words for you: buy low, sell high. Do that, as I've done and others have done, and the resale value issue is moot.

thegraduate · August 2007

If you believe there is nothing more to a car than the features that makes it up, then Hyundai is more likely the car for you.

I had a problem with the interior of the Sonata, and the fact that I could only get a 4-speed Automatic with the 4-cylinder (c'mon, my granddad's base model '87 Civic DX had a 4-speed!). Also, the interior finish/exectution was not where I'd hope it would be. The Elantra is the better Hyundai, IMO.

To me, it was worth the difference to get what I'd be happiest with over the long term than to pocket some money and settle for a car that I found less desireable.

For those that find the Hyundai as/more desirable than a more expensive competitor, by all means, get the Hyundai! It doesn't make me wrong for laying out more to get something I desired more, does it?

sandman46 · August 2007

It's more than "some folks" actually. Look at the sales figures. Personally, I'd rather spend the extra $ for the "quality" of say a Honda, Toyota, Nissan or Volkswagon product. These brands have that certain...something that I can't put quite into words, that certain something that makes the additional expense so much worth it. It's like the difference between a Toyota and a Lexus...a Honda or an Acura. You just know it the minute you open the door and sit down. This "something" that I don't think the Korean cars have or will have for some time to come.
We all choose how to spend our hard earned $'s and I think the sales figures say it all! Cars are my true passion in life and since we don't blow the budget on them, I'm more than happy to spend on that extra quality, that certain "something" that I won't even try to convince you is there.

The Sandman

backy · August 2007

These brands have that certain...something that I can't put quite into words, that certain something that makes the additional expense so much worth it.

I understand, and I think I know what it is, at least for Honda: it's the trapezoidal "H" on a Honda vs. the "flying H" on the Hyundai.

I've owned two Hondas, three Toyotas, two Nissans... and two Hyundais. That, plus all the cars I test drive and drive as rentals, puts me in a pretty good position I think to compare the quality of cars. And nowadays, the quality difference has shrunk to the point where, IMO, it's no longer worth the price premium charged by the likes of Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. But as I said, it's your choice and your money. You put it into the trapezoidal "H" if you want... I'll put it into my 401K or my kids' 529s.

backy · August 2007

If you believe there is nothing more to a car than the features that makes it up, then Hyundai is more likely the car for you.

I think you've been around Town Hall long enough and seen enough of my posts that you know that is not what I believe at all.

However, I don't believe in paying the "brand premium" for a Civic, for example, if that brand premium doesn't provide a good return on my investment. Up to a few years ago, I thought the brand premium was worth it because I was getting for my extra cash outlay considerably higher quality and/or function than what I could get for a little less money. Now, thanks to improvements by other automakers, the quality/function gap has closed to a very narrow one, while the brand premium has not shrunk much at all, and maybe even increased.

If as sandman implied, a large number of people simply walk into the Honda dealer and buy a Civic (and I believe that happens quite a bit), they'll never know for sure what value they're really getting for the brand premium. I think smart car shoppers owe it to themselves to do the research and find out exactly how much or how little value they are getting for that brand premium.

thegraduate · August 2007

I'm sorry, when I said "you" I meant in the universal sense, not JUST you backy. I should've said "if one believes...", because if someone tends to focus on features for the money, then I don't think anyone can beat Hyundai.

I think Hyundai offers a lot for the money, and maybe on paper, i got less value than if I had gotten a comparable Sonata. In fact, on paper I know I did.

But its in the details where I was more pleased with the Accord, something that was worth the premium to me, if not everyone.

targettuning · August 2007

As a former Hyundai owner and current (and first time) Honda owner I can tell you first hand that when gas hit $3.00+ per gallon for the first time ever in the fall of 2005 I didn't give any thought whatever about going into our local Honda store to look into trading our 2003 Santa Fe for the then new Gen.8 2006 Civic. I ultimately did that and now after owning that Civic since late Oct.2005 regret my choice. But the point here is backy IS correct. People, even first time Honda buyers like me, simply walk into a Honda store and buy one without any forethought..without any comparison..without any idea at all that there is a whole automotive universe "out there" that doesn't necessarily include Honda. In my particular case even though I am an automobile person and did my research (I love everything about them except repair bills)I still did it without any doubt that a Honda would be a wonderful choice. After almost two years of Honda ownership (and without going yet again into my woes)I fervently wish I had done what I initially had hoped to do..buy a Sonata V-6. Yeah, I was absolutely sure a Honda would be perfectly acceptable given all the glowing lip service in places like this and "good ink" in auto magazines and ownership polls and JD Powers surveys et.al. Regrettably I was wrong.

eldaino · August 2007

People, even first time Honda buyers like me, simply walk into a Honda store and buy one without any forethought..without any comparison..without any idea at all that there is a whole automotive universe "out there" that doesn't necessarily include Honda.

even the poor experience with your civic made it hard to swallow this statement.

what automotive universe 'doesn't include' honda? this could mean so many things and apply to so many different car manufactures.

Just walk into a honda dealer without cross shopping? NOT ME!! I looked around even before i got my first civic, and it did me good regardless. The second time i did it, i ended up with a vee dub. This statement is totally not valid, and even if it did apply to the causal' honda enthusiast...you know the one who looks at the mpg rating on the window sticker and decides that is the reason to buy? Well, thats not hondas fault. Maybe its theirs for NOT cross shopping.

Backy; while i agree that the koreans do have their strengths with regards to content levels, there are still things that go without saying....questionable build quality, 4 speed automatic transmissions, dismal resale value...why does all this exist?

could hyundai command the price premium say, toyota or honda does, with their current vehicles? one would think they could, given their obvious superiority with regards to content!

to echo what sandman said, brands like honda an vw have followers and enthusiasts because they have that special something, not just an upright logo.

And while i agree that japanese automakers have a habit of looking at other companies, such as many european brands, and improving upon initial designs, the copycat theme is HORRENDOUSLY over exagerated in hyundai's line up: they actually TRY to make their models look like the competitors and then advertise it all over the tv. And the commercials? good grief!!! could we get ONE hyundai commercial that does not feel the need to comment on how much roomier x car is over the comparable honda/toyota/nissan/subaru/vw/mazda product? :sick:

Even hyundai themselves are condescending towards the competition and to the purchasers of other cars...i mean, a sales even called the DUH sales event? as in you are so stupid you couldn't realize the OBVIOUS choice should have been a hyundai over than new civic/3/sentra/rabbit you just bought? Geez hyundai, lighten up!

I mean, honestly, where would they be without all the uber low prices and constant discounts?

I just think that if your products are that amazing, you shouldn't have to push in that way.

Honda did do a commercial one time that made me cringe, the one with the college kids talking about how good their civic's resale is, but thankfully, it no longer airs.

and to echo what grad and sandman said again: fierce buyer loyalty! are your buyers really displaying 'loyalty' if you are just buying the car for a content level and its uber low price?

even with regards to materials used, hyundai is still trailing; while even i like the elantra, even edmunds was key to point out that it still sported fabrics and plastics that would NEVER make the cut in a civic. And certainly not in one of the 'premium' appointed compacts, such as the rabbit or 3.

backy · August 2007

Questionable build quality? Here's something to try: go look in Town Hall re the problems buyers are having with the 2006-7 Civic. Then go look in Town Hall re the problems with the 2007 Elantra. Big difference... and not in favor of the Civic.

It's really simple why Honda and Toyota can charge more for their cars than Hyundai: brand equity. Toyota had a 30 year head start on Hyundai in the U.S. building buyer loyalty and brand equity. Honda had a 15 year head start. Brand loyalty/equity isn't built overnight. But consider the big jump in out-the-door prices on Hyundais in the past couple of years. Not long ago, a fully loaded Elantra could be had for $12-13k--that is with leather, ABS, moonroof, alloys, AT etc. I know; I bought one of those for $13k in early 2004. Now a comparable Elantra is at least a couple thousand more than that. So the prices are coming up, as the products improve and word gets out. But still thousands lower than a less equipped, less roomy, less comfortable Civic.

Personally I thought the DUH sales event was very toungue-in-cheek, and deliberately so. So I'm not sure what you mean by "Hyundai, lighten up!" And why shouldn't they emphasize their product advantages over the competition in their ads--including interior room? After all, I see Honda's ads all over touting their fuel economy and reliability. What would you prefer, Hyundai ads that say, "We won't tell you why you should buy our cars vs. the competition, but please come in and buy one anyway, they are really good cars." I think that is an unrealistic and unreasonable opinion you have about product marketing.

Re materials, here is what C/D said about the fabrics and plastics in the Elantra (Dec. 2006):

The Highs: Top-quality interior materials and details, sit-all-day seats, slick shifter and clutch, smooth ride.

The interior is nicely styled, with plenty of contour sculpted into the dashboard and sophisticated use of texture and sheen to suggest luxurious surroundings. [comment on storage space] The front buckets have a plush feel; they did a better job of eliminating pressure points than those in the Honda [Civic] or Toyota [Corolla].

That sounds pretty darn nice to me, especially for about a few thousand less than a Civic and its "overly sculpted dash" and "too many interior textures" (C/D again).

targettuning · August 2007

I suppose that you missed the point of that statement. What I meant is that there are loyal (as the theme of this thread implies) Honda buyers who pretty much ignore what the competition has to offer even the fact that there MAY be some form of competition. So, hard to swallow or not that applies to countless thousands of car buyers..every day...day in and day out. Further, I know the actual "universe" of auto manufacturers surely includes Honda but going back to my previous statement it means that for those "fiercely loyal" Honda repeat buyers there might as well NOT be another brand and that,for them,the entire automotive "universe" IS Honda.
And yes believe it or not there are those who do not cross shop (I did and I guess you did)before buying...what? yet another Honda.
Finally, you (and Edmunds too) may think that the interior fabrics and plastics would not make the cut in a Civic but I KNOW otherwise. I have a standing appointment to have the drivers side seat cushion cover replaced on our 2006, 9500 mile old EX sedan. The texture of the pattern in the fabric has worn to the point where the pattern is going...going...GONE in a 4" X 3" patch. This in addition to the crummy "waffle" pattern plastics around the arm rest/door pull the scratches if you look at it. So, given my experience with those very items please forgive me if I don't exactly believe those statements.

lilengineerboy · August 2007

Finally, you (and Edmunds too) may think that the interior fabrics and plastics would not make the cut in a Civic but I KNOW otherwise. I have a standing appointment to have the drivers side seat cushion cover replaced on our 2006, 9500 mile old EX sedan. The texture of the pattern in the fabric has worn to the point where the pattern is going...going...GONE in a 4" X 3" patch. This in addition to the crummy "waffle" pattern plastics around the arm rest/door pull the scratches if you look at it. So, given my experience with those very items please forgive me if I don't exactly believe those statements.

Yeah thats weird. Our '93 Civic fabric (and the '87 before that) held up really well. The squeaks and rattles were a different story.
I also noticed that the carpet and upholstery in the '93 Accord EX seems nicer (the carpet is thicker, the mats are thicker, and the seat fabric is softer) than the '07 Accord EX.

backy · August 2007

I agree, the '93 Civic had excellent materials quality and IMO was the top compact at that time. But this is 2007 and we're talking about a Civic that is a few generations removed from that car.

targettuning · August 2007

For what is worth, and not on topic for sure, we have as a second car a 1995 Dodge Stratus ES. We are the third owner (my daughter owned it for 5 or so years and she was the second). Anyhow, this car has 189,430 miles and aside from one cigarette "melt" mark on the passenger seat its upholstry looks absolutely new. The pattern,color of the fabric,and retention of the cushion firmness and shape is outstanding. How can I compare this to our new Honda and not come away disappointed??? I can't....

eldaino · August 2007

i dont doubt your dissapointment, and i agree about not being able to look past this particular incident... but yours is an isolated incident.

and to you and backy both,(before we go back to the 'read all the other posters!' argument) referring to how many people in town hall complain about there civics...there are a hell of alot of people driving them, some of which come to this site PURPOSEFULY to talk about nothing BUT their problems.

Compare how many civics you see on the road to elantras and the picture gets clearer.

with regards to hyundai's marketing; there is nothing wrong with trying to convince people why your cars are better, but its just the 'way' that they do it; attacking certain cars by name, companies by name etc...it just give a huge air of trying to hard to those who don't buy it.

its this all-encompasing attitude that is typical of A LOT of hyundai owners. (i'm not assuming this, just read around on this site, not to mention my experience with close relatives and friends who drive em.) you could be talking about any kind of car and you'll get a random 'well, i would rather have my 100k warranty!'.

its a valid point and def a great feature on hyundai's, but it has a big air of 'look at me and my outstanding car!'.

pat · August 2007

Let's stick to the cars without attempting to characterize the owners please.

1racefan · August 2007

"What I meant is that there are loyal (as the theme of this thread implies) Honda buyers who pretty much ignore what the competition has to offer even the fact that there MAY be some form of competition"

I agree with you - in fact, this used to be me and my wife - Loyal Honda Owners. We still own a Honda, an '06 Element, just because there really wasn't anything that competed directly with it (in terms of the utility of the interior, 4wd, etc..).

When we replaced her 96 Civic back in 2001, her dad insisted we go look at the '02 Elantra. We did, and it now has 94,000 miles on it, and has held up extremely well.

Just last week, we bought a new car. Initially, I was inclined to just go buy a Civic (as we don't like the looks of the new Elantra, and the Corolla is outdated), but I decided to stop at the Mitsubishi store and look at the '08 Lancer. We were very impressed with the styling, as well as "bang for the buck" of the Lancer.

We bought the Lancer, and got a car with a CVT transmission, Bluetooth, nice stereo, alloy wheels, fog lights, rear spoiler, on board data computer (tracks service intervals, MPG, etc...), 7 air bags (including a knee air bag), tire pressure monitoring system, 4 wheel disc brakes with ABS and EBD, for an extremely reasonable price. Not to mention, it has the 5/60 bumper to bumper, and 10/100 powertrane warranties. This dealer has been in the area for 10 years, and their service department is highly regarded for their quality of work, and good customer service.

I plan to keep the car until it croaks, so I will post updates on it over in the Lancer forum over time.

targettuning · August 2007

#1.) how do you know mine is an isolated incident? The number of owners who frequent these owner sites is but a fraction of overall owners. There may be more going on "out there" than you know.
#2.)Yes, I complain but I consider it a way to balance all the supposed "good" being passed around about this car. And don't get me wrong there is good..the styling (in my eyes anyhow) the fuel economy and other things too but it isn't ALL good. What sort of review or owner site would this be if nothing but a constant Honda commercial played here?? All singing birds and sunlight skies??
#3.) Check some TV commercials tonight instead of going to the kitchen for a brew and you will find every advertiser trying to get you/me to buy their product instead of another. Check the B.M.W. driving down the road in a group of Accura..Mercedes..Lexus..Infinity then taking an off ramp as the announcer say B.M.W. pays for things the other don't. All companies "attack" their competition so this is an irrelevent line of logic.
#4.) What attitude by Hyundai owners? Trying to get across to others that Hyundai is a great car? In my opinion it is and the fact they offer many many more features for less money PLUS a 100K mile warranty is gravy. So then you are saying I should be overjoyed my Honda has a 3 year 36K mile warranty because...what? I won't need it anyhow? Does that say: "make mine a Honda it doesn't need a long warranty"?

backy · August 2007

There are a couple (at least) ways to compare cars. One is comparing how the car fares against your requirements, without respect to price. The other includes price as a key factor. Some automotive mags/sites take one approach vs. the other. For example, CR doesn't include price in their rankings except they group cars into general categories, which can have a wide price range (e.g. a $11k Accent or Yaris compared to a $20k Civic or Mazda3).

Looking at these cars without regard to price, cars like the Mazda3s, Jetta, and to some extent the Civic stand out I think. For example, the Mazda3s has good power, great handling, great looks, a nice interior, and upscale options such as nav and leather. The Jetta has a classy interior, rock-solid structure, powerful engine (esp. for 2008), good ride and handling balance, great safety, and upscale options available. The Civic has great fuel economy, good handling, good safety, high resale value and upscale options available.

But these cars all top $17k in basic trim, much more when equipped with popular features such as AT and moonroofs.

For someone looking at economy sedans and price is a factor (and I think that's true in most cases, given the "economy" angle), there are some other compelling choices in this class available for significantly less dollars. Examples are the Elantra, Lancer, and Spectra. And even the Versa, which is considered a "B" class car but has as much if not more interior room than many cars in this class. You may give up some things, such as a 4-speed AT vs. a 5-speed, or painted plastic door pulls vs. metal, or near-term lower resale value as a percentage of MSRP. But there are advantages beyond dollar savings, too, such as additional features, room, warranty, etc. It's up to each buyer to lay out his/her requirements for a car, take a close look at the alternatives, determine which cars cross the bar before price is considered, then figure out the best value for their money. And, can they live with anything in the higher-priced car(s) that they don't get with the less expensive car(s).

Or it can be much simpler than that, e.g. "I really love [fill in the brand name] and that's what I'm going to buy, even if it costs a lot more than other brands." But then there's no need for Edmunds.com with that kind of decision.

1racefan · August 2007

"For someone looking at economy sedans and price is a factor (and I think that's true in most cases, given the "economy" angle), there are some other compelling choices in this class available for significantly less dollars. Examples are the Elantra, Lancer, and Spectra"

To get an ES Lancer (middle of the road) with the CVT (and no additional options such as a sunroof) stickers over $17K as well. You can get the "bare bones" DE Lancer for under $17K (well, this one stickers for under $17K, I should say), but I don't think the bang for the buck is as great as it is with the ES and GTS trims.

helpmefindacar · August 2007

For those of you that have a Yaris....Do you like it and Have you had any problems with it?
Thanks

backy · August 2007

The discounts are not as big on the Lancer right now, although I've seen the ES advertised for around $15k. That's at least a couple thousand less than a comparably-equipped Civic or Mazda3s or Jetta.

backy · August 2007

In addition to posting this in the Yaris discussion (which you did), you could also try the Low End Sedans discussion, which is about cars under $16k--that's where the Yaris slots.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.eeca63c/3771

backy · September 2007

There's a comparo of economy sedans (well, and one wagon) in the October Consumer Reports. The ranking order, from top to bottom, is:

Hyundai Elantra GLS
Scion xB
Mitsubishi Lancer ES
Nissan Sentra 2.0S

(All cars had automatic transmissions.)

The Elantra now trails the Civic EX and Hybrid, Focus ZX4 SES, Mazda3i, and Jetta in CR's rankings of Small Cars. The xB is 2nd in CR's rankings of Wagons and Hatchbacks, behind the Mazda3s Grand Touring.

I thought CR's review aligns pretty much with my impressions of the three cars I've driven--Elantra, Lancer, and Sentra. I would rank them in the same order. One thing I like about CR's reviews is they are matter-of-fact; they don't try to get clever or cutesy like the automotive mags and web sites do sometimes. That makes the reviews dry to read, but that's OK for what they are.

One thing I don't understand is how they can rank the old Focus so high. The only good thing about the current Focus IMO is that it has a nice blend of ride and handling. But that's about it. I certainly can't see how they can rank it above the Mazda3i, the Civic Hybrid, the Jetta, and even the Elantra, Lancer, Sentra, and Spectra. I think CR needs to re-test the Focus directly against some newer designs and see that the Focus has lost ground in the past few years. Maybe the 2008 Focus will make the car more competitive.

The other thing that frustrates me about CR's comparos is that they don't test cars with comparable equipment. That is in itself not a big deal, as it's hard to align equipment levels on several cars. But what I don't like is that they jump on things that would be addressed by a different trim level, had they chosen it, and they praise features of some cars that are available on others, but don't mention those features are available on the other cars.

For example, in this comparo, CR chose the Elantra GLS with AT, preferred package, and moonroof. So the Elantra's MSRP was $17,555. For the Lancer, they chose not the DE, but the ES and w/o a moonroof. For the xB, they added options such as overhead console, lighted doorsills, and rear spoiler. And for the Sentra, they chose the 2.0S and added alloys and Intelligent Key among other options.

So, why not choose the Elantra SE, w/o moonroof, which would have been a much closer match in trim level for the Lancer ES and Sentra 2.0S? It would have cost about the same as the GLS with moonroof, but it includes bigger rubber and a telescopic wheel. CR carped about the Elantra's tire grip, lack of sporty handling, and lack of a telescopic wheel--the SE would have probably eliminated or at least reduced those issues. They also praised the Sentra's leather steering wheel, meaning they probably gave it some points for that. The Elantra SE has that feature.

If CR is going to compare cars with different trim levels and options, I think they should list the most comparable trim levels with prices in the review, or at least clearly state the cost of the cars they tested w/o options, so readers don't get the wrong impression on prices ("Gee, the Elantra is the same price as the Lancer", or "The Jetta is $6000 more than the Elantra and Lancer").

herotakesafall · September 2007

Hey, Backy. I just got my CR and figured you would have already made a post!

One thing I was very surprised to see that you didn't mention was the performance numbers for the Elantra vs. the Lancer. The Lancer has that new 2.0L from the "global alliance" or whatever with the CVT, compared to the old Hyundai 2.0L with the 4-speed auto that we all griped about. Yet it was only marginally slower 0-60 than the Lancer, *faster* than the Lancer from 45-65, and offered 27 mpg versus the Lancer's 25 mpg. And the Lancer was only 50 pounds heavier. That was very surprising to me. Apparently the dated powertrain in its newly tweaked version is more competitive than we thought.

I too am surprised with CR's consistent praise of the Focus. They feel it's easily the most fun car to drive in the small-car segment and don't rate it down nearly enough, in my opinion, for its obvious lack of safety features. Regardless, they're the professionals. And all the CR haters who are convinced they treat American cars unfairly always forget how much they looove the Focus. But I digress.

I too thought it was disappointing they didn't pick the Elantra SE, especially since all the other cars had 16" wheels. I'm too lazy to look myself, but perhaps you can't get ABS with the Lancer DE and base Sentra? Even so, I'm guessing the test numbers wouldn't have been much different, maybe not even enough to bump it past the Jetta. But it did aggravate me to see that they added the totally unnecessary sunroof, especially when they make it a point to compare the prices of the vehicles. And that irked me to see them complain about the lack of telescopic wheel (only in the GLS) and the bad tire grip. But it was still faster in the avoidance maneuver test than the sportier Lancer and the "sloppy" Sentra. Come to think of it, Hyundais always seem to post very high speeds through those tests despite having "soft" handling in most of their models. Oh, and they always have braking that wins the comparisons, too.

Oops, I rambled again.

backy · September 2007

ABS is optional on the base Sentra and the Lancer DE. But I think ABS is optional on the Sentra 2.0S also?

Maybe Hyundai made the right decision keeping the old Beta II around for awhile longer. Maybe they are waiting until the new engines are competitive or better in fuel economy.

steve333 · September 2007

I can't believe people actually base car buying on what CR says. Newsflash-you want a car review, pick up a car mag.
CR knows toasters and microwaves, not cars, not stereos, not computers.
CR is basically worthless for anything other than home appliances, IMO.

backy · September 2007

I pick up a lot of car mags. I don't buy a car based on what CR says, although maybe there are some people who do that. But I find their reviews useful, because they take an analytical, dispassionate approach, and their biases are different than those of the car mags, so I get a different perspective from CR than I do from the car mags. But it's just one opinion and one data point in my car buying process.

iluvmysephia1 · September 2007

I pick up. Sometimes I don't pick it up at a store at all when there is a C&D around or a MT around. CR is slow at picking up car changes in Kia's, something I learned long ago.

I agree, CR is fine for washing machines or toasters, but woefully lacking in reviewing cars. It just seems that they can't see the forest for the trees in too many ways. I usually regret picking one up after I pick it up. After a while too many "negative" beans get thrown in the CR basket in my head, and, hence, they're eliminated from usefulness for me. Just my opinion, and opinions are like noses, everyone has one.

poncho167 · September 2007

"CR is basically worthless for anything other than home appliances, IMO."

I agree, that rag is garbage other than the tractor, weed whip, and non auto related items. This is a magazine that outsources tests including that big blunder this past spring with the child safety seats that the company that they paid gave 9 out of 11 bad ratings, only to find out later they didn't know what they were doing. CR comes out and apologizes because the public found out and they were trying to save their name for those who actually subscribe to this misinformation. Like you said, stay with auto magazines.

backy · September 2007

cars?

Like how about, if you don't agree with how CR rated these four cars, how would you rate them? What did you think when you drove them?

bprenderson · September 2007

Good comment, Backy!!

Maybe they'll report back to us after they drive the four cars........

Bubba

steve333 · September 2007

I'll get my reviews from the major car mags-there are at least 4 of them, then test drive each one that I'm interested in. Mitsubishi is autolatically off my list, the ones i would consider are the mazda 3, Chevy Cobalt, Ford Focus, Suzuki SX4, Elantra, Spectra, and thats about it unless Honda brings the Civic interior down from Planet Pluto.

I'd line my birdcage with CR (if I had a bird)

sandman46 · September 2007

You'd be surprised at how one can get used to the interior of the Civic. We've all come to love the two tiered dash layout as one can always see the speedo without taking the eyes off the road. While cleaning the expansive dash area yesterday, I noticed the long reach down to the glass of the windshield which makes it tough to detail that area. Agreed...poor design on Hondas part. But the rest works for us and I think the blue gauges are easier to read than the red gauges of our Mazda3, even with the lights turned down. Blue is a much more soothing color especially at night.

The Sandman

backy · September 2007

A lot is made of the "weirdness" of the Civic's interior, especially the dash, but in typical Honda fashion it does seem to work despite being outside the norm. Actually, it's not that far removed from the dash on my '85 Civic. That had two tiers (regular instrument binnacle though), and a lot of curves and angles, but it worked fine. When I drove the '06 Civic, I found the speedo initially distracting, but I think I'd grow to like it over time. I think the Civic is an excellent economy car; my only issue (other than the rather smallish interior and trunk compared to some competitors) is its price. It's hard for me to pay as much for a basic Civic (LX) as I would for a nicely equipped mid-sized or even full-sized car.

sandman46 · September 2007

But for what I really wanted and could afford...I got. I was lucky in that I had about $21k to spend, including the trade. The Volvo S40 was at the top of my list. Great, safe car with wonderful seats for my spinal condition. Unfortunately, I couldn't get within my $ range and wouldn't go over it. The Civic was my 2nd choice and the wife nixed the sunroof, so that left the LX. Was very happy with everything about the car and got a price within my target area.
Had test drove the Elantra earlier but it just wasn't for me. Ditto the Corolla and the Lancer. Since the wife already had the Mazda 3s, didn't really want another Mazda. That's how I fell into the Civic. I was lucky in that I had months to test drive cars and when I was indeed ready to buy, it was somewhat painless. My previous Sentra was having warranty issues, so I got to drive about 1/2 dozen small economy and mid sized rentals. great way to compare cars. Luckily, Enterprise was very accomodating with all the switches i did.

The Sandman

poncho167 · September 2007

For the value and longterm I would take the Chevy, Mazda, Ford. Not much interested in the others and I agree the Mitsu would not even be a consideration.

steve333 · September 2007

I guess I find its looks more offputting than the design itself. The price is quite a turn off too! I guess I would place the Mazda 3 on top in terms of looks, design, layout, and value, although it can be a little pricy also.
The Cobalt is close to being a winner-it needs a telescoping steering wheel, slightly better steering, and better build quality. I bought mine when the old Civic was still out and the Cobalt is loads better than the old Civic. I would have preferred the 3 but they were hard to find at the time.

sandman46 · September 2007

You're actually saying that the new Cobalt is better than the last generation Civic? That's like comparing apples to oranges in my opinion. I think most people would rather have a Civic over a Cobalt anyday of the week. I'd rather have a slightly used foreign car over the Cobalt. If one would be comparing a Civic from maybe the mid 90's, I might agree. The Cobalt that we test drove as a rental was sooooo bad that we took it back the next day. It was as bad as the Malibu Classic I had two years ago in New Hampshire. Lasted a day and a half. Both had rock hard seats which made my spinal problems so bad that i was popping my morphine every 6 or so hours. Horrible seats and lackluster driving characteristics to say the least.
I will give GM credit for the mid and large sized cars with the power seats...a much different animal in every respect. The Impala LTZ rocked though the mileage was dismal. Great seats, acceleration & XM radio made it a hoot to drive!

The Sandman

backy · September 2007

There's been some good posts recently on preferences in this class. Which economy sedan(s) would you seriously consider buying, and why? Which would you NOT put your hard-earned bucks into, and why not? Here's my take:

Would Consider:
Civic LX: fuel economy, safety, good handling, reputation for reliability, powertrain (Cons: price, road noise, smallish interior, no ESC, low feature content)
Elantra SE or Touring: smooth ride, big interior, quiet, standard ESC, smooth shifter/clutch, good feature content, wagon available (early 2008), reputation for reliability, warranty (Cons: IIHS side crash test score not available)
Impreza: AWD, likely to be excellent in safety (new model), reputation for reliability, hatchback available, power (Cons: fuel economy, pricey).
Mazda3i Touring: handling, sporty looks, slick MT, reputation for reliability (Cons: no U.S. crash test results with SABs, rear seat not very roomy, nervous ride, no ESC, pricey when well-equipped).
Optima LX AT: blend of ride and handling, interior room and quality, safety, power, warranty (Cons: ABS/ESC package hard to find, pricey unless the big rebates hang around).
Rabbit S (3-dr): good blend of ride and handling, power, safety, ESC available, interior, versatile (Cons: fuel economy, reputation for poor reliability, 5-door is pricey).
SX4: AWD and hatchback available, ESC, long powertrain warranty (Cons: low fuel economy, few dealers, lack of crash test data)
Versa: crash safety, interior room, smooth ride, hatchback available, interesting features available like Intelligent Key and Bluetooth, 6MT (Cons: fuel economy doesn't make up for low power compared to cars above, no ESC, ABS hard to find, rear seat doesn't fold flush).

Cars coming next year that might cross the bar for me:
Astra - new model for 2008, looks like a nice package on paper, good safety features, re-badged Opel.
Corolla - new design; likely to be pricey when well-equipped; needs to have improved driving position and standard safety features to be considered.
Fit - new design; needs improvement in driving position and rear crash safety to be considered.

Doesn't cross the bar:
Aerio: harsh ride, low fuel economy, a dead model (see SX4).
Caliber: cheap interior bits, uncomfortable seats, low fuel economy, reliability?
Cobalt: tight rear seat, uncomfortable driving position, cheap interior bits, no ESC, reliability?
Focus (2007): poor in crash safety, no ESC, cheap interior bits, uncomfortable driving position. (Restyled Focus coming for 2008, might be worth a look if safety and interior are improved).
ION: cheap and uncomfortable interior, no ESC, a dead model (see Astra).
Jetta: see Rabbit. Since it costs a lot more than the Rabbit 3-door, I'd go that route.
Forenza/Reno: unrefined powertrain and handling, low fuel economy, poor in crash safety, no ESC.
Lancer: cheap interior bits, low fuel economy, few dealers, no ESC.
Sentra: no ESC; otherwise it's a decent car, but inferior IMO to the cars listed above, plus it's rather pricey well-equipped. Also I'm not fond of the styling.
Spectra: no ABS available except on top end trim (which is pricey), no ESC, poor in crash safety, uncomfortable driver's seat; about the same price as Elantra but I like Elantra much better.

poncho167 · September 2007

"Both had rock hard seats which made my spinal problems so bad that i was popping my morphine every 6 or so hours."

Those horrible rock hard seats as you say are actually very good. They were specially designed for this car by a well known seat designer/builder to be very comfortable on commutes and long distance driving. You especially need firm seats while driving long distance. I have found them to be very comfortable.

targettuning · September 2007

I will post a few thoughts on first Consumer Reports then a few more on the gen 8 Civic.
With regard to CR..why do some think they are competent testing washers or dryers or diswashers but not cars? They take the same approach. They actually buy their products without identifying themselves as opposed to the major auto magazines. They are loaned automobiles by the MANUFACTURER and you can bet those loaned cars and trucks have been tweeked and groomed and presented in the best light possible.
I do read C&D and MT and R&T etc and yes they are useful (in a limited way) entertaining and amusing (especially C&D) the cars are usually picked and panned based on acceleration (first and foremost) handling at the absolute limits (a point at which most never approach) braking, interior size, fuel economy and to a lesser degree other factors such as styling etc but never fit and finish (unless the doors are falling off) and never long term quality (unless it is a Honda and that by brand name association). CR on the other hand does not amuse in its tests (unless it is unintentional) but does present information in a matter of fact way. They do not to appear to cater to certain manufacturers unless that manufacturer has demonstrated a long term history in quality and they are not shy in saying certain manufacturers are going down hill in quality (Mercedes for instance) or others are on the rise (Hyundai for instance). They employ professional personnel where auto testing is involved (and other testing as well). As an example of what I consider brand bias in a recent test of the Veracruz verses Lexus RX 350 M.T. (July 2007) the Hyundai was grudgingly picked over the Lexus with the parting shot... (referring to the Lexus) "Still a well polished piece if you want everything that goes with the badge and are willing to pay a bit more for it" A "bit" more? Try $10,465 more. More than a bit to me. Anyhow CR would have just declared the Hyundai the winner and been done with it. I do not discount CR for these and other reasons.
My take on the Civic verses everything else. I own one (a 2006 EX sedan auto. ) and I am currently looking to trade..sell or otherwise dispose of it in order to get back into a Hyundai of some type (Sonata or Elantra) so that is what I think of Honda. Nuff said.

lilengineerboy · September 2007

They actually buy their products without identifying themselves as opposed to the major auto magazines.

So they get a regional buying experience from 2 or 3 dealers...not too impressive so far.

They are loaned automobiles by the MANUFACTURER and you can bet those loaned cars and trucks have been tweaked and groomed and presented in the best light possible.

Eh, having driven these "tweaked" cars, I think what you mean is beat to hell. Cars in the press fleet pool have been beaten on and ragged on by every 2-bit thinks-hes-Mario-Andretti journalist in the business. Edmunds did a write up on a Saab 9-5 wagon after the major car mags had "finished with it." It wasn't pretty.

As far as CR, I think there is forum dedicated to their reporting already and if its biased or not or intentionally or unintentionally and are they communists or not etc (okay, maybe a lil carried away with the last one), there is plenty of info there if you are interested.
Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings

stevecebu · September 2007

My take on the Civic verses everything else. I own one (a 2006 EX sedan auto. ) and I am currently looking to trade..sell or otherwise dispose of it in order to get back into a Hyundai of some type (Sonata or Elantra) so that is what I think of Honda. Nuff said.

Just curious why you haven't liked the Civic. The Civic LX is on a list of cars for my wife to putter around with as well as a Scion xD and a Mazda 3 as other possibilities.
Myself I last owned a Civic in 1998 and they had less power than the current Honda Fit. But I didn't care for the seats in the older civics as I have a bad back.
Just wondering what it is that you like so much about the Hyundai and dislike about the Civic?
For us I have a no automatic transmission policy so everything must have a manual in it, or I will not buy it.
My experience with Hyundai's is limited to friends who owned the much older ones that broke all the time and dealers were booked for many weeks or even 2 months with a backlog of repairs fro warranty work.
Other than that I have rented Hyundai's and most of those had bits of the trim falling off after 6 months etc....
Of course those are rentals and as such they are treated carelessly.

targettuning · September 2007

I have been vocal about our experiences with the Civic around the site enough so I won't go into our problems yet again. Suffice it to say I have not been happy with the Honda experience. Maybe I expected too much from Honda and since this was our first and maybe not Honda's best effort I was let down.
What do I like about Hyundai? I personally have owned two in recent years, a 2002 and 2003 Santa Fe and sold the 03 only because gas went over $3.00/gal. in the fall of 2005 for the first time ever (and who knew what was to happen in the future). The Civic has just over 10K miles and has been back for warranty repair/parts replacement several times and yet another part is waiting for me to make the appointment to be installed as I type. In contrast neither Hyundai required more than oil changes for the duration I owned them. The 03 had well over 10K miles when I traded it. Additionally our son has a 2000 Elantra right now that he is adding mileage at the rate of 100 miles per day to the 164K mile total (so far). I bought this car for him Dec 27 2003 and it had a little over 50K miles then. Since then repairs (except for tires..pads..rotors) has been an alternator, the battery (original) that was ruined by the bad alternator and one exhaust pipe coupler between the exhaust manifold down pipe and the remainder of the exhaust. Our daughter also has a 2003 Elantra with nearly 40 K miles and NO problems. All these examples are in stark contrast to the 10K mile 06 Civic. So I consider our first experiment with Honda a failure. Blame it on first year new model gremlins or whatever..except I hear of 2007 owners with many of the same problems we experienced.
Nope none of the Hyundai cars in my experience "broke all the time" nor did any bits and pieces fall off. In fact it (owning Hyundai products) was a far more satisfying owner experience than the one I am experiencing now. I am counting down the days left on our Honda 3 year warranty with trepidation.

stevecebu · September 2007

Nope none of the Hyundai cars in my experience "broke all the time" nor did any bits and pieces fall off. In fact it (owning Hyundai products) was a far more satisfying owner experience than the one I am experiencing now. I am counting down the days left on our Honda 3 year warranty with trepidation.

Ok just curious, I have found that no matter what I have no luck with Ford cars New or Used they just fall apart on me. Far too many issues over the years to list. Safe to say I don't buy Fords any more.
You might just have bad luck with Honda. I know it's a superstition but for me it' as real as anything else. I will never buy another Ford product again.
Honda was ok, boring but ok. That was 10 years ago tho.
Some makes just work and others don't.
It sounds like Hyundai works for you so I'd stick with it.
Honda might be ok for us we will have to see. The seats of the one I sat in here (outside the US) was like sitting on a park bench only less comfortable.
i'm hoping the seats in the US model will feel better.

sandman46 · September 2007

Steve, being a first time Civic owner with a great experience, love the car and would highly recommend it. So this is the other side of the coin. Mine's a '06 LX and I couldn't be happier! When I was looking to buy, this was the best for my needs eventhough I had a budget of about $23k to work with. Nothing has gone wrong, broken whatever and am a happy Honda owner.
So, everything one reads in these forums must be taken with a grain of salt. Some will love and some will hate certain models as evidenced by the last few posts just in this forum. Use what you learn here to help you make the best possible choice. Only a small fraction of the buying public posts in Edmunds, so please take that into consideration also. Remember also to look at sales volumes and things like JD Powers ratings and such also. Just a suggestion.
The anonymity of the internet is good and bad. For every pro there will be a con so keep that also in mind. Recommendations from friends and family who have real time experience with the models you like will be important to.
Good luck and have fun with this...buying a new car should be enjoyable!

The Sandman

stevecebu · September 2007

Good luck and have fun with this...buying a new car should be enjoyable!

Thanks the last 12 new cars I bought weren't much fun to buy tho. Heck I'm not even in the US and in less that 5 years I've bought 1 used car and 2 brand new ones. :surprise:
I just hat the dealer game that ALL car dealers seem to play, well all but one. and I bought the car from them with no drama. Mazda on the other hand was a LOT of drama.
I guarantee you tho that some people have no luck with certain brands of cars. For me it's Ford, anything Ford.
For this other guy it's Honda.
Honda makes a decent car, no idea if it's bland but either way my wife will not have my attitude about driving even tho she REALLY wants a Mini for herself.
We are going to buy a beater for RallyX events and the like so she can have fun that way and at Auto-X events as well.

My big drawback is that I am not currently in the US so it's tough to compare the Asian models to the US models.
I had a 1998 Honda Civic DX hatch that I had for 2 years and no problems with it except the horrible blandness of driving it everyday.
But since I am buying either a Mini Cooper S or a Mazdaspeed 3 for myself. My wife will have to make do with either the Civic LX, The Scion xD, or The Mazda 3.
The Fit just doesn't have enough oomph for the hills in the area we drive and carrying any kind of a load and other vehicles have fallen by the wayside for various reasons.
My wife went to driving school in a 10 year old Civic and she liked it. So we will see with the new model.
I would have bought an Accord diesel but that will have to wait until the Honda falls apart at the seams, which in New England weather is about 10-12 years. The chemical they put on the roads just destroys the body of the car.

Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k)

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