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Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k)

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    When you are ready to pay for my cars, and to guarantee the safety of my family and me when driving those cars, then you can put whatever emphasis you want on crash test results with respect to my cars. But it's going to be MY car, and it's MY family, so if I want to make crash test results a high priority buying criterion, that is what I'll do.

    Do you suppose there's a reason why automakers tout the crash test scores of their cars, when the scores are good? Maybe because they know, from their extensive marketing research, that many buyers place high importance on crash safety?

    As for now, I can't seriously consider one of the cars in this class that's high on my shopping list, the Elantra, because the IIHS side impact result is unknown. Same problem with the Optima, although it's not technically in this group (although by price it is).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    What are we all driving these days folks? iluv has a new Lancer. What have you got?
  • ellenocellenoc Member Posts: 25
    I have a new 2008 Honda Fit (purchased 11/19 now with 1,000 miles). Admittedly my needs are different than most people's. In 10 years and 170,000 my last car, a '97 Impreza wagon, never had a human sit on a back seat. I drive alone or with one other person and I need to carry my large dogs often. That means I need a wagon-type vehicle where the floor in the back area goes down flat. Most people I show dogs with have vans or SUVs but I've always been able to get everything I need into the small car and don't want to either pay for the bigger vehicle or get that kind of gas mileage. Of the vehicles I researched and listed to look at this time (Fit, Scion, Toyota Matrix, Pontiac Vibe, Mazda5, and Kia Rio5), the Fit was easily my choice. In fact I drove a Fit first and had to force myself to go look at the others. Never did look at the Kia, just realized I wouldn't feel confident about one.

    Didn't look at another Subaru because having the transmission blow up big time at 170,000 miles really soured me. I felt that car should have gone easily over 200,000 miles. Also the redesigned Impreza doesn't look to have enough room in the back and gets less mpg than the '97 which usually did about 30 mpg.

    I drove a Hyundai Elantra rental car while looking at new cars and it was a really nice car. Very quiet. For some reason the clarity and reach of the headlights really seemed outstanding. Just driving it I would have thought of it as mid-sized.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I drove a Hyundai Elantra rental car while looking at new cars and it was a really nice car. Very quiet. For some reason the clarity and reach of the headlights really seemed outstanding. Just driving it I would have thought of it as mid-sized.

    The Elantra is actually a midsized car, according to the EPA. The Sonata is a full-size!
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Didn't look at another Subaru because having the transmission blow up big time at 170,000 miles really soured me."

    If you're complaining about a transmission (automatic I assume) "blowing up" at 170,000 miles, then I suggest you start looking at cars with a stick shift. The truth of the matter is that any automatic transmission from any manufacturer in the world will be suspect after that many miles, and as such, requiring it to reach your personal threshold of 200,000 miles will be a crap-shoot at best.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Having personally seen two Hondas meet that threshold with ease (my granddad's '87 Civic 4-sp Auto with 255k which he sold, and my '96 Accord 4-sp Auto which I drove TODAY with 176,800 miles). We haven't kept our cars any longer than that.
  • ellenocellenoc Member Posts: 25
    "If you're complaining about a transmission (automatic I assume) "blowing up" at 170,000 miles, then I suggest you start looking at cars with a stick shift."

    No, the Subaru was manual transmission as all my cars have been. And since my '72 Chevy pickup went 300,000 miles without transmission problems and with me driving all those miles, I don't think it's the way I drive that caused the Impreza to go so soon. It went on a highway, thank goodness in stop and go traffic, and went so badly there were chunks of metal on the road and the drive shaft was also ruined.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    My daily driver was and still is a '04 Elantra GT hatchback. I really like it, and I would buy another one of this same generation in a minute if it were not for "poor" side crash protection per the IIHS tests. It's versatile, comfortable (perhaps the best driver's seat in its class), somewhat sporty (rally red with Euro-style black trim), and somewhat unique in that there aren't many fastback-style hatches out there anymore. And it gets decent fuel economy, with mid-sized (borderline) interior room in a compact package. I am not surprised that Edmunds.com named this generation of Elantra their "best bet" for used cars in this class. The thing is as loaded as they came back then and I got it for $13,200 + T&L, including 37,500 miles of free oil changes and some other free maintenance.

    The new Elantra is a nicer car in most respects (except that driver's seat) but good luck finding a fully loaded copy anywhere near $13k today. The price of progress I guess.

    By the end of next year I plan on turning over my GT to my son for school, and I'll be getting a new car (which will eventually go to my daughter). The Elantra Touring is my top choice within this class right now, pending full crash test results and a test drive. I've always liked the Mazda3i but it's never been tested with side airbags by the IIHS, so crash integrity is an unknown. The new 3i Touring Value Edition available this January looks interesting, however. The Mazda3 will likely be on its last year when I'm ready to buy. I'm looking below and above this class too. The 2009 Fit looks really good (and in fact I have my name on the wait list already), and the Versa plus the 2009 Optima and Sonata (mid-gen refresh) are possibilities also. Would like to keep the price under $16k OTD. That eliminates some good cars like the Civic, Accord, and maybe the 2009 Corolla (although I don't know yet how "good" it will be).
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    You blew up a manual transmission? How on earth did you do that? The only way I can imagine a manual transmission failing is if it somehow developed a leak around one of the seals and the lubricant leaked out. Prior to the failure did you notice any drops of oil on the ground under your car?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Well, I need to contrast your experience with that of the Hondas in my neighborhood. There are three Odysseys and three Accords sprinkled up and down our street. Each of the Oddys has consumed an automatic transmission before the 80,000 mile mark (one of them ate a second tranny at about 95,000 miles), and of the Accords, the two that were equipped with an automatic transmission needed new ones as well (even though one of the Accords was a 4 cylinder model that is supposed to be immune to the tranny failure problems). The lone Accord that hasn't had a tranny problem is a 5-Speed manual model.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • ellenocellenoc Member Posts: 25
    You blew up a manual transmission? How on earth did you do that?

    The car never leaked anything and it was serviced only days before. Since there was lots of pink fluid all over the road too it wasn't out of fluid. It was running fine right until it went except for a humming noise at high speed that no one else would admit they could hear. "It's got a lot of miles on it. Old cars get noisier. Sounds fine to me."
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sure, it's possible to "blow up" a manual transmission--or at least ruin the clutch. I found that out a few years ago when the clutch on my '01 Elantra failed at only about 45k. The dealer said the clutch had been "abused", probably several times, and the clutch plate broke. I was dumbfounded until my son and wife fessed up to abusing the clutch. So I won't be buying any more stick-shift cars until I know I'll be the only driver.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Ahh, let's not get Accords and Odysseys tangled up in this Economy Sedan discussion, okay?

    Civics are the appropriate Honda entry here.

    Thanks. :)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Tearing up or smoking a clutch isn't "blowing up a transmission" as clutches are wear items the same as brakes. The way the OP described the incident; there were tranny parts all over the road following a catastrophic transmission failure. A failure of that magnitude is WAAAAAY beyond a simple burned out clutch.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I was using the other Honda automatic transmissions as an analogy to suggest that just because one individual had gotten 200,000+ miles out of one, that doesn't mean that they'll all last that long.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I know. But I also know what comes next. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    This wasn't a "burned out" clutch. As I stated, it was a broken clutch. Maybe the broken parts were contained in the transmission housing instead of being all over the road, but it was beyond a burned-out clutch. Maybe the housings of those Hyundai manual trannies are tougher than others. ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Hehehe. Good save. :D

    I didn't intend to imply that all Honda trannys are better than others, but rather that it is possible to have 200k on an auto with no problems whatsoever. I forgot to mention my friend with a '94 Honda, well, we'll just say it has a 2.2L engine. He has 203k on it (it's been wrecked numerous times, but it keeps on ticking!).

    I'm just glad to see I woke the forum up!
  • drmbbdrmbb Member Posts: 80
    One of the trade associations (Automotive Tranny Rebuilders or some such org) estimated that 90% of the 12-13 million or so automatic tranny failures each year in the USA is simply from overheating due to old fluid.

    Simply remembering to service the auto trans fluid/filters and such at the recommended interval will go a very long way to having any auto trans last as long as the engine it's bolted to lasts. And if you routinely stress your auto trans (eg. towing, or lots of mountain driving) look into an aftermarket accessory cooler - it's heat that kills automatics, not mileage/use.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Absolutely!

    Maybe you can give us some tips as to how to be selected this time (my having had no success in the mid-sized sedans test drive last winter)? ;)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    We don't have any magic way in, I assure you. Just follow the link if you are interested.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    This seems like the best place to discuss this, since all folk here are into fuel efficiency!

    In my area, the price of gas has eclipsed $4.00/gal. $3.98 on Sunday, and now $4.05 today, these economy cars are looking more and more desirable. My wife is looking for replace here Subi Impreza, and my mind in more on fuel economy. Hers is stuck on AWD. I'm also not a fan of how Subies drive, heavy brakes, heavy steering, loud engine. Cars we added to the list are Honda Civic LX, Mazda3&6, Legacy, Forester. I have asked her to pick out cars she likes, and I filter out the unreliable ones. This is going to be fun!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    "Economy car" and AWD are a contradiction in terms, IMO. If you are looking for high FE, an AWD car or SUV is not the best way to go. Something in this class of sedans, e.g. Civic, Corolla, Elantra, Mazda3, or in the class below, e.g. Fit, Versa, Yaris, or a hybrid like the Prius is the best route.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    "Economy car" and AWD are a contradiction in terms, IMO.

    I am quite content with the 30mpg we are getting from our Legacy wagon. I appreciate how well it handles (much better than my Accord) and its responsiveness. Of course, they don't make it anymore as now the model they offer has some ridiculous "I wanna be an SUV" tire and wheel package that is both heavier and less responsive. Oh well, I've already got mine.

    Something in this class of sedans, e.g. Civic, Corolla, Elantra, Mazda3, or in the class below, e.g. Fit, Versa, Yaris, or a hybrid like the Prius is the best route.

    I don't know about that, my Accord is getting 30-34 mpg regularly. I think a C car like a Focus/Civic/Mazda3 would be fine as well. If you check out the "whats wrong with these subcompacts," there is a lot of debate over there on the merits of the smaller vehicles.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    All of the Subaru 2.5L non turbo engines are rates at 20/26 or 21/27 by the EPA. The Legacy is also obtainable for under $20,000. Personally, I don't want to spend much more then $16,000-$17,000. That leaves us with a new Civic, Mazda3 or Mazda6 (lot's of rebate $$ on Mazda6). We would look at the Legacy/Forester if it were pre-owned. I work for a Mazda/F+L+M/Subaru store, and the amount of used Subies at my disposal is just crazy. I can get a year old Legacy 2.5 w/ auto tranny and moon roof for around $14,500-$15,000.

    I'm more for economy, but, since all she has ever driven is AWD Subies, she feels "safe" driving them in winter. Here in CT we get decent winters, however, I have never had an issue driving a FWD car here. I really want a $17,000 30+ mpg new car. But, we will see what happens.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    '05 Legacy Review

    You are right, maybe it is the new rating vs the old but the mileage went down from then to now. Our wagon was just shy of 20k (it is the base model like in the article, a 2.5i stick) with just the stupid auto-dim mirror and the all season floor mats/cargo cover. For our situation, it was just the perfect car at the perfect time, although I do kind of wish we had found a way to step up to the Limited and gotten heated leather seats and the big sun roofs.

    I think where I blew it was getting the Accord EX instead of a Civic SI, a MazdaSpeed6, or just about anything with a pulse.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you are averaging 30 mpg in a Legacy and 30-34 mpg in an Accord, you must do a lot of highway driving. So you could probably average 40 mpg or so in a car like the Civic or Mazda3i. Which handle pretty darn well, btw. But if you're happy with 30 mpg, that's what counts.

    I've always liked small cars and like the idea of driving the smallest car that meets my needs. So the 2009 Fit, for example, is looking pretty good to me. Not everyone's cup of tea, I know, but I love the smart, efficient packaging of the thing. Also pretty darn easy to park just about anywhere. But I could live with a compact also; my top choice there for purchase later this year is the Elantra Touring. The 2009 Rabbit 2-door is looking good too with its standard ESP, but FE isn't that good for a small car.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I've always liked small cars and like the idea of driving the smallest car that meets my needs.

    I think that is a good goal and subscribe somewhat to that as well, the Accord was ~$2500 cheaper than the Civic SI at the time, and can better hold the monster-sized child seat.

    So the 2009 Fit, for example, is looking pretty good to me. Not everyone's cup of tea, I know, but I love the smart, efficient packaging of the thing. Also pretty darn easy to park just about anywhere. But I could live with a compact also; my top choice there for purchase later this year is the Elantra Touring. The 2009 Rabbit 2-door is looking good too with its standard ESP, but FE isn't that good for a small car

    I can't get passed the styling on the Fit, it just doesn't appeal to me, and the FE doesn't seem good enough to offset the size and cost. I also think I am lucky I live in a place where parking isn't as critical.

    I think the Elantra offers a good value. I like the warranty and as long as you are buying it to run into the ground, resale value is much less of an issue. I like the VW because its so fun to drive, but part of the relationship with the car seems to be a relationship with the VW service department, so I don't know if I can handle that.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    If you check out the "whats wrong with these subcompacts," there is a lot of debate over there on the merits of the smaller vehicles.

    It's valid here too, comparing compacts and subcompacts. Basically, the subcompacts have very little MPG advantage, despite smaller engines and lower weight. A Fit and an Elantra get the same highway MPG per the EPA, for example.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    So the 2009 Fit, for example, is looking pretty good to me. Not everyone's cup of tea, I know, but I love the smart, efficient packaging of the thing. Also pretty darn easy to park just about anywhere. But I could live with a compact also; my top choice there for purchase later this year is the Elantra Touring.

    Ahh, a fellow hatch lover! Those are the main two I'm looking at as well, though I might also consider a Civic if I want to lose the hatch (wish it still had one)...don't like the 1.8 Matrix.

    What I'd like to know is what's taking Nissan so long to put VSC on the Versa.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Have you had a bad experience with VW's service? Have you tried more than one dealer? There's a lot of variation across dealers I've found.

    The Rabbit itself is proving to be pretty reliable, at least per the CR members' survey. The Rabbit is now CR's top choice for small hatches. And for 2009 VW is adding 3 years' free maintenance--which isn't all that much really, mostly a few oil changes, but every bit helps. The only major downside for me on the Rabbit is its FE. Since the base 2 door with ESP and AT will cost more than the base Fit or Elantra Touring (or SE), and have higher operating costs because of the lower FE, that will be tough for me to justify. And I much prefer a 4-door (or 5-door) car; the 4-door Rabbit is pretty pricey for this class.
  • sharpedgeshurtsharpedgeshurt Member Posts: 28
    Hey Backy,

    I've had my 2007 Rabbit for almost a year. I've gone to the dealership for all of my work, and the service has always been good. It's actually improved since I purcahsed my car, and the dealer and Volkswagen corporate always contact me after service to ask me if I was satisfied or not.
    One thing I do is stick strictly to the maintenance guide provided in my manual, instead of the dealers recommendations.

    This means only bringing my car in every 10,000 miles after the 5,000 and 10,000 mile checkup. The dealer recommends every 5,000 miles, but with synthetic oil, it's only necessary to change out ever 10,000 or six months.

    My 5,000 and 10,000 mile service were both around $100-$120. I skipped the 15,000 mile service, and brought it in at 20,000 miles for about $330 including an upgraded carwash, and some mat work (my floormat clips were not compatible with myincluded floormats). I was only charged for the clips and not labor for that work, and they were pretty friendly about it, but did not tell me I was going to be charged for the clips up front.

    I just check my fluid levels every now and then to make sure I'm not low on anything. I figure they only want my car in more often to get more $$$, and I'm pretty confident that the included owners manual recommendations are just fine, and saving me a few hundred dollars a year.

    The '09 warranty still isn't "all inclusive" for the work and it's actually a shorter warranty than the '07 and '08 models which have a 50,000 mile 5 year warranty.
    This might be a good thing, it might not. We'll see I guess.

    Overall I'm extremely happy with this car. It looks great, it drives great (too smooth for some with the electromechanical steering) It's comfortable, solid and has plenty of room for all my storage with seats that go nearly flat (including the front passanger seat!) there are very few cons in owning this vehicle. One is the fuel economy (compared to Honda Fit, 2006 and earlier Scion XB, and Scion XD) But the '08 has 170hp compared to my 150hp and equivalent MPG. And VW MKV is a huge improvement in fuel economy over MKIV and earlier regular gas VW engines. Expect to get about 24mpg. One other "problem" is the air vents in the car You can't have air going through the top and btotom (foot) vents at the same time. The vents are a bit high, and it takes a while to get the best seat/vent position for driving with the air conditiong on hot summer days. Last but not least, the adjustment knob for the passenter seat is a little bit of a pain you have to rotate a knob to recline, raise the seat. These are all pretty nit-picky complaints in my book, and I hardly feel as if I made a compromise in purchasing this car. As fuel prices go up, I may feel differently, but so far; no regrets, and I feel that it was hardly a trade off. (The only other 3 cars I considered were 2006 Scion XBs which were no longer available new, Honda fit which had an engine that was tooooo small and loud at higher speeds to feel appropriate for such a space efficient car, and the Mazda 3 five door which didn't have great maintenance reputation, and was more expensive out the door for similar features) Besides, a lot of what I see on the road around me in Southern California are big trucks, and suped up luxury cars: I know I'm not getting hit as hard as some.

    Anyway, I hope this info helps.

    -Abel
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I heard that the VW warranty for 2009 is the same as for 2008, but the 3 years of free maintenance has been added for 2009. Have you heard differently?

    It looks like the Rabbit is expensive to service (e.g. $100 for a 5k service, vs. the $25 or so I am used to paying for other cars) so I guess the 3 years of free service is a pretty good deal after all.
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    Seems that we'll be in the market for 2 small cars come the fall. So far on the list are: the Elantra (the current fav), Versa, Sentra, Civic, 3, Spectra, Focus, Corolla and the Accent. Am having the wife take the girls to test drive these over the next few months to decide. Am pushing for them to get the same cars, as we might be able to get a little better deal by buying both at the same time. Both will be cash deals unless the financing rates will be ridiculously low. Luckily, we've got the time to do the research and be able to get them a car that fits.
    If they had their way, they'd be getting small BMW's or the IS250. Funny how they both have expensive tastes in cars and the wife and I have driven small econoboxes since they were small. Guess our frugalness and desire for excellent mileage has not been passed on. But hey, they are 23 & 21 now and like the finer things in life. But once they have to pay all their expenses for these new "toys", I think they'll be happy with our insistence for smaller econoboxs.

    The Sandman :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Since these are for your girls to drive, may I suggest steering clear of the Accent? It has poor crash test scores--only Acceptable on the IIHS frontal test, and Poor on the IIHS side test. I think (?) all the other cars you are looking at got a Good on the frontal test, and some got Good on the side test also--Civic and Versa for sure; several haven't had the IIHS side test yet. The 3 was tested only w/o side bags (Poor), so it would likely do better with side bags. Also the Accent is smaller than the other cars--interior-wise it's about the same as the Civic, but the Civic is a larger and more refined car (as you know).

    How about the Lancer and Rabbit? Also if you wait until fall, the larger-for-2009 Fit will be out. Maybe your girls will think it's cute. :)
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    The girls think the Fit is a "cute ute" actually and will be on the list. Talking with them at dinner earlier, the Accent was voted out and since Mom has the 3 already, that's a low choice on the totem pole already. I'm pushing for the Versa or the Elantra myself. The Rabbit is off the list for personal reasons and I still don't trust VW's reliability.
    Still, plenty of good candidates to choose from. Luckily, they both have about $16k put away after their college funds for their purchase. Mom, being a CPA, has wisely invested their college funds knowing that this day would come and they'd both need cars for their 1st jobs. We still have a 20 year old son who will be a junior this fall that we'll have to do the same thing with right about the time I retire. Kids!
    But it will be fun for me to try out their final picks, as I don't want to influence them that much. I did reserve the right to veto any car which I feel isn't a good fit for whatever reason and they are in agreement since they both know virtually nothing about cars.

    The Sandman :)

    (P.S. - The Lancer is nice but the mileage figures are nothing to write home about.)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    This sounds great but two little words: grad school. :)
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    The oldest finishes grad school in December, the 2nd graduates college in December and has accepted a 6 month internship at Epcot in Disney World. Then either grad school or if she gets offered employment by Disney...she'd grab it.
    So, they both will need cars, as we live in Coral Springs, Florida, outside of Ft. Lauderdale and Epcot is in Orlando.

    The Sandman :)
  • sharon22sharon22 Member Posts: 28
    Don't know if this is the "right" forum to address my question, but I'd appreciate a bit of advice. My '05 Subaru Outback just isn't cutting it at 22 mpg so I'm looking for a more fuel efficient vehicle. I'm "on the list" for an '08 Prius w/pkg 2; however, I'm trying to figure out if I trully NEED it. Since getting on the waiting list for the Prius, I've driven the Yaris (sedan and hatchback) and really liked it. I live only 10 miles from work, don't drive highway often, take about one "road-trip" a year and want reliability, low cost to own and will drive this new car until the wheels fall off. Is the extra money for the Prius really worth it? When I add the options I want on the Yaris, it's about $10,000 difference between it and the Prius. That's a lot of fuel!
    I'm second-guessing my decision to be placed on a waiting list even though I think the Prius is an excellent car and as "green" as you can get. I want to leave as little a carbon foot-print as I can, BUT . . . Any advice?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I went through this same analysis four years ago. I ordered a 2004 Prius in November 2003. It was going to replace a Grand Caravan--wow, big gas savings there, right? The lease ran out on the van in May 2004. No problem, said the dealer, the Prius would be in long before then. But then allocations changed and March turned into July. So I had to look at options. I really wanted a small 5-door hatch so I looked at cars like the Malibu Maxx, Mazda6i, Matrix, and Elantra GT. Like you, I don't drive that much--less than 10k miles a year. I found out I could get an Elantra loaded with every option including leather and moonroof for $13,200. The Prius would have been about $9000 more, for a basic model with SABs and mats as the only options (SABs were optional back then). The Elantra is just about the same size as the Prius, with a mid-sized interior and good cargo space in back. I ran the numbers based on an average 25 mpg on the Elantra (conservatively low I've found) and 50 mpg on the Prius (a litte generous perhaps). Based on 10k miles a year and gas at $4.00 a gallon (which I thought was conservatively high 4 years ago!), it would take over 11 years to make up the up-front price difference based on gas savings. And that doesn't account for investing the $9000, which I could probably double in those 11 years. After 11 years, the Elantra wouldn't be worth much but how much would the Prius have depreciated--and would it need a new battery pack by then?

    Plugging a Yaris into the math would be different, as the Yaris gets better FE than the Elantra.

    Anyway, I went with the Elantra and have been happy with that decision. But I am keeping my eyes on the 2011 Prius when we get rid of the van in 3 years. :)
  • sandman46sandman46 Member Posts: 1,798
    I'd also check out the Versa and possibly the Aveo also depending on how much $ you're looking to spend. Only drive about 7.5k miles here and am very happy with my '06 Civic LX...perfect choice for my driving tastes. Thought about the prius or the Civic Hybrid for like 2 minutes but decided with the amount of miles I drive per year, the extra upfront cost didn't justify the car.
    So many feul efficient econocars out there now to choose from. These manufacture's are making a killing with high petrol prices.
    Let us know what you decide.

    The Sandman :)
  • no_oneno_one Member Posts: 29
    May I suggest also considering at the Saturn Astra? It's similar to the Rabbit, but gets better fuel economy. It also has been around for three years in Europe, where it has received rave reviews.... Great handling, comfortable, plenty of space.

    However, while it fits in your price range, your daughters may object to the fact it currently has no aux input jack.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    Saturn Astra, probably the best all around car in the compact class. The VW Rabbit, neat car, fun to drive, but too much money and low mpg.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Rabbit 3-door costs less than the Astra 3-door, and the Rabbit 5-door is only about $800 more than the Astra XE 5-door. The Astra does get 2-3 mpg more than the Rabbit, but the Rabbit has a lot more power. The Astra doesn't get as good FE as some other compacts with similar or more power, e.g. Civic, Corolla, Elantra, Focus, and Sentra. For a fun to drive compact with good FE, I'd take the Mazda3i or Civic over the Astra, or if it had to be a hatch, the Fit.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Saturn Astra, probably the best all around car in the compact class. The VW Rabbit, neat car, fun to drive, but too much money and low mpg."

    Ya lost me with that comment. I've recently driven both the Astra and the Rabbit, and the $16,000 Bunny completely destroyed the Astra in every objective and subjective measure except fuel economy, and even then the difference isn't all that great. Personally I could be quite happy driving the Rabbit for a couple of years, the Astra not so much.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • no_oneno_one Member Posts: 29
    The Astra has more than adequate power with the 5-speed (can't speak to the automatic, and VW makes the world's most amazing automatic), but yes, the rabbit is clearly superior in this area. Don't know why anyone minds an extra 0.5 seconds from 0-60, though personally.

    However, the fuel economy of the Astra has been significantly better than EPA in my own experience (last tank was 36.2 mpg), whereas the Rabbit has been fairly comparable to the EPA numbers under real world conditions, from what I have read in various forums. This was a major selling point for me (I'm an astra owner, can you tell?).

    Also, the Fit is in a different class. I test drove one and found it woefully adequate. It's good basic transportation, and gets great fuel economy, but it doesn't border on luxury like the Astra or Rabbit does, nor is it as agile.

    Anyway, all the cars you mention are decent cars, and have various pros and cons, which I need not go into. All I am saying is that if one is looking at cars in the $16k-20k range, the Astra deserves some consideration.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I have yet to hear anything positve about the 1.8L powertrain in the Astra. What I have read says that the engine needs to rev to get moving, but acts as if it hates to rev. I can't say for sure how true this is; just as you can't say you wouldn't get above EPA numbers in a Rabbit, either.

    Personally, neither would be on my list (I'm scared of VW reliability, and if I wanted a hatch, the Versa offers the best interior room, and at 6'5" that matters a LOT to me!). For $16-$18k, you get a VERY well-equipped hatch with the Versa.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    build quality/reliability department. That has been the knock on them for quite some time. I haven't really inquired in to that subject for a while so maybe someone could enlighten us all on that. I will always remember a certain VW in our family, my Dad's baby blue '66 Fastback. A nice little car and the one I learned to drive stick in. A 4-speed if memory serves me correctly.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I agree the Astra deserves some consideration. I just don't agree it's the best car in the compact class.

    My own experience with the Fit is that it is a nimble, fun to drive car. It certainly isn't a luxury car, but for 2009 it will have VSC and factory nav available, plus a roomier and more refined interior and more power. It does have some upscale features e.g. paddle-shifting automatic that neither the Rabbit nor Astra offers. Also I don't think the Rabbit or Astra offer factory nav, do they? And of course the Fit has those "magic seats."
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