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Comments
I'm not being, as you say, rude. And, if I was perceived as being rude, then please accept my sincerest apology. I'm sure that AHFC is willing to waive the security deposit but that was never the issue. The issue was whether or not they have a security deposit and, according to the Ad, they do indeed. At least, the Ad leads one to believe that they do. Another issue dealt with the acquisition fee. The Ad IMPLIES that it's $270 not $595 and I would expect them to honor it.
From my perspective, the Ad is NOT mistaken. It means EXACTLY what it says whether intended or unintended. It's hard to argue with rhetoric. And, yes, a misrepresentation can be intentional or unintentional and can be the result of a mistake. Therefore, a mistake can misrepresent the true facts whether intended or unintended.
I have no reason to believe that AHFC would intentionally mislead anyone. If, in fact, they didn't make a mistake, then the acq. fee is something different than $595. The only way the acq. fee can be $595 is for the words "security deposit" to be REMOVED FROM THE RELEVANT PORTION OF THE AD which is quite apart different than waiving it altogether.
2499 = 309 + 595 + 1595
That's like AHFC saying.... whoops, in order to collect the $595 acq fee, we'll just have to waive the sec. dep. so that the above equation is preserved. I say... oh no, I'll pay the sec dep plus a $270 acquisition fee as the Ad implies or suggests; mistaken or otherwise.
It's just not good business to craft an Ad and then claim... well, it's not a contract and so we're not liable for whatever we say in an Ad. That's baloney.
John
PS: Regarding my question concerning whether Walt worked for Honda/Acura. I meant nothing by it, so please, don't draw falacious inferences or erroneous conclusions. YOU don't know me so don't pretend that you do. "WE ALL know what you meant"???... That's very presumptuous. You have no clue what was on my mind and neither does anyone else. Attorneys often make something out of nothing and create problems where there aren't any. And, as for doing work for free, I do it quite often and NEVER complain. I've been a big help to an awful lot of people in these forums that includes emailing articles I've written and I've been receptive to those wishing to send me personal emails. Read my posts and you can see for yourself.
I in no way intend to start a flame war, and my intent is not to insult you. I have read your other posts and you clearly have a full understanding of statistics. However, you are making statements about the law that are not fully correct, probably similarly to what I would do if I started talking about statistics.
Misrepresentation generally...
First, a false statement is only one requirement to legally prove misrepresentation. Second, an unintentional mistake is generally not actionable in the absence of negligence.
Third, and this is the funny one, misrepresentation requires justifiable reliance on the person being deceived. As such, John/delta and I, and anyone else reading this thread, should already be aware that the ad has a "false" statement, and therefore we cannot reasonably rely on the ad. Sometimes being smart can hurt you.
Whether the ad is false...
I have to disagree here as well because of a reasonable, but perhaps incorrect, assumption you are making. John, you have assumed a 325 security deposit. Logical, yes. But legally binding, no. A one month security deposit is simply the industry convention, not a legal requirement. AHFC could simply turn to you and say that the security deposit is $1 and the bank fee is $594. There is no requirement that they charge a full month deposit. Furthermore, if they waive the deposit, thus a $0 deposit, then the ad is still true... the 2499 includes the required security deposit.
Ahhh, you might say, but the ad is still misleading... but, none of us know the breakdown of the 2499 until you get into the dealership. The problem is that you know you don't know the breakdown, thus it will be hard to prove that you were mislead. Your computations that back into the number are logical for sure, but legal proof of zippo, unfortunately.
The biggest mistake people make, especially math/science types (myself included before law school), about the law is assuming that it is logical. How Stupid of you! (just teasing ) So, your statement, "From my perspective, the Ad is NOT mistaken. It means EXACTLY what it says whether intended or unintended. It's hard to argue with rhetoric." Well, not for a lawyer. You see, lawyers make the law illogical so we can charge more money. (I hope I’m teasing??? :confuse: )
Even if we were to call the ad a legally binding offer, the second you start to negotiate price or any other term, all bets are off. Legally, at that point, you are making a counteroffer. Thus, even if your $275 bank fee was legally correct, the dealership/AHFC is under no obligation to transfer that fee to a different deal for the car at a lower price. You'd be better off negotiating 1000+ off the price and paying the full bank fee anyway...
...
John/delta, on a personal note...
"Regarding my question concerning whether Walt worked for Honda/Acura. I meant nothing by it, so please, don't draw falacious inferences or erroneous conclusions. YOU don't know me so don't pretend that you do. ... You have no clue what was on my mind and neither does anyone else. "
It has nothing to do with whether I know you, or whether you actually meant what was implied. It is the reasonable and direct inference people will draw when one makes a statement like that. Especially when dispensing specialized knowledge, it is easy to come across as arrogant/rude on the internet when we cannot hear the tone of people's voices. I myself have been guilty of it on occasion.
So, you didn't mean it that way, which is excellent. But when a recipient makes natural inferences on what appears on its face to be an aggressive statement, it is not the fault of the recipient. Just put a smiley on the end of a question like that and we'll all know you're kidding next time... oh, and btw, not once did I question your help to others... I simply asked that you not attack others that also help.
-apz4 :shades:
My only issue is that it's better to concentrate on what deal can actually be achieved, than to focus on the advertising. Not many of us could marshal the forces needed to hold a manufacturer to their advertising claims, even if we were attorneys. An ambiguous advertisement, with qualifiers in the fine print, at that.
My attempt to clarify the ad was based on what I know about Acura/Honda leases.
I considered the question about my allegiance to Honda/Acura to be humorous. After all, it says right at the top of the page: Consumer Driven
No harm done.. anyway, this isn't my discussion, it belongs to Car_man..
regards,
kyfdx
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Your points are well taken. I'm not interested in litigation or legalities. I'm only interested in the reasonable man interpretation of what the Ad actually states. I won't debate this point any further other than to say let's just agree to disagree. Besides, I think it's rather petty and any concerns can be addressed with AHFC or the dealership. I'm reasonably confident that fair and honest treatment will prevail.
I really appreciate your time taken to explain this issue from the legal perspective. I'm not an attorney but I have worked with them in the past as a certified expert witness in matters regarding the FRBB's Reg. M and Reg. Z.
I do believe that lease rates (i.e., money factors, interest rates) should be disclosed. I'm not advocating the disclosure of an APR because it's usefulness is limited to determining outstanding lease balances in those instasnces where the actuarial or constant yield method is used. I'm also in favor of standardizing lease payment calculations. GMAC, for instance, does something very odd. They discount the residual one month nearer to the present and use the resulting "adjusted residual" to compute the lease payment. Ford Motor credit used to add 0.0011 to the capcost annuity factor to account for an acquisition fee. This meant that consumers would pay an additional $1.10 each month for every $1,000 of capitalized cost. Ford no longer does this. Instead, they charge a $595 acq. fee.
Anyway, thanks for your comments and I'll try to watch what I say and how I say it.
Best,
John
Medina, Ohio
I'm glad we could resolve it. I understand what you're saying from a business perspective, and I agree. I just didn't want a reader here to misunderstand what you were saying and think they could take an aggressive legal stance with the dealership. From a business perspective, you're right, these ads are ridiculous. They always leave out a key piece of information or two in order to obfuscate the money factor and/or the residual.
"I do believe that lease rates (i.e., money factors, interest rates) should be disclosed. "
I couldn't agree more.
I think the other problem with leasing is that the salespeople typically (in my experience) have no clue what is going on with the numbers. It's rare that you find one that does. I almost always end up dealing with the finance manager, cause they're the only one at the dealership who truly understands leasing. In fact, the only dealership I've been to where the salespeople actually run the lease numbers is at BMW. And I'm not sure if that is a BMW thing, or just my dealership.
"I'm also in favor of standardizing lease payment calculations. "
Yes, or at least requiring that they be more transparent and fully explained. The other problem is taxes. The taxation of leases varies from straight forward, to complex, to IMO obscene (Illinois). I wish the fed would encourage the states to standardize their taxing practices because of the burden it places on interstate commerce in the buying/selling of lease rights.
Now, we just need a lobbyist as powerful as the entire automotive industry...
I'm with you stride for stride. It's funny that you mention that you'll only deal with the finance manager. I, too, am the same way. I'll call the F&I person and request lease info (money factor, residual factor, acq. fee, etc) and then I'll create a one page lease proposal. Then, I'll FAX/email it to him or her. I have found that this has saved me lots of time, money, and aggravation.
Once, I FAXED a sign and drive proposal and all the F&I guy could do was confirm my numbers. He said his software was not able to compute payments where the capitalized first payment exactly matched the remaining payments. He completed the lease agreement with the numbers from my proposal. When I arrived, I signed the papers and spent no more than 35 minutes at the dealership. Like you, I refuse to deal with sales people because they simply have no clue what a lease entails. Sales people will waste your time if you let them. So many of them are nothing more than order takers. Want fries with that?
At any rate, I don't think we're going to solve these problems anytime soon. The best we can do is protect ourselves by being armed with knowledge because Knowledge = Power.
Have a great day my good friend.
John
I apologize for having asked the question. I didn't intend to be insulting or offensive. You've done an outstanding job in these forums and deserve much more respect. I'm glad you could see the humor.
Best,
John
Acura introduced a new national special lease program on the 2008 TSX, featuring a buy rate lease money factor of .00185 for consumers who qualify for its "Super Preferred" credit tier.
Car_man
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You are right, the best way to get a good deal on a leased vehicle is to negotiate as low a selling price as possible. Once you arrive at a price that you are comfortable with, have the dealer that gives it to you calculate your lease payment using the buy rate lease money factor for the model that you want.
Consumers can usually negotiate better deals on their own than the ones that are featured in manufacturers' advertised leases.
Car_man
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2k out of pocket
15k miles @ 36 months
352 a month.
Superpreferred Rate and 61% residual, my math says i bought the car for about 500 over invoice which is ok with me being it was an 08 and they had many 07's still available. I take delivery today, I cant wait!
My current lease is getting over end of September. Ideally, I would like to wait till the lease is almost over (why pay for 2 cars?). But if historically, Acura does not have any good lease deals in September, then I might lease the new one a bit early.
TIA for any help.
12,000 Miles
$2700 down (incl 1st pmt)
$371.62 a month (FL TAX included)
I think it may be around 350 before tax.
They also threw in road hazard(which I can cancel within 30 days or something and get $377 cash back), window tint, and I got a protection package (cargo tray, wheel locks, mud guards, etc).
What do you all think? The guy was acting like he was giving it away... of course. Just wandering how much BS he was actually feeding me. I always like to think I get the best deal... I had to work pretty hard to get this price, so I hope it was worth it.
P.S.
I picked up the car tonight and loooved it. I can't wait until the tint seals and I can go for a nice drive.
Thanks!!
I am moving back East and have to get rid of my 2007 TSX lease. Anyone know the easiest process? Insights, anything??
Would be extremely grateful for any info.
thanks!
Please let me know how this sounds for a 2008 Acura TSX lease, 5 speed automatic, no navi, in New Jersey:
Selling price = $26,586
Money factor = .001850 (salesman said this was "Tier 1")
Residual = 63%
Down payment = $629 (includes first month and DMV plates)
Term = 36 months
Miles = 12k
Total Payments (includes all else rolled in) = $366/month
Salesman is also offering all of the above, but instead, $1410 down (bank fee, DMV, Doc fees, and first month) for $340/month, which includes tax.
How do these lease deals sound? Do you think I can do better? Thanks.
TrickyDick
What does this mean in terms of negotiating a lease?
THANKS.
With zero down, you should be able to get it down to ~$340/month depending on the sales tax.
Never put money down on a lease.
You should pay (bank fee/doc fee) + DMV + first month only or roll in the bank fee and doc fee into the adjusted cap cost.
According to another dealer I contacted with a request to beat those numbers, those figures are in line with what the market is offering in NJ, which is about $750 over dealer invoice. I believe the NJ sales tax is 7%.
Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.
TrickyDick
Glacier Blue with Quartz interior
10,000 Miles
$2499 down (incl 1st pmt)
$303.09 a month (LA county TAX included, 8.25%)
I got wheel locks, mud guards for free
What do you all think? I got this deal after emailing several dealers in LA and orange county.
I am new to the leasing game and am having trouble running the numbers. I live in MD where sales tax is calc on the entire vehicle not just the lease payments. Does anyone have a good calc program or formula chart that might help? The one on edmunds seems to give me much higher numbers than what the dealers give me. Thanks!
MF is now .00152 and residual is 61%
Lease is 36 months w/ 12k mi/yr.
$0 down and $389/month (that's all - 36 pmts of $389)
Includes accessories package - wheel locks, splash guards and trunk tray.
If they don't or you can't find anyone who is willing to assume your lease, you will have to purchase the vehicle that you are currently leasing from the bank that you are leasing it through and try to sell it or trade it in. It often turns out that it costs more to do so than your vehicle is worth on the open market. Furthermore, many banks expect consumers who end their leases early to still make all, or at least the depreciation portion of their remaining lease payments. As you can see, this can get very expensive.
You can determine approximately how much it will cost you to get out of your current lease by comparing its purchase price to its value on the open market at this time. You should place a call to the bank that you are leasing your vehicle through to find out its exact price. Once you know exactly how much money it is going to cost you to buy your leased vehicle you need to compare it to its current value on the open market. You can find out approximately what your vehicle is worth by looking up its Edmunds.com True Market Value in the Used Vehicle Pricing section of this site. You also may want to stop by the following discussion: "Real-World Trade-In Values". Don't forget to check to see if you are still on the hook for your remaining lease payments. The difference between your leased vehicle's current value and how much it will cost you to buy it plus any remaining lease payments that you are obligated to pay will equal the cost of getting out of your lease right now.
Unfortunately, it could end up being very expensive to get out of your TL lease well before its scheduled end date.
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When negotiating your lease on this car, make sure to take advantage of the $1,500 dealer cash that is currently available on it. This cash will help you to negotiate an attractive capitalized cost for your lease.
Car_man
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$26,631.00 for the TSX, $58.48 for the title transfer, $1,868.26 for the tax, $15.00 for the county fee and $143.00 for new plates. This totals $28,715.74 out the door.
(Note this is IL, so tax is included up front.)
Using a 36mo X 15K mile term of .00152 and 61%, I come up with a monthly payment of $309.
First of all, did I do the math right?
Second, does this seem like a good deal?
Thanks.
I'm new to leasing and am trying hard not to be taken for a ride by some "creative" car dealership in NNJ area! Can you please tell us which dealership you got your car from? I'm thinking of getting mine (08 TSX auto w/o navi, 36 months, 12K/yr) from Park Avenue Acura ... only because it's closest to my home base.
Thanks in advance